CFI pay, FYI

[gatt[_3_]]

I just scoped out a local FBO hiring CFIs (they went from a minimum of
100 hrs experience and CFII last September to hiring brand-new CFIs in
January.)

They charge $44/hr for ground or air instruction and the instructor base
pay is $16 per billed hour.

Free unlimited simulator time, free CFII ground and sim training, and
after four months instructors get a "very low rate" on helicopter training.

Doesn't mention health insurance. After teaching 250 hours,
instructors get $17/hr. with a $3/hr bonus for "advanced instruction."

Meanwhile they can't keep experienced instructors in the shop. Gee, I
wonder why. The only problem is, to teach at the local community
colleges, you have to be an employee of the FBO.

-c

[Robert M. Gary]

On May 9, 2:36*pm, gatt > wrote:
> I just scoped out a local FBO hiring CFIs (they went from a minimum of
> 100 hrs experience and CFII last September to hiring brand-new CFIs in
> January.)
>
> They charge $44/hr for ground or air instruction and the instructor base
> pay is $16 per billed hour.
>
> Free unlimited simulator time, free CFII ground and sim training, and
> after four months instructors get a "very low rate" on helicopter training..
>
> Doesn't mention health insurance. * After teaching 250 hours,
> instructors get $17/hr. with a $3/hr bonus for "advanced instruction."
>
> Meanwhile they can't keep experienced instructors in the shop. *Gee, I
> wonder why. *The only problem is, to teach at the local community
> colleges, you have to be an employee of the FBO.
>
> -c

Sounds about right. I assume you also have to provide your own
liability insurance, right? The fact is that CFIs are willing to work
for that or they wouldn't bother hiring.

-Robert

[gatt[_3_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Sounds about right. I assume you also have to provide your own
> liability insurance, right? The fact is that CFIs are willing to work
> for that or they wouldn't bother hiring.

I scoped the place out when I turned in my AGI paperwork at the FSDO
office yesterday. The "pilot lounge" was filled with idle
twenty-something CFIs...you can tell the CFIs by the white shirts and
epaulets and/or khaki jump suits. Looks cool, and very professional,
but none of 'em were making money at the time.

The FBO I fly out of is all independent contractors and two or three
Gold Seal regulars. The only real problem is that there's only one 152,
three 172s, an Arrow and a twin. Great little operation but you have to
hustle up your own business. I don't know how much of the $40/hr the
instructors keep, but, knowing the owner I suspect it's probably at
least $30.

My problem is total distrust of large companies. In fact, I don't like
working for other people period. Maybe I should buy my own trainer. :>

-c

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2008-05-09 16:17:05 -0700, gatt > said:

> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>> Sounds about right. I assume you also have to provide your own
>> liability insurance, right? The fact is that CFIs are willing to work
>> for that or they wouldn't bother hiring.
>
> I scoped the place out when I turned in my AGI paperwork at the FSDO
> office yesterday. The "pilot lounge" was filled with idle
> twenty-something CFIs...you can tell the CFIs by the white shirts and
> epaulets and/or khaki jump suits. Looks cool, and very professional,
> but none of 'em were making money at the time.
>
> The FBO I fly out of is all independent contractors and two or three
> Gold Seal regulars. The only real problem is that there's only one
> 152, three 172s, an Arrow and a twin. Great little operation but you
> have to hustle up your own business. I don't know how much of the
> $40/hr the instructors keep, but, knowing the owner I suspect it's
> probably at least $30.
>
> My problem is total distrust of large companies. In fact, I don't like
> working for other people period. Maybe I should buy my own trainer. :>
>
> -c

Good luck with getting insurance on that.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Maxwell[_2_]]

"gatt" > wrote in message
. ..
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>> Sounds about right. I assume you also have to provide your own
>> liability insurance, right? The fact is that CFIs are willing to work
>> for that or they wouldn't bother hiring.
>
> I scoped the place out when I turned in my AGI paperwork at the FSDO
> office yesterday. The "pilot lounge" was filled with idle
> twenty-something CFIs...you can tell the CFIs by the white shirts and
> epaulets and/or khaki jump suits. Looks cool, and very professional, but
> none of 'em were making money at the time.
>
> The FBO I fly out of is all independent contractors and two or three Gold
> Seal regulars. The only real problem is that there's only one 152, three
> 172s, an Arrow and a twin. Great little operation but you have to hustle
> up your own business. I don't know how much of the $40/hr the instructors
> keep, but, knowing the owner I suspect it's probably at least $30.
>
> My problem is total distrust of large companies. In fact, I don't like
> working for other people period. Maybe I should buy my own trainer. :>
>
> -c

If you are serious, be sure to check you local airport policies first.

Many airports no longer allow free lance instruction.

[Andrew Sarangan]

On May 10, 9:54 am, "Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote:
> "gatt" > wrote in message
>

>
> If you are serious, be sure to check you local airport policies first.
>
> Many airports no longer allow free lance instruction.

How is that possible? If I am using my own home office to meet and
greet the student, and then drive to the airport and go flying, what
rules would that violate?

I can see a point if you are using the FBO lounge for flight
instruction.

[[email protected]]

On May 9, 4:17 pm, gatt > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
> > Sounds about right. I assume you also have to provide your own
> > liability insurance, right? The fact is that CFIs are willing to work
> > for that or they wouldn't bother hiring.
>
> I scoped the place out when I turned in my AGI paperwork at the FSDO
> office yesterday. The "pilot lounge" was filled with idle
> twenty-something CFIs...you can tell the CFIs by the white shirts and
> epaulets and/or khaki jump suits. Looks cool, and very professional,
> but none of 'em were making money at the time.
>

I'm neither a 20-something nor a CFI, but if they're getting some
flight time, they may not care how low the pay is. Are they just
idling their days away with dwindling bank accounts or are they
actually getting the hours needed for that first right seat in a
commuter job? What other choice to they have, anyhow? It doesn't seem
that there is a huge number of jobs for 300 hour pilots.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in
:

>
> "gatt" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>>
>>> Sounds about right. I assume you also have to provide your own
>>> liability insurance, right? The fact is that CFIs are willing to
>>> work for that or they wouldn't bother hiring.
>>
>> I scoped the place out when I turned in my AGI paperwork at the FSDO
>> office yesterday. The "pilot lounge" was filled with idle
>> twenty-something CFIs...you can tell the CFIs by the white shirts and
>> epaulets and/or khaki jump suits. Looks cool, and very
>> professional, but none of 'em were making money at the time.
>>
>> The FBO I fly out of is all independent contractors and two or three
>> Gold Seal regulars. The only real problem is that there's only one
>> 152, three 172s, an Arrow and a twin. Great little operation but you
>> have to hustle up your own business. I don't know how much of the
>> $40/hr the instructors keep, but, knowing the owner I suspect it's
>> probably at least $30.
>>
>> My problem is total distrust of large companies. In fact, I don't
>> like working for other people period. Maybe I should buy my own
>> trainer. :>
>>
>> -c
>
> If you are serious, be sure to check you local airport policies first.
>
> Many airports no longer allow free lance instruction.
>

That's just what they told you.


Bertie

[Maxwell[_2_]]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
...
> On May 10, 9:54 am, "Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote:
>> "gatt" > wrote in message
>>
>
>>
>> If you are serious, be sure to check you local airport policies first.
>>
>> Many airports no longer allow free lance instruction.
>
> How is that possible? If I am using my own home office to meet and
> greet the student, and then drive to the airport and go flying, what
> rules would that violate?
>
> I can see a point if you are using the FBO lounge for flight
> instruction.
>

Probably none, but it is possible. I would like to hope most airports would
welcome any type of legitimate aviation activity, but not all do.

We have at least one local airport that has established extreme requirements
anyone doing business on their property. If you wish to give instruction you
have to maintain a certain amount of floor space, parking space, restrooms,
etc. It effectively excludes anyone but the present FBO from giving flight
instruction.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in
:

>
> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
> news:68c78dc6-6234-4d9b-9a64-0af4f2aae920
@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com..
> .
>> On May 10, 9:54 am, "Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote:
>>> "gatt" > wrote in message
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> If you are serious, be sure to check you local airport policies
>>> first.
>>>
>>> Many airports no longer allow free lance instruction.
>>
>> How is that possible? If I am using my own home office to meet and
>> greet the student, and then drive to the airport and go flying, what
>> rules would that violate?
>>
>> I can see a point if you are using the FBO lounge for flight
>> instruction.
>>
>
> Probably none, but it is possible. I would like to hope most airports
> would welcome any type of legitimate aviation activity, but not all
> do.
>
> We have at least one local airport that has established extreme
> requirements anyone doing business on their property. If you wish to
> give instruction you have to maintain a certain amount of floor space,
> parking space, restrooms, etc. It effectively excludes anyone but the
> present FBO from giving flight instruction.
>
>
>

That's just what they told you to get rid of you luser boi.


Bertie
>

[clint]

is this Zoom?
C J Campbell brought next idea :
> On 2008-05-09 16:17:05 -0700, gatt > said:

>> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>>
>>> Sounds about right. I assume you also have to provide your own
>>> liability insurance, right? The fact is that CFIs are willing to work
>>> for that or they wouldn't bother hiring.
>>
>> I scoped the place out when I turned in my AGI paperwork at the FSDO office
>> yesterday. The "pilot lounge" was filled with idle twenty-something
>> CFIs...you can tell the CFIs by the white shirts and epaulets and/or khaki
>> jump suits. Looks cool, and very professional, but none of 'em were
>> making money at the time.
>>
>> The FBO I fly out of is all independent contractors and two or three Gold
>> Seal regulars. The only real problem is that there's only one 152, three
>> 172s, an Arrow and a twin. Great little operation but you have to hustle
>> up your own business. I don't know how much of the $40/hr the instructors
>> keep, but, knowing the owner I suspect it's probably at least $30.
>>
>> My problem is total distrust of large companies. In fact, I don't like
>> working for other people period. Maybe I should buy my own trainer. :>
>>
>> -c

> Good luck with getting insurance on that.

[Robert M. Gary]

On May 10, 4:59*am, C J Campbell >
wrote:
> On 2008-05-09 16:17:05 -0700, gatt > said:

-c
>
> Good luck with getting insurance on that.

Its not hard to get instruction insurance on a C-150/C-172/ etc type
of plane. I believe when I checked into it it was something like $5000/
yr with solo priv. That's not bad but you got to keep the planes in
the air to pay for it. Idle planes cost money. The only problem is
that many insurance companies will not write less than 3 planes. So
you get a couple of CFI's toegether to get 3 planes on the policy.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On May 10, 8:23*am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> > Many airports no longer allow free lance instruction.
>
> That's just what they told you.

Actually, that's true. Several airports around here prohibit
instruction on the field unless you rent office space as well. For the
indi CFI who is working with owner pilots they'll never know but if
you put up a poster they'll chase you off.

-Robert

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in news:e9926584-c0ab-469a-
:

> On May 10, 8:23*am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> > Many airports no longer allow free lance instruction.
>>
>> That's just what they told you.
>
> Actually, that's true. Several airports around here prohibit
> instruction on the field unless you rent office space as well. For the
> indi CFI who is working with owner pilots they'll never know but if
> you put up a poster they'll chase you off.

Well, depends on the lease arrangement they have with the airport owner
( or if they are the airport owner!) If you had a seben leben franchise
you wouldn't let someone else sell icecream out of your fridge..



Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

clint > wrote in :

> is this Zoom?
>

No. Poor guy is just saddled with a similar name!

Bertie
>

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

gregvk > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip > wrote in news:g06o0d$rnh$2
> @blackhelicopter.databasix.com:
>
>> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in news:e9926584-c0ab-469a-
>> :
>>
>>> On May 10, 8:23*am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>>
>>>> > Many airports no longer allow free lance instruction.
>>>>
>>>> That's just what they told you.
>>>
>>> Actually, that's true. Several airports around here prohibit
>>> instruction on the field unless you rent office space as well. For
>>> the indi CFI who is working with owner pilots they'll never know but
>>> if you put up a poster they'll chase you off.
>>
>> Well, depends on the lease arrangement they have with the airport
>> owner ( or if they are the airport owner!) If you had a seben leben
>> franchise you wouldn't let someone else sell icecream out of your
>> fridge..
>>
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
> LOL!! It's teh funnay because --
>
> Oh wait, that's not even remotely funny for any reason whatsoever.
> Forget I said anything.
>

OK, thanks for the input though. We'll run over your observations at the
monday morning meeting.


Bertie

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

C J Campbell wrote:
>
>
> Good luck with getting insurance on that.

That may be changing.

I just heard a story on an AVWEB podcast about how AIG or Avemco (I
can't remember exactly) is now offering a special policy for CFI's to
instruct in their own airplane.

The offering company claims the premium will be only slightly higher
than a typical policy.

The insurance company rep. claimed they had run the numbers and noticed
a much smaller risk for a CFI instructing in an owned airplane vs. a
rented plane flown by many. The policy also covered the solo student.

[gatt[_3_]]

wrote:
The "pilot lounge" was filled with idle
>> twenty-something CFIs...you can tell the CFIs by the white shirts and
>> epaulets and/or khaki jump suits. Looks cool, and very professional,
>> but none of 'em were making money at the time.
>>
>
> I'm neither a 20-something nor a CFI, but if they're getting some
> flight time, they may not care how low the pay is. Are they just
> idling their days away with dwindling bank accounts or are they
> actually getting the hours needed for that first right seat in a
> commuter job? What other choice to they have, anyhow? It doesn't seem
> that there is a huge number of jobs for 300 hour pilots.

They're just there getting hours. A friend who is a student there says
the instruction quality kind of shows it because they have very few
seasoned instructors.

Rationalization/justification for that sort of operation can be made,
but, ultimately the quality of instruction and of the pilots they churn
out will suffer.

-c

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2008-05-11 05:19:18 -0700, Bertie the Bunyip > said:

> clint > wrote in :
>
>> is this Zoom?
>>
>
> No. Poor guy is just saddled with a similar name!
>
> Bertie

I am not Zoom. I am not related to him, either. I have never met him.
Everything that I have heard about him is second hand, much of it from
people that I respect, and very little of it has been good.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2008-05-09 14:36:57 -0700, gatt > said:

>
> I just scoped out a local FBO hiring CFIs (they went from a minimum of
> 100 hrs experience and CFII last September to hiring brand-new CFIs in
> January.)
>
> They charge $44/hr for ground or air instruction and the instructor
> base pay is $16 per billed hour.
>
> Free unlimited simulator time, free CFII ground and sim training, and
> after four months instructors get a "very low rate" on helicopter
> training.
>
> Doesn't mention health insurance. After teaching 250 hours,
> instructors get $17/hr. with a $3/hr bonus for "advanced instruction."
>
> Meanwhile they can't keep experienced instructors in the shop. Gee, I
> wonder why. The only problem is, to teach at the local community
> colleges, you have to be an employee of the FBO.
>
> -c

It costs me more to drive to the airport than what I get paid for a
flight lesson. Consequently I have all but given up instruction.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

C J Campbell > wrote in
news:2008051215451950073-christophercampbell@hotmailcom:

> On 2008-05-11 05:19:18 -0700, Bertie the Bunyip > said:
>
>> clint > wrote in :
>>
>>> is this Zoom?
>>>
>>
>> No. Poor guy is just saddled with a similar name!
>>
>> Bertie
>
> I am not Zoom. I am not related to him, either. I have never met him.
> Everything that I have heard about him is second hand, much of it from
> people that I respect, and very little of it has been good.
>

You heard something good?

I Saw a lot of his posts. Tried to get involved, of course, but it was
pretty much pointless since everybody on usenet was having a go at him.
Make a great book!

Bertie

[More_Flaps]

On May 13, 10:46*am, C J Campbell >
wrote:
> On 2008-05-09 14:36:57 -0700, gatt > said:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I just scoped out a local FBO hiring CFIs (they went from a minimum of
> > 100 hrs experience and CFII last September to hiring brand-new CFIs in
> > January.)
>
> > They charge $44/hr for ground or air instruction and the instructor
> > base pay is $16 per billed hour.
>
> > Free unlimited simulator time, free CFII ground and sim training, and
> > after four months instructors get a "very low rate" on helicopter
> > training.
>
> > Doesn't mention health insurance. * After teaching 250 hours,
> > instructors get $17/hr. with a $3/hr bonus for "advanced instruction."
>
> > Meanwhile they can't keep experienced instructors in the shop. *Gee, I
> > wonder why. *The only problem is, to teach at the local community
> > colleges, you have to be an employee of the FBO.
>
> > -c
>
> It costs me more to drive to the airport than what I get paid for a
> flight lesson. Consequently I have all but given up instruction.
> --

Pick a closer airport or charge a more reasonable rate?

Cheers