SPOT messenger

[[email protected]]

Having followed the discussions here on the SPOT messenger
(findmespot.com) I just bought one -- andhope never to need it of
course. While far from perfect, it seems like a very good aid should
search and rescue be needed. A few observations:

I had thought I might use it in OK mode to report my position more
frequently than the every 10 minutes in "track mode." At 120 kts,
that's every 20 nm, leaving as much as 1500 sq miles to search. Better
than those looking for Steve Fosset had, but still a lot. Of course,
the average will be less than 1500 sq miles. There is a 50% chance it
will be less than 400 sq miles.

Unfortunately, the OK mode and track mode cannot be used at the same
time. Also, it looks like the unit takes 20 minutes to send an OK
message -- sending it repeatedly at several minute intervals to
increase the probability of having a clear view of the sky. So track
mode's every 10 minutes is best for aviation use.

I also was a bit concerned that the unit could be in OK mode when I
really wanted tracking mode. You get either one by pressing the OK
button, momentarily to get OK mode and holding it for at least 5
seconds to get tracking mode. The problem is that, in both cases, the
indicator lights look the same: the power LED and the OK LED flash in
unison every 3 seconds! But there are two ways to distinguish between
the two that are not described in the manual:

1. When you hold the OK button to go into tracking mode, the OK LED
comes on constantly (not flashing) for 5 seconds and then starts the 3
second flash -- so it looks like it goes out after 5 seconds. Getting
to OK mode, you hit the OK button only momentarily and the OK LED
starts flashing every 3 seconds immediately.

2. In OK mode, the OK LED flashes in unison with the Power LED for
15-20 minutes, after which the OK transmissions are complete and only
the Power LED flashes. So, if you start tracking mode more than 20
minutes before starting your flight and check that both LED's are
still flashing when you get in the plane, you know you're in tracking
mode.

I also suggested to the company that they offer an aviation tracking
option that reports every minute instead of every 10 minutes, but was
told the unit takes 4 minutes to get each GPS fix. I guess that's how
it last so long on a set of batteries. I then suggested they offer an
every 4 minute tracking option and was told they will think about it.

Hoping this helps.

Martin
N56WT

[Robert M. Gary]

On May 14, 9:13*am, wrote:
> Having followed the discussions here on the SPOT messenger
> (findmespot.com) I just bought one -- andhope never to need it of
> course. While far from perfect, it seems like a very good aid should
> search and rescue be needed. A few observations:
>
> I had thought I might use it in OK mode to report my position more
> frequently than the every 10 minutes in "track mode." At 120 kts,
> that's every 20 nm, leaving as much as 1500 sq miles to search. Better
> than those looking for Steve Fosset had, but still a lot. Of course,
> the average will be less than 1500 sq miles. There is a 50% chance it
> will be less than 400 sq miles.

I have Spot because I travel to Mexico a lot. 400 sq miles may seem
like a pretty bad worse case scenario but I can tell you from having
partisipated in several S&R missions that we would have loved to have
narrowed the target down to 400 sq miles. I've been on many searches
that were many states. My first one was a plane that took off from
Iowa bound for Davis, CA. We must have spent hundrends of man hours
searching the track between Iowa and California. 400 sq miles would
have been wonderful.

-Robert

[NW_Pilot]

I have been told by a firend that deals in Sat Phones that there will be an
Iridium based (True World Wide) device but will be 3 times the cost. and
have a key pad to enter text personal messages and your position will be on
display.


> wrote in message
...
> Having followed the discussions here on the SPOT messenger
> (findmespot.com) I just bought one -- andhope never to need it of
> course. While far from perfect, it seems like a very good aid should
> search and rescue be needed. A few observations:
>
> I had thought I might use it in OK mode to report my position more
> frequently than the every 10 minutes in "track mode." At 120 kts,
> that's every 20 nm, leaving as much as 1500 sq miles to search. Better
> than those looking for Steve Fosset had, but still a lot. Of course,
> the average will be less than 1500 sq miles. There is a 50% chance it
> will be less than 400 sq miles.
>
> Unfortunately, the OK mode and track mode cannot be used at the same
> time. Also, it looks like the unit takes 20 minutes to send an OK
> message -- sending it repeatedly at several minute intervals to
> increase the probability of having a clear view of the sky. So track
> mode's every 10 minutes is best for aviation use.
>
> I also was a bit concerned that the unit could be in OK mode when I
> really wanted tracking mode. You get either one by pressing the OK
> button, momentarily to get OK mode and holding it for at least 5
> seconds to get tracking mode. The problem is that, in both cases, the
> indicator lights look the same: the power LED and the OK LED flash in
> unison every 3 seconds! But there are two ways to distinguish between
> the two that are not described in the manual:
>
> 1. When you hold the OK button to go into tracking mode, the OK LED
> comes on constantly (not flashing) for 5 seconds and then starts the 3
> second flash -- so it looks like it goes out after 5 seconds. Getting
> to OK mode, you hit the OK button only momentarily and the OK LED
> starts flashing every 3 seconds immediately.
>
> 2. In OK mode, the OK LED flashes in unison with the Power LED for
> 15-20 minutes, after which the OK transmissions are complete and only
> the Power LED flashes. So, if you start tracking mode more than 20
> minutes before starting your flight and check that both LED's are
> still flashing when you get in the plane, you know you're in tracking
> mode.
>
> I also suggested to the company that they offer an aviation tracking
> option that reports every minute instead of every 10 minutes, but was
> told the unit takes 4 minutes to get each GPS fix. I guess that's how
> it last so long on a set of batteries. I then suggested they offer an
> every 4 minute tracking option and was told they will think about it.
>
> Hoping this helps.
>
> Martin
> N56WT
>

[Robert M. Gary]

On May 14, 9:57*am, "NW_Pilot" >
wrote:
> I have been told by a firend that deals in Sat Phones that there will be an
> Iridium based (True World Wide) device but will be 3 times the cost. and
> have a key pad to enter text personal messages and your position will be on
> display.

We already have Iridium based products that work well. The entire
point Spot is that its very inexpensive.
-Robert

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On May 14, 9:13 am, wrote:
snip
> I also suggested to the company that they offer an aviation tracking
> option that reports every minute instead of every 10 minutes, but was
> told the unit takes 4 minutes to get each GPS fix. I guess that's how
> it last so long on a set of batteries. I then suggested they offer an
> every 4 minute tracking option and was told they will think about it.

Makes me wonder what is going on during that 4 minutes. are there
inaccuracies introduced by the fact that we are moving faster than a
hiker? how about the fact that we change altitude over that 4
minutes? Is it averaging a bunch of signals? Is it gathering
components of a single fix? Maybe it gets an instant fix, and then
waits for an opening to upload to the satellite? Has anyone ever
compared the spot time stamped location to an IGC trace temporally? In
other words, even though there is a lag in getting the fix from spot,
I wonder if the time it puts on the fix is accurate. If you flew over
some point of interest and pushed the OK button to mark it would you
get the right position 20 minutes later, or some random in between
position n minutes later?

Matt

[Brian[_1_]]

<snip>
> I had thought I might use it in OK mode to report my position more
> frequently than the every 10 minutes in "track mode." At 120 kts,
> that's every 20 nm, leaving as much as 1500 sq miles to search. Better
> than those looking for Steve Fosset had, but still a lot. Of course,
> the average will be less than 1500 sq miles. There is a 50% chance it
> will be less than 400 sq miles.
>
<snip>

Of course this assumes that the Spot does not survive the crash or can
not transmit after the crash. If it is still operable after the crash
then whit in 10 minutes It will report the your exact location.

Brian

[Darryl Ramm]

On May 14, 4:37 pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
> On May 14, 9:13 am, wrote:
> snip
>
> > I also suggested to the company that they offer an aviation tracking
> > option that reports every minute instead of every 10 minutes, but was
> > told the unit takes 4 minutes to get each GPS fix. I guess that's how
> > it last so long on a set of batteries. I then suggested they offer an
> > every 4 minute tracking option and was told they will think about it.
>
> Makes me wonder what is going on during that 4 minutes. are there
> inaccuracies introduced by the fact that we are moving faster than a
> hiker? how about the fact that we change altitude over that 4
> minutes? Is it averaging a bunch of signals? Is it gathering
> components of a single fix? Maybe it gets an instant fix, and then
> waits for an opening to upload to the satellite? Has anyone ever
> compared the spot time stamped location to an IGC trace temporally? In
> other words, even though there is a lag in getting the fix from spot,
> I wonder if the time it puts on the fix is accurate. If you flew over
> some point of interest and pushed the OK button to mark it would you
> get the right position 20 minutes later, or some random in between
> position n minutes later?
>
> Matt

You are making assumptions from what Martin said. In track mode I
suspect it is sleeping, wakes up the GPS and then sends the location/
time (and it tries to resend it later as well, since it is simplex it
never knows it the message goes out). But it knows exactly the time
when it was exactly at some coordinate and tries to send that exact
info, possibly delayed up to ~10 mins. Who know what exactly it does
when you press OK, Help or 911. if I built it, it would wake up the
GPS and grab a new fix and send that location - why would you build it
any different? The very modern GPS chipset used definitly should not
take 4 mins to acquire a (warm) fix and I'd eat my hat if they have to
do a cold fix each time.

The SPOT does not "wait for an opening" to talk to Globalstar, it has
no idea where the Globalstar satelites are, it just sends blind, then
retransmits the same message later. It's pure simplex, there is no
"carrier detect", no handshake, no ACK. Nothing. The Globalstar
satellites are just dumb one-way bent pipe repeaters. Sometime being
simple is a beautiful thing.

And to Martin's earlier comment, OK etc. does not always take 20
minutes to send, it might take up to that (or may never successfully
send) but you can see that messages often go out quicker than this.
I'm missing the point of the argument used, I use tracking becasue it
is convenient and I don't want to press buttons, not because I think a
track position report is more likely to get out than an OK report.

BTW kind of a throw away comment but the circle of uncertainity for a
10 minute fix spot at reasonable fast cruise speed is about the same
order as for a SARSAT doppler located plain old 121.5 MHz ELT. (which
SARSAT service goes away next year) Of course if SAR is activated and
they can home your ELT then they can find you (or your corpse). If
SPOT survives they also find you or the corpse. The big issue with an
ELT is they just don't activate on impact frequently enough and nobody
know what the stats are for gliders ( ~12 percent for GA aircraft). At
least with a SPOT in track mode you are not relying on impact
activation and not at the mercy of the unit not being damaged and the
antennas able to see the sky after impact. If SPOT simply halved the
10 minute location transmit times (which I've also heard from other
sources they are looking at doing) the are of uncertainity drops a
lot. The other thing is I suspect a lot more crashes/landouts happen
when gliders are not cruising at high speed but scratching around low
in weak lift or close in on ridges etc. In those cases the area of
uncrtainty will be smaller. Previous flight trace fixes will often
allow some guessing by SAR groups on the indended flight path, speed,
etc. and that will often reduce the area of uncertainity as well.

Executive summary: go buy yourself a SPOT messenger!

Cheers


Darryl

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On May 14, 11:34*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On May 14, 4:37 pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 14, 9:13 am, wrote:
> > *snip
>
> > > I also suggested to the company that they offer an aviation tracking
> > > option that reports every minute instead of every 10 minutes, but was
> > > told the unit takes 4 minutes to get each GPS fix. I guess that's how
> > > it last so long on a set of batteries. I then suggested they offer an
> > > every 4 minute tracking option and was told they will think about it.
>
> > Makes me wonder what is going on during that 4 minutes. are there
> > inaccuracies introduced by the fact that we are moving faster than a
> > hiker? *how about the fact that we change altitude over that 4
> > minutes? *Is it averaging a bunch of signals? *Is it gathering
> > components of a single fix? *Maybe it gets an instant fix, and then
> > waits for an opening to upload to the satellite? *Has anyone ever
> > compared the spot time stamped location to an IGC trace temporally? In
> > other words, even though there is a lag in getting the fix from spot,
> > I wonder if the time it puts on the fix is accurate. *If you flew over
> > some point of interest and pushed the OK button to mark it would you
> > get the right position 20 minutes later, or some random in between
> > position n minutes later?
>
> > Matt
>
> You are making assumptions from what Martin said. In track mode I
> suspect it is sleeping, wakes up the GPS and then sends the location/
> time (and it tries to resend it later as well, since it is simplex it
> never knows it the message goes out). But it knows exactly the time
> when it was exactly at some coordinate and tries to send that exact
> info, possibly delayed up to ~10 mins. Who know what exactly it does
> when you press OK, Help or 911. if I built it, it would wake up the
> GPS and grab a new fix and send that location - why would you build it
> any different? The very modern GPS chipset used *definitly should not
> take 4 mins to acquire a (warm) fix and I'd eat my hat if they have to
> do a cold fix each time.
>
> The SPOT does not "wait for an opening" to talk to Globalstar, it has
> no idea where the Globalstar satelites are, it just sends blind, then
> retransmits the same message later. It's pure simplex, there is no
> "carrier detect", no handshake, no ACK. Nothing. *The Globalstar
> satellites are just dumb one-way bent pipe repeaters. Sometime being
> simple is a beautiful thing.
>
> And to Martin's earlier comment, OK etc. does not always take 20
> minutes to send, it might take up to that (or may never successfully
> send) but you can see that messages often go out quicker than this.
> I'm missing the point of the argument used, I use tracking becasue it
> is convenient and I don't want to press buttons, not because I think a
> track position report is more likely to get out than an OK report.
>
> BTW kind of a throw away comment but the circle of uncertainity for a
> 10 minute fix spot at reasonable fast cruise speed is about the same
> order as for a SARSAT doppler located plain old 121.5 MHz ELT. (which
> SARSAT service goes away next year) Of course if SAR is activated and
> they can home your ELT then they can find you (or your corpse). If
> SPOT survives they also find you or the corpse. The big issue with an
> ELT is they just don't activate on impact frequently enough and nobody
> know what the stats are for gliders ( ~12 percent for GA aircraft). At
> least with a SPOT in track mode you are not relying on impact
> activation and not at the mercy of the unit not being damaged and the
> antennas able to see the sky after impact. If SPOT simply halved the
> 10 minute location transmit times (which I've also heard from other
> sources they are looking at doing) the are of uncertainity drops a
> lot. The other thing is I suspect a lot more crashes/landouts happen
> when gliders are not cruising at high speed but scratching around low
> in weak lift or close in on ridges etc. In those cases the area of
> uncrtainty will be smaller. Previous flight trace fixes will often
> allow some guessing by SAR groups on the indended flight path, speed,
> etc. and that will often reduce the area of uncertainity as well.
>
> Executive summary: go buy yourself a SPOT messenger!
>
> Cheers
>
> Darryl

Good summary Darryl, thanks. I agree with your search area opinions
as well. I assume it makes more sense to have the spot attached to
the chute rather than the plane for pretty much all situations.

Matt

[Robert M. Gary]

On May 14, 11:34*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On May 14, 4:37 pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:

> The SPOT does not "wait for an opening" to talk to Globalstar, it has
> no idea where the Globalstar satelites are, it just sends blind, then
> retransmits the same message later. It's pure simplex, there is no
> "carrier detect", no handshake, no ACK. Nothing. *The Globalstar
> satellites are just dumb one-way bent pipe repeaters. Sometime being
> simple is a beautiful thing.

I always assumed the 20 minute thing was put into the SPOT system
because sat time is expensive.

> Executive summary: go buy yourself a SPOT messenger!

I did and I love it! I'm just waiting for them to create a public side
to findmespot.com so I can share my tracks. Right now you have to give
out the admin password to your account (which includes your credit
card on file, etc) for people to see your tracks.

-Robert

[Eric Greenwell]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> I did and I love it! I'm just waiting for them to create a public side
> to findmespot.com so I can share my tracks. Right now you have to give
> out the admin password to your account (which includes your credit
> card on file, etc) for people to see your tracks.

They've done that already, and it works well. Take another look at the
site to see how you can create public pages.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Eric Greenwell]

Darryl Ramm wrote:

> And to Martin's earlier comment, OK etc. does not always take 20
> minutes to send, it might take up to that (or may never successfully
> send) but you can see that messages often go out quicker than this.
> I'm missing the point of the argument used, I use tracking becasue it
> is convenient and I don't want to press buttons, not because I think a
> track position report is more likely to get out than an OK report.

I also use tracking for these reasons. I do think an OK messages will
get out more reliably a tracking message, because OK messages have a 20
minute window to get out, versus the 10 minute window of the tracking
messages. All my OK messages have been sent, but an ocasional tracking
message isn't, sometimes two in a row.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Eric Greenwell]

Matt Herron Jr. wrote:

> Good summary Darryl, thanks. I agree with your search area opinions
> as well. I assume it makes more sense to have the spot attached to
> the chute rather than the plane for pretty much all situations.

I'm thinking of doing this. How has it worked out for other people? Does
it work well sitting semi-vertical in a pouch on the front parachute
straps, or does it work better sitting horizontally on your shoulder?

Since it already misses an occasional message mounted in an ideal
location (horizontal on the canopy rail), I don't want it to miss any
additional messages.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Rick Culbertson]

Eric,

For my two Spot flights, both in the 300k range I've kept mine clipped
vertically in the side pouch and yes it does miss a few but it seems
to get the job done just fine so I'll stick with that for now (easy
access).


Unsolicited comments: Changing the OK, Help & 911 comments is so very
simple that one could simply tailor the verbiage for what ever
Situation and Geographical location you may want to use it for, making
it very versatile. For example; Just going for a little XC in
Colorado, Contest Racing in Parowan Utah, Uvalde TX or Backpacking in
Uganda. It only takes about 5 minutes to do each time.

For Soaring I'll only use the OK to confirm I'm safely on the ground
and it's noted this way in my message, this usually goes to my wife’s
cell too. If I need a retrieve then I follow it up with an
informative help message including my cell #s (I carry 2). Of course
in the 911 category I provide a lot more detailed information adjusted
for XC Soaring, Racing or Hiking etc.

I can see this Spot tracking being very handy for crews or even the CD
hanging around the AP with wireless service wondering how pilot # is
doing etc., I plan to use it at two US contests as well as my home AP
this summer and see how well it goes.

21




On May 15, 10:21*am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > Good summary Darryl, thanks. *I agree with your search area opinions
> > as well. *I assume it makes more sense to have the spot attached to
> > the chute rather than the plane for pretty much all situations.
>
> I'm thinking of doing this. How has it worked out for other people? Does
> it work well sitting semi-vertical in a pouch on the front parachute
> straps, or does it work better sitting horizontally on your shoulder?
>
> Since it already misses an occasional message mounted in an ideal
> location (horizontal on the canopy rail), I don't want it to miss any
> additional messages.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> * Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * * * New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more
>
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

[Ramy]

On May 15, 9:21*am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > Good summary Darryl, thanks. *I agree with your search area opinions
> > as well. *I assume it makes more sense to have the spot attached to
> > the chute rather than the plane for pretty much all situations.
>
> I'm thinking of doing this. How has it worked out for other people? Does
> it work well sitting semi-vertical in a pouch on the front parachute
> straps, or does it work better sitting horizontally on your shoulder?
>
> Since it already misses an occasional message mounted in an ideal
> location (horizontal on the canopy rail), I don't want it to miss any
> additional messages.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> * Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * * * New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more
>
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

I experimented a lot with the location of the spot on my parachute as
I was missing 10-20% of the transmissions, until I heard this is
typical. There was no noticable difference between completly
horizontal on my shoulder (which makes reading the led lights and
accessing the buttons difficult) to 45 degrees when strapped near my
chest.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

On May 15, 5:39*pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
> I experimented a lot with the location of the spot on my parachute as
> I was missing 10-20% of the transmissions, until I heard this is
> typical. There was no noticable difference between completly
> horizontal on my shoulder (which makes reading the led lights and
> accessing the buttons difficult) to 45 degrees when strapped near my
> chest.

Ramy,

I spoke with Allen Silver today and he noted that wearing it on your
shoulder (where I was thinking of strapping it, for the best view of
the sky) means it's likely to be torn off in a bail out. That comment
also made me wonder if, even worse, it might interfere with chute
deployment. I also called technical support and was told that the unit
works just as well horizontal as vertical. So I'm buying Allen's
Deluxe SMAK Pak, which velcros to the chute near your chest and has
room for a PLB or the SPOT.

Martin

[Eric Greenwell]

wrote:
I also called technical support and was told that the unit
> works just as well horizontal as vertical.

That's good news. Too bad they tell you horizontal is best in the
instructions with the unit.

> So I'm buying Allen's
> Deluxe SMAK Pak, which velcros to the chute near your chest and has
> room for a PLB or the SPOT.

I just got one for that purpose, and it seems to fit well on the chute.
I wish the zipper opened from the top instead of the bottom, so I could
partially open it to check the lights. I suggest you ask Allen if he can
do that for yours, if it's not already shipped.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Eric Greenwell]

wrote:
I also called technical support and was told that the unit
> works just as well horizontal as vertical.

That's good news. Too bad they tell you horizontal is best in the
instructions with the unit.

> So I'm buying Allen's
> Deluxe SMAK Pak, which velcros to the chute near your chest and has
> room for a PLB or the SPOT.

I just got one for that purpose, and it seems to fit well on the chute.
I wish the zipper opened from the top instead of the bottom, so I could
partially open it to check the lights. I suggest you ask Allen if he can
do that for yours, if it's not already shipped.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Darryl Ramm]

Both the GPS and Globalstar antennas are flat planar antennas that
only "see" through a cone shaped pattern (it will have lobes as well)
out of the out top face of the Spot unit. The statement that these
could possibly work as well if the unit is vertical as if horizontal
does not make sense. Now the unit might work *sufficiently* well if
vertical and has a reasonable view of the sky, but it certainly won't
work "just as well". Play with it and see, if it work for you then
great.

Darryl

On May 16, 7:28 am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> wrote:
>
> I also called technical support and was told that the unit
>
> > works just as well horizontal as vertical.
>
> That's good news. Too bad they tell you horizontal is best in the
> instructions with the unit.
>
> > So I'm buying Allen's
>
> > Deluxe SMAK Pak, which velcros to the chute near your chest and has
> > room for a PLB or the SPOT.
>
> I just got one for that purpose, and it seems to fit well on the chute.
> I wish the zipper opened from the top instead of the bottom, so I could
> partially open it to check the lights. I suggest you ask Allen if he can
> do that for yours, if it's not already shipped.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> * Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more
>
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

[Darryl Ramm]

On May 15, 8:19 am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On May 14, 11:34 pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
> > On May 14, 4:37 pm, "Matt Herron Jr." > wrote:
> > The SPOT does not "wait for an opening" to talk to Globalstar, it has
> > no idea where the Globalstar satelites are, it just sends blind, then
> > retransmits the same message later. It's pure simplex, there is no
> > "carrier detect", no handshake, no ACK. Nothing. The Globalstar
> > satellites are just dumb one-way bent pipe repeaters. Sometime being
> > simple is a beautiful thing.
>
> I always assumed the 20 minute thing was put into the SPOT system
> because sat time is expensive.

I've got to be believe the 20 mins is a wild design guess on their
part. The practical transmit reliability with SPOT across their
intended users has got to be dominated by environmental factors,
device antenna direction, obstructions (trees, mountains, etc. for
hikers, car roofs) and finally satellite position. Modeling the number
and durations between retransmit attempts to deal with these factors
would be very difficult. You'd start with a simplified model that just
factored satellite coverage and message collision probabilities and
guess from there. You want to cap retransmits to reduce battery
consumption and just excess further collisions. For 911 it keeps
retransmitting much longer AFAIK. And the only "cost" for the sat time
is the risk of further message collisions.

Darryl

[Ramy]

On May 16, 11:00*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> Both the GPS and Globalstar antennas are flat planar antennas that
> only "see" through a cone shaped pattern (it will have lobes as well)
> out of the out top face of the Spot unit. The statement that these
> could possibly work as well if the unit is vertical as if horizontal
> does not make sense. Now the unit might work *sufficiently* well if
> vertical and has a reasonable view of the sky, but it certainly won't
> work "just as well". Play with it and see, if it work for you then
> great.
>
> Darryl
>
> On May 16, 7:28 am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
>
> > I also called technical support and was told that the unit
>
> > > works just as well horizontal as vertical.
>
> > That's good news. Too bad they tell you horizontal is best in the
> > instructions with the unit.
>
> > *> So I'm buying Allen's
>
> > > Deluxe SMAK Pak, which velcros to the chute near your chest and has
> > > room for a PLB or the SPOT.
>
> > I just got one for that purpose, and it seems to fit well on the chute.
> > I wish the zipper opened from the top instead of the bottom, so I could
> > partially open it to check the lights. I suggest you ask Allen if he can
> > do that for yours, if it's not already shipped.
>
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> > * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> > * Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> > * * * New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more
>
> > * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I tried it vertically in my pocket once while hiking and it did not
transmit a single fix. This was shortly after I received it so it is
possible I did not put it correctly in tracking mode, but I was pretty
sure.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

On May 15, 9:05*am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
> > I did and I love it! I'm just waiting for them to create a public side
> > to findmespot.com so I can share my tracks. Right now you have to give
> > out the admin password to your account (which includes your credit
> > card on file, etc) for people to see your tracks.
>
> They've done that already, and it works well. Take another look at the
> site to see how you can create public pages.

Thanks to all for posting. I'm gathering responses to several posts
here. First, on the sharing option, they say it's a beta and in my
experience (and that of three people who tried it on various
computers) it does not work. While it may work some of the time,
that's not good enough for the S&R application, so I've had to share
my account password with my backup people.

Second on Eric's post re zipper on top vs. the bottom (#13 in this
thread), I emailed Allen Silver and, not surprisingly, there is a
logic to the zipper location. Here's his response:

"There actually is a reason why I mounted it on the bottom. One is to
protect it from getting snagged and accidentally opened and the other
is about gravity. If you left the snap that secures the zipper to the
pack undone and you had to bailout the zipper could unzip during the g
forces of opening. Not likely to occur, but you know about Murphy's
Law."

Thanks for the posts on vertical vs. horizontal. I'll have to try it
in the SMAK PAK and see what happens.

Martin
WT

[Ramy]

On May 24, 8:43*am, wrote:
> On May 15, 9:05*am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
> > Robert M. Gary wrote:
> > > I did and I love it! I'm just waiting for them to create a public side
> > > to findmespot.com so I can share my tracks. Right now you have to give
> > > out the admin password to your account (which includes your credit
> > > card on file, etc) for people to see your tracks.
>
> > They've done that already, and it works well. Take another look at the
> > site to see how you can create public pages.
>
> Thanks to all for posting. I'm gathering responses to several posts
> here. First, on the sharing option, they say it's a beta and in my
> experience (and that of three people who tried it on various
> computers) it does not work. While it may work some of the time,
> that's not good enough for the S&R application, so I've had to share
> my account password with my backup people.
>
> Second on Eric's post re zipper on top vs. the bottom (#13 in this
> thread), I emailed Allen Silver and, not surprisingly, there is a
> logic to the zipper location. Here's his response:
>
> "There actually is a reason why I mounted it on the bottom. One is to
> protect it from getting snagged and accidentally opened and the other
> is about gravity. If you left the snap that secures the zipper to the
> pack undone and you had to bailout the zipper could unzip during the g
> forces of opening. Not likely to occur, but you know about Murphy's
> Law."
>
> Thanks for the posts on vertical vs. horizontal. I'll have to try it
> in the SMAK PAK and see what happens.
>
> Martin
> WT

I don't have any problems with the share page, it is working the same
as the account page, and much more intuitive. the only issue with it
is that currently it only displays the last 24 hours, so if you need
to track someone longer you need to logon to their account.

Ramy

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I've been selling a lot of SPOT units and I'm very curious about the SMAK
pak from Allen Silver. Can you please send me contact information. Does he
have a web site?

Thank you,

Paul Remde

> wrote in message
...
On May 15, 9:05 am, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
> > I did and I love it! I'm just waiting for them to create a public side
> > to findmespot.com so I can share my tracks. Right now you have to give
> > out the admin password to your account (which includes your credit
> > card on file, etc) for people to see your tracks.
>
> They've done that already, and it works well. Take another look at the
> site to see how you can create public pages.

Thanks to all for posting. I'm gathering responses to several posts
here. First, on the sharing option, they say it's a beta and in my
experience (and that of three people who tried it on various
computers) it does not work. While it may work some of the time,
that's not good enough for the S&R application, so I've had to share
my account password with my backup people.

Second on Eric's post re zipper on top vs. the bottom (#13 in this
thread), I emailed Allen Silver and, not surprisingly, there is a
logic to the zipper location. Here's his response:

"There actually is a reason why I mounted it on the bottom. One is to
protect it from getting snagged and accidentally opened and the other
is about gravity. If you left the snap that secures the zipper to the
pack undone and you had to bailout the zipper could unzip during the g
forces of opening. Not likely to occur, but you know about Murphy's
Law."

Thanks for the posts on vertical vs. horizontal. I'll have to try it
in the SMAK PAK and see what happens.

Martin
WT

[sisu1a]

On May 31, 9:28 pm, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've been selling a lot of SPOT units and I'm very curious about the SMAK
> pak from Allen Silver. Can you please send me contact information. Does he
> have a web site?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Paul Remde
>
http://www.silverparachutes.com/

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

Thanks for the link to the SMAK Pak. It looks very nice.

If pilots want a simpler option for holding the SPOT only. I just placed an
order to Para-Phernalia (makers of Softie parachutes) for a batch of their
"Pocket for PLB" (personal locator beacon) pouches - made to match the
dimensions of the spot. I will stock them in the orange color (to match the
SPOT) but I can also get them in colors to match your parachute. They sell
for $50.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

"sisu1a" > wrote in message
...
> On May 31, 9:28 pm, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've been selling a lot of SPOT units and I'm very curious about the SMAK
>> pak from Allen Silver. Can you please send me contact information. Does
>> he
>> have a web site?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Paul Remde
>>
> http://www.silverparachutes.com/

[Ramy]

I had a 7 hours flight last Saturday in Nevada, during which my spot
was tracking normally, with the occasional missing transmissions here
and there. However there was a period of one hour with no track
reports. The only thing I can tell which was different from tthe rest
of the flight is that I was flying under solid overcast and OD during
this period, once I got back to the sun the tracking resumed.
Any thoughts if this was just coincidence or the clouds blocked the
transmissions?
In any case, I'f affraid that currently it is not safe to assume that
a glider will be within 10 minutes distance of the last track, can be
much longer.

Ramy

On Jun 1, 5:55*am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the link to the SMAK Pak. *It looks very nice.
>
> If pilots want a simpler option for holding theSPOTonly. *I just placed an
> order to Para-Phernalia (makers of Softie parachutes) for a batch of their
> "Pocket for PLB" (personal locator beacon) pouches - made to match the
> dimensions of thespot. *I will stock them in the orange color (to match theSPOT) but I can also get them in colors to match your parachute. *They sell
> for $50.
>
> Good Soaring,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
>
> "sisu1a" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 9:28 pm, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> >> Hi,
>
> >> I've been selling a lot ofSPOTunits and I'm very curious about the SMAK
> >> pak from Allen Silver. Can you please send me contact information. *Does
> >> he
> >> have a web site?
>
> >> Thank you,
>
> >> Paul Remde
>
> >http://www.silverparachutes.com/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[[email protected]]

Hi Paul
Spot does not attach to glider straps because the Spot clip is too
small and I thank you Paul for making available the pouch. I have had
a Spot for about a month now and have used it on most flights. It
mostly works well but as with most items not designed for aviation it
is not perfect for that application. Soaring from Parowan to Minden
today the girls were monitoring my flight using the tracking mode and
well into the flight the received tracks, instead of being close to
real time, stopped coming for an hour and the girls started to worry.
About 1 hour later the system caught up and the missing tracks
appeared. Regardless the Spot is a very useful device and I will not
fly without it. I am sure the bugs will be worked out.
Dave

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jun 16, 3:36*pm, Ramy > wrote:
> I had a 7 hours flight last Saturday in Nevada, during which my spot
> was tracking normally, with the occasional missing transmissions here
> and there. However there was a period of one hour with no track
> reports. The only thing I can tell which was different from tthe rest
> of the flight is that I was flying under solid overcast and OD during
> this period, once I got back to the sun the tracking resumed.
> Any thoughts if this was just coincidence or the clouds blocked the
> transmissions?
> In any case, I'f affraid that currently it is not safe to assume that
> a glider will be within 10 minutes distance of the last track, can be
> much longer.
>
> Ramy
>
> On Jun 1, 5:55*am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
>
> > Hi,
>
> > Thanks for the link to the SMAK Pak. *It looks very nice.
>
> > If pilots want a simpler option for holding theSPOTonly. *I just placed an
> > order to Para-Phernalia (makers of Softie parachutes) for a batch of their
> > "Pocket for PLB" (personal locator beacon) pouches - made to match the
> > dimensions of thespot. *I will stock them in the orange color (to match theSPOT) but I can also get them in colors to match your parachute. *They sell
> > for $50.
>
> > Good Soaring,
>
> > Paul Remde
> > Cumulus Soaring, Inc.http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
>
> > "sisu1a" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > On May 31, 9:28 pm, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> > >> Hi,
>
> > >> I've been selling a lot ofSPOTunits and I'm very curious about the SMAK
> > >> pak from Allen Silver. Can you please send me contact information. *Does
> > >> he
> > >> have a web site?
>
> > >> Thank you,
>
> > >> Paul Remde
>
> > >http://www.silverparachutes.com/-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

Ramy

Spot uses the Globalstar L-Band simplex links. L-band is relatively
immune to rain attenuation, rain/water droplets suspended in storm
clouds are likely the worse case scenario. A guess for bad rain
attenuation might be something like only a dB or so at L-band. The GPS
signals are in the same frequency bands and will have similar
attenuation. So my first guess is clouds, even storm clouds are not
likely to be the issue.

So the next question is did anybody else flying in the genral area
have the same problem? I was flying in the Mendocinos at the same time
and had no SPOT problems but that is probably far enough away to not
count, except to exclude more systemic problems. The next question is
did the unit have a full view of the sky or are you still mounting it
on your parachute harness? I'm not sure if this is on your shoulder -
in which case your head (hopefully opaque at L-band :-) ), RF opaque
parts of the fuselage/canopy frame area, etc. will be obscuring lots
of the sky, or vertical on your harness in which case far more of the
sky will likely be obscured. Both of these will affect coverage as
Global star satellites fly into and out of the now fairly restricted
sky view or as you turn the direction of the obscured antenna to bring
Globalstar or GPS satellites into view.

I think SPOT is fantastic, fly with one all the time in SPOTcast mode,
but I'm not giving up on my 406MHz PLB on my parachute harness.

Darryl

[Greg Arnold[_2_]]

>
> Ramy
>
> Spot uses the Globalstar L-Band simplex links. L-band is relatively
> immune to rain attenuation, rain/water droplets suspended in storm
> clouds are likely the worse case scenario. A guess for bad rain
> attenuation might be something like only a dB or so at L-band. The GPS
> signals are in the same frequency bands and will have similar
> attenuation. So my first guess is clouds, even storm clouds are not
> likely to be the issue.
>
> So the next question is did anybody else flying in the genral area
> have the same problem? I was flying in the Mendocinos at the same time
> and had no SPOT problems but that is probably far enough away to not
> count, except to exclude more systemic problems. The next question is
> did the unit have a full view of the sky or are you still mounting it
> on your parachute harness? I'm not sure if this is on your shoulder -
> in which case your head (hopefully opaque at L-band :-) ), RF opaque
> parts of the fuselage/canopy frame area, etc. will be obscuring lots
> of the sky, or vertical on your harness in which case far more of the
> sky will likely be obscured. Both of these will affect coverage as
> Global star satellites fly into and out of the now fairly restricted
> sky view or as you turn the direction of the obscured antenna to bring
> Globalstar or GPS satellites into view.
>
> I think SPOT is fantastic, fly with one all the time in SPOTcast mode,
> but I'm not giving up on my 406MHz PLB on my parachute harness.
>
> Darryl

I have a SPOT on order. Where is the best place to mount it so it has a
full view of the sky (excluding the top of the glare shield)? Will it
work under a fiberglass glare shield?

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jun 17, 9:14*am, Greg Arnold > wrote:
> > Ramy
>
> > Spot uses the Globalstar L-Band simplex links. L-band *is relatively
> > immune to rain attenuation, rain/water droplets suspended in storm
> > clouds are likely the worse case scenario. A guess for bad rain
> > attenuation might be something like only a dB or so at L-band. The GPS
> > signals are in the same frequency bands and will have similar
> > attenuation. So my first guess is clouds, even storm clouds are not
> > likely to be the issue.
>
> > So the next question is did anybody else flying in the genral area
> > have the same problem? I was flying in the Mendocinos at the same time
> > and had no SPOT problems but that is probably far enough away to not
> > count, except to exclude more systemic problems. The next question is
> > did the unit have a full view of the sky or are you still mounting it
> > on your parachute harness? *I'm not sure if this is on your shoulder -
> > in which case your head (hopefully opaque at L-band :-) ), RF opaque
> > parts of the fuselage/canopy frame area, etc. will be obscuring lots
> > of the sky, or vertical on your harness in which case far more of the
> > sky will likely be obscured. Both of these will affect coverage as
> > Global star satellites fly into and out of the now fairly restricted
> > sky view or as you turn the direction of the obscured antenna to bring
> > Globalstar or GPS satellites into view.
>
> > I think SPOT is fantastic, fly with one all the time in SPOTcast mode,
> > but I'm not giving up on my 406MHz PLB on my parachute harness.
>
> > Darryl
>
> I have a SPOT on order. *Where is the best place to mount it so it has a
> full view of the sky (excluding the top of the glare shield)? * Will it
> work under a fiberglass glare shield?

Greg

People are mounting them on their harnesses and apparently getting
them to work, but the problems that Ramy reports may show this is not
as reliable as a less obscured location. I'll remind people of Allen
Silvers' (experienced parachutist/parachute rigger) warning against
mounting them on the shoulder area of a parachute.

Ideally you just want it mostly flat and not obscured. I mount mine on
the right canopy rail of my ASH-26E using 3M dual-lock tape. You can
see it here http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrylramm/2082630811 The
glareshield should not present a problem for RF signals but you need
to unit where you can press buttons, check LEDs (flat batteries etc.).
On the canopy rail I have to pop the unit off to check the LEDs etc.
This may not work on all gliders but even on my DG-303 with a thin
rail I would have just installed a mounting plate on the narrower
canopy rail.

If you do need to end up mounting on the glareshield area the bright
orange color/reflections are likely to be a distraction. A black cloth
covering could work. SPOT also make a sturdy looking black nylon bag/
holster for the SPOT (purchased separately, does not come with it). I
saw a Holster for sale at at Williams Soaring but have not seen them
elsewhere, I think they had a SPOT logo on them. You might be able to
mount that holster on the glareshield and slip the spot unit into it
for use. Hopefully it won't get too hot in the sun. Braver people
could disassemble the SPOT (disassembly is easy) and paint it with
Krylon Fusion flat black paint, but I'd be worried of the paint
scratching off over time or the unit getting too hot in the Sun.

This all assumes you care mostly about use in flight, I do, and thing
the SPOTcasting/tracking feature is the best thing. If you mostly care
about the "911" feature and the SPOT unit going with you in a bailout,
then put it on your parachute harness with a Silver Parachute SMAK
pack (the large size, see http://www.silverparachutes.com/smak_pak.html
) or similar.

Darryl

[Ramy]

I still mount mine on the parachute shoulder straps (below my
shoulder), so it is pointing 45 degrees or so. After experimenting
with it in various angles I determined it made no difference. Allen
Silver just repacked my chute and had no concerns about the location.
As for that particular flight, I don't know who else flew in the area
with Spot (suprisingly, even with it's low cost - about a cost of 2
tows nowaday, pilots are not in a hurry to buy one) so can't compare,
but I can tell that nothing else was different from the rest of the
flight, and it was mostly flying straight so the Spot had a clear view
of the sky the whole time. After over 10 flights with the Spot (still
running on the original batteries btw), this is the first time I had
more then 30 minutes without track.

Ramy


On Jun 17, 9:48*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Jun 17, 9:14*am, Greg Arnold > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Ramy
>
> > > Spot uses the Globalstar L-Band simplex links. L-band *is relatively
> > > immune to rain attenuation, rain/water droplets suspended in storm
> > > clouds are likely the worse case scenario. A guess for bad rain
> > > attenuation might be something like only a dB or so at L-band. The GPS
> > > signals are in the same frequency bands and will have similar
> > > attenuation. So my first guess is clouds, even storm clouds are not
> > > likely to be the issue.
>
> > > So the next question is did anybody else flying in the genral area
> > > have the same problem? I was flying in the Mendocinos at the same time
> > > and had no SPOT problems but that is probably far enough away to not
> > > count, except to exclude more systemic problems. The next question is
> > > did the unit have a full view of the sky or are you still mounting it
> > > on your parachute harness? *I'm not sure if this is on your shoulder -
> > > in which case your head (hopefully opaque at L-band :-) ), RF opaque
> > > parts of the fuselage/canopy frame area, etc. will be obscuring lots
> > > of the sky, or vertical on your harness in which case far more of the
> > > sky will likely be obscured. Both of these will affect coverage as
> > > Global star satellites fly into and out of the now fairly restricted
> > > sky view or as you turn the direction of the obscured antenna to bring
> > > Globalstar or GPS satellites into view.
>
> > > I think SPOT is fantastic, fly with one all the time in SPOTcast mode,
> > > but I'm not giving up on my 406MHz PLB on my parachute harness.
>
> > > Darryl
>
> > I have a SPOT on order. *Where is the best place to mount it so it has a
> > full view of the sky (excluding the top of the glare shield)? * Will it
> > work under a fiberglass glare shield?
>
> Greg
>
> People are mounting them on their harnesses and apparently getting
> them to work, but the problems that Ramy reports may show this is not
> as reliable as a less obscured location. I'll remind people of Allen
> Silvers' (experienced parachutist/parachute rigger) warning against
> mounting them on the shoulder area of a parachute.
>
> Ideally you just want it mostly flat and not obscured. I mount mine on
> the right canopy rail of my ASH-26E using 3M dual-lock tape. You can
> see it herehttp://www.flickr.com/photos/darrylramm/2082630811*The
> glareshield should not present a problem for RF signals but you need
> to unit where you can press buttons, check LEDs (flat batteries etc.).
> On the canopy rail I have to pop the unit off to check the LEDs etc.
> This may not work on all gliders but even on my DG-303 with a thin
> rail I would have just installed a mounting plate on the narrower
> canopy rail.
>
> If you do need to end up mounting on the glareshield area the bright
> orange color/reflections are likely to be a distraction. A black cloth
> covering could work. SPOT also make a sturdy looking black nylon bag/
> holster for the SPOT (purchased separately, does not come with it). I
> saw a Holster for sale at at Williams Soaring but have not seen them
> elsewhere, I think they had a SPOT logo on them. You might be able to
> mount that holster on the glareshield and slip the spot unit into it
> for use. Hopefully it won't get too hot in the sun. Braver people
> could disassemble the SPOT (disassembly is easy) and paint it with
> Krylon Fusion flat black paint, but I'd be worried of the paint
> scratching off over time or the unit getting too hot in the Sun.
>
> This all assumes you care mostly about use in flight, I do, and thing
> the SPOTcasting/tracking feature is the best thing. If you mostly care
> about the "911" feature and the SPOT unit going with you in a bailout,
> then put it on your parachute harness with a Silver Parachute SMAK
> pack (the large size, seehttp://www.silverparachutes.com/smak_pak.html
> ) *or similar.
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jun 17, 11:24*am, Ramy > wrote:
> I still mount mine on the parachute shoulder straps (below my
> shoulder), so it is pointing 45 degrees or so. After experimenting
> with it in various angles I determined it made no difference. Allen
> Silver just repacked my chute and had no concerns about the location.
> As for that particular flight, I don't know who else flew in the area
> with Spot (suprisingly, even with it's low cost - about a cost of 2
> tows nowaday, pilots are not in a hurry to buy one) so can't compare,
> but I can tell that nothing else was different from the rest of the
> flight, and it was mostly flying straight so the Spot had a clear view
> of the sky the whole time. After over 10 flights with the Spot (still
> running on the original batteries btw), this is the first time I had
> more then 30 minutes without track.
>
> Ramy
>
> On Jun 17, 9:48*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
> > On Jun 17, 9:14*am, Greg Arnold > wrote:
>
> > > > Ramy
>
> > > > Spot uses the Globalstar L-Band simplex links. L-band *is relatively
> > > > immune to rain attenuation, rain/water droplets suspended in storm
> > > > clouds are likely the worse case scenario. A guess for bad rain
> > > > attenuation might be something like only a dB or so at L-band. The GPS
> > > > signals are in the same frequency bands and will have similar
> > > > attenuation. So my first guess is clouds, even storm clouds are not
> > > > likely to be the issue.
>
> > > > So the next question is did anybody else flying in the genral area
> > > > have the same problem? I was flying in the Mendocinos at the same time
> > > > and had no SPOT problems but that is probably far enough away to not
> > > > count, except to exclude more systemic problems. The next question is
> > > > did the unit have a full view of the sky or are you still mounting it
> > > > on your parachute harness? *I'm not sure if this is on your shoulder -
> > > > in which case your head (hopefully opaque at L-band :-) ), RF opaque
> > > > parts of the fuselage/canopy frame area, etc. will be obscuring lots
> > > > of the sky, or vertical on your harness in which case far more of the
> > > > sky will likely be obscured. Both of these will affect coverage as
> > > > Global star satellites fly into and out of the now fairly restricted
> > > > sky view or as you turn the direction of the obscured antenna to bring
> > > > Globalstar or GPS satellites into view.
>
> > > > I think SPOT is fantastic, fly with one all the time in SPOTcast mode,
> > > > but I'm not giving up on my 406MHz PLB on my parachute harness.
>
> > > > Darryl
>
> > > I have a SPOT on order. *Where is the best place to mount it so it has a
> > > full view of the sky (excluding the top of the glare shield)? * Will it
> > > work under a fiberglass glare shield?
>
> > Greg
>
> > People are mounting them on their harnesses and apparently getting
> > them to work, but the problems that Ramy reports may show this is not
> > as reliable as a less obscured location. I'll remind people of Allen
> > Silvers' (experienced parachutist/parachute rigger) warning against
> > mounting them on the shoulder area of a parachute.
>
> > Ideally you just want it mostly flat and not obscured. I mount mine on
> > the right canopy rail of my ASH-26E using 3M dual-lock tape. You can
> > see it herehttp://www.flickr.com/photos/darrylramm/2082630811*The
> > glareshield should not present a problem for RF signals but you need
> > to unit where you can press buttons, check LEDs (flat batteries etc.).
> > On the canopy rail I have to pop the unit off to check the LEDs etc.
> > This may not work on all gliders but even on my DG-303 with a thin
> > rail I would have just installed a mounting plate on the narrower
> > canopy rail.
>
> > If you do need to end up mounting on the glareshield area the bright
> > orange color/reflections are likely to be a distraction. A black cloth
> > covering could work. SPOT also make a sturdy looking black nylon bag/
> > holster for the SPOT (purchased separately, does not come with it). I
> > saw a Holster for sale at at Williams Soaring but have not seen them
> > elsewhere, I think they had a SPOT logo on them. You might be able to
> > mount that holster on the glareshield and slip the spot unit into it
> > for use. Hopefully it won't get too hot in the sun. Braver people
> > could disassemble the SPOT (disassembly is easy) and paint it with
> > Krylon Fusion flat black paint, but I'd be worried of the paint
> > scratching off over time or the unit getting too hot in the Sun.
>
> > This all assumes you care mostly about use in flight, I do, and thing
> > the SPOTcasting/tracking feature is the best thing. If you mostly care
> > about the "911" feature and the SPOT unit going with you in a bailout,
> > then put it on your parachute harness with a Silver Parachute SMAK
> > pack (the large size, seehttp://www.silverparachutes.com/smak_pak.html
> > ) *or similar.
>
> > Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

Well maybe you just determined the orientation does make a
difference! Taking a wild guess, you have < a quarter or so of the
sky coverage of a level unit and going to be much more sensitive to
relative location of passing globalstar satelites. But again that
might be a good trade off if you want the unit to go with you on a
bail out. I also don't get the concern about cost or people worrying
about the unit being replaced by something better. My only concern was
does it work (in tracking/SPOTcast mode), and clearly it does work
pretty darn well. At that cost you can afford to throw it away and buy
the new model after not too much time. For the cost it is a wonderful
piece of mind for family and friends.

Darryl

[5Z]

On Jun 17, 12:24 pm, Ramy > wrote:
> After over 10 flights with the Spot (still running on the original batteries btw),

I did a test with my unit and with spotcasting 24/7 it ran for over 2
weeks. When the power LED illuminated RED, I ran it for another few
days before calling the test off.

Also, a few times I would forget to take the SPOT out of the car
overnight, so it was in the garage (wood frame construction, 2nd floor
above) and still got many of the messages through.

-Tom