Looking at an old Ercoupe today...

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

So three (of our original six) members are continuing down the road to
finding an old, LSA-compliant airplane. The other three dropped out
because they didn't like the notion of a "family membership" that would
allow multiple pilots on a single club membership. (Not surprisingly, those
were the three single or single-pilot family folks!)

The three remaining partners already own larger aircraft, and have similar
goals:

1. We want something cheap(er) and more fun to fly
2. We want something our kids/spouses can afford to fly
3. We want an LSA in case we lose our medicals.
4. We like grass-roots aviation. No glass panels or IFR -- just low, slow,
and fun.

One of our original members was an Ercoupe fanatic, which got us looking in
that direction. After exploring those old birds, we all found them to
be...cool. Compared to many "legacy LSAs" (I.E.: Taylorcraft, Champs,
etc.) the Ercoupe is more modern, with tricycle gear and metal
construction -- while at the same time (when compared to modern aircraft) it
is quaint and refreshingly simple.

So, we're bringing one into the shop today, to have a closer look-see. (One
of the partners is my A&P, a guy with 45 years of wrenching experience.)
Anyone care to weigh in on the Ercoupe? Here are the particulars:

- 1946 Model 416-C
- 85 HP
- 400 SMOH
- Out of annual for 1 year (the owner has another plane, and a very busy
work schedule; he's sort of lost interest in the plane)
- Flown 30 hours since 2000
- Sat for 15 years prior to 2000 (owned by current owner's uncle)
- All-metal wings (all ADs complied with)
- New upholstery/interior
- Luggage compartment enlargement STC
- New yokes
- New shock donuts
- New tires
- Many new instruments/new panel
- Garmin 295 comes with plane

The radios are...junk. For all intents and purposes, we're considering the
radios to be non-existent. There is a good, newly installed intercom.

Current owner says he's got $28K invested. He's talking $21K. We're
thinking (pending inspection) maybe it's worth $18K.

Any Ercoupe experts out there? Whuddya think?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BDS[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> The three remaining partners already own larger aircraft, and have similar
> goals:
>
> 1. We want something cheap(er) and more fun to fly
> 2. We want something our kids/spouses can afford to fly
> 3. We want an LSA in case we lose our medicals.
> 4. We like grass-roots aviation. No glass panels or IFR -- just low,
slow,
> and fun.

You guys might want to look into flying sailplanes too. It's hard to beat
for the shear joy of being up in the air and making the most out of what
mother nature has in store for you on any particular day.

It can be very inexpensive - you can fly for hours on a $35 tow. It is
exciting and challenging, especially when you start to go out on cross
countries. And, the transition from power to glider is straightforward and
pretty easy really. No written and no medical required.

Ownership costs are low as well. I own a 38:1 glass ship and my most recent
annual was $200. There are no tiedown or hangar fees since you can take
your sailplane home with you in its trailer at the end of each day.

I had my own preconceived notions about what flying sailplanes was all about
for years, and once I actually tried it I found out I was totally wrong.

Of course, you can't use it for transportation or head out for your $500
hamburger like you can in a power plane. But, for recreational flying it's
hard to beat. I think my wife enjoys soaring above the countryside in a
sailplane more than she does flying power, even the Cub (but it's a close
second).

Anyway, food for thought.

Bruce

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-05-15, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Any Ercoupe experts out there? Whuddya think?

I'm not an Ercoupe expert...but I'd recommend looking VERY closely at the
spars, which are reported to have serious problems with intergranular
corrosion. Aside from that, it's probably a good airplane.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

[Steve Foley]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:pkYWj.110933$TT4.34154@attbi_s22...

>
> Current owner says he's got $28K invested. He's talking $21K. We're
> thinking (pending inspection) maybe it's worth $18K.
>
> Any Ercoupe experts out there? Whuddya think?

You should probably offer him the $18K before the inspection, pending the
outcome. He may think he's already giving you $7K and will balk at another
$3K. I did when something similar happened to me.

[Shirl]

"BDS" > wrote:
> You guys might want to look into flying sailplanes too. It's hard to beat
> for the shear joy of being up in the air and making the most out of what
> mother nature has in store for you on any particular day.
>
> It can be very inexpensive - you can fly for hours on a $35 tow.

That's *if* you own your own sailplane.
Where I flew, it was $35 for the tow (minimum), plus $X/hr for rental of
the sailplane.

> It is
> exciting and challenging, especially when you start to go out on cross
> countries. And, the transition from power to glider is straightforward and
> pretty easy really. No written and no medical required.
>
> Ownership costs are low as well. I own a 38:1 glass ship and my most recent
> annual was $200. There are no tiedown or hangar fees since you can take
> your sailplane home with you in its trailer at the end of each day.

You didn't say how much you paid for the 38:1 glass ship!

And it should be mentioned that taking it home with you in the trailer
vs. having a tiedown/hangar means having help and time to take the wings
off and put them back on each time. I've watched this...they don't go
together as quickly as Lego.

> I had my own preconceived notions about what flying sailplanes was all about
> for years, and once I actually tried it I found out I was totally wrong.
>
> Of course, you can't use it for transportation or head out for your $500
> hamburger like you can in a power plane. But, for recreational flying it's
> hard to beat. I think my wife enjoys soaring above the countryside in a
> sailplane more than she does flying power, even the Cub (but it's a close
> second).
>
> Anyway, food for thought.

They are unique and wonderful, quiet, less manic than airplanes. But
there is a downside (depending on how you view it). You can't just go to
the airport, gas up your plane, take off and go from Point-A to Point-B.
You need a way to be launched (towplane/auto tow/winch), at least one or
two other people not going with you to help launch you, and if there
isn't any lift, you won't be going far.

I wouldn't describe it as "very inexpensive", either! It can go either
way. Sometimes, "inexpensive" is hardly the case, with paying for the
tow and the minimum hourly rental for what ends up being a 20-minute
flight (approximate duration of a tow to 3000 feet with no lift). When
learning and doing several "pattern tows" in a row, it can get downright
expensive very quickly.

Shirl (licensed in gliders before airplanes)

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Current owner says he's got $28K invested. He's talking $21K. We're
> thinking (pending inspection) maybe it's worth $18K.
>
> Any Ercoupe experts out there? Whuddya think?

Not an Ercoupe expert but I heard that the LSA complaint C models have
seen a bump in value over the last few years as should be expected.

You know though with the three of you working on it you could probably
build a brand new 601XL from a quick build kit during the summer. for
about the same price.

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> - Luggage compartment enlargement STC

One other thing I noticed. Is that STC the same one that increased the
MGW of the plane? If so it screws up the LSA compliance.

[[email protected]]

On May 15, 9:07 am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> - All-metal wings (all ADs complied with)

I've seen airplanes with a list of "ADs complied with" and on
further investigation I find that many were missed and others not done
properly. The Ercoupe has its share of ADs and some of them are pretty
serious.

Go here and type "Ercoupe" into the Search line for a list:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet

That'll get you plenty of stuff to check on the airplane and also
see if they're in the records as having been done. As well, remember
that the engine and various accessories like fuel pumps, carbs,
magnetos and so forth all might have ADs against them. Some of this
stuff can come as an expensive surprise after purchase.

Dan

[BDS[_2_]]

"Shirl" > wrote

> > It can be very inexpensive - you can fly for hours on a $35 tow.
>
> That's *if* you own your own sailplane.
> Where I flew, it was $35 for the tow (minimum), plus $X/hr for rental of
> the sailplane.

You're right, it depends on where you fly. I happen to own my sailplane,
but the club I'm in also owns 5 various single and 2-place ships and members
use them at no charge beyond annual dues. We also provide flight
instruction to club members at no charge. Dues in this club are $800 to
$1,300 a year depending on the type of membership you have.

> You didn't say how much you paid for the 38:1 glass ship!

There are ships in this class with trailers for around $16k and up. Mine
was around $19k when I bought it a few years ago.

> And it should be mentioned that taking it home with you in the trailer
> vs. having a tiedown/hangar means having help and time to take the wings
> off and put them back on each time. I've watched this...they don't go
> together as quickly as Lego.

I made a one man rig for mine so that I can rig and de-rig it by myself in
about 30 minutes. Some days it takes 45 minutes and a few choice cuss
words.

> They are unique and wonderful, quiet, less manic than airplanes. But
> there is a downside (depending on how you view it). You can't just go to
> the airport, gas up your plane, take off and go from Point-A to Point-B.
> You need a way to be launched (towplane/auto tow/winch), at least one or
> two other people not going with you to help launch you, and if there
> isn't any lift, you won't be going far.

Yes, very true.

> I wouldn't describe it as "very inexpensive", either! It can go either
> way. Sometimes, "inexpensive" is hardly the case, with paying for the
> tow and the minimum hourly rental for what ends up being a 20-minute
> flight (approximate duration of a tow to 3000 feet with no lift). When
> learning and doing several "pattern tows" in a row, it can get downright
> expensive very quickly.

Yes, when you're depending on finding lift to stay up there are no
guarantees. However, you can and will increase the odds of your success
with experience and knowing when to launch and when not to. Still, there
are no guarantees since finding and successfully working lift is not as easy
as turning a key. But then, that's the fun of it!

> Shirl (licensed in gliders before airplanes)

Hope you still get out to enjoy a glider flight once in awhile!

Bruce

[Shirl]

Shirl:
> > Where I flew, it was $35 for the tow (minimum), plus $X/hr
> > for rental of the sailplane.

"BDS" > wrote:
> You're right, it depends on where you fly. I happen to own my sailplane,
> but the club I'm in also owns 5 various single and 2-place ships and members
> use them at no charge beyond annual dues. We also provide flight
> instruction to club members at no charge. Dues in this club are $800 to
> $1,300 a year depending on the type of membership you have.

I think more sailports operate as clubs now. The one I was at did not.
It was $35/tow (I think first 1000 feet?), plus so much per extra
thousand feet. Hourly sailplane rental was in addition to that. And we
did not get flight instruction at no charge -- it was $40/hr at the
time. NOTHING was free, nor did anyone expect it to be; but my point was
that it surely did add up fast unless you were lucky enough to get
something like 1.5 hrs from the first 1500-ft tow in a 1-26, which would
end up being under $60 total. But even on good days, it could take more
than one tow to get in a good flight.

> > You didn't say how much you paid for the 38:1 glass ship!
>
> There are ships in this class with trailers for around $16k and up. Mine
> was around $19k when I bought it a few years ago.

Okay...the glass ships I'd seen were in the $75K range, which to me
seems like a lot considering all the other stuff that is needed before
you even get in the air.

> > And it should be mentioned that taking it home with you in the trailer
> > vs. having a tiedown/hangar means having help and time to take the wings
> > off and put them back on each time. I've watched this...they don't go
> > together as quickly as Lego.
>
> I made a one man rig for mine so that I can rig and de-rig it by myself in
> about 30 minutes. Some days it takes 45 minutes and a few choice cuss
> words.

:-) That's not bad. But it's still a consideration that people should
be aware of.

> > I wouldn't describe it as "very inexpensive", either! It can go either
> > way. Sometimes, "inexpensive" is hardly the case, with paying for the
> > tow and the minimum hourly rental for what ends up being a 20-minute
> > flight (approximate duration of a tow to 3000 feet with no lift). When
> > learning and doing several "pattern tows" in a row, it can get downright
> > expensive very quickly.
>
> Yes, when you're depending on finding lift to stay up there are no
> guarantees. However, you can and will increase the odds of your
> success with experience and knowing when to launch and when not to.

Agreed. I was always amazed at how the "veterans" knew exactly when and
when NOT to go! I always wanted to fly in the morning, and they kept
telling me, "No, it's not 'puddin' yet!" (meaning it was too early in
the day to be "bubbling" up). Waiting an additional 20 minutes could
make all the difference in staying up for an hour or two or coming right
back down.

> Still, there are no guarantees since finding and successfully
> working lift is not as easy as turning a key. But then, that's
> the fun of it!

I know! I agree. It's like a scavenger hunt, looking for something you
can't see, and you can't help but wear a huge smile when you find it! I
love it. It really is all about the enjoyment of flying, huh?

> > Shirl (licensed in gliders before airplanes)
>
> Hope you still get out to enjoy a glider flight once in awhile!

Not as much as I'd like to. I'm a little spoiled by being able wake up
early and just go fly. Hard to stay motivated when you're out of the
habit of waiting around until 2:30 or 3:00 pm. But ... there's nothing
quite like those few seconds just after you release from the tow and it
gets so quiet and peaceful, being at 11,000 feet with the Vario still on
the rise, and ... no possibility of engine failure!
;-)

Shirl

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> You should probably offer him the $18K before the inspection, pending the
> outcome. He may think he's already giving you $7K and will balk at another
> $3K. I did when something similar happened to me.

Spent several hours tearing it apart this afternoon. Lots of little things
wrong, but no deal-killers.

Compressions are good, and -- most importantly -- when they metalized the
wings they zinc-chromated the spar and all the ribs, so there is no
corrosion. The current owner started a complete restoration back in '02,
replaced or repaired many critical parts (landing gear donuts, tires,
top-end overhaul, new interior, new instruments, new glass) and then lost
interest.

It's great to be partnered with my A&P. It sure lends confidence when
you're looking at a 62 year old plane...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[F. Baum]

On May 15, 11:54*am, Shirl > wrote:
>
> Not as much as I'd like to. I'm a little spoiled by being able wake up
> early and just go fly. Hard to stay motivated when you're out of the
> habit of waiting around until 2:30 or 3:00 pm. But ... there's nothing
> quite like those few seconds just after you release from the tow and it
> gets so quiet and peaceful, being at 11,000 feet with the Vario still on
> the rise, and ... no possibility of engine failure!

Another big rush (And one that these stupid flying magazine "Glider ad
on " articles always miss), is flying XC in a sailplane. There is
nothing like being a hundred miles out in the early evening and its
just you, your ship, and the atmosphere. With everything else I have
done in aviation, XC Soaring is one of the most rewarding. My power
plane gathers dust during the soaring season. I would pay twice as
much as I do now to pursue the sport and it would still be worth it.
F. Baum
> ;-)
>
> Shirl

[[email protected]]

Jay,

Why don't you just build a Kitfox? They burn 5gph and can go 110mph.
They are a lot better looking than an old Ercoupe, and the visibility
with plexiglass doors and turtledeck is awesome...

My friend has a Kitfox 7A that we flew to Oshkosh last year. It was
a long flight, but was fun nonetheless. For local flying or short
trips it is a great little plane.

Dean

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> Why don't you just build a Kitfox? They burn 5gph and can go 110mph.
> They are a lot better looking than an old Ercoupe, and the visibility
> with plexiglass doors and turtledeck is awesome...

Whoa, dude -- a Kitfox is better looking than a classic old Ercoupe?

That's just...wrong. An Ercoupe looks like a cross between a
Constellation, a P-38, and a VW bug. It's just....cool!

We're gonna make an offer on it in the next couple of days....
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Brian[_1_]]

<snip>
> That's *if* you own your own sailplane.
> Where I flew, it was $35 for the tow (minimum), plus $X/hr for rental of
> the sailplane.

> You didn't say how much you paid for the 38:1 glass ship!

$11,000 for my 38-1 Sailplane with trailer and Parachute.

>
> And it should be mentioned that taking it home with you in the trailer
> vs. having a tiedown/hangar means having help and time to take the wings
> off and put them back on each time. I've watched this...they don't go
> together as quickly as Lego.
>

There are some that go together that way. Mostly that has to do with
the owners not putting the time and effort into making the trailers
work well.

5 of the 7 gliders I fly with can be assembled and disassembled in
less the 20 minutes. Less time that it will take you to do a good
preflight and fuel your power plane. The require 2 people for only
about 4 minutes to attach the wings the rest can be done by the pilot.

One of my flights this year, I left my house at 1:00pm drove 10
minutes to the airport with my glider in the trailer, I assembled my
glider, launched and was off tow and thermalling at 1:45. for what
turned out to be a 4 hour flight.

>
> They are unique and wonderful, quiet, less manic than airplanes. But
> there is a downside (depending on how you view it). You can't just go to
> the airport, gas up your plane, take off and go from Point-A to Point-B.
> You need a way to be launched (towplane/auto tow/winch), at least one or
> two other people not going with you to help launch you, and if there
> isn't any lift, you won't be going far.

Fair enough. But again with the right equipment only a tow pilot is
required.

>
> I wouldn't describe it as "very inexpensive", either! It can go either
> way. Sometimes, "inexpensive" is hardly the case, with paying for the
> tow and the minimum hourly rental for what ends up being a 20-minute
> flight (approximate duration of a tow to 3000 feet with no lift). When
> learning and doing several "pattern tows" in a row, it can get downright
> expensive very quickly.
>
> Shirl (licensed in gliders before airplanes)

As with nearly any sport you can pay as much as you want. Getting a
glider license can be expensive but if you shop around and are
flexiable it can be inexpensive especially for a transition from
power. I had a freind transition about two years ago for less than
$800.

My annual expenses for about 50 hours of glider time per year have
been less than $1000.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
HP16T

[Shirl]

Shirl:
> > I wouldn't describe it as "very inexpensive", either! It can go either
> > way. Sometimes, "inexpensive" is hardly the case, with paying for the
> > tow and the minimum hourly rental for what ends up being a 20-minute
> > flight (approximate duration of a tow to 3000 feet with no lift). When
> > learning and doing several "pattern tows" in a row, it can get downright
> > expensive very quickly.
> >
> > Shirl (licensed in gliders before airplanes)

Brian:
> As with nearly any sport you can pay as much as you want. Getting a
> glider license can be expensive but if you shop around and are
> flexiable it can be inexpensive especially for a transition from
> power. I had a freind transition about two years ago for less than
> $800.
>
> My annual expenses for about 50 hours of glider time per year have
> been less than $1000.
>
> Brian
> CFIIG/ASEL
> HP16T

I'm not trying to paint gliders negatively -- I agree that they're
great, and they *do* enhance power flying. But realistically, not
everyone has even ONE sailport within a reasonable drive from their home
with a vehicle, trailer and today's gasoline prices, let alone being
able to "shop around", and even living in Arizona, 4-hour flights are
possible a few months of the year, but they still don't happen with
*every* launch -- sometimes takes at least a couple of launches to
actually go soaring, and if you pay a minimum of $35/tow, that's at
least $70 for two launches and you may or may not find enough lift to go
soaring for an hour or two. Again, not knocking it at all...just saying
from what I saw at the facilities here (3 gliderports, each about an
hour drive in different directions), 50 hours for $1000 would definitely
have been the exception to the rule.

[[email protected]]

On May 16, 7:32*pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > Why don't you just build a Kitfox? *They burn 5gph and can go 110mph.
> > They are a lot better looking than an old Ercoupe, and the visibility
> > with plexiglass doors and turtledeck is awesome...
>
> Whoa, dude -- a Kitfox is better looking than a classic old Ercoupe?
>
> That's just...wrong. * An Ercoupe looks like a cross between a
> Constellation, a P-38, and a VW bug. *It's just....cool!
>
> We're gonna make an offer on it in the next couple of days....
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

I have always thought they look pretty ugly myself. An Ercoupe
doesn't look anywhere near as nice as a P-38 or a Connie.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:pkYWj.110933$TT4.34154@attbi_s22:

> So three (of our original six) members are continuing down the road to
> finding an old, LSA-compliant airplane. The other three dropped out
> because they didn't like the notion of a "family membership" that
> would allow multiple pilots on a single club membership. (Not
> surprisingly, those were the three single or single-pilot family
> folks!)
>
> The three remaining partners already own larger aircraft, and have
> similar goals:
>
> 1. We want something cheap(er) and more fun to fly
> 2. We want something our kids/spouses can afford to fly
> 3. We want an LSA in case we lose our medicals.
> 4. We like grass-roots aviation. No glass panels or IFR -- just low,
> slow, and fun.
>
> One of our original members was an Ercoupe fanatic, which got us
> looking in that direction. After exploring those old birds, we all
> found them to be...cool. Compared to many "legacy LSAs" (I.E.:
> Taylorcraft, Champs, etc.) the Ercoupe is more modern, with tricycle
> gear and metal construction -- while at the same time (when compared
> to modern aircraft) it is quaint and refreshingly simple.
>
> So, we're bringing one into the shop today, to have a closer look-see.
> (One of the partners is my A&P, a guy with 45 years of wrenching
> experience.) Anyone care to weigh in on the Ercoupe? Here are the
> particulars:
>
> - 1946 Model 416-C
> - 85 HP
> - 400 SMOH
> - Out of annual for 1 year (the owner has another plane, and a very
> busy work schedule; he's sort of lost interest in the plane)
> - Flown 30 hours since 2000
> - Sat for 15 years prior to 2000 (owned by current owner's uncle)
> - All-metal wings (all ADs complied with)
> - New upholstery/interior
> - Luggage compartment enlargement STC
> - New yokes
> - New shock donuts
> - New tires
> - Many new instruments/new panel
> - Garmin 295 comes with plane
>
> The radios are...junk. For all intents and purposes, we're
> considering the radios to be non-existent. There is a good, newly
> installed intercom.
>
> Current owner says he's got $28K invested. He's talking $21K. We're
> thinking (pending inspection) maybe it's worth $18K.
>
> Any Ercoupe experts out there? Whuddya think?

Another antique is going to be rendered environmentally friendly.


Bertie

[Dylan Smith]

On 2008-05-15, Shirl > wrote:
> You didn't say how much you paid for the 38:1 glass ship!

And to have fun in gliders it doesn't have to be a 38:1 glass ship. I
imagine Iowa has many great thermic days, where going cross country in
an old wood and fabric Ka-8 (which will cost around 4 grand for one in
mint condition, much less for an average one) is not all that difficult
and a lot of fun.

I just did my silver duration in a 38:1 glass ship though, in Scotland
of all places, in thermal lift - further north than the entire
continental US, and much of populated Canada. (And the 38:1 glass ships
don't have to cost the earth - I did my silver duration, which is 5
hours soaring flight, in an ASW-19 that's 30 years old).

Some pictures:
http://www.alioth.net/pics/Aboyne-May-2008/Aboyne-May-2008-Pages/Image25.html
http://www.alioth.net/pics/Aboyne-May-2008/Aboyne-May-2008-Pages/Image31.html

The glider certainly doesn't look 30 years old!

> I wouldn't describe it as "very inexpensive", either! It can go either
> way. Sometimes, "inexpensive" is hardly the case, with paying for the
> tow and the minimum hourly rental for what ends up being a 20-minute
> flight (approximate duration of a tow to 3000 feet with no lift).

But inexpensive compared to power planes. My 5 hour flight was much
cheaper (in a club ship, not one I owned) than flying 5 hours in a
relatively modest powered aircraft. If you live somewhere with lots of
soarable days, it's a very worthy consideration if you want an aircraft
if your destination is "up", or your destination is a cross country
flight just for the sake of making one. If you already know how to fly
then it doesn't take long to get a glider private. And it *really*
teaches you about weather and airmass - many 25 hour glider pilots have
better appreciation of weather and airmass than 2500 hour power
pilots...and if you're also a power pilot, this translates to better
skill as a power pilot.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

wrote in news:90a7865a-7ada-4812-ac6b-221e1bba3ad8
@w4g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

> Jay,
>
> Why don't you just build a Kitfox? They burn 5gph and can go 110mph.
> They are a lot better looking than an old Ercoupe, and the visibility
> with plexiglass doors and turtledeck is awesome...
>
> My friend has a Kitfox 7A that we flew to Oshkosh last year. It was
> a long flight, but was fun nonetheless. For local flying or short
> trips it is a great little plane.
>
> Dean
>

It's a taildragger. Until they start installing rollout stabilising
gyros in them , jay couldn't be interested.



Bertie

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> I'm not trying to paint gliders negatively -- I agree that they're
> great, and they *do* enhance power flying. But realistically, not
> everyone has even ONE sailport within a reasonable drive from their home

That's been our dilemma. We wanted Joe (and now Becca) to do gliders at age
14, in (relatively) nearby Muscatine, IA, which has a small glider
operation -- but getting there is a 45 minute drive, minimum. We simply
don't have 90 minutes in our day to waste sitting in a car.

Mary and I experienced soaring over in Ames, IA, and had a wonderful time --
but that's so far away that we had to fly to get there. Kinda makes soaring
less-than-cost-effective...

No, buying an old Ercoupe is a great solution for affordable LSA flying.
Fuel efficient, burns car gas, has a canopy you can hang your arm out of in
flight. Low, slow, and we can park in the "Antique/Classic" section, if we
want to...

We'll see how negotiations go. Here are some pix we took of it in April, if
you're interested: http://www.alexisparkinn.com/ercoupe_n2572h.htm

It would sure be pretty if the guy hadn't let bird crap sit on the bare
aluminum for so many years. Now, the only solution is to paint it...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

I have always thought they look pretty ugly myself. An Ercoupe
doesn't look anywhere near as nice as a P-38 or a Connie.

Well, it's got two tails and a canopy. And a mighty 85 horsepower
Continental!

:-)

3.8 gallons per hour, baby. That's what I'm talkin' about. (Atlas burns 25
gph at full throttle...) Hell, flying it will actually SAVE me money!
(Heh, heh, heh.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Noel]

In article <hhBXj.167793$yE1.58683@attbi_s21>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> That's been our dilemma. We wanted Joe (and now Becca) to do gliders at age
> 14, in (relatively) nearby Muscatine, IA, which has a small glider
> operation -- but getting there is a 45 minute drive, minimum. We simply
> don't have 90 minutes in our day to waste sitting in a car.

um, driving somewhere in order to go flying isn't a waste...

and perhaps using motorcycles as the mode of transportation
would be fun (side car?)

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Sat, 17 May 2008 13:45:14 GMT, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> 3.8 gallons per hour, baby. That's what I'm talkin' about. (Atlas burns 25
> gph at full throttle...) Hell, flying it will actually SAVE me money!
> (Heh, heh, heh.)

Jay, as someone else mentioned, many Ercoupe 415Cs have had the STC to raise the
gross weight and are thus no longer Sport Pilot eligible. Have you verified
that this isn't one of them?

http://www.sportpilot.org/questions/afmviewfaq.asp?faqid=11

Ron Wanttaja

[Shirl]

Shirl:
> > I'm not trying to paint gliders negatively -- I agree that they're
> > great, and they *do* enhance power flying. But realistically, not
> > everyone has even ONE sailport within a reasonable drive from
> > their home

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> That's been our dilemma. We wanted Joe (and now Becca) to do
> gliders at age 14, in (relatively) nearby Muscatine, IA, which has a
> small glider operation -- but getting there is a 45 minute drive,
> minimum. We simply don't have 90 minutes in our day to waste
> sitting in a car.

Not to mention, with current fuel costs and the number of times you'd
have to go out there and back for them to get their foundation in
gliders, how much that drive would add to the expense.

Curious ... is the sailport in Muscatine run as a club? The one of three
sailports here that was run as a club requires members to each take
their turn "working" in various slots at the facility. It's great in the
respect that everyone is contributing, there is a "community" spirit
there (there were *60* people in attendance at a safety meeting!), and
with various people having specific jobs, the place runs like a Swiss
watch. BUT, again, not everyone has that kind of time to donate in
exchange for reduced rates, and at some point, that exchange becomes a
wash (taking into consideration the time and costs just getting there
and back).

> Mary and I experienced soaring over in Ames, IA, and had a wonderful time --
> but that's so far away that we had to fly to get there. Kinda makes soaring
> less-than-cost-effective...

Exactly. I learned to fly in gliders, and at the time, I *had* time to
make the drive and gas was half what it is now. But it was just under an
hour drive each way. I have never added up how much it cost me to get my
private pilot license in gliders -- part of me doesn't want to know! But
even without adding it up, I can say that while I appreciate the things
I learned that I could bring with me to power flight, it was hardly
"inexpensive".

> No, buying an old Ercoupe is a great solution for affordable LSA flying.
> Fuel efficient, burns car gas, has a canopy you can hang your arm out of in
> flight. Low, slow, and we can park in the "Antique/Classic" section, if we
> want to...

My glider instructor is a huge Ercoupe fan and a LS instructor and
examiner. We fly once/week in my Varga, and whenever we see an Ercoupe,
he goes crazy!

> We'll see how negotiations go. Here are some pix we took of it in April, if
> you're interested: http://www.alexisparkinn.com/ercoupe_n2572h.htm

I see you have the panel off ... you going to redo the whole panel? I
just did that with my Varga while it was down for the engine overhaul.
It had that old "Ford Torino" wood-grain panel that I changed to
military power-coated gray. Big improvement (IMO).

> It would sure be pretty if the guy hadn't let bird crap sit on the bare
> aluminum for so many years. Now, the only solution is to paint it...

A friend recently painted his formerly polished aluminum plane. It was
beautiful as polished aluminum, but REALLY labor intensive, to the point
where he blamed his rotator cuff on that continuous maintenance! Pretty
as the polished aluminum is, it would drive me crazy to have to worry
about every little fingerprint and follow people around with a cloth
whenever anyone is near the plane. Besides, it would be fun to be able
to CHOOSE a paint scheme. Any ideas?

Shirl

[RST Engineering]

Jay ...

One of the problems is that you have the same mindset that 95% of Americans
have. "We have to drive them over there."

In the first place, if you tell me that Greyhound (or ilk) doesn't go
between Iowa City and Muscatine, I'd find it hard to believe. Or other
public transportation.

In the second place, if you don't have to make the trip and wait around for
the lesson to be over, Becca can get multiple flights in a single day. When
I was in the glider game, I saw young kids (who seem to be much more
adaptive and quicker on the pickup than old geezers) solo in gliders at the
end of their second day.

Third and last, I'm sure that you are in the Iowa Hotel Club (or whatever
you call it). If members have a swapsie policy (you stay at my place and I
stay at your place swap) then Becca could do ten flights in two days with an
overnighter in between relatively easily.

Just some random thoughts, mindya.

Jim

--
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
without accepting it."
--Aristotle


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:hhBXj.167793$yE1.58683@attbi_s21...


>
> That's been our dilemma. We wanted Joe (and now Becca) to do gliders at
> age 14, in (relatively) nearby Muscatine, IA, which has a small glider
> operation -- but getting there is a 45 minute drive, minimum. We simply
> don't have 90 minutes in our day to waste sitting in a car.
>

[Shirl]

"RST Engineering" > wrote:
> One of the problems is that you have the same mindset
> that 95% of Americans have. "We have to drive them
> over there."

But since most Americans aren't just sitting around doing nothing 98% of
the time, *is* a real consideration. Sometimes 14-year-olds have
wealthy, retired grandparents that are able and willing to spend
half-a-day or more to the scenario Jay described, but many do not have
that luxury.

> In the first place, if you tell me that Greyhound (or ilk) doesn't go
> between Iowa City and Muscatine, I'd find it hard to believe. Or other
> public transportation.

I don't know where you are, but I've yet to see a sailport in an area of
town that is on any Greyhound route. There are 3 sailports each within
1-2 hours drive (in a car) from me, but the nearest bus stop to any of
them would still leave me 5-8 miles away from the facility. Most
gliderports aren't right in the middle of town on the bus route.

> In the second place, if you don't have to make the trip and wait around for
> the lesson to be over, Becca can get multiple flights in a single day. When
> I was in the glider game, I saw young kids (who seem to be much more
> adaptive and quicker on the pickup than old geezers) solo in gliders at the
> end of their second day.
>
> Third and last, I'm sure that you are in the Iowa Hotel Club (or whatever
> you call it). If members have a swapsie policy (you stay at my place and I
> stay at your place swap) then Becca could do ten flights in two days with an
> overnighter in between relatively easily.

And then what? Even if Becca could get her Private Pilot Glider in those
two days (doubtful, and that's not an insult to Becca, Jay), if the
place is that far away and Becca doesn't drive yet and Jay doesn't have
time to take her there and back, how does she fly often enough to
maintain her skills?

I'm just saying that it boils down to the bottom line of almost
everything -- is it convenient? affordable? time-permitting?

Most of us will make sacrifices in any or all of those areas to do
something we're passionate about, but it's also not uncommon for any one
of those considerations to be significant enough to make it un-do-able.

[RST Engineering]

>
> I don't know where you are, but I've yet to see a sailport in an area of
> town that is on any Greyhound route. There are 3 sailports each within
> 1-2 hours drive (in a car) from me, but the nearest bus stop to any of
> them would still leave me 5-8 miles away from the facility. Most
> gliderports aren't right in the middle of town on the bus route.

And most gliderport operators, sensing money in the air for glider rental,
would probably be thrilled to give Becca a ride from the bus stop to the
airport.


>
> And then what? Even if Becca could get her Private Pilot Glider in those
> two days (doubtful, and that's not an insult to Becca, Jay), if the
> place is that far away and Becca doesn't drive yet and Jay doesn't have
> time to take her there and back, how does she fly often enough to
> maintain her skills?

Nobody said anything about Becca getting her gliderguider private in two
days. As a matter of fact, impossible. Forty hours is forty hours and even
with minimal pottybreak downtime, forty hours in forty-eight hours is nigh
impossible. However, string eight or ten of the twofers together over
summer break you'll be able to come damned close.


>
> I'm just saying that it boils down to the bottom line of almost
> everything -- is it convenient? affordable? time-permitting?

It can be made so.

Jim

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> Jay, as someone else mentioned, many Ercoupe 415Cs have had the STC to
> raise the
> gross weight and are thus no longer Sport Pilot eligible. Have you
> verified
> that this isn't one of them?

Yep. Another wonderful thing about partnering with an A&P/IA...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> um, driving somewhere in order to go flying isn't a waste...

With $4/gallon gas, I beg to differ.

> and perhaps using motorcycles as the mode of transportation
> would be fun (side car?)

Now that would sure be fun -- but we're still up against that time
constraint. My schedule simply doesn't permit 1.5 empty hours anymore...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> A friend recently painted his formerly polished aluminum plane. It was
> beautiful as polished aluminum, but REALLY labor intensive, to the point
> where he blamed his rotator cuff on that continuous maintenance! Pretty
> as the polished aluminum is, it would drive me crazy to have to worry
> about every little fingerprint and follow people around with a cloth
> whenever anyone is near the plane. Besides, it would be fun to be able
> to CHOOSE a paint scheme. Any ideas?

Plenty. But first we have to buy it!

The seller is out of town for the weekend, so we've got a few days to hammer
out the paperwork in the flying club we're setting up...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> In the first place, if you tell me that Greyhound (or ilk) doesn't go
> between Iowa City and Muscatine, I'd find it hard to believe. Or other
> public transportation.

Nope. No public transportation (that I know of) between here and there.
(And, quite frankly, I wouldn't let Becca ride a Greyhound bus alone at age
14 anyway...)

> Third and last, I'm sure that you are in the Iowa Hotel Club (or whatever
> you call it). If members have a swapsie policy (you stay at my place and
> I stay at your place swap) then Becca could do ten flights in two days
> with an overnighter in between relatively easily.

Sadly, stupidly, there is no such thing. I've talked to our Chamber of
Commerce about setting something up, but the friggin' gummint has everyone
running scared about the tax ramifications of barter.

> Just some random thoughts, mindya.

Appreciate it, too. I'm afraid she'll just have to wait and do her Private
when she's a wizened old 16-year-old, just like her brother...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Shirl]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> Nope. No public transportation (that I know of) between here and there.
> (And, quite frankly, I wouldn't let Becca ride a Greyhound bus alone at age
> 14 anyway...)

As I mom, that was my first thought as well...not to mention having
"someone" from the sailport picking up and dropping off a 14-year-old
girl -- you arrange for the owner of the place to do that, but he's busy
so he sends someone else, etc. And on the other side of it, in today's
times, would YOU go to the bus stop to pick up a 14-year-old girl?
Creepy, and off topic, but part of the proposed scenario, nonetheless.

> Appreciate it, too. I'm afraid she'll just have to wait and do her
> Private when she's a wizened old 16-year-old, just like her brother...

And if SHE really wants it, it's not as if 16 is an old lady! And she
could drive herself.

[Bill Denton[_2_]]

However, it should be noted that there are some Ercoupe STC's that will
allow a gross weight of 1320 lbs, thus remaining sport pilot legal...



"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:PNLXj.114467$TT4.57548@attbi_s22...
>> Jay, as someone else mentioned, many Ercoupe 415Cs have had the STC to
>> raise the
>> gross weight and are thus no longer Sport Pilot eligible. Have you
>> verified
>> that this isn't one of them?
>
> Yep. Another wonderful thing about partnering with an A&P/IA...
>
> ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Brian[_1_]]

I certainly agree that soaring is not for everyone.

It certainly has the disadvantage that you can't just drive out the
airport and do a four hour flight any day of the week. On the other
had 90% of my flights are in excess of 3 hours. However due to my work
schedule I only fly a few days a year from my local airport. So I
often take a week or 2 weeks off to go to some Ideal soaring sites
for soaring contests or Safaris. On these trips I can easily do 25
hours per week of flying.

Accessablity is also another issue in that you often have to drive
quite a ways to get to soaring site. I don't live anywhere near a
glider port, I would have to drive over 300 miles to rent a glider.
But we have arranged for years with our local FBO's to get glider
tows. Soaring isn't for people that can not make time for it. A
soaring flight is often an all day event. As with most things though
it is the simple trade off of time vs Money. For getting a glider
rating.. If you don't have time you pay your money and go to a
commerical operation to get you rating in a few days. If you don't
have money you take your time and commute to a club operation where
you can volunteer you time and take a few months to get you rating.
For Soaring... If you don't have money you either rent or buy a
$7,000 glider and commute to a gliderport to glider tows. If you
don't have time you buy a $80,000 motor glider and self launch from
your local airport.

Of course there all kinds of compromises and and variations of in
between costs.

Jay could easily fly sailplanes if he wanted to. He already has an
adequate tow plane and a tow pilot available. There would be some
initial costs or course. But he has decided this not what he really
wants to do at this time, and that is just fine.

I can also agree that getting a private license in a glider can be an
expensive. In fact I often recommend prospective glider pilots to get
either time in power or a Private power license so they can transition
to gliders rather than do it from scratch. I have often figured that a
person could get a glider and power rating for about the same cost as
getting just a glider rating. There are exceptions of course. I train
many more power pilots than I do glider pilots.

My pet peeve is when both glider and power pilots say the flying
gliders is to expensive. These are the same power pilots that then go
get into a $60,000 airplane. The argument I often see from glider
pilots is that if we can afford a glider then we should be able to
afford a Transponder or 406 ELT or ADS B etc. Many of these cost more
than my Annual Soaring Budget and often more the 10% of the value of
my glider.
As I previously stated Soaring can be expensive but it doesn't have to
be. It does usually require more time commitment than power aircraft.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

[Brian[_1_]]

On May 17, 7:55*pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > In the first place, if you tell me that Greyhound (or ilk) doesn't go
> > between Iowa City and Muscatine, I'd find it hard to believe. *Or other
> > public transportation.
>
> Nope. No public transportation (that I know of) between here and there.
> (And, quite frankly, I wouldn't let Becca ride a Greyhound bus alone at age
> 14 anyway...)
>

To bad, But if you/she really wanted to do it you could cut the
commute time down a bunch by taking Atlas or the Ercoupe. As noted she
could probably solo in a few days. But then of couse you probably
don't need any excuses to go flying.

Brian

[Shirl]

Brian > wrote:
[snip all good stuff]
> My pet peeve is when both glider and power pilots say the flying
> gliders is to expensive.
>
> As I previously stated Soaring can be expensive but it doesn't have to
> be. It does usually require more time commitment than power aircraft.

I agree with everything you said.
One comment: My pet peeve is when people say glider flying is
inexpensive without adding any of the clarification that has been
discussed in this thread. As outlined, you can make it inexpensive *IF*
you have the time *and* some of the options discussed available to you;
if not, staying current *can be* an significant expense. None of that
negates its value, of course, but again, depends how much time and $ a
person can/is willing to spend for it.

[Longworth[_1_]]

On May 15, 11:07*am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> - 400 SMOH
> - Out of annual for 1 year (the owner has another plane, and a very busy
> work schedule; he's sort of lost interest in the plane)
> - Flown 30 hours since 2000
> - Sat for 15 years prior to 2000 (owned by current owner's uncle)

The red flag for me is the age of the engine. It sat for 15 years
then was flown for only 30 hrs in 8 years. It had 400 hrs SMOH with
only 30hrs in the last 23 years so this MOH was done probably over 300
moons ago. Of course I am not an A&P but having to overhaul the engine
of our Cardinal after finding 3 cracked cylinders in the first annual
(after about 100hrs), I am now quite leery of old engines. Even if
the compression checks are good, I'd add the cost of the new engine to
the offered price.

Hai Longworth

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> The red flag for me is the age of the engine. It sat for 15 years
> then was flown for only 30 hrs in 8 years. It had 400 hrs SMOH

Me, too. One thing I forgot to mention is that it had a top end overhaul in
2002, when it was brought out of its 15-year sleep.

Even so, we have adjusted our offer to reflect a mid-time engine rather than
a 400 hour engine. We also understand that the camshaft could be a rusted
POS that trashes the engine in the next 40 hours.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:el6Yj.170137$yE1.10000@attbi_s21:


We also understand that the pilot
> could be a rusted POS that trashes the engine in the next 40 hours.



There. i fixored it.


Bertie

[Maxwell[_2_]]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in
> news:el6Yj.170137$yE1.10000@attbi_s21:
>
>
> We also understand that the pilot
>> could be a rusted POS that trashes the engine in the next 40 hours.
>
>
>
> There. i fixored it.
>
>
> Bertie

There, another lame forgery.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in news:AieYj.232$UE2.38
@newsfe24.lga:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in
>> news:el6Yj.170137$yE1.10000@attbi_s21:
>>
>>
>> We also understand that the pilot
>>> could be a rusted POS that trashes the engine in the next 40 hours.
>>
>>
>>
>> There. i fixored it.
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
> There, another lame forgery.
>
>
>

There another clueless fjukktard who doesn't know his ass from his
elbow.



Bertie

[Maxwell[_2_]]

In article >, Bertie the
Bunyip says...

> "Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in news:AieYj.232$UE2.38
> @newsfe24.lga:
>
> >
> > "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in
> >> news:el6Yj.170137$yE1.10000@attbi_s21:
> >>
> >>
> >> We also understand that the pilot
> >>> could be a rusted POS that trashes the engine in the next 40 hours.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> There. i fixored it.
> >>
> >>
> >> Bertie
> >
> > There, another lame forgery.
> >
> >
> >
>
> There another clueless fjukktard who doesn't know his ass from his
> elbow.

I wouldn't let this klown near a kite, never mind a plane...

--

"Tis an ill wind that blows no minds"

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Maxwell <luv2^fly99@live.^com> wrote in news:MPG.229b1f7c74fcf0ae98b046
@notbxpats.edu:

> In article >, Bertie the
> Bunyip says...
>
>> "Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in news:AieYj.232$UE2.38
>> @newsfe24.lga:
>>
>> >
>> > "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in
>> >> news:el6Yj.170137$yE1.10000@attbi_s21:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> We also understand that the pilot
>> >>> could be a rusted POS that trashes the engine in the next 40
hours.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> There. i fixored it.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Bertie
>> >
>> > There, another lame forgery.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> There another clueless fjukktard who doesn't know his ass from his
>> elbow.
>
> I wouldn't let this klown near a kite, never mind a plane...
>

I don't think anyone does, actually.


Bertie