Senior Project, recording equipment, and economic stimulus.

[[email protected]]

RAS,

I graduate with a degree in Aerospace Engineering in December. Ive
decided to entitle my senior project: "Flight Test Evaluation of a
Cherokee II Sailplane"

It makes perfect sense to me that the culmination of my education
should involve me flying my glider, and perhaps allowing me to improve
my flying (yea right). Mostly, I just want it to involve some
flying. I had a short chat with Dick Johnson at the SSA Convention
about his technique. He mentioned his stopwatch method that has
worked for years, but also said that on his most recent flights he has
taken a flight recorder with him and the results matched pretty well.

Id like to generate the drag polar for my glider. I talked to my
project advisor briefly and he had me check out http://www.eagletreesystems.com/
which makes data recorders for RC aircraft. The cool thing is that I
could get airspeed and altitude readouts for the entire flight, and
then find the polar from that.

President Bush will be mailing me a pretty nice economic stimulus
check at the end of the month. I plan to do my civic duty and spend
it. are there any igc approved loggers that i could use not only for
records/badges/OLC etc. but also that would give me the flight
information that I need to do my senior project?

You all are the experts on the logger stuff. Ive breezed over the
million post threads so it must be so. What do you recommend?

[Adrian Jansen]

wrote:

> Id like to generate the drag polar for my glider. I talked to my
> project advisor briefly and he had me check out http://www.eagletreesystems.com/
> which makes data recorders for RC aircraft. The cool thing is that I
> could get airspeed and altitude readouts for the entire flight, and
> then find the polar from that.
>

The data is easily available from almost any modern vario and GPS.
It would be wonderful if it were that simple. Unfortunately the air you
are flying through moves too.


--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
Design Engineer J & K Micro Systems
Microcomputer solutions for industrial control
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.

[[email protected]]

On May 23, 6:50 pm, Adrian Jansen > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Id like to generate the drag polar for my glider. I talked to my
> > project advisor briefly and he had me check outhttp://www.eagletreesystems.com/
> > which makes data recorders for RC aircraft. The cool thing is that I
> > could get airspeed and altitude readouts for the entire flight, and
> > then find the polar from that.
>
> The data is easily available from almost any modern vario and GPS.
> It would be wonderful if it were that simple. Unfortunately the air you
> are flying through moves too.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
> Design Engineer J & K Micro Systems
> Microcomputer solutions for industrial control
> Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.

obviously the air moves. flights would have to be done just after
sunrise or near sunset when the air was the most calm. test would be
repeated to try to work out errors. so which loggers will provide the
data and fit the badge/record/OLC requirement for the best price?

[5Z]

On May 23, 6:05 pm, wrote:
> repeated to try to work out errors. so which loggers will provide the
> data and fit the badge/record/OLC requirement for the best price?

All this off the top of my head as I sit at work waiting for a test to
finish....

I've heard the 302 will spew a raw data stream from all sensors to the
serial port after one issues a magic command. The IGC file does not
include any of this info though.

I think the SN-10 is capable of adding airspeed info to the IGC file,
but it is not IGC certified FR.

Borgelt B50 can mix airspeed info into a FR's data stream for
consumption by PDA software.

It's possible that a manufacturer might provide you with a firmware
"upgrade" that you could use for data capture for your project, then
you could reinstall the official firmware for badge flying.

-Tom

[Henryk Birecki]

wrote:

>RAS,
>
>I graduate with a degree in Aerospace Engineering in December. Ive
>decided to entitle my senior project: "Flight Test Evaluation of a
>Cherokee II Sailplane"
>
>It makes perfect sense to me that the culmination of my education
>should involve me flying my glider, and perhaps allowing me to improve
>my flying (yea right). Mostly, I just want it to involve some
>flying. I had a short chat with Dick Johnson at the SSA Convention
>about his technique. He mentioned his stopwatch method that has
>worked for years, but also said that on his most recent flights he has
>taken a flight recorder with him and the results matched pretty well.
>
>Id like to generate the drag polar for my glider. I talked to my
>project advisor briefly and he had me check out http://www.eagletreesystems.com/
>which makes data recorders for RC aircraft. The cool thing is that I
>could get airspeed and altitude readouts for the entire flight, and
>then find the polar from that.
>
>President Bush will be mailing me a pretty nice economic stimulus
>check at the end of the month. I plan to do my civic duty and spend
>it. are there any igc approved loggers that i could use not only for
>records/badges/OLC etc. but also that would give me the flight
>information that I need to do my senior project?
>
>You all are the experts on the logger stuff. Ive breezed over the
>million post threads so it must be so. What do you recommend?

Well, you have a problem. First of all the only loger I know of that
will satisfy your desire to be nice to Bush and provide some relevant
information is Cambridge Instruments CAI302 All others are not US
made. Second of all they are designed to be IGC loggers so they do not
log things you want. You will need to combine logger and some NMEA
logging software. You can roll your own, or use GPS_LOG WinCE which
will provide a log of data you want, but not in IGC format (coma
delimited). Second problem is that you need to get a logger that
provides you with output of IAS. Cambridge CAI302 provides output of
true speed, but no temperature data (?). At best you will have to
altitude compensate TAS to IAS. Borgelt devices, some LX navigation
devices and I believe Westerboer 921 do provide IAS.

Hope that helps.
Henryk Birecki

[Darryl Ramm]

On May 23, 6:29 pm, Henryk Birecki > wrote:
> wrote:
> >RAS,
>
> >I graduate with a degree in Aerospace Engineering in December. Ive
> >decided to entitle my senior project: "Flight Test Evaluation of a
> >Cherokee II Sailplane"
>
> >It makes perfect sense to me that the culmination of my education
> >should involve me flying my glider, and perhaps allowing me to improve
> >my flying (yea right). Mostly, I just want it to involve some
> >flying. I had a short chat with Dick Johnson at the SSA Convention
> >about his technique. He mentioned his stopwatch method that has
> >worked for years, but also said that on his most recent flights he has
> >taken a flight recorder with him and the results matched pretty well.
>
> >Id like to generate the drag polar for my glider. I talked to my
> >project advisor briefly and he had me check outhttp://www.eagletreesystems.com/
> >which makes data recorders for RC aircraft. The cool thing is that I
> >could get airspeed and altitude readouts for the entire flight, and
> >then find the polar from that.
>
> >President Bush will be mailing me a pretty nice economic stimulus
> >check at the end of the month. I plan to do my civic duty and spend
> >it. are there any igc approved loggers that i could use not only for
> >records/badges/OLC etc. but also that would give me the flight
> >information that I need to do my senior project?
>
> >You all are the experts on the logger stuff. Ive breezed over the
> >million post threads so it must be so. What do you recommend?
>
> Well, you have a problem. First of all the only loger I know of that
> will satisfy your desire to be nice to Bush and provide some relevant
> information is Cambridge Instruments CAI302 All others are not US
> made. Second of all they are designed to be IGC loggers so they do not
> log things you want. You will need to combine logger and some NMEA
> logging software. You can roll your own, or use GPS_LOG WinCE which
> will provide a log of data you want, but not in IGC format (coma
> delimited). Second problem is that you need to get a logger that
> provides you with output of IAS. Cambridge CAI302 provides output of
> true speed, but no temperature data (?). At best you will have to
> altitude compensate TAS to IAS. Borgelt devices, some LX navigation
> devices and I believe Westerboer 921 do provide IAS.
>
> Hope that helps.
> Henryk Birecki

As Tom says the C 302 can dump data in LOG mode, LOG 12 gives you
everything in raw format but you have to process/decode yourself. Data
rate is fixed at 1 sample per second. See the dataport guide at
http://www.cambridge-aero.com/300series.htm.

Darryl

[Eric Greenwell]

Henryk Birecki wrote:
> Cambridge CAI302 provides output of
> true speed, but no temperature data (?).

The 302 will output outside air temperature.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Henryk Birecki]

Eric Greenwell > wrote:

>Henryk Birecki wrote:
>> Cambridge CAI302 provides output of
>> true speed, but no temperature data (?).
>
>The 302 will output outside air temperature.

In a fashion. It outputs it as some raw number in LOG 12 mode, but
unless you know all the calibration data, this mode does not do much
good.

Henryk

[Eric Greenwell]

Henryk Birecki wrote:
> Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
>> Henryk Birecki wrote:
>>> Cambridge CAI302 provides output of
>>> true speed, but no temperature data (?).
>> The 302 will output outside air temperature.
>
> In a fashion. It outputs it as some raw number in LOG 12 mode, but
> unless you know all the calibration data, this mode does not do much
> good.

Well, darn it, I was hoping for some easy way to display it on my PDA. I
can look at it on the 302 itself, but it's 10 button presses and 5 knob
clicks to get to it. A real nuisance.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Henryk Birecki wrote:
>> Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>>
>>> Henryk Birecki wrote:
>>>> Cambridge CAI302 provides output of
>>>> true speed, but no temperature data (?).
>>> The 302 will output outside air temperature.
>>
>> In a fashion. It outputs it as some raw number in LOG 12 mode, but
>> unless you know all the calibration data, this mode does not do much
>> good.
>
> Well, darn it, I was hoping for some easy way to display it on my PDA. I
> can look at it on the 302 itself, but it's 10 button presses and 5 knob
> clicks to get to it. A real nuisance.
>
The other thing the 302 fails to output in normal operating mode is
indicated airspeed (it provides only true airspeed), which one would
definitely want for flight test evaluation purposes...

Marc

[[email protected]]

On May 24, 12:36 am, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > Henryk Birecki wrote:
> >> Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
> >>> Henryk Birecki wrote:
> >>>> Cambridge CAI302 provides output of
> >>>> true speed, but no temperature data (?).
> >>> The 302 will output outside air temperature.
>
> >> In a fashion. It outputs it as some raw number in LOG 12 mode, but
> >> unless you know all the calibration data, this mode does not do much
> >> good.
>
> > Well, darn it, I was hoping for some easy way to display it on my PDA. I
> > can look at it on the 302 itself, but it's 10 button presses and 5 knob
> > clicks to get to it. A real nuisance.
>
> The other thing the 302 fails to output in normal operating mode is
> indicated airspeed (it provides only true airspeed), which one would
> definitely want for flight test evaluation purposes...
>
> Marc

true, but if we have TAS, outside air temp, and altitude, its a pretty
easy conversion, right?

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

wrote:
> On May 24, 12:36 am, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
>> Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> Henryk Birecki wrote:
>>>> Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>>>>> Henryk Birecki wrote:
>>>>>> Cambridge CAI302 provides output of
>>>>>> true speed, but no temperature data (?).
>>>>> The 302 will output outside air temperature.
>>>> In a fashion. It outputs it as some raw number in LOG 12 mode, but
>>>> unless you know all the calibration data, this mode does not do much
>>>> good.
>>> Well, darn it, I was hoping for some easy way to display it on my PDA. I
>>> can look at it on the 302 itself, but it's 10 button presses and 5 knob
>>> clicks to get to it. A real nuisance.
>> The other thing the 302 fails to output in normal operating mode is
>> indicated airspeed (it provides only true airspeed), which one would
>> definitely want for flight test evaluation purposes...
>>
>> Marc
>
> true, but if we have TAS, outside air temp, and altitude, its a pretty
> easy conversion, right?

Unfortunately, the 302 does not output outside air temperature in normal
operating (LOG 0) mode. Operating in LOG 12 mode will require a fairly
sizable post-processing effort to perform the necessary conversions from
raw sensor data to usable results. If you want to go this route,
contact me via email, I have some code that will help...

Marc

[[email protected]]

On May 24, 12:42 pm, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> wrote:
> > On May 24, 12:36 am, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> >> Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>> Henryk Birecki wrote:
> >>>> Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> >>>>> Henryk Birecki wrote:
> >>>>>> Cambridge CAI302 provides output of
> >>>>>> true speed, but no temperature data (?).
> >>>>> The 302 will output outside air temperature.
> >>>> In a fashion. It outputs it as some raw number in LOG 12 mode, but
> >>>> unless you know all the calibration data, this mode does not do much
> >>>> good.
> >>> Well, darn it, I was hoping for some easy way to display it on my PDA. I
> >>> can look at it on the 302 itself, but it's 10 button presses and 5 knob
> >>> clicks to get to it. A real nuisance.
> >> The other thing the 302 fails to output in normal operating mode is
> >> indicated airspeed (it provides only true airspeed), which one would
> >> definitely want for flight test evaluation purposes...
>
> >> Marc
>
> > true, but if we have TAS, outside air temp, and altitude, its a pretty
> > easy conversion, right?
>
> Unfortunately, the 302 does not output outside air temperature in normal
> operating (LOG 0) mode. Operating in LOG 12 mode will require a fairly
> sizable post-processing effort to perform the necessary conversions from
> raw sensor data to usable results. If you want to go this route,
> contact me via email, I have some code that will help...
>
> Marc

ok marc, i understand now. I still ahvent decided on what the best
route is for the data gathering. How much do the 302's typically
run? I glanced over their website and it seemed to me that the bare
logger wasnt too spendy, but then if you wanted to add on a vario
display, etc etc. it could get pretty pricey. what all would I really
need? just the bare logger?

[Darryl Ramm]

On May 24, 11:36 am, wrote:
> On May 24, 12:42 pm, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > On May 24, 12:36 am, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> > >> Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > >>> Henryk Birecki wrote:
> > >>>> Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> > >>>>> Henryk Birecki wrote:
> > >>>>>> Cambridge CAI302 provides output of
> > >>>>>> true speed, but no temperature data (?).
> > >>>>> The 302 will output outside air temperature.
> > >>>> In a fashion. It outputs it as some raw number in LOG 12 mode, but
> > >>>> unless you know all the calibration data, this mode does not do much
> > >>>> good.
> > >>> Well, darn it, I was hoping for some easy way to display it on my PDA. I
> > >>> can look at it on the 302 itself, but it's 10 button presses and 5 knob
> > >>> clicks to get to it. A real nuisance.
> > >> The other thing the 302 fails to output in normal operating mode is
> > >> indicated airspeed (it provides only true airspeed), which one would
> > >> definitely want for flight test evaluation purposes...
>
> > >> Marc
>
> > > true, but if we have TAS, outside air temp, and altitude, its a pretty
> > > easy conversion, right?
>
> > Unfortunately, the 302 does not output outside air temperature in normal
> > operating (LOG 0) mode. Operating in LOG 12 mode will require a fairly
> > sizable post-processing effort to perform the necessary conversions from
> > raw sensor data to usable results. If you want to go this route,
> > contact me via email, I have some code that will help...
>
> > Marc
>
> ok marc, i understand now. I still ahvent decided on what the best
> route is for the data gathering. How much do the 302's typically
> run? I glanced over their website and it seemed to me that the bare
> logger wasnt too spendy, but then if you wanted to add on a vario
> display, etc etc. it could get pretty pricey. what all would I really
> need? just the bare logger?

The bare logger (302A) is just a GPS logger with altitude transducer,
no airspeed info etc. You need a real 302. ~$2,400.

Darryl

[[email protected]]

>
> The bare logger (302A) is just a GPS logger with altitude transducer,
> no airspeed info etc. You need a real 302. ~$2,400.
>
> Darryl

well that takes care of that idea then

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

wrote:
> ok marc, i understand now. I still ahvent decided on what the best
> route is for the data gathering. How much do the 302's typically
> run? I glanced over their website and it seemed to me that the bare
> logger wasnt too spendy, but then if you wanted to add on a vario
> display, etc etc. it could get pretty pricey. what all would I really
> need? just the bare logger?

You'll need a Cambridge 302 (not the 302A, which is a flight recorder
that doesn't measure airspeed or temperature). If you have a suitable
PDA and software, you don't need the 303. So, minimally, the new cost
is just under $2800. I've seen used ones in the $2000 range.

If you aren't so worried about the flight recorder, you might be able to
pick up a used Borgelt B50 in the $500 range. These output IAS, TAS,
vario, and outside air temperature to a PDA, plus they are really nice
varios...

Marc

[[email protected]]

On May 24, 1:55 pm, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> wrote:
> > ok marc, i understand now. I still ahvent decided on what the best
> > route is for the data gathering. How much do the 302's typically
> > run? I glanced over their website and it seemed to me that the bare
> > logger wasnt too spendy, but then if you wanted to add on a vario
> > display, etc etc. it could get pretty pricey. what all would I really
> > need? just the bare logger?
>
> You'll need a Cambridge 302 (not the 302A, which is a flight recorder
> that doesn't measure airspeed or temperature). If you have a suitable
> PDA and software, you don't need the 303. So, minimally, the new cost
> is just under $2800. I've seen used ones in the $2000 range.
>
> If you aren't so worried about the flight recorder, you might be able to
> pick up a used Borgelt B50 in the $500 range. These output IAS, TAS,
> vario, and outside air temperature to a PDA, plus they are really nice
> varios...
>
> Marc

marc,

im liking that idea. i want an audio vario bad and have been lusting
after the B40 or 50 for a while. It would potentially leave enough
cash in reserves to find a cheap logger too. will have to investigate
it further.