Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'

[NOMOREWARFORISRAEL[_2_]]

Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'

By Muhammad Cohen

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19991.htm


28/05/08 "Asia Times" -- - NEW YORK - The George W Bush administration
plans to launch an air strike against Iran within the next two months,
an informed source tells Asia Times Online, echoing other reports that
have surfaced in the media in the United States recently.

Two key US senators briefed on the attack planned to go public with
their opposition to the move, according to the source, but their
projected New York Times op-ed piece has yet to appear.

The source, a retired US career diplomat and former assistant
secretary of state still active in the foreign affairs community,
speaking anonymously, said last week that that the US plans an air
strike against the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC). The air
strike would target the headquarters of the IRGC's elite Quds force.
With an estimated strength of up to 90,000 fighters, the Quds' stated
mission is to spread Iran's revolution of 1979 throughout the region.

Targets could include IRGC garrisons in southern and southwestern
Iran, near the border with Iraq. US officials have repeatedly claimed
Iran is aiding Iraqi insurgents. In January 2007, US forces raided the
Iranian consulate general in Erbil, Iraq, arresting five staff
members, including two Iranian diplomats it held until November. Last
September, the US Senate approved a resolution by a vote of 76-22
urging President George W Bush to declare the IRGC a terrorist
organization. Following this non-binding "sense of the senate"
resolution, the White House declared sanctions against the Quds Force
as a terrorist group in October. The Bush administration has also
accused Iran of pursuing a nuclear weapons program, though most
intelligence analysts say the program has been abandoned.

An attack on Iraq would fit the Bush administration's declared policy
on Iraq. Administration officials questioned directly about military
action against Iran routinely assert that "all options remain on the
table".

Rockin' and a-reelin'
Senators and the Bush administration denied the resolution and
terrorist declaration were preludes to an attack on Iran. However,
attacking Iran rarely seems far from some American leaders' minds.
Arizona senator and presumptive Republican presidential nominee John
McCain recast the classic Beach Boys tune Barbara Ann as "Bomb Iran".
Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton promised "total obliteration" for
Iran if it attacked Israel.

The US and Iran have a long and troubled history, even without the
proposed air strike. US and British intelligence were behind attempts
to unseat prime minister Mohammed Mossadeq, who nationalized Britain's
Anglo-Iranian Petroleum Company, and returned Shah Mohammad Reza
Pahlavi to power in 1953. President Jimmy Carter's pressure on the
Shah to improve his dismal human-rights record and loosen political
control helped the 1979 Islamic revolution unseat the Shah.

But the new government under Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini condemned the
US as "the Great Satan" for its decades of support for the Shah and
its reluctant admission into the US of the fallen monarch for cancer
treatment. Students occupied the US Embassy in Teheran, holding 52
diplomats hostage for 444 days. Eight American commandos died in a
failed rescue mission in 1980. The US broke diplomatic relations with
Iran during the hostage holding and has yet to restore them. Iranian
President Mahmud Ahmadinejad's rhetoric often sounds lifted from the
Khomeini era.

The source said the White House views the proposed air strike as a
limited action to punish Iran for its involvement in Iraq. The source,
an ambassador during the administration of president H W Bush, did not
provide details on the types of weapons to be used in the attack, nor
on the precise stage of planning at this time. It is not known whether
the White House has already consulted with allies about the air
strike, or if it plans to do so.

Sense in the senate
Details provided by the administration raised alarm bells on Capitol
Hill, the source said. After receiving secret briefings on the planned
air strike, Senator Diane Feinstein, Democrat of California, and
Senator Richard Lugar, Republican of Indiana, said they would write a
New York Times op-ed piece "within days", the source said last week,
to express their opposition. Feinstein is a member of the Senate
Intelligence Committee and Lugar is the ranking Republican on the
Foreign Relations Committee.

Senate offices were closed for the US Memorial Day holiday, so
Feinstein and Lugar were not available for comment.

Given their obligations to uphold the secrecy of classified
information, it is unlikely the senators would reveal the Bush
administration's plan or their knowledge of it. However, going public
on the issue, even without specifics, would likely create a public
groundswell of criticism that could induce the Bush administration
reconsider its plan.

The proposed air strike on Iran would have huge implications for
geopolitics and for the ongoing US presidential campaign. The biggest
question, of course, is how would Iran respond?

Iran's options
Iran could flex its muscles in any number of ways. It could step up
support for insurgents in Iraq and for its allies throughout the
Middle East. Iran aids both Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Israel's
Occupied Territories. It is also widely suspected of assisting Taliban
rebels in Afghanistan.

Iran could also choose direct confrontation with the US in Iraq and/or
Afghanistan, with which Iran shares a long, porous border. Iran has a
fighting force of more than 500,000. Iran is also believed to have
missiles capable of reaching US allies in the Gulf region.

Iran could also declare a complete or selective oil embargo on US
allies. Iran is the second-largest oil exporter in the Organization of
Petroleum Exporting Countries and fourth-largest overall. About 70% of
its oil exports go to Asia. The US has barred oil imports from Iran
since 1995 and restricts US companies from investing there.

China is Iran's biggest customer for oil, and Iran buys weapons from
China. Trade between the two countries hit US$20 billion last year and
continues to expand. China's reaction to an attack on Iran is also a
troubling unknown for the US.

Three for the money
The Islamic world could also react strongly against a US attack
against a third predominantly Muslim nation. Pakistan, which also
shares a border with Iran, could face additional pressure from Islamic
parties to end its cooperation with the US to fight al-Qaeda and hunt
for Osama bin Laden. Turkey, another key ally, could be pushed further
off its secular base. American companies, diplomatic installations and
other US interests could face retaliation from governments or mobs in
Muslim-majority states from Indonesia to Morocco.

A US air strike on Iran would have seismic impact on the presidential
race at home, but it's difficult to determine where the pieces would
fall.

At first glance, a military attack against Iran would seem to favor
McCain. The Arizona senator says the US is locked in battle across the
globe with radical Islamic extremists, and he believes Iran is one of
biggest instigators and supporters of the extremist tide. A strike on
Iran could rally American voters to back the war effort and vote for
McCain.

On the other hand, an air strike on Iran could heighten public
disenchantment with Bush administration policy in the Middle East,
leading to support for the Democratic candidate, whoever it is.

But an air strike will provoke reactions far beyond US voting booths.
That would explain why two veteran senators, one Republican and one
Democrat, were reportedly so horrified at the prospect.

Former broadcast news producer Muhammad Cohen told America's story to
the world as a US diplomat and is author of Hong Kong On Air
(www.hongkongonair.com), a novel set during the 1997 handover about
television news, love, betrayal, high finance and cheap lingerie.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Threat of NeoCon War on Iran for Israel Zionist Agenda (click on the
picture at the following URL):

http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com/2008/05/threat-of-neocon-war-on-iran-for-israel.html


Here is a tiny URL for the above one:

http://tinyurl.com/3w2ok7

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://NEOCONZIONISTTHREAT.BLOGSPOT.COM


http://NOMOREWARFORISRAEL.BLOGSPOT.COM

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:11:23 -0700 (PDT), NOMOREWARFORISRAEL
> wrote:

>28/05/08 "Asia Times" -- - NEW YORK - The George W Bush administration
>plans to launch an air strike against Iran within the next two months,
>an informed source tells Asia Times Online, echoing other reports that
>have surfaced in the media in the United States recently.


Re: Bush 'plans Iran air strike by August' Won't work. Bush had
stated that he will attend the Beijing Olympics Opening Ceremony (Aug
8). He hasn't got the smarts to juggle that kind of scheduling
conflict by doing a new war at the same time. But then again he may
do so a few days later and steal the headlines from the Olympics. On
the balance? Nah.

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
PaPaPeng > wrote:

> On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:11:23 -0700 (PDT), NOMOREWARFORISRAEL
> > wrote:
>
> >28/05/08 "Asia Times" -- - NEW YORK - The George W Bush administration
> >plans to launch an air strike against Iran within the next two months,
> >an informed source tells Asia Times Online, echoing other reports that
> >have surfaced in the media in the United States recently.
>
>
> Re: Bush 'plans Iran air strike by August' Won't work. Bush had
> stated that he will attend the Beijing Olympics Opening Ceremony (Aug
> 8). He hasn't got the smarts to juggle that kind of scheduling
> conflict by doing a new war at the same time. But then again he may
> do so a few days later and steal the headlines from the Olympics. On
> the balance? Nah.

FOAD, troll.

[Ian B MacLure]

NOMOREWARFORISRAEL > wrote in news:3ff150f0-
:

> Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'

Thanks for the warning.
Should give me time to polish up the old Plasma TV
screen and lay in a goodly supply of refreshements.

IBM

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
Don Ocean > wrote:

> Steve Hix wrote:
> > In article >,
> > PaPaPeng > wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:11:23 -0700 (PDT), NOMOREWARFORISRAEL
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> 28/05/08 "Asia Times" -- - NEW YORK - The George W Bush administration
> >>> plans to launch an air strike against Iran within the next two months,
> >>> an informed source tells Asia Times Online, echoing other reports that
> >>> have surfaced in the media in the United States recently.
> >>
> >> Re: Bush 'plans Iran air strike by August' Won't work. Bush had
> >> stated that he will attend the Beijing Olympics Opening Ceremony (Aug
> >> 8). He hasn't got the smarts to juggle that kind of scheduling
> >> conflict by doing a new war at the same time. But then again he may
> >> do so a few days later and steal the headlines from the Olympics. On
> >> the balance? Nah.
> >
> > FOAD, troll.
>
> Truth **** you off?

Not at all.

That post wasn't "truth", to any reasonable value, though.

> Bush never could meet any kind of a Military
> deadline. Hell, he couldn't even keep up reserve flight status in a unit
> that was slated never to see combat even.

Ignoring the fact that said unit was transitioning to a different
aircraft and mission, and that he had insufficient time remaining in his
commitment to be trained for the new mission. Not to mention that he
gained more than enough points during his service to more than fulfill
his required commitment.

> No more damned civilians or
> draft dodgers in the first chair! Or goofy peanut farmers!

It's odd, really, that so many fulminate at near infinite length about
how Bush is too stupid to walk and chew gum simultaneously, yet at the
same time go on as if he must totally control in the tiniest detail all
of the nefarious plots that they believe him to be juggling.

And they never can see the inconsistency.

[Don Ocean[_2_]]

The Bush ******* cannot make a war without the approval of the American
people. The pack of AIPAC bought fools in the Senate and Congress will
not bypass the opinion of the citizenry. Hell, most of America would
either aid or look the other way while the Bu****es were being hung for
such crimes. Do keep in mind that Russia made it clear that an attack on
Iran would be an act of war on Russia also. Let the Damned Jews commit
suicide on their own. When American boys die in conflict.. it should be
for damned good American reasons. I wonder if McCain is any saner?


NOMOREWARFORISRAEL wrote:
> Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'
>
> By Muhammad Cohen
>
> http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19991.htm
>
>
> 28/05/08 "Asia Times" -- - NEW YORK - The George W Bush administration
> plans to launch an air strike against Iran within the next two months,
> an informed source tells Asia Times Online, echoing other reports that
> have surfaced in the media in the United States recently.
>
> Two key US senators briefed on the attack planned to go public with
> their opposition to the move, according to the source, but their
> projected New York Times op-ed piece has yet to appear.
>
> The source, a retired US career diplomat and former assistant
> secretary of state still active in the foreign affairs community,
> speaking anonymously, said last week that that the US plans an air
> strike against the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC). The air
> strike would target the headquarters of the IRGC's elite Quds force.
> With an estimated strength of up to 90,000 fighters, the Quds' stated
> mission is to spread Iran's revolution of 1979 throughout the region.
>
> Targets could include IRGC garrisons in southern and southwestern
> Iran, near the border with Iraq. US officials have repeatedly claimed
> Iran is aiding Iraqi insurgents. In January 2007, US forces raided the
> Iranian consulate general in Erbil, Iraq, arresting five staff
> members, including two Iranian diplomats it held until November. Last
> September, the US Senate approved a resolution by a vote of 76-22
> urging President George W Bush to declare the IRGC a terrorist
> organization. Following this non-binding "sense of the senate"
> resolution, the White House declared sanctions against the Quds Force
> as a terrorist group in October. The Bush administration has also
> accused Iran of pursuing a nuclear weapons program, though most
> intelligence analysts say the program has been abandoned.
>
> An attack on Iraq would fit the Bush administration's declared policy
> on Iraq. Administration officials questioned directly about military
> action against Iran routinely assert that "all options remain on the
> table".
>
> Rockin' and a-reelin'
> Senators and the Bush administration denied the resolution and
> terrorist declaration were preludes to an attack on Iran. However,
> attacking Iran rarely seems far from some American leaders' minds.
> Arizona senator and presumptive Republican presidential nominee John
> McCain recast the classic Beach Boys tune Barbara Ann as "Bomb Iran".
> Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton promised "total obliteration" for
> Iran if it attacked Israel.
>
> The US and Iran have a long and troubled history, even without the
> proposed air strike. US and British intelligence were behind attempts
> to unseat prime minister Mohammed Mossadeq, who nationalized Britain's
> Anglo-Iranian Petroleum Company, and returned Shah Mohammad Reza
> Pahlavi to power in 1953. President Jimmy Carter's pressure on the
> Shah to improve his dismal human-rights record and loosen political
> control helped the 1979 Islamic revolution unseat the Shah.
>
> But the new government under Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini condemned the
> US as "the Great Satan" for its decades of support for the Shah and
> its reluctant admission into the US of the fallen monarch for cancer
> treatment. Students occupied the US Embassy in Teheran, holding 52
> diplomats hostage for 444 days. Eight American commandos died in a
> failed rescue mission in 1980. The US broke diplomatic relations with
> Iran during the hostage holding and has yet to restore them. Iranian
> President Mahmud Ahmadinejad's rhetoric often sounds lifted from the
> Khomeini era.
>
> The source said the White House views the proposed air strike as a
> limited action to punish Iran for its involvement in Iraq. The source,
> an ambassador during the administration of president H W Bush, did not
> provide details on the types of weapons to be used in the attack, nor
> on the precise stage of planning at this time. It is not known whether
> the White House has already consulted with allies about the air
> strike, or if it plans to do so.
>
> Sense in the senate
> Details provided by the administration raised alarm bells on Capitol
> Hill, the source said. After receiving secret briefings on the planned
> air strike, Senator Diane Feinstein, Democrat of California, and
> Senator Richard Lugar, Republican of Indiana, said they would write a
> New York Times op-ed piece "within days", the source said last week,
> to express their opposition. Feinstein is a member of the Senate
> Intelligence Committee and Lugar is the ranking Republican on the
> Foreign Relations Committee.
>
> Senate offices were closed for the US Memorial Day holiday, so
> Feinstein and Lugar were not available for comment.
>
> Given their obligations to uphold the secrecy of classified
> information, it is unlikely the senators would reveal the Bush
> administration's plan or their knowledge of it. However, going public
> on the issue, even without specifics, would likely create a public
> groundswell of criticism that could induce the Bush administration
> reconsider its plan.
>
> The proposed air strike on Iran would have huge implications for
> geopolitics and for the ongoing US presidential campaign. The biggest
> question, of course, is how would Iran respond?
>
> Iran's options
> Iran could flex its muscles in any number of ways. It could step up
> support for insurgents in Iraq and for its allies throughout the
> Middle East. Iran aids both Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Israel's
> Occupied Territories. It is also widely suspected of assisting Taliban
> rebels in Afghanistan.
>
> Iran could also choose direct confrontation with the US in Iraq and/or
> Afghanistan, with which Iran shares a long, porous border. Iran has a
> fighting force of more than 500,000. Iran is also believed to have
> missiles capable of reaching US allies in the Gulf region.
>
> Iran could also declare a complete or selective oil embargo on US
> allies. Iran is the second-largest oil exporter in the Organization of
> Petroleum Exporting Countries and fourth-largest overall. About 70% of
> its oil exports go to Asia. The US has barred oil imports from Iran
> since 1995 and restricts US companies from investing there.
>
> China is Iran's biggest customer for oil, and Iran buys weapons from
> China. Trade between the two countries hit US$20 billion last year and
> continues to expand. China's reaction to an attack on Iran is also a
> troubling unknown for the US.
>
> Three for the money
> The Islamic world could also react strongly against a US attack
> against a third predominantly Muslim nation. Pakistan, which also
> shares a border with Iran, could face additional pressure from Islamic
> parties to end its cooperation with the US to fight al-Qaeda and hunt
> for Osama bin Laden. Turkey, another key ally, could be pushed further
> off its secular base. American companies, diplomatic installations and
> other US interests could face retaliation from governments or mobs in
> Muslim-majority states from Indonesia to Morocco.
>
> A US air strike on Iran would have seismic impact on the presidential
> race at home, but it's difficult to determine where the pieces would
> fall.
>
> At first glance, a military attack against Iran would seem to favor
> McCain. The Arizona senator says the US is locked in battle across the
> globe with radical Islamic extremists, and he believes Iran is one of
> biggest instigators and supporters of the extremist tide. A strike on
> Iran could rally American voters to back the war effort and vote for
> McCain.
>
> On the other hand, an air strike on Iran could heighten public
> disenchantment with Bush administration policy in the Middle East,
> leading to support for the Democratic candidate, whoever it is.
>
> But an air strike will provoke reactions far beyond US voting booths.
> That would explain why two veteran senators, one Republican and one
> Democrat, were reportedly so horrified at the prospect.
>
> Former broadcast news producer Muhammad Cohen told America's story to
> the world as a US diplomat and is author of Hong Kong On Air
> (www.hongkongonair.com), a novel set during the 1997 handover about
> television news, love, betrayal, high finance and cheap lingerie.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Threat of NeoCon War on Iran for Israel Zionist Agenda (click on the
> picture at the following URL):
>
> http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com/2008/05/threat-of-neocon-war-on-iran-for-israel.html
>
>
> Here is a tiny URL for the above one:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3w2ok7
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> http://NEOCONZIONISTTHREAT.BLOGSPOT.COM
>
>
> http://NOMOREWARFORISRAEL.BLOGSPOT.COM
>

[Don Ocean[_2_]]

PaPaPeng wrote:
> On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:11:23 -0700 (PDT), NOMOREWARFORISRAEL
> > wrote:
>
>> 28/05/08 "Asia Times" -- - NEW YORK - The George W Bush administration
>> plans to launch an air strike against Iran within the next two months,
>> an informed source tells Asia Times Online, echoing other reports that
>> have surfaced in the media in the United States recently.
>
>
> Re: Bush 'plans Iran air strike by August' Won't work. Bush had
> stated that he will attend the Beijing Olympics Opening Ceremony (Aug
> 8). He hasn't got the smarts to juggle that kind of scheduling
> conflict by doing a new war at the same time. But then again he may
> do so a few days later and steal the headlines from the Olympics. On
> the balance? Nah.

Besides that.. Do you think China will advance the hard cash needed for
such a war? Obviously the little ******* has bankrupted America with his
idiot adventures in the ME.

[Don Ocean[_2_]]

Steve Hix wrote:
> In article >,
> PaPaPeng > wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:11:23 -0700 (PDT), NOMOREWARFORISRAEL
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> 28/05/08 "Asia Times" -- - NEW YORK - The George W Bush administration
>>> plans to launch an air strike against Iran within the next two months,
>>> an informed source tells Asia Times Online, echoing other reports that
>>> have surfaced in the media in the United States recently.
>>
>> Re: Bush 'plans Iran air strike by August' Won't work. Bush had
>> stated that he will attend the Beijing Olympics Opening Ceremony (Aug
>> 8). He hasn't got the smarts to juggle that kind of scheduling
>> conflict by doing a new war at the same time. But then again he may
>> do so a few days later and steal the headlines from the Olympics. On
>> the balance? Nah.
>
> FOAD, troll.

Truth **** you off? Bush never could meet any kind of a Military
deadline. Hell, he couldn't even keep up reserve flight status in a unit
that was slated never to see combat even. No more damned civilians or
draft dodgers in the first chair! Or goofy peanut farmers!

[William Black[_1_]]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:11:23 -0700 (PDT), NOMOREWARFORISRAEL
> > wrote:
>
>>28/05/08 "Asia Times" -- - NEW YORK - The George W Bush administration
>>plans to launch an air strike against Iran within the next two months,
>>an informed source tells Asia Times Online, echoing other reports that
>>have surfaced in the media in the United States recently.
>
>
> Re: Bush 'plans Iran air strike by August' Won't work. Bush had
> stated that he will attend the Beijing Olympics Opening Ceremony (Aug
> 8).

Interesting.

Half the European leaders have already pulled out of that particular chance
for a free dinner.

It's possible he needs an excuse to get out of it and he thinks (yes, I
know...) that bombing somewhere is preferable to appearing on a platform
with the Chinese tyrants...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[TJ]

On 28 May, 07:02, Don Ocean > wrote:
> The Bush ******* cannot make a war without the approval of the American
> people. The pack of AIPAC bought fools in the Senate and Congress will
> not bypass the opinion of the citizenry. Hell, most of America would
> either aid or look the other way while the Bu****es were being hung for
> such crimes. Do keep in mind that Russia made it clear that an attack on
> Iran would be an act of war on Russia also. Let the Damned Jews commit
> suicide on their own. When American boys die in conflict.. it should be
> for damned good American reasons. I wonder if McCain is any saner?
>
>
>
> NOMOREWARFORISRAEL wrote:
> > Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'
>
> > By Muhammad Cohen
>
> >http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19991.htm
>
> > 28/05/08 "Asia Times" -- - NEW YORK - The George W Bush administration
> > plans to launch an air strike against Iran within the next two months,
> > an informed source tells Asia Times Online, echoing other reports that
> > have surfaced in the media in the United States recently.
>
> > Two key US senators briefed on the attack planned to go public with
> > their opposition to the move, according to the source, but their
> > projected New York Times op-ed piece has yet to appear.
>
> > The source, a retired US career diplomat and former assistant
> > secretary of state still active in the foreign affairs community,
> > speaking anonymously, said last week that that the US plans an air
> > strike against the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC). The air
> > strike would target the headquarters of the IRGC's elite Quds force.
> > With an estimated strength of up to 90,000 fighters, the Quds' stated
> > mission is to spread Iran's revolution of 1979 throughout the region.
>
> > Targets could include IRGC garrisons in southern and southwestern
> > Iran, near the border with Iraq. US officials have repeatedly claimed
> > Iran is aiding Iraqi insurgents. In January 2007, US forces raided the
> > Iranian consulate general in Erbil, Iraq, arresting five staff
> > members, including two Iranian diplomats it held until November. Last
> > September, the US Senate approved a resolution by a vote of 76-22
> > urging President George W Bush to declare the IRGC a terrorist
> > organization. Following this non-binding "sense of the senate"
> > resolution, the White House declared sanctions against the Quds Force
> > as a terrorist group in October. The Bush administration has also
> > accused Iran of pursuing a nuclear weapons program, though most
> > intelligence analysts say the program has been abandoned.
>
> > An attack on Iraq would fit the Bush administration's declared policy
> > on Iraq. Administration officials questioned directly about military
> > action against Iran routinely assert that "all options remain on the
> > table".
>
> > Rockin' and a-reelin'
> > Senators and the Bush administration denied the resolution and
> > terrorist declaration were preludes to an attack on Iran. However,
> > attacking Iran rarely seems far from some American leaders' minds.
> > Arizona senator and presumptive Republican presidential nominee John
> > McCain recast the classic Beach Boys tune Barbara Ann as "Bomb Iran".
> > Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton promised "total obliteration" for
> > Iran if it attacked Israel.
>
> > The US and Iran have a long and troubled history, even without the
> > proposed air strike. US and British intelligence were behind attempts
> > to unseat prime minister Mohammed Mossadeq, who nationalized Britain's
> > Anglo-Iranian Petroleum Company, and returned Shah Mohammad Reza
> > Pahlavi to power in 1953. President Jimmy Carter's pressure on the
> > Shah to improve his dismal human-rights record and loosen political
> > control helped the 1979 Islamic revolution unseat the Shah.
>
> > But the new government under Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini condemned the
> > US as "the Great Satan" for its decades of support for the Shah and
> > its reluctant admission into the US of the fallen monarch for cancer
> > treatment. Students occupied the US Embassy in Teheran, holding 52
> > diplomats hostage for 444 days. Eight American commandos died in a
> > failed rescue mission in 1980. The US broke diplomatic relations with
> > Iran during the hostage holding and has yet to restore them. Iranian
> > President Mahmud Ahmadinejad's rhetoric often sounds lifted from the
> > Khomeini era.
>
> > The source said the White House views the proposed air strike as a
> > limited action to punish Iran for its involvement in Iraq. The source,
> > an ambassador during the administration of president H W Bush, did not
> > provide details on the types of weapons to be used in the attack, nor
> > on the precise stage of planning at this time. It is not known whether
> > the White House has already consulted with allies about the air
> > strike, or if it plans to do so.
>
> > Sense in the senate
> > Details provided by the administration raised alarm bells on Capitol
> > Hill, the source said. After receiving secret briefings on the planned
> > air strike, Senator Diane Feinstein, Democrat of California, and
> > Senator Richard Lugar, Republican of Indiana, said they would write a
> > New York Times op-ed piece "within days", the source said last week,
> > to express their opposition. Feinstein is a member of the Senate
> > Intelligence Committee and Lugar is the ranking Republican on the
> > Foreign Relations Committee.
>
> > Senate offices were closed for the US Memorial Day holiday, so
> > Feinstein and Lugar were not available for comment.
>
> > Given their obligations to uphold the secrecy of classified
> > information, it is unlikely the senators would reveal the Bush
> > administration's plan or their knowledge of it. However, going public
> > on the issue, even without specifics, would likely create a public
> > groundswell of criticism that could induce the Bush administration
> > reconsider its plan.
>
> > The proposed air strike on Iran would have huge implications for
> > geopolitics and for the ongoing US presidential campaign. The biggest
> > question, of course, is how would Iran respond?
>
> > Iran's options
> > Iran could flex its muscles in any number of ways. It could step up
> > support for insurgents in Iraq and for its allies throughout the
> > Middle East. Iran aids both Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Israel's
> > Occupied Territories. It is also widely suspected of assisting Taliban
> > rebels in Afghanistan.
>
> > Iran could also choose direct confrontation with the US in Iraq and/or
> > Afghanistan, with which Iran shares a long, porous border. Iran has a
> > fighting force of more than 500,000. Iran is also believed to have
> > missiles capable of reaching US allies in the Gulf region.
>
> > Iran could also declare a complete or selective oil embargo on US
> > allies. Iran is the second-largest oil exporter in the Organization of
> > Petroleum Exporting Countries and fourth-largest overall. About 70% of
> > its oil exports go to Asia. The US has barred oil imports from Iran
> > since 1995 and restricts US companies from investing there.
>
> > China is Iran's biggest customer for oil, and Iran buys weapons from
> > China. Trade between the two countries hit US$20 billion last year and
> > continues to expand. China's reaction to an attack on Iran is also a
> > troubling unknown for the US.
>
> > Three for the money
> > The Islamic world could also react strongly against a US attack
> > against a third predominantly Muslim nation. Pakistan, which also
> > shares a border with Iran, could face additional pressure from Islamic
> > parties to end its cooperation with the US to fight al-Qaeda and hunt
> > for Osama bin Laden. Turkey, another key ally, could be pushed further
> > off its secular base. American companies, diplomatic installations and
> > other US interests could face retaliation from governments or mobs in
> > Muslim-majority states from Indonesia to Morocco.
>
> > A US air strike on Iran would have seismic impact on the presidential
> > race at home, but it's difficult to determine where the pieces would
> > fall.
>
> > At first glance, a military attack against Iran would seem to favor
> > McCain. The Arizona senator says the US is locked in battle across the
> > globe with radical Islamic extremists, and he believes Iran is one of
> > biggest instigators and supporters of the extremist tide. A strike on
> > Iran could rally American voters to back the war effort and vote for
> > McCain.
>
> > On the other hand, an air strike on Iran could heighten public
> > disenchantment with Bush administration policy in the Middle East,
> > leading to support for the Democratic candidate, whoever it is.
>
> > But an air strike will provoke reactions far beyond US voting booths.
> > That would explain why two veteran senators, one Republican and one
> > Democrat, were reportedly so horrified at the prospect.
>
> > Former broadcast news producer Muhammad Cohen told America's story to
> > the world as a US diplomat and is author of Hong Kong On Air
> > (www.hongkongonair.com), a novel set during the 1997 handover about
> > television news, love, betrayal, high finance and cheap lingerie.
>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------*--
>
> > Threat of NeoCon War on Iran for Israel Zionist Agenda *(click on the
> > picture at the following URL):
>
> >http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com/2008/05/threat-of-neocon-war-...
>
> > Here is a tiny URL for the above one:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/3w2ok7
>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------*-------------
>
> >http://NEOCONZIONISTTHREAT.BLOGSPOT.COM
>
> >http://NOMOREWARFORISRAEL.BLOGSPOT.COM- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Russia isn't going to go to war over Iran. Similar gibberish was
spouted when Iraq was attacked and more recently about Russia coming
to the aid of Serbia over Kosovo.

TJ

[PaPaPeng]

On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:51:23 +0100, "William Black"
> wrote:

>>
>>
>> Re: Bush 'plans Iran air strike by August' Won't work. Bush had
>> stated that he will attend the Beijing Olympics Opening Ceremony (Aug
>> 8).
>
>Interesting.
>
>Half the European leaders have already pulled out of that particular chance
>for a free dinner.

That a stretch seeing that Merkel, Brown and Sarkozy had never said
they were going in the first place. You can't withdraw from an event
that you were not going to. Its too late for them to change their
minds now. The same thing with Steven Spielberg withdrawing his
services. He never had a contract to do anything for the Beijing
Olympics. When that was pointed out to him we didn't hear a peep from
him since. Mia Farrow? Who's she?
>
>It's possible he needs an excuse to get out of it and he thinks (yes, I
>know...) that bombing somewhere is preferable to appearing on a platform
>with the Chinese tyrants...

That will indeed be an interesting development. Let's see if Bush can
swing it.
>
>--
>William Black

[Airyx]

On May 27, 7:11*pm, NOMOREWARFORISRAEL >
wrote:

Why does anyone answer posts from this guy?

He has claimed an attack is imminent on at least a dozen occasions
(usually when a unit rotation occurs). For example, each time the 5th
fleet deployed carrier changed-over, he claimed it was an indication
of an attack.

He claimed an attack would occur on Feb 21, 2007

When that didn't happen he gave a generic "Spring 2007"

Then he gave a date of August, 2007 based on GOP primary dates.

Interesting enough his "predictions" for 2008 are the same as 2007
(Feb 21, Spring, August).

Just query his posts...

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"Airyx" > wrote in message
...
On May 27, 7:11 pm, NOMOREWARFORISRAEL >
wrote:

Why does anyone answer posts from this guy?

He has claimed an attack is imminent on at least a dozen occasions
(usually when a unit rotation occurs). For example, each time the 5th
fleet deployed carrier changed-over, he claimed it was an indication
of an attack.

He claimed an attack would occur on Feb 21, 2007

When that didn't happen he gave a generic "Spring 2007"

Then he gave a date of August, 2007 based on GOP primary dates.

Interesting enough his "predictions" for 2008 are the same as 2007
(Feb 21, Spring, August).

Just query his posts...

***Who exactly are _you_ posting to ?
If it wasn't for your post, I wouldn't have even seen the subject who is
already in _my_killfile.
Just killfile him and have done with it.

cheers.....Jeff

[JJS[_2_]]

In article >,
wrote:

> On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:51:23 +0100, "William Black"
> > wrote:
>
> >>
> >>
> >> Re: Bush 'plans Iran air strike by August' Won't work. Bush had
> >> stated that he will attend the Beijing Olympics Opening Ceremony (Aug
> >> 8).
> >
> >Interesting.
> >
> >Half the European leaders have already pulled out of that particular chance
> >for a free dinner.
>
> That a stretch seeing that Merkel, Brown and Sarkozy had never said
> they were going in the first place. You can't withdraw from an event
> that you were not going to. Its too late for them to change their
> minds now. The same thing with Steven Spielberg withdrawing his
> services. He never had a contract to do anything for the Beijing
> Olympics.

You really believe he didn't know his contractual situation regarding
the Olympics? Rather strange wouldn't you say for someone involved
in a business neck deep in contracts.


When that was pointed out to him we didn't hear a peep from
> him since.

Why should we hear a peep from him? He simply walked away from
the situation and got on with his life. He just released a movie
or didn't you hear?

Joe

>Mia Farrow? Who's she?
> >
> >It's possible he needs an excuse to get out of it and he thinks (yes, I
> >know...) that bombing somewhere is preferable to appearing on a platform
> >with the Chinese tyrants...
>
> That will indeed be an interesting development. Let's see if Bush can
> swing it.
> >
> >--
> >William Black

[PaPaPeng]

On Thu, 29 May 2008 08:58:38 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

>In article >,
>wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:51:23 +0100, "William Black"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Re: Bush 'plans Iran air strike by August' Won't work. Bush had
>> >> stated that he will attend the Beijing Olympics Opening Ceremony (Aug
>> >> 8).
>> >
>> >Interesting.
>> >
>> >Half the European leaders have already pulled out of that particular chance
>> >for a free dinner.
>>
>> That a stretch seeing that Merkel, Brown and Sarkozy had never said
>> they were going in the first place. You can't withdraw from an event
>> that you were not going to. Its too late for them to change their
>> minds now. The same thing with Steven Spielberg withdrawing his
>> services. He never had a contract to do anything for the Beijing
>> Olympics.
>
>You really believe he didn't know his contractual situation regarding
>the Olympics? Rather strange wouldn't you say for someone involved
>in a business neck deep in contracts.

Exactly.


Chinese envoy says he would have not disclosed meeting with Spielberg
without resignation claim
February 28, 2008
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90883/6362228.html

Visiting Chinese government's special representative for Darfur, Liu
Guijin, Wednesday said had the so-called resignation event not taken
place he would have not revealed his meeting last September with
Hollywood director Steven Spielberg.

"The so-called resignation announced by Mr. Spielberg is really a big
surprise to me," Liu told a news conference held at the Chinese
embassy in Khartoum at the end of a four-day visit in Sudan.

Liu said he had told reporters several days ago in London that he met
with Spielberg in New York last September. At that time, "Mr.
Spielberg is no longer an artistic adviser to the Beijing Olympics
since he had not signed a contract before the deadline. That is what I
learnt from the Beijing Organizing Committee for the Games of the XXIX
Olympiad," he explained.

"But I told Mr. Spielberg that though you are no longer an artistic
advisor for the Beijing Olympics, I am still ready to exchange views
over issues in which you are interested," said the envoy, adding that
he spent over one hour on the meeting and tell Spielberg what the
Chinese side had done for the settlement of the Darfur issue.

After listening to Liu's introduction, Spielberg expressed his
gratitude, saying that he would do what he thought he should do for
the success of the Beijing Olympics whether he was or not an artistic
advisor, according to the envoy.

Liu said he personally have no ill feeling towards Spielberg.
"Instead, personally I respect him very much. I can understand the
pressure he is facing," said Liu.

Once again, Liu rejected attempts to link the Beijing Olympics to what
has happened in Sudan's Darfur, warning that to politicize the Olympic
Games will be very harmful in the long run as there would be abundant
attempts in the future to link the Olympic Games to politics.

"The friendly and cooperative relations between China and Sudanhad
already come into being before February of 2003 when infighting flared
up in Darfur," he said. "China is having normal relations with Sudan,
just like China's relations with other African nations. So we firmly
oppose any attempt to politicize Chinese-Sudanese relations."

Liu arrived in the Sudanese capital early Sunday after visiting
Britain. It is his fourth visit to this Africa's largest nation since
his appointment last May.

On Tuesday, Liu flew into South Darfur's capital city Nyala for a
one-day visit to assess security and humanitarian situations there. It
was his second visit to Darfur since his appointment.

Following Sudan, Liu is scheduled to leave for Paris in the early hour
on Thursday for a brief visit and then tour to another African nation
Chad.

Liu, a 62-year-old veteran diplomat and former Chinese ambassador to
Zimbabwe and South Africa, has been engaged in African affairs for
more than 25 years.

Since last May, he had paid three visits to Sudan and also shuttled
between the United States, Britain, Egypt, Libya and other countries
concerned, making unremitting efforts to resolve the Darfur issue.

Source: Xinhua

[JJS[_2_]]

In article >,
wrote:

> On Thu, 29 May 2008 08:58:38 -0700, (JJS)
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> >wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:51:23 +0100, "William Black"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Re: Bush 'plans Iran air strike by August' Won't work. Bush had
> >> >> stated that he will attend the Beijing Olympics Opening Ceremony (Aug
> >> >> 8).
> >> >
> >> >Interesting.
> >> >
> >> >Half the European leaders have already pulled out of that particular
chance
> >> >for a free dinner.
> >>
> >> That a stretch seeing that Merkel, Brown and Sarkozy had never said
> >> they were going in the first place. You can't withdraw from an event
> >> that you were not going to. Its too late for them to change their
> >> minds now. The same thing with Steven Spielberg withdrawing his
> >> services. He never had a contract to do anything for the Beijing
> >> Olympics.
> >
> >You really believe he didn't know his contractual situation regarding
> >the Olympics? Rather strange wouldn't you say for someone involved
> >in a business neck deep in contracts.
>
> Exactly.


Just a thought but Mr. Lui as a ³veteran diplomat and former Chinese
ambassador² may be doing what we in the US call ³spin².

If by September Spielberg was no longer an artistic adviser to the
Beijing Olympics why wasn¹t it mentioned at that time? This is one of
the highest profile Americans involved in the coming Olympic games so
it would be news worth reporting and at the same time allow the Chinese
government to distance itself from a possible problem. We¹re left with
either miscommunication between China and Spielberg, a miss-information
campaign or just a royal screw up by someone in the Chinese Olympic
organization. Take your pick.

Joe

>
>
> Chinese envoy says he would have not disclosed meeting with Spielberg
> without resignation claim
> February 28, 2008
> http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90883/6362228.html
>
> Visiting Chinese government's special representative for Darfur, Liu
> Guijin, Wednesday said had the so-called resignation event not taken
> place he would have not revealed his meeting last September with
> Hollywood director Steven Spielberg.
>
> "The so-called resignation announced by Mr. Spielberg is really a big
> surprise to me," Liu told a news conference held at the Chinese
> embassy in Khartoum at the end of a four-day visit in Sudan.
>
> Liu said he had told reporters several days ago in London that he met
> with Spielberg in New York last September. At that time, "Mr.
> Spielberg is no longer an artistic adviser to the Beijing Olympics
> since he had not signed a contract before the deadline. That is what I
> learnt from the Beijing Organizing Committee for the Games of the XXIX
> Olympiad," he explained.
>
> "But I told Mr. Spielberg that though you are no longer an artistic
> advisor for the Beijing Olympics, I am still ready to exchange views
> over issues in which you are interested," said the envoy, adding that
> he spent over one hour on the meeting and tell Spielberg what the
> Chinese side had done for the settlement of the Darfur issue.
>
> After listening to Liu's introduction, Spielberg expressed his
> gratitude, saying that he would do what he thought he should do for
> the success of the Beijing Olympics whether he was or not an artistic
> advisor, according to the envoy.
>
> Liu said he personally have no ill feeling towards Spielberg.
> "Instead, personally I respect him very much. I can understand the
> pressure he is facing," said Liu.
>
> Once again, Liu rejected attempts to link the Beijing Olympics to what
> has happened in Sudan's Darfur, warning that to politicize the Olympic
> Games will be very harmful in the long run as there would be abundant
> attempts in the future to link the Olympic Games to politics.
>
> "The friendly and cooperative relations between China and Sudanhad
> already come into being before February of 2003 when infighting flared
> up in Darfur," he said. "China is having normal relations with Sudan,
> just like China's relations with other African nations. So we firmly
> oppose any attempt to politicize Chinese-Sudanese relations."
>
> Liu arrived in the Sudanese capital early Sunday after visiting
> Britain. It is his fourth visit to this Africa's largest nation since
> his appointment last May.
>
> On Tuesday, Liu flew into South Darfur's capital city Nyala for a
> one-day visit to assess security and humanitarian situations there. It
> was his second visit to Darfur since his appointment.
>
> Following Sudan, Liu is scheduled to leave for Paris in the early hour
> on Thursday for a brief visit and then tour to another African nation
> Chad.
>
> Liu, a 62-year-old veteran diplomat and former Chinese ambassador to
> Zimbabwe and South Africa, has been engaged in African affairs for
> more than 25 years.
>
> Since last May, he had paid three visits to Sudan and also shuttled
> between the United States, Britain, Egypt, Libya and other countries
> concerned, making unremitting efforts to resolve the Darfur issue.
>
> Source: Xinhua
>

[PaPaPeng]

On Thu, 29 May 2008 12:49:45 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

>
>
>Just a thought but Mr. Lui as a ³veteran diplomat and former Chinese
>ambassador² may be doing what we in the US call ³spin².


Chinese don't do the Washington spin thing. The blowback is not worth
the trouble as Dubya should realize by now. Anyway the former
ambassador was on his way to a higher post in Beijing. It's very rare
for a career official to make a personal comment. This article was a
lucky catch on an important point. Do realize that had there been a
contract with Spielberg there is a fine point in law called A Breach
of Contract. Spielberg would have been sued off his pants for
unilaterally and impulsively breaking it. Its safe to assume he will
never work in China again. Same with Sharon Stone and some rude pop
diva.

[Eugene Griessel]

Vincent Brannigan > wrote:

>PaPaPeng wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 May 2008 12:49:45 -0700, (JJS)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Just a thought but Mr. Lui as a ³veteran diplomat and former Chinese
>>> ambassador² may be doing what we in the US call ³spin².
>>
>>
>> Chinese don't do the Washington spin thing. The blowback is not worth
>> the trouble as Dubya should realize by now. Anyway the former
>> ambassador was on his way to a higher post in Beijing. It's very rare
>> for a career official to make a personal comment. This article was a
>> lucky catch on an important point. Do realize that had there been a
>> contract with Spielberg there is a fine point in law called A Breach
>> of Contract. Spielberg would have been sued off his pants for
>> unilaterally and impulsively breaking it. Its safe to assume he will
>> never work in China again. Same with Sharon Stone and some rude pop
>> diva.
>
>
>it is certainly safe to say it about about any person who offends the
>leaderships of a thuggish authoritarian country with a tightly enforced
>party line
>
>One day perhaps China will grow up into a real country that tolerates
>and encourages diverse opinions for their own sake

While China is growing up could PaPaPeng grow up too? And desist from
posting until he does?

Eugene L Griessel

Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.

- I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -

[William Black[_1_]]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 29 May 2008 12:49:45 -0700, (JJS)
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Just a thought but Mr. Lui as a ³veteran diplomat and former Chinese
>>ambassador² may be doing what we in the US call ³spin².
>
>
> Chinese don't do the Washington spin thing.

That obviously explains the raft of Chinese shills that turned up during the
Olympic Torch fiasco.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[PaPaPeng]

On Fri, 30 May 2008 10:28:48 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
> wrote:

>PaPaPeng wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 May 2008 12:49:45 -0700, (JJS)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Just a thought but Mr. Lui as a ³veteran diplomat and former Chinese
>>> ambassador² may be doing what we in the US call ³spin².
>>
>>
>> Chinese don't do the Washington spin thing. The blowback is not worth
>> the trouble as Dubya should realize by now. Anyway the former
>> ambassador was on his way to a higher post in Beijing. It's very rare
>> for a career official to make a personal comment. This article was a
>> lucky catch on an important point. Do realize that had there been a
>> contract with Spielberg there is a fine point in law called A Breach
>> of Contract. Spielberg would have been sued off his pants for
>> unilaterally and impulsively breaking it. Its safe to assume he will
>> never work in China again. Same with Sharon Stone and some rude pop
>> diva.
>
>
>it is certainly safe to say it about about any person who offends the
>leaderships of a thuggish authoritarian country with a tightly enforced
>party line
>


The Government of China does not sully herself responding to stupid
individuals. There is no Nixon type or Bush type "enemies list." The
Government of China does not hire individuals or outside firms to
advice it on policies and on PR matters. There are no neocon think
tanks and dual loyalty high officials who can turn China upside down
for the benefit of another country. Only Americans do that. When
stupid individuals attack China on issues where China is univocally
the innocent party the popular resentment and anger is real and across
the whole country. No business agent, no organizer will be so stupid
as to have any further dealings with these people and organizations
ever. They will never work again in China.

As for thuggish etc. do compare the welcome China's leaders get when
they visit countries in the rest of the world. Real work gets done and
billions of dollars in bilateral projects gets signed. Bush gets their
riots squads out and the rioters into the headlines even when he
visits supposed friendly allies such as Britian, Germany, France and
Australia. That kind of photo op he doesn't need. Bush and the EU
leader seldom if ever dare to venture out on state visits and they
seldom get invited to do so anyway. Results man. Results. I's not
what you want to believe in. It's what is happening around you that
matters and whether that gives the desired results.

>One day perhaps China will grow up into a real country that tolerates
>and encourages diverse opinions for their own sake
>
>Vince

Fundamentalist Christians. Church for sex with multiple underaged
brides. Racial tensions with blacks, hispanics, rednecks, Muslims.
Unsafe streets. Gay marriages. Schools that cannot provide basic
el-hi education. A health care delivery system that is the most costly
scandal on this planet. Infrastructure that is falling apart. The
inability to produce a (presidential hopeful) leader that most people
can agree on or at least not subject to some vicious and divisive
attack on fundamental competency and morals. Business leaders whose
greed and incompetence have bankrupted the wealthiest country on this
planet. Destroyed the middle class now fearful for their future in
retirement. A President who is clueless to let this all happen on his
watch. A President who cannot claim a single positive achivement in
his entire two terms in office. A President who fabricated evidence to
invade and destroy a country, killing a million and maiming much more
and who continues to do so for so crass a purpose as to steal their
oil. And failed to succeed. A military that is forced to scrape the
dregs of society to find recruits. A government that abandons these
same soldiers to their horrible wounds.... much much more. If that's
diversity thank you but no thanks.

[William Black[_1_]]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...

The
> Government of China does not hire individuals or outside firms to
> advice it on policies and on PR matters.

That is, I'm afraid, terrifyingly true.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[PaPaPeng]

On Fri, 30 May 2008 13:52:42 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
> wrote:

>That is called "following the party line"
>
>it works on the brain dead followers.


With comic book attitudes like yours no wonder you people are in so
much trouble worldwide. As one of your ads said "Don't leave
home...."

[JJS[_2_]]

In article >,
wrote:

> On Thu, 29 May 2008 12:49:45 -0700, (JJS)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Just a thought but Mr. Lui as a ³veteran diplomat and former Chinese
> >ambassador² may be doing what we in the US call ³spin².
>
>
> Chinese don't do the Washington spin thing.


I have limited knowledge of Chinese culture but human nature being what
it is I find it hard to believe that the Chinese government, unlike every
other government in the world, is incapable of deciding to look at the
Œfacts¹ in a way that enhances their position.


>The blowback is not worth
> the trouble as Dubya should realize by now.


Not sure how "Dubya" entered the conversation.


>Anyway the former
> ambassador was on his way to a higher post in Beijing. It's very rare
> for a career official to make a personal comment.


I don¹t discount that it could be true but that just leads to more
questions as I mentioned earlier. It sounds to me like a major screw-up
took place and everyone is busy covering their ass.


>This article was a
> lucky catch on an important point. Do realize that had there been a
> contract with Spielberg there is a fine point in law called A Breach
> of Contract. Spielberg would have been sued off his pants for
> unilaterally and impulsively breaking it.


No, I doubt that Spielberg would be sued over this point. It wouldn¹t
be worth the bad publicity for the Chinese government.


>Its safe to assume he will
> never work in China again. Same with Sharon Stone and some rude pop
> diva.


Sharon Stone like most of us can say the stupidest things at times.

Joe

[PaPaPeng]

On Fri, 30 May 2008 14:52:02 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
> wrote:

>I was personally involved (as a student) in Ping-Pong diplomacy back in 1972


No doubt you were one of the original astronauts who landed on the
moon too.

[PaPaPeng]

On Fri, 30 May 2008 08:26:08 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

>No, I doubt that Spielberg would be sued over this point. It wouldn¹t
>be worth the bad publicity for the Chinese government.


Its a moot point anyway. Agreed that the Chinese govt. or rather the
Beijing OC, isn't that petty to go suing petty annoyances or even big
annoyances. The Chinese govt. just does what it does because it has
better things to do than provide free publicity to people like
Spielberg.

[JJS[_2_]]

In article <QJX%j.16$jX.4@trnddc04>, Vincent Brannigan >
wrote:

> PaPaPeng wrote:
> > On Fri, 30 May 2008 14:52:02 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> I was personally involved (as a student) in Ping-Pong diplomacy back
in 1972
> >
> >
> > No doubt you were one of the original astronauts who landed on the
> > moon too.
>
> No but I was the persons who initiated the contact with USTTA president
> Steenhoven on behalf of UMCP Chancellor Charles Bishop to help arrange
> the premier venue of the tour, the match at Cole Field house. This was
> the only large venue inside the Washington beltway (12,000 seats)
>
> "1972: A ping-pong match between the United States and the People's
> Republic of China is played at Cole, the first sporting event between
> the two countries."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cole_Field_House
>
> It was my first date with Dr. Ruth. We met Henry Kissinger

First impression of Kissinger was?

Joe

[PaPaPeng]

On Fri, 30 May 2008 18:31:12 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
> wrote:

>PaPaPeng wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 14:52:02 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> I was personally involved (as a student) in Ping-Pong diplomacy back in 1972
>>
>>
>> No doubt you were one of the original astronauts who landed on the
>> moon too.
>
>No but I was the persons who initiated the contact with USTTA president
> Steenhoven on behalf of UMCP Chancellor Charles Bishop to help arrange
>the premier venue of the tour, the match at Cole Field house. This was
>the only large venue inside the Washington beltway (12,000 seats)
>
>"1972: A ping-pong match between the United States and the People's
>Republic of China is played at Cole, the first sporting event between
>the two countries."
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cole_Field_House
>
>It was my first date with Dr. Ruth. We met Henry Kissinger
>
>Vince

The 1972 ping pong diplomacy had a lot of press even if it is only
Cole Field House archives. Surely you can produce one of those
articles with your photo or name on it. Or did those make it to the
Mars Mission already. My initial impression of your claim was that
you were in the group that went to Beijing from Tokyo. Have you ever
been to Beijing or to China? If so or if not on what basis do claim
to speak of expertise on what is happening in China and the prevailing
public mood there?

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
> On Thu, 29 May 2008 12:49:45 -0700, (JJS)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Just a thought but Mr. Lui as a ³veteran diplomat and former Chinese
> >ambassador² may be doing what we in the US call ³spin².
>
>
> Chinese don't do the Washington spin thing. The blowback is not worth
> the trouble as Dubya should realize by now. Anyway the former
> ambassador was on his way to a higher post in Beijing. It's very rare
> for a career official to make a personal comment. This article was a
> lucky catch on an important point. Do realize that had there been a
> contract with Spielberg there is a fine point in law called A Breach
> of Contract. Spielberg would have been sued off his pants for
> unilaterally and impulsively breaking it. Its safe to assume he will
> never work in China again. Same with Sharon Stone and some rude pop
> diva.


YOu need to read the BS coming out of China now as they try to spin the
damage in the earthquake areas
--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
> On Fri, 30 May 2008 08:26:08 -0700, (JJS)
> wrote:
>
> >No, I doubt that Spielberg would be sued over this point. It wouldn¹t
> >be worth the bad publicity for the Chinese government.
>
>
> Its a moot point anyway. Agreed that the Chinese govt. or rather the
> Beijing OC, isn't that petty to go suing petty annoyances or even big
> annoyances. The Chinese govt. just does what it does because it has
> better things to do than provide free publicity to people like
> Spielberg.


China craved having someone of Spielberg's stature on board to boost
their standing in the world.



--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
>
> "PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Thu, 29 May 2008 12:49:45 -0700, (JJS)
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>Just a thought but Mr. Lui as a ³veteran diplomat and former Chinese
> >>ambassador² may be doing what we in the US call ³spin².
> >
> >
> > Chinese don't do the Washington spin thing.
>
> That obviously explains the raft of Chinese shills that turned up during the
> Olympic Torch fiasco.

And disappeared as soon as the torch run was completed.
--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[PaPaPeng]

On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:57:43 -0700, tankfixer
> wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 08:26:08 -0700, (JJS)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >No, I doubt that Spielberg would be sued over this point. It wouldn¹t
>> >be worth the bad publicity for the Chinese government.
>>
>>
>> Its a moot point anyway. Agreed that the Chinese govt. or rather the
>> Beijing OC, isn't that petty to go suing petty annoyances or even big
>> annoyances. The Chinese govt. just does what it does because it has
>> better things to do than provide free publicity to people like
>> Spielberg.
>
>
>China craved having someone of Spielberg's stature on board to boost
>their standing in the world.

Were you even aware Spielberg was involved as an "artistic consultant"
before his sham resignation. I follow the Beijing Olympics run up
pretty closely and Spielberg's involvement real or imaginary came out
of nowhere. If the Beijing OC is so hard up of American talent do
cite some examples where Americans have contributed to the event.
Surely Spielberg can't be the whole kaboodle?

[PaPaPeng]

On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:50:00 -0700, tankfixer
> wrote:

>
>YOu need to read the BS coming out of China now as they try to spin the
>damage in the earthquake areas
>--


If only Dubya could claim the same degree of disrepute after Katrina
he'd be grinning from ear to ear.

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
> On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:50:00 -0700, tankfixer
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >YOu need to read the BS coming out of China now as they try to spin the
> >damage in the earthquake areas
> >--
>
>
> If only Dubya could claim the same degree of disrepute after Katrina
> he'd be grinning from ear to ear.


Glad you can admit the Chinese people are unhappy with how their
government is acting.
That is a good first step.

--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
> On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:57:43 -0700, tankfixer
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> says...
> >> On Fri, 30 May 2008 08:26:08 -0700, (JJS)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >No, I doubt that Spielberg would be sued over this point. It wouldn¹t
> >> >be worth the bad publicity for the Chinese government.
> >>
> >>
> >> Its a moot point anyway. Agreed that the Chinese govt. or rather the
> >> Beijing OC, isn't that petty to go suing petty annoyances or even big
> >> annoyances. The Chinese govt. just does what it does because it has
> >> better things to do than provide free publicity to people like
> >> Spielberg.
> >
> >
> >China craved having someone of Spielberg's stature on board to boost
> >their standing in the world.
>
> Were you even aware Spielberg was involved as an "artistic consultant"
> before his sham resignation. I follow the Beijing Olympics run up
> pretty closely and Spielberg's involvement real or imaginary came out
> of nowhere. If the Beijing OC is so hard up of American talent do
> cite some examples where Americans have contributed to the event.
> Surely Spielberg can't be the whole kaboodle?

Why did they try to backpedle, as you are now, and say they never were
considering him as an advisor ?


--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[PaPaPeng]

On Sat, 31 May 2008 09:28:48 -0700, tankfixer
> wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:57:43 -0700, tankfixer
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >In article >,
>> says...
>> >> On Fri, 30 May 2008 08:26:08 -0700, (JJS)
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >No, I doubt that Spielberg would be sued over this point. It wouldn¹t
>> >> >be worth the bad publicity for the Chinese government.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Its a moot point anyway. Agreed that the Chinese govt. or rather the
>> >> Beijing OC, isn't that petty to go suing petty annoyances or even big
>> >> annoyances. The Chinese govt. just does what it does because it has
>> >> better things to do than provide free publicity to people like
>> >> Spielberg.
>> >
>> >
>> >China craved having someone of Spielberg's stature on board to boost
>> >their standing in the world.
>>
>> Were you even aware Spielberg was involved as an "artistic consultant"
>> before his sham resignation. I follow the Beijing Olympics run up
>> pretty closely and Spielberg's involvement real or imaginary came out
>> of nowhere. If the Beijing OC is so hard up of American talent do
>> cite some examples where Americans have contributed to the event.
>> Surely Spielberg can't be the whole kaboodle?
>
>Why did they try to backpedle, as you are now, and say they never were
>considering him as an advisor ?

Read the original post on what the Beijing diplomat said exactly.
[Liu said he had told reporters several days ago in London that he met
with Spielberg in New York last September. At that time, "Mr.
Spielberg is no longer an artistic adviser to the Beijing Olympics
since he had not signed a contract before the deadline. That is what I
learnt from the Beijing Organizing Committee for the Games of the XXIX
Olympiad," he explained. ]

And since Spielberg was aware that he did not have a contract last
September 2007 it was factitious and hypocritical of him to "resign"
in February 2008 and claim that his conscience forced him to denounce
the Olympics.

Spielberg's participation was indeed welcome. But Spielberg never
went through to sign a contract and never provided the Beijing OC a
formal letter to decline. That would be expected of a man with good
manners. The post is as artistic advisor not as the principal designer
or organizer. Spielberg's name would indeed have lent prestige to the
event. But the donkey work of actually putting up the the program
and the show was already in place. An outside advisor wouldn't have
been missed. An advisor might have made useful suggestions to make a
better show but he has no veto power. Your reading honor into
Speilberg's actions when there is none is just tarring yourself with
his ****. And you still haven't answered where the all important
American input is in the rest of the Games organization.

[PaPaPeng]

On Sat, 31 May 2008 09:20:54 -0700, tankfixer
> wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:50:00 -0700, tankfixer
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >YOu need to read the BS coming out of China now as they try to spin the
>> >damage in the earthquake areas
>> >--
>>
>>
>> If only Dubya could claim the same degree of disrepute after Katrina
>> he'd be grinning from ear to ear.
>
>
>Glad you can admit the Chinese people are unhappy with how their
>government is acting.
>That is a good first step.


You really need to take remedial reading lessons.

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 31 May 2008 09:20:54 -0700, tankfixer
> > wrote:
>
>>In article >,
says...
>>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:50:00 -0700, tankfixer
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >YOu need to read the BS coming out of China now as they try to spin the
>>> >damage in the earthquake areas
>>> >--
>>>
>>>
>>> If only Dubya could claim the same degree of disrepute after Katrina
>>> he'd be grinning from ear to ear.
>>
>>
>>Glad you can admit the Chinese people are unhappy with how their
>>government is acting.
>>That is a good first step.
>
>
> You really need to take remedial reading lessons.

You need to take reality lessons.
They [CNN] reported on and showed *parents* who had lost their only child in
the recent earthquakes. These people spoke of their children being told not
to *jump* in the classrooms, by their teachers. Evidently the teachers felt
the schools were of sub-standard construction and were not capable of
sustaining the forces of excited children jumping up and down. The gist of
the story was *the schools* fell down when other buildings remained
standing.
Corruption rules!

cheers....Jeff

[PaPaPeng]

On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:02:01 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> wrote:

>> You really need to take remedial reading lessons.
>
>You need to take reality lessons.
>They [CNN] reported on and showed *parents* who had lost their only child in
>the recent earthquakes. These people spoke of their children being told not
>to *jump* in the classrooms, by their teachers. Evidently the teachers felt
>the schools were of sub-standard construction and were not capable of
>sustaining the forces of excited children jumping up and down. The gist of
>the story was *the schools* fell down when other buildings remained
>standing.
>Corruption rules!
>
> cheers....Jeff


I haven't come across a more idiotic cause and effect hypothesis.

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
> On Sat, 31 May 2008 09:20:54 -0700, tankfixer
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> says...
> >> On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:50:00 -0700, tankfixer
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >YOu need to read the BS coming out of China now as they try to spin the
> >> >damage in the earthquake areas
> >> >--
> >>
> >>
> >> If only Dubya could claim the same degree of disrepute after Katrina
> >> he'd be grinning from ear to ear.
> >
> >
> >Glad you can admit the Chinese people are unhappy with how their
> >government is acting.
> >That is a good first step.
>
>
> You really need to take remedial reading lessons.

After we finish your lessons in Freedom




--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[Dean A. Markley]

Vincent Brannigan wrote:
> PaPaPeng wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 18:31:12 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> PaPaPeng wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 14:52:02 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was personally involved (as a student) in Ping-Pong diplomacy
>>>>> back in 1972
>>>>
>>>> No doubt you were one of the original astronauts who landed on the
>>>> moon too.
>>> No but I was the persons who initiated the contact with USTTA
>>> president Steenhoven on behalf of UMCP Chancellor Charles Bishop to
>>> help arrange the premier venue of the tour, the match at Cole Field
>>> house. This was the only large venue inside the Washington beltway
>>> (12,000 seats)
>>>
>>> "1972: A ping-pong match between the United States and the People's
>>> Republic of China is played at Cole, the first sporting event between
>>> the two countries."
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cole_Field_House
>>>
>>> It was my first date with Dr. Ruth. We met Henry Kissinger
>>>
>>> Vince
>>
>> The 1972 ping pong diplomacy had a lot of press even if it is only
>> Cole Field House archives. Surely you can produce one of those
>> articles with your photo or name on it. Or did those make it to the
>> Mars Mission already. My initial impression of your claim was that
>> you were in the group that went to Beijing from Tokyo. Have you ever
>> been to Beijing or to China? If so or if not on what basis do claim
>> to speak of expertise on what is happening in China and the prevailing
>> public mood there?
>
> I do nothing for those who post with false names
>
>
> Vince Brannigan
>
What a superb reply with that last sentence!

Dean

[PaPaPeng]

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 22:22:11 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
> wrote:

>I do nothing for those who post with false names
>
>
>Vince Brannigan

Good policy. Stick to technical issues. Don't bring in your personal
prejudices, chicoms etc.. I don't care if you are a monkey's uncle.

[PaPaPeng]

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 02:05:13 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
> wrote:

>I am a real person
>
>you can find me in Who's Who in America
>
>I use my real name
>
>when and if you post your real name address etc I will consider you more
>than a toilet wall writer
>
>
>Vince Brannigan
>
>a real person
>

You sound like the twerp at a class reunion who keeps tugging at
everybody's sleeve begging to be noticed.

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
> On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 02:05:13 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
> > wrote:
>
> >I am a real person
> >
> >you can find me in Who's Who in America
> >
> >I use my real name
> >
> >when and if you post your real name address etc I will consider you more
> >than a toilet wall writer
> >
> >
> >Vince Brannigan
> >
> >a real person
> >
>
> You sound like the twerp at a class reunion who keeps tugging at
> everybody's sleeve begging to be noticed.

Pot
Kettle
Black.

--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[Eugene Griessel]

Vince Brannigan > wrote:

>you write like an experienced toilet wall scribbler
>slimy little comments from your anonymous security
>Come back when you have a real name and some courage

Papapeng gain courage? You'll be waiting a long, long time for that
to happen. I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
true?

Eugene L Griessel

And when God, who created the entire universe with all of its glories
decides to deliver a message to humanity, He WILL NOT use as His
messenger, a person on TV with a bad hairstyle.

- I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -

[g lof2]

On Jun 1, 8:02*am, "Jeffrey Hamilton" > wrote:
> "PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 31 May 2008 09:20:54 -0700, tankfixer
> > > wrote:
>
> >>In article >,
> says...
> >>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:50:00 -0700, tankfixer
> >>> > wrote:
>
> >>> >YOu need to read the BS coming out of China now as they try to spin the
> >>> >damage in the earthquake areas
> >>> >--
>
> >>> If only Dubya could claim the same degree of disrepute after Katrina
> >>> he'd be grinning from ear to ear.
>
> >>Glad you can admit the Chinese people are unhappy with how their
> >>government is acting.
> >>That is a good first step.
>
> > You really need to take remedial reading lessons.
>
> You need to take reality lessons.
> They [CNN] reported on and showed *parents* who had lost their only child in
> the recent earthquakes. These people spoke of their children being told not
> to *jump* in the classrooms, by their teachers. Evidently the teachers felt
> the schools were of sub-standard construction and were not capable of
> sustaining the forces of excited children jumping up and down. The gist of
> the story was *the schools* fell down when other buildings remained
> standing.
> Corruption rules!
Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sorry to disappoint you Jeff, but the shear number of build, not just
school, but apartment blocks and factories that colapsed points to
incompents, not Corruption as the problem. As I told Vince, the
promble with codes and standards are that people assume that the
people creating them know what they are doing, and that build to those
standard is safe enough. But codes are rarely customize to specify
areas until after a disaster points out the shortcoming. (Have you
ever notices that the strictes firecode in the US is in Chicago.)
Therefore until the quake hit, the people build the school may have
truly thought they were building safe buildings.

Now I am not saying they might have been cases of corruption in
China's construction industries, but I doubt it was so great to cause
the amount of destruct seen hera.

[Peter Skelton]

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:32:04 GMT, (Eugene
Griessel) wrote:

>Vince Brannigan > wrote:
>
>>you write like an experienced toilet wall scribbler
>>slimy little comments from your anonymous security
>>Come back when you have a real name and some courage
>
>Papapeng gain courage? You'll be waiting a long, long time for that
>to happen. I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
>true?
>
It is meaningless in Mandarin, which is somehow appropriate.


Peter Skelton

[William Black[_1_]]

"Vince Brannigan" > wrote in message
news:rGP0k.2217$BY1.771@trnddc06...

> you write like an experienced toilet wall scribbler
> slimy little comments from your anonymous security
> Come back when you have a real name and some courage

Be serious Vince.

If you were a Chinaman posting to Usenet would you use your real name?

Especially if you still had family back there?

Think what could happen if there was a change in policy and you were down on
Google as supporting the old discredited policy, even if it was the party
line at the time.

Your granny would end up being 're-educated, your parents would lose their
home, and any siblings you have there would spend a couple of weeks being
questioned in some cellar lit by an unshaded bulb that doesn't get switched
off at night.

He's not going to tell you his real name...


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[PaPaPeng]

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:32:04 GMT, (Eugene
Griessel) wrote:

> I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
>true?


Size matters. 1.3 billion beats your 0.3 billion any day.

[La N]

"Vince Brannigan" > wrote in message
news:NeQ0k.1809$qP.789@trnddc03...
> Eugene Griessel wrote:
>> Vince Brannigan > wrote:
>>
>>> you write like an experienced toilet wall scribbler
>>> slimy little comments from your anonymous security
>>> Come back when you have a real name and some courage
>>
>> Papapeng gain courage? You'll be waiting a long, long time for that
>> to happen. I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
>> true?
>>
>> Eugene L Griessel
>>
>> And when God, who created the entire universe with all of its glories
>> decides to deliver a message to humanity, He WILL NOT use as His
>> messenger, a person on TV with a bad hairstyle.
>>
>> - I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
>
> no idea, but toilet wall scribblers are all the same
>

I'm guessing they all have small penises.

- nilita (who's catching on to how men flame each other ...)

[Roger Conroy[_2_]]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:32:04 GMT, (Eugene
> Griessel) wrote:
>
>> I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
>>true?
>
>
> Size matters. 1.3 billion beats your 0.3 billion any day.

How do you connect Eugene to a population of 0.3 billion?

[La N]

"Roger Conroy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:32:04 GMT, (Eugene
>> Griessel) wrote:
>>
>>> I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
>>>true?
>>
>>
>> Size matters. 1.3 billion beats your 0.3 billion any day.
>
> How do you connect Eugene to a population of 0.3 billion?
>
I'm guessing that's the number of baboons that live in Eugene's 'hood.
Unless the ranks have been culled during the recent xenophobe attacks down
there ...;)

- nillita

[PaPaPeng]

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:59:04 +0200, "Roger Conroy"
> wrote:

>
>"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:32:04 GMT, (Eugene
>> Griessel) wrote:
>>
>>> I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
>>>true?
>>
>>
>> Size matters. 1.3 billion beats your 0.3 billion any day.
>
>How do you connect Eugene to a population of 0.3 billion?
>

You guys all look alike.

Except Wee Willie. He only thinks he look like you guys. Hint. He
also belongs to a 1.3 billion strong group that had been trying to
live up to Kama Sutra for more than two millennia. His forebears
could read it in its original edition too.

[Roger Conroy[_2_]]

"La N" > wrote in message
news:f4T0k.493$7B3.492@edtnps91...
>
> "Roger Conroy" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:32:04 GMT, (Eugene
>>> Griessel) wrote:
>>>
>>>> I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
>>>>true?
>>>
>>>
>>> Size matters. 1.3 billion beats your 0.3 billion any day.
>>
>> How do you connect Eugene to a population of 0.3 billion?
>>
> I'm guessing that's the number of baboons that live in Eugene's 'hood.
> Unless the ranks have been culled during the recent xenophobe attacks down
> there ...;)
>
> - nillita
>

Shhhhhh!
Please say that very, very softly otherwise the "Friends of the Baboon" will
be picketing your doorstep!
But you may be onto something, the baboon population of the Cape Peninsula
area is booming since the expansion of the Table Mountain National Park.

Vervet monkeys have recently been seen in my 'hood for the first time in
recorded history!
I live in the Karoo - a semi-desert area almost devoid of trees or large
shrubbery, not ideal monkey country at all.

[William Black[_1_]]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:59:04 +0200, "Roger Conroy"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:32:04 GMT, (Eugene
>>> Griessel) wrote:
>>>
>>>> I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
>>>>true?
>>>
>>>
>>> Size matters. 1.3 billion beats your 0.3 billion any day.
>>
>>How do you connect Eugene to a population of 0.3 billion?
>>
>
> You guys all look alike.
>
> Except Wee Willie. He only thinks he look like you guys. Hint. He
> also belongs to a 1.3 billion strong group that had been trying to
> live up to Kama Sutra for more than two millennia. His forebears
> could read it in its original edition too.

Oh dear, you really do have issues don't you...

I started off a Parsee, now I'm Indian, except there isn't a single Indian
ethnic group.

Look, **** for brains, I'm British, my passports says I'm British, my
father and grandfathers, mother and grandmothers were all born in England.
My father and grandfather both served in the British army in the days when
you had to be born in the UK to join.

No member of my family, except for my father in war time, had ever visited
the Indian sub continent before I did.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
"Roger Conroy" > wrote:

> "La N" > wrote in message
> news:f4T0k.493$7B3.492@edtnps91...
> >
> > "Roger Conroy" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>> On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:32:04 GMT, (Eugene
> >>> Griessel) wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
> >>>>true?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Size matters. 1.3 billion beats your 0.3 billion any day.
> >>
> >> How do you connect Eugene to a population of 0.3 billion?
> >>
> > I'm guessing that's the number of baboons that live in Eugene's 'hood.
> > Unless the ranks have been culled during the recent xenophobe attacks down
> > there ...;)
> >
> > - nillita
> >
>
> Shhhhhh!
> Please say that very, very softly otherwise the "Friends of the Baboon" will
> be picketing your doorstep!
> But you may be onto something, the baboon population of the Cape Peninsula
> area is booming since the expansion of the Table Mountain National Park.
>
> Vervet monkeys have recently been seen in my 'hood for the first time in
> recorded history!
> I live in the Karoo - a semi-desert area almost devoid of trees or large
> shrubbery, not ideal monkey country at all.

Do vervets and baboons compete for the same resources, or are vervets a
dietary resource for the baboons?

[Roger Conroy[_2_]]

"Steve Hix" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Roger Conroy" > wrote:
>
>> "La N" > wrote in message
>> news:f4T0k.493$7B3.492@edtnps91...
>> >
>> > "Roger Conroy" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >>
>> >> "PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >>> On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:32:04 GMT, (Eugene
>> >>> Griessel) wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
>> >>>>true?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Size matters. 1.3 billion beats your 0.3 billion any day.
>> >>
>> >> How do you connect Eugene to a population of 0.3 billion?
>> >>
>> > I'm guessing that's the number of baboons that live in Eugene's 'hood.
>> > Unless the ranks have been culled during the recent xenophobe attacks
>> > down
>> > there ...;)
>> >
>> > - nillita
>> >
>>
>> Shhhhhh!
>> Please say that very, very softly otherwise the "Friends of the Baboon"
>> will
>> be picketing your doorstep!
>> But you may be onto something, the baboon population of the Cape
>> Peninsula
>> area is booming since the expansion of the Table Mountain National Park.
>>
>> Vervet monkeys have recently been seen in my 'hood for the first time in
>> recorded history!
>> I live in the Karoo - a semi-desert area almost devoid of trees or large
>> shrubbery, not ideal monkey country at all.
>
> Do vervets and baboons compete for the same resources, or are vervets a
> dietary resource for the baboons?

No mention of baboon predation of monkeys in the authorotative reference by
Skinner & Skead "Mammals of the Southern African Subregion". I'll try to
remember to ask a zoologist friend when I next see her. Both species are
omnivores but the monkeys "normally" keep to relatively dense woodland while
baboons prefer more open sananna. Baboons are up to 6 times the weight of
vervet monkeys.
BTW, going by the distribution map of vervets in the aformentioned book, the
monkeys in my area are a couple of hundred km from "home", but then the
monkeys don't seem to have read the book!

[PaPaPeng]

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:06:26 +0100, "William Black"
> wrote:

>Look, **** for brains, I'm British, my passports says I'm British, my
>father and grandfathers, mother and grandmothers were all born in England.
>My father and grandfather both served in the British army in the days when
>you had to be born in the UK to join.


Does an Afro-American call himself White? And he has been there
something like 10 generations. Nope he is proud of his Black heritage
and makes no apologies about it. Even Obama who is half White has
identified with the Blacks and he has a good shot at being the next US
President, the most powerful man on this planet.

[William Black[_1_]]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:06:26 +0100, "William Black"
> > wrote:
>
>>Look, **** for brains, I'm British, my passports says I'm British, my
>>father and grandfathers, mother and grandmothers were all born in
>>England.
>>My father and grandfather both served in the British army in the days when
>>you had to be born in the UK to join.
>
>
> Does an Afro-American call himself White? And he has been there
> something like 10 generations. Nope he is proud of his Black heritage
> and makes no apologies about it. Even Obama who is half White has
> identified with the Blacks and he has a good shot at being the next US
> President, the most powerful man on this planet.

But I'm neither black nor living in the USA with its rather odd attitude to
race.

I'm English, rather pale unless tanned, which happens quite quickly in the
far East, and I am undoubtedly of European stock.

And you are a nasty racist.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[Wiley Post]

In <FfG0k.279$jN1.212@trnddc08>, Vincent Brannigan >
wrote:

>Dean A. Markley wrote:
>> Vincent Brannigan wrote:
>>> PaPaPeng wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 18:31:12 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> PaPaPeng wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 14:52:02 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was personally involved (as a student) in Ping-Pong diplomacy
>>>>>>> back in 1972
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No doubt you were one of the original astronauts who landed on the
>>>>>> moon too.
>>>>> No but I was the persons who initiated the contact with USTTA
>>>>> president Steenhoven on behalf of UMCP Chancellor Charles Bishop to
>>>>> help arrange the premier venue of the tour, the match at Cole Field
>>>>> house. This was the only large venue inside the Washington beltway
>>>>> (12,000 seats)
>>>>>
>>>>> "1972: A ping-pong match between the United States and the People's
>>>>> Republic of China is played at Cole, the first sporting event
>>>>> between the two countries."
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cole_Field_House
>>>>>
>>>>> It was my first date with Dr. Ruth. We met Henry Kissinger
>>>>>
>>>>> Vince
>>>>
>>>> The 1972 ping pong diplomacy had a lot of press even if it is only
>>>> Cole Field House archives. Surely you can produce one of those
>>>> articles with your photo or name on it. Or did those make it to the
>>>> Mars Mission already. My initial impression of your claim was that
>>>> you were in the group that went to Beijing from Tokyo. Have you ever
>>>> been to Beijing or to China? If so or if not on what basis do claim
>>>> to speak of expertise on what is happening in China and the prevailing
>>>> public mood there?
>>>
>>> I do nothing for those who post with false names
>>>
>>>
>>> Vince Brannigan
>>>
>> What a superb reply with that last sentence!
>>
>> Dean
>
>I just ignore toilet wall writers who refuse to provide a name

Actually, you don't start "ignoring" them until you get backed into a
logical corner, or can't force yourself to admit that someone else might
actually be right, and you wrong.

You're quite predictable, Vince.

[Wiley Post]

In <ZNS0k.485$7B3.331@edtnps91>, "La N" > wrote:

>"Vince Brannigan" > wrote in message
>news:NeQ0k.1809$qP.789@trnddc03...
>> Eugene Griessel wrote:
>>> Vince Brannigan > wrote:
>>>
>>>> you write like an experienced toilet wall scribbler
>>>> slimy little comments from your anonymous security
>>>> Come back when you have a real name and some courage
>>>
>>> Papapeng gain courage? You'll be waiting a long, long time for that
>>> to happen. I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
>>> true?
>>>
>>> Eugene L Griessel
>>>
>>> And when God, who created the entire universe with all of its glories
>>> decides to deliver a message to humanity, He WILL NOT use as His
>>> messenger, a person on TV with a bad hairstyle.
>>>
>>> - I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
>>
>> no idea, but toilet wall scribblers are all the same
>>
>
>I'm guessing they all have small penises.

And you seem to always be afflicted with penis envy.

>- nilita (who's catching on to how men flame each other ...)

Not even close.

[Dean A. Markley]

Roger Conroy wrote:
> "PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:32:04 GMT, (Eugene
>> Griessel) wrote:
>>
>>> I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
>>> true?
>>
>> Size matters. 1.3 billion beats your 0.3 billion any day.
>
> How do you connect Eugene to a population of 0.3 billion?
>
>
Maybe Eugene has some kids running around that he won't admit to? LOL

Dean

[Dean A. Markley]

Vince Brannigan wrote:
> William Black wrote:
>> "Vince Brannigan" > wrote in message
>> news:rGP0k.2217$BY1.771@trnddc06...
>>
>>> you write like an experienced toilet wall scribbler
>>> slimy little comments from your anonymous security
>>> Come back when you have a real name and some courage
>>
>> Be serious Vince.
>>
>> If you were a Chinaman posting to Usenet would you use your real name?
>>
>> Especially if you still had family back there?
>>
>> Think what could happen if there was a change in policy and you were
>> down on Google as supporting the old discredited policy, even if it
>> was the party line at the time.
>>
>> Your granny would end up being 're-educated, your parents would lose
>> their home, and any siblings you have there would spend a couple of
>> weeks being questioned in some cellar lit by an unshaded bulb that
>> doesn't get switched off at night.
>>
>> He's not going to tell you his real name...
>>
>
> You understood my point
>
> I love it when folks chant anonymously in unison
>
> "We are not under the authoritarian thumb"
>
> Which is why the poster is such a hoot
>
> Vince
He is indeed entertaining at time with his "supertankers armed with
Exocets" and such. I have to say that I really don't understand why
people hide behind these silly monikers. OK, so maybe your government
is ouut to get you. But if I understand correctly, PaPapeng is in
Canada. If the Canadian gov't is out to get him, we are all in trouble!

Dean

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:02:01 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> > wrote:
>
>>> You really need to take remedial reading lessons.
>>
>>You need to take reality lessons.
>>They [CNN] reported on and showed *parents* who had lost their only child
>>in
>>the recent earthquakes. These people spoke of their children being told
>>not
>>to *jump* in the classrooms, by their teachers. Evidently the teachers
>>felt
>>the schools were of sub-standard construction and were not capable of
>>sustaining the forces of excited children jumping up and down. The gist of
>>the story was *the schools* fell down when other buildings remained
>>standing.
>>Corruption rules!
>>
>> cheers....Jeff
>
>
> I haven't come across a more idiotic cause and effect hypothesis.

One couple, who had lost their 12 year old daughter, were not only
devestated, the mother was inconsolable, they were also furious and wanted
answers.

The *school*, where their daughter was crushed to death, was the
_only_building that collapsed.

cheers.....Jeff

[Andrew Swallow[_2_]]

William Black wrote:
[snip]

>
> I started off a Parsee, now I'm Indian, except there isn't a single Indian
> ethnic group.

The Parsees can from Iran, so white IC2.
If the men have been marrying English girls possible IC1 in colour.

Andrew Swallow

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
> On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:32:04 GMT, (Eugene
> Griessel) wrote:
>
> > I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
> >true?
>
>
> Size matters. 1.3 billion beats your 0.3 billion any day.

And here you keep claiming China isn't hostile...

Have you been lying ?


--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
>
> "Vince Brannigan" > wrote in message
> news:rGP0k.2217$BY1.771@trnddc06...
>
> > you write like an experienced toilet wall scribbler
> > slimy little comments from your anonymous security
> > Come back when you have a real name and some courage
>
> Be serious Vince.
>
> If you were a Chinaman posting to Usenet would you use your real name?
>
> Especially if you still had family back there?
>
> Think what could happen if there was a change in policy and you were down on
> Google as supporting the old discredited policy, even if it was the party
> line at the time.
>
> Your granny would end up being 're-educated, your parents would lose their
> home, and any siblings you have there would spend a couple of weeks being
> questioned in some cellar lit by an unshaded bulb that doesn't get switched
> off at night.
>
> He's not going to tell you his real name...


Why shouldn't he use his real name ?
He posts like a wholly owned subsidiary of the PRC.



--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[Andrew Swallow[_2_]]

tankfixer wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>> "Vince Brannigan" > wrote in message
>> news:rGP0k.2217$BY1.771@trnddc06...
>>
>>> you write like an experienced toilet wall scribbler
>>> slimy little comments from your anonymous security
>>> Come back when you have a real name and some courage
>> Be serious Vince.
>>
>> If you were a Chinaman posting to Usenet would you use your real name?
>>
>> Especially if you still had family back there?
>>
>> Think what could happen if there was a change in policy and you were down on
>> Google as supporting the old discredited policy, even if it was the party
>> line at the time.
>>
>> Your granny would end up being 're-educated, your parents would lose their
>> home, and any siblings you have there would spend a couple of weeks being
>> questioned in some cellar lit by an unshaded bulb that doesn't get switched
>> off at night.
>>
>> He's not going to tell you his real name...
>
>
> Why shouldn't he use his real name ?
> He posts like a wholly owned subsidiary of the PRC.
>
You are assuming fairness in a communist country! Following the Party
line did not save Russian officers in the run up to WW2 or privates at
the end of the war. In China the Cultural Revolution sent the middle
classes to work the fields. The current lets work like capitalists will
go out of fashion, possibly under the next leader.

Andrew Swallow

[La N]

"Dean A. Markley" > wrote in message
. ..
> Vince Brannigan wrote:
>> William Black wrote:
>>> "Vince Brannigan" > wrote in message
>>> news:rGP0k.2217$BY1.771@trnddc06...
>>>
>>>> you write like an experienced toilet wall scribbler
>>>> slimy little comments from your anonymous security
>>>> Come back when you have a real name and some courage
>>>
>>> Be serious Vince.
>>>
>>> If you were a Chinaman posting to Usenet would you use your real name?
>>>
>>> Especially if you still had family back there?
>>>
>>> Think what could happen if there was a change in policy and you were
>>> down on Google as supporting the old discredited policy, even if it was
>>> the party line at the time.
>>>
>>> Your granny would end up being 're-educated, your parents would lose
>>> their home, and any siblings you have there would spend a couple of
>>> weeks being questioned in some cellar lit by an unshaded bulb that
>>> doesn't get switched off at night.
>>>
>>> He's not going to tell you his real name...
>>>
>>
>> You understood my point
>>
>> I love it when folks chant anonymously in unison
>>
>> "We are not under the authoritarian thumb"
>>
>> Which is why the poster is such a hoot
>>
>> Vince
> He is indeed entertaining at time with his "supertankers armed with
> Exocets" and such. I have to say that I really don't understand why
> people hide behind these silly monikers. OK, so maybe your government is
> ouut to get you. But if I understand correctly, PaPapeng is in Canada.
> If the Canadian gov't is out to get him, we are all in trouble!
>

I believe Vancouver, specifically, where in a recent census - and I kid you
not - the top 10 most popular surnames were/are:
1.. LEE
2.. WONG
3.. SMITH
4.. CHAN
5.. BROWN
6.. KIM
7.. CHEN
8.. JOHNSON
9.. WILSON
10.. GILL
- nilita

[La N]

"Vincent Brannigan" > wrote in message
news:3H31k.4756$jX.4547@trnddc04...
> Wiley Post wrote:
>> In <FfG0k.279$jN1.212@trnddc08>, Vincent Brannigan >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dean A. Markley wrote:
>>>> Vincent Brannigan wrote:
>>>>> PaPaPeng wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 18:31:12 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PaPaPeng wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 14:52:02 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was personally involved (as a student) in Ping-Pong diplomacy
>>>>>>>>> back in 1972
>>>>>>>> No doubt you were one of the original astronauts who landed on the
>>>>>>>> moon too.
>>>>>>> No but I was the persons who initiated the contact with USTTA
>>>>>>> president Steenhoven on behalf of UMCP Chancellor Charles Bishop to
>>>>>>> help arrange the premier venue of the tour, the match at Cole Field
>>>>>>> house. This was the only large venue inside the Washington beltway
>>>>>>> (12,000 seats)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "1972: A ping-pong match between the United States and the People's
>>>>>>> Republic of China is played at Cole, the first sporting event
>>>>>>> between the two countries."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cole_Field_House
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was my first date with Dr. Ruth. We met Henry Kissinger
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vince
>>>>>> The 1972 ping pong diplomacy had a lot of press even if it is only
>>>>>> Cole Field House archives. Surely you can produce one of those
>>>>>> articles with your photo or name on it. Or did those make it to the
>>>>>> Mars Mission already. My initial impression of your claim was that
>>>>>> you were in the group that went to Beijing from Tokyo. Have you ever
>>>>>> been to Beijing or to China? If so or if not on what basis do claim
>>>>>> to speak of expertise on what is happening in China and the
>>>>>> prevailing
>>>>>> public mood there?
>>>>> I do nothing for those who post with false names
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Vince Brannigan
>>>>>
>>>> What a superb reply with that last sentence!
>>>>
>>>> Dean
>>> I just ignore toilet wall writers who refuse to provide a name
>>
>> Actually, you don't start "ignoring" them until you get backed into a
>> logical corner, or can't force yourself to admit that someone else might
>> actually be right, and you wrong.
>>
>> You're quite predictable, Vince.
>>
>>
> nonsense
>
> if they want to present logic or fact based argument no problem
> when they lose and shift to nasty anonymous insults I
> ignore them for the toilet wall writers they are
>

This anonymous coward, "Wiley Post", is yet another who hit my killfile from
the get go. Anonymous cowards who get sh*tcanned from post 1 include those
who post from anonymous remailers or those who usurp the names of deceased
celebrities.

- nilita

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 04:45:07 GMT, "La N" >
wrote:

>This anonymous coward, "Wiley Post", is yet another who hit my killfile from
>the get go. Anonymous cowards who get sh*tcanned from post 1 include those
>who post from anonymous remailers or those who usurp the names of deceased
>celebrities.
>
>- nilita
>
But you and the rest of your gang still read all my (and Wiley's, et
al) posts and get your ire up. That's power because I/we can still
mess up your minds. I am less interested in winning any particular
argument than in forcing you to re-examine your presumptions. An
unavoidable consequence of arguing with me is that over time you will
have to refine your arguments if you don't want to pop a blood vessel
first. Pointless anger directed at anonymous cowardly provokers is to
say the least pointless. Your remedy is to come up with a better
argument the next time, one where I cannot poke holes into or turn
around to bite you.

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 04:13:06 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
> wrote:

>PaPaPeng wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:06:26 +0100, "William Black"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Look, **** for brains, I'm British, my passports says I'm British, my
>>> father and grandfathers, mother and grandmothers were all born in England.
>>> My father and grandfather both served in the British army in the days when
>>> you had to be born in the UK to join.
>>
>>
>> Does an Afro-American call himself White? And he has been there
>> something like 10 generations. Nope he is proud of his Black heritage
>> and makes no apologies about it. Even Obama who is half White has
>> identified with the Blacks and he has a good shot at being the next US
>> President, the most powerful man on this planet.
>
>you are confusing an ethnic background with citizenship/nationality
>
>silly but typical
>
>
>Vince
>
Exactly. Being a Parsi is an ethnic designation. Born into it and
can't hide it. Nothing to be ashamed of and much to br proud of. I
had never made any crass allusions to his being Parsi as undesirable
or inferior. But it seems terribly important to Wee Willy to be
identified as being British (a citizenship/nationality status) as a
valid ethnic group that subsumes his Parsi(nicity). When Willie
launches one of his not very smart posts this "I can pass off as a
White any day " is a very easy chain to yank to bring Willie back to
reality.

By the way, before the original thread gets lost, Bush will not bomb
Iraq by August.

[PaPaPeng]

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:44:48 -0700, tankfixer >
wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>> On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:32:04 GMT, (Eugene
>> Griessel) wrote:
>>
>> > I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
>> >true?
>>
>>
>> Size matters. 1.3 billion beats your 0.3 billion any day.
>
>And here you keep claiming China isn't hostile...
>
>Have you been lying ?

If you consider a billion wee peckers hostile what can I say. Do read
the instructions on the package they came in and decide for yourself.

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 02:17:07 GMT, "La N" >
wrote:

>
>"Dean A. Markley" > wrote in message
. ..
>> Vince Brannigan wrote:
>>> William Black wrote:
>>>> "Vince Brannigan" > wrote in message
>>>> news:rGP0k.2217$BY1.771@trnddc06...
>>>>
>>>>> you write like an experienced toilet wall scribbler
>>>>> slimy little comments from your anonymous security
>>>>> Come back when you have a real name and some courage
>>>>
>>>> Be serious Vince.
>>>>
>>>> If you were a Chinaman posting to Usenet would you use your real name?
>>>>
>>>> Especially if you still had family back there?
>>>>
>>>> Think what could happen if there was a change in policy and you were
>>>> down on Google as supporting the old discredited policy, even if it was
>>>> the party line at the time.
>>>>
>>>> Your granny would end up being 're-educated, your parents would lose
>>>> their home, and any siblings you have there would spend a couple of
>>>> weeks being questioned in some cellar lit by an unshaded bulb that
>>>> doesn't get switched off at night.
>>>>
>>>> He's not going to tell you his real name...
>>>>
>>>
>>> You understood my point
>>>
>>> I love it when folks chant anonymously in unison
>>>
>>> "We are not under the authoritarian thumb"
>>>
>>> Which is why the poster is such a hoot
>>>
>>> Vince
>> He is indeed entertaining at time with his "supertankers armed with
>> Exocets" and such. I have to say that I really don't understand why
>> people hide behind these silly monikers. OK, so maybe your government is
>> ouut to get you. But if I understand correctly, PaPapeng is in Canada.
>> If the Canadian gov't is out to get him, we are all in trouble!
>>
>
>I believe Vancouver, specifically, where in a recent census - and I kid you
>not - the top 10 most popular surnames were/are:
> 1.. LEE
> 2.. WONG
> 3.. SMITH
> 4.. CHAN
> 5.. BROWN
> 6.. KIM
> 7.. CHEN
> 8.. JOHNSON
> 9.. WILSON
> 10.. GILL
>- nilita
>
"Popular" is the wrong adjective. You don't get to chose your surname
to skew the count.. If you really want to freak out go visit the
universities, the professional centers and the upscale residential
areas. If you are not Chinese you'd stick out like a sore thumb.

[PaPaPeng]

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:46:33 -0700, tankfixer >
wrote:

>
>Why shouldn't he use his real name ?
>He posts like a wholly owned subsidiary of the PRC.

PRC = PaPaPeng's + R(?) + C(?)

Go run with it and come up with a catchy mission statement ID.

[PaPaPeng]

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:38:05 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> wrote:

>
>"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:02:01 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>> You really need to take remedial reading lessons.
>>>
>>>You need to take reality lessons.
>>>They [CNN] reported on and showed *parents* who had lost their only child
>>>in
>>>the recent earthquakes. These people spoke of their children being told
>>>not
>>>to *jump* in the classrooms, by their teachers. Evidently the teachers
>>>felt
>>>the schools were of sub-standard construction and were not capable of
>>>sustaining the forces of excited children jumping up and down. The gist of
>>>the story was *the schools* fell down when other buildings remained
>>>standing.
>>>Corruption rules!
>>>
>>> cheers....Jeff
>>
>>
>> I haven't come across a more idiotic cause and effect hypothesis.
>
>One couple, who had lost their 12 year old daughter, were not only
>devestated, the mother was inconsolable, they were also furious and wanted
>answers.
>
>The *school*, where their daughter was crushed to death, was the
>_only_building that collapsed.
>
> cheers.....Jeff
>
A very reasonable and normal reaction to intense personal grief.

It is this attribution that is ridiculous

> These people spoke of their children being told
>>not to *jump* in the classrooms, by their teachers. Evidently the teachers
>>felt the schools were of sub-standard construction and were not capable of
>>sustaining the forces of excited children jumping up and down.

[Dan[_12_]]

PaPaPeng wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 04:13:06 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
> > wrote:
>
>> PaPaPeng wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:06:26 +0100, "William Black"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Look, **** for brains, I'm British, my passports says I'm British, my
>>>> father and grandfathers, mother and grandmothers were all born in England.
>>>> My father and grandfather both served in the British army in the days when
>>>> you had to be born in the UK to join.
>>>
>>> Does an Afro-American call himself White? And he has been there
>>> something like 10 generations. Nope he is proud of his Black heritage
>>> and makes no apologies about it. Even Obama who is half White has
>>> identified with the Blacks and he has a good shot at being the next US
>>> President, the most powerful man on this planet.
>> you are confusing an ethnic background with citizenship/nationality
>>
>> silly but typical
>>
>>
>> Vince
>>
> Exactly. Being a Parsi is an ethnic designation. Born into it and
> can't hide it. Nothing to be ashamed of and much to br proud of. I
> had never made any crass allusions to his being Parsi as undesirable
> or inferior. But it seems terribly important to Wee Willy to be
> identified as being British (a citizenship/nationality status) as a
> valid ethnic group that subsumes his Parsi(nicity). When Willie
> launches one of his not very smart posts this "I can pass off as a
> White any day " is a very easy chain to yank to bring Willie back to
> reality.
>
> By the way, before the original thread gets lost, Bush will not bomb
> Iraq by August.

That's true, but then again, the U.S. has been fighting there for
years. Remember Saddam Hussein?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:38:05 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:02:01 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>> You really need to take remedial reading lessons.
>>>>
>>>>You need to take reality lessons.
>>>>They [CNN] reported on and showed *parents* who had lost their only
>>>>child
>>>>in
>>>>the recent earthquakes. These people spoke of their children being told
>>>>not
>>>>to *jump* in the classrooms, by their teachers. Evidently the teachers
>>>>felt
>>>>the schools were of sub-standard construction and were not capable of
>>>>sustaining the forces of excited children jumping up and down. The gist
>>>>of
>>>>the story was *the schools* fell down when other buildings remained
>>>>standing.
>>>>Corruption rules!
>>>>
>>>> cheers....Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>> I haven't come across a more idiotic cause and effect hypothesis.
>>
>>One couple, who had lost their 12 year old daughter, were not only
>>devestated, the mother was inconsolable, they were also furious and wanted
>>answers.
>>
>>The *school*, where their daughter was crushed to death, was the
>>_only_building that collapsed.
>>
>> cheers.....Jeff
>>
> A very reasonable and normal reaction to intense personal grief.
>
> It is this attribution that is ridiculous
>
>> These people spoke of their children being told
>>>not to *jump* in the classrooms, by their teachers. Evidently the
>>>teachers
>>>felt the schools were of sub-standard construction and were not capable
>>>of
>>>sustaining the forces of excited children jumping up and down.

Say what you like sport, I'm repeating what was broadcast on CNN.

cheers....Jeff

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 04:45:07 GMT, "La N" >
> wrote:
>
>>This anonymous coward, "Wiley Post", is yet another who hit my killfile
>>from
>>the get go. Anonymous cowards who get sh*tcanned from post 1 include those
>>who post from anonymous remailers or those who usurp the names of deceased
>>celebrities.
>>
>>- nilita
>>
> But you and the rest of your gang still read all my (and Wiley's, et
> al) posts and get your ire up. That's power because I/we can still
> mess up your minds. I am less interested in winning any particular
> argument than in forcing you to re-examine your presumptions. An
> unavoidable consequence of arguing with me is that over time you will
> have to refine your arguments if you don't want to pop a blood vessel
> first. Pointless anger directed at anonymous cowardly provokers is to
> say the least pointless. Your remedy is to come up with a better
> argument the next time, one where I cannot poke holes into or turn
> around to bite you.

You flatter yourself, Post is killfiled, you would be too, if it wasn't for
the fact your an Chinese alien living in Canada, but support a communist
doctrine. You caught my attention with your constant bleating about
communist China and her successes, so now I'm keeping tab's on you, as it
were.
Congratulate yourself on that.

cheers....Jeff

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 03:39:56 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> wrote:

>
>"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 04:45:07 GMT, "La N" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>This anonymous coward, "Wiley Post", is yet another who hit my killfile
>>>from
>>>the get go. Anonymous cowards who get sh*tcanned from post 1 include those
>>>who post from anonymous remailers or those who usurp the names of deceased
>>>celebrities.
>>>
>>>- nilita
>>>
>> But you and the rest of your gang still read all my (and Wiley's, et
>> al) posts and get your ire up. That's power because I/we can still
>> mess up your minds. I am less interested in winning any particular
>> argument than in forcing you to re-examine your presumptions. An
>> unavoidable consequence of arguing with me is that over time you will
>> have to refine your arguments if you don't want to pop a blood vessel
>> first. Pointless anger directed at anonymous cowardly provokers is to
>> say the least pointless. Your remedy is to come up with a better
>> argument the next time, one where I cannot poke holes into or turn
>> around to bite you.
>
>You flatter yourself, Post is killfiled, you would be too, if it wasn't for
>the fact your an Chinese alien living in Canada, but support a communist
>doctrine. You caught my attention with your constant bleating about
>communist China and her successes, so now I'm keeping tab's on you, as it
>were.
>Congratulate yourself on that.
>
> cheers....Jeff
>

Hah. Gotcha. You did read this thread. Okay. I normally don't keep
track of who SMN personalities are, Wee Willie of the chain yank
excepted. Apologies Willie. Just couldn't resist. But I'll make a
exception for you and check if you (Jeff) do still respond to my
posts. I'll assume that you read at least ten of my post before you
jump in to respond to one.

SMN is the only newsgroup where people say the'll killfile me. If I
get paid a buck (even a buck doesn't have the impact of a penny from
not that long ago) I'd soon have enough to go for a celebratory steak
dinner. Amassing enough penny enemies to become the metaphoric
millionaire is possible only in China. Aw heck. I pay myself a buck
per killfile mention anyway. I am a noodles restaurant guy with only
an occasional yen for a steak dinner. The estimated timing for one
per filling a killfile quota sounds about right.

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 02:24:32 -0500, Dan > wrote:

>> By the way, before the original thread gets lost, Bush will not bomb
>> Iraq by August.
>
> That's true, but then again, the U.S. has been fighting there for
>years. Remember Saddam Hussein?
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


Aaarrgh. I meant Iran. Posting at 2 am thereabouts does make one's
attention to detail flakey. But I am still ahead of McCain who even
when wide ahead can't tell the difference between Sunni and Shiite
never mind the at least half a dozen varieties of obligatory
islamofacists.

[La N]

"Jeffrey Hamilton" > wrote in message
...
>
> "PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 04:45:07 GMT, "La N" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>This anonymous coward, "Wiley Post", is yet another who hit my killfile
>>>from
>>>the get go. Anonymous cowards who get sh*tcanned from post 1 include
>>>those
>>>who post from anonymous remailers or those who usurp the names of
>>>deceased
>>>celebrities.
>>>
>>>- nilita
>>>
>> But you and the rest of your gang still read all my (and Wiley's, et
>> al) posts and get your ire up. That's power because I/we can still
>> mess up your minds. I am less interested in winning any particular
>> argument than in forcing you to re-examine your presumptions. An
>> unavoidable consequence of arguing with me is that over time you will
>> have to refine your arguments if you don't want to pop a blood vessel
>> first. Pointless anger directed at anonymous cowardly provokers is to
>> say the least pointless. Your remedy is to come up with a better
>> argument the next time, one where I cannot poke holes into or turn
>> around to bite you.
>
> You flatter yourself, Post is killfiled, you would be too, if it wasn't
> for the fact your an Chinese alien living in Canada, but support a
> communist doctrine. You caught my attention with your constant bleating
> about communist China and her successes, so now I'm keeping tab's on you,
> as it were.
> Congratulate yourself on that.
>
> cheers....Jeff
>

Ummm ... there is something wrong in what PaPaPeng wrote. He implied that I
read him. I don't. I read some other people's responses to him.

- nilita, whose killfile overfloweth ...

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 03:29:51 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> wrote:

>Say what you like sport, I'm repeating what was broadcast on CNN.
>
> cheers....Jeff


I was going to quote an authoritative source (a close friend in
acedemia and industry) on how mainstream US media mangles the news and
led the country into its current disaster and the ensuing lack of
viable alternatives to get the country out of the quagmire. But I am
sure he will not appreciate my identifying him as would be necessary
to give credence to him as the source. My reply was yes that's how
the game is being played, the US establishment demonizing China
regardless of the evidence and the facts. The only effective response
is to for China to continue doing what it believes is right for
herself and let the results speak for themselves. The results have
been consistent and darm good for the past 60 years. Proof-can you
cite any accusation that the US made over the past 60 years that
stuck? That you are still rehashing the same stuff doesn't count
since you haven't scored a goal yet.

For a good inside view of the US mainstream media and how they have
fallen do read the articles in Tom Dispatch
http://www.tomdispatch.com/ [Tomdispatch.com is for anyone seeking a
deeper understanding of our post-9/11 world and a clear sense of how
our imperial globe actually works. Read more about the site's founder
and editor Tom Engelhardt and his guest authors. ]

There are lots of other authoritative US articles that bemoan the
current state of the US Fourth Estate. But it is something you will
have to be interested enough yourself to read them up and notice the
demise of objectivity and accuracy in US reporting. CNN? Pshaw. Its
going down the drain in the direction of FOX News. Its all about
advertising revenues and not offending those who pay the bills,
objectivity be damned.

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:00:39 GMT, "La N" >
wrote:

>
>Ummm ... there is something wrong in what PaPaPeng wrote. He implied that I
>read him. I don't. I read some other people's responses to him.
>
>- nilita, whose killfile overfloweth ...
>


Ummm. Didn't you just read my post in order to respond?

That's really too bad. You let your judgement be predeterimned by
others and then jump into the fray based on inadequate and biased
knowledge. That's what makes cannon fodder cannon fodder.

I agree with your short cut regarding posts to read. My method is to
1. Is the subject header of interest to me? 2. How many responses are
there to the post? 3. Pick a responder known to be a reasonably
objective one and see what he says. 4. If his comments are
interesting (I learnt something) I read the original post to see where
everything is coming from. 5. I read a few more posts and get a feel
of the general mood. 6. Go from there.

Another of my practices is when I come across an interesting article I
post it in full and with the URL and date. I don't make any comments,
meaning I agree with the main body of the writer's arguments. Most of
the articles will be written by Western writers for that skips a lot
of racial prejudice that have nothing to do with the importance of
the subject. I do this is because a majority of you guys don't read.

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:01:34 GMT, PaPaPeng > wrote:

>CNN? Pshaw. Its
>going down the drain in the direction of FOX News. Its all about
>advertising revenues and not offending those who pay the bills,
>objectivity be damned.


The thought just crossed my mind. Its not about greed chasing the
almighty (ads) dollar. It is about desperation. The Internet is
indeed an instrument that freed mankind from the bonds of many old
conventions. People get their information from the Internet these days
- very current, free, uncensored, in any color or form, etc. though
often lacking in depth. The unintended consequence is nobody reads
newspapers anymore. Print media is dying. So is broadcast news.
These are very high cost establishments chasing ever decreasing
advertising dollars. Their product has to be as uncontroversial as
possible (aka bland and unoffensive). The media has to pander to
popular prejudices when that arises (more advert income or die)rather
than its traditional role to lead and form public opinion. This has
changed your landscape more than you realize - how come with more than
60 per cent of the people disapproving where the US is heading you
still can't change direction?? It has also changed the rest of the
world. The white guys aren't that formidable. What they can do
(development in a modern world)we also can.

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 03:29:51 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> > wrote:
>
>>Say what you like sport, I'm repeating what was broadcast on CNN.
>>
>> cheers....Jeff
>
>
<snippage of rant about news coverage>

Listen fool, spout what you like, pictures tell a thousand words.

They were holding up a piece of concrete, supposedly reinforced. What the
builder had used for reinforcement was a joke.
Instead of rebar, it looked like he had used that very light steel-mesh
material (approx. 6"x6" square) that we use to support a concrete slab in a
garage floor that is laid over 6" of compacted gravel.
Instead of using rebar, which you or I wouldn't be able to bend with our
bare hands, he used material a four year old could twist out of shape.
Don't tell me what I saw fool, I'll tell you.

cheers....Jeff

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:01:34 GMT, PaPaPeng > wrote:
>
>>CNN? Pshaw. Its
>>going down the drain in the direction of FOX News. Its all about
>>advertising revenues and not offending those who pay the bills,
>>objectivity be damned.
>
>
> The thought just crossed my mind. Its not about greed chasing the
> almighty (ads) dollar. It is about desperation.

blah, blah, blah

Desperation is correct.
Your desperation, to put a spin on what is not only a national tragedy, but
also a national disgrace.
Noone is saying buildings won't fall with a strong earth quake. What people
are pointing out, is a large percentage of the demolished buildings were
school's, seemingly built to shoddy standards.

cheers.....Jeff

[JJS[_2_]]

In article >,
wrote:

> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:01:34 GMT, PaPaPeng > wrote:
>
> >CNN? Pshaw. Its
> >going down the drain in the direction of FOX News. Its all about
> >advertising revenues and not offending those who pay the bills,
> >objectivity be damned.
>
>
> The thought just crossed my mind. Its not about greed chasing the
> almighty (ads) dollar. It is about desperation. The Internet is
> indeed an instrument that freed mankind from the bonds of many old
> conventions. People get their information from the Internet these days
> - very current, free, uncensored, in any color or form, etc. though
> often lacking in depth.

True and it is a shame that the Chinese don't have this "uncensored"
access to the internet wouldn't you say? ;^)

>The unintended consequence is nobody reads
> newspapers anymore. Print media is dying. So is broadcast news.


Broadcast news is simply moving to the internet. Same
people different playing field.


> These are very high cost establishments chasing ever decreasing
> advertising dollars. Their product has to be as uncontroversial as
> possible (aka bland and unoffensive).


The problem with this is that controversy generates interest,
which translates to increase in your audience.


>The media has to pander to
> popular prejudices when that arises (more advert income or die)rather
> than its traditional role to lead and form public opinion.
>This has
> changed your landscape more than you realize

Several decades ago the News department was not expected to
generate income for the three television networks, ABC,NBC and CBS.
Since these networks were the only show in town they could use
the revenue from their entertainment programs to pay for their
news coverage. This has changed and they now are no longer
immune to the need to generate money. This has changed the
landscape of TV news.


- how come with more than
> 60 per cent of the people disapproving where the US is heading you
> still can't change direction??


Because of the system we have you can't "change directions" without
an election. In the last election the democrats grabbed the legislative
branch of the government but they need the executive branch to
really change things. Of course what change really means is
open to interpretation.


>It has also changed the rest of the
> world. The white guys aren't that formidable. What they can do
> (development in a modern world)we also can.

I know is looks like the Chinese have adopted the "white man's burden".
You know bringing civilization to the less fortunate whether they
want it or not e.g. Tibet.

Joe

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 03:39:56 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 04:45:07 GMT, "La N" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>This anonymous coward, "Wiley Post", is yet another who hit my killfile
>>>>from
>>>>the get go. Anonymous cowards who get sh*tcanned from post 1 include
>>>>those
>>>>who post from anonymous remailers or those who usurp the names of
>>>>deceased
>>>>celebrities.
>>>>
>>>>- nilita
>>>>
>>> But you and the rest of your gang still read all my (and Wiley's, et
>>> al) posts and get your ire up. That's power because I/we can still
>>> mess up your minds. I am less interested in winning any particular
>>> argument than in forcing you to re-examine your presumptions. An
>>> unavoidable consequence of arguing with me is that over time you will
>>> have to refine your arguments if you don't want to pop a blood vessel
>>> first. Pointless anger directed at anonymous cowardly provokers is to
>>> say the least pointless. Your remedy is to come up with a better
>>> argument the next time, one where I cannot poke holes into or turn
>>> around to bite you.
>>
>>You flatter yourself, Post is killfiled, you would be too, if it wasn't
>>for
>>the fact your an Chinese alien living in Canada, but support a communist
>>doctrine. You caught my attention with your constant bleating about
>>communist China and her successes, so now I'm keeping tab's on you, as it
>>were.
>>Congratulate yourself on that.
>>
>> cheers....Jeff
>>
>
> Hah. Gotcha.

No you didn't

>You did read this thread.

Fix your comprehension problem's fool.
I stated above I keep track of your posting's and I told you why.

>Okay. I normally don't keep
> track of who SMN personalities are,
..>But I'll make a exception for you and check if you (Jeff) do still respond
to my
> posts.

Occasionally I respond, that's all. I'm not part of a tag-team, fool.
As often as not someone else is tearing a strip of your hide, so there is no
need for me to do anything other than read and laugh.

<I'll assume that you read at least ten of my post before you
> jump in to respond to one.

Alway's remember 'assume', makes an ass of u and me.
If your post comes through I read it.
Not for it's intrinsic value, merely to keep track of the thought patterns
of a Chinese communist shill.
No more, no less.

> SMN is the only newsgroup where people say the'll killfile me.

Many probably have. They aren't interested in a Chinese communist shill.
I have a vested interest, you are _in_ my country !

>If I get paid a buck (even a buck doesn't have the impact of a penny from
> not that long ago) I'd soon have enough to go for a celebratory steak
> dinner. Amassing enough penny enemies to become the metaphoric
> millionaire is possible only in China. Aw heck. I pay myself a buck
> per killfile mention anyway. I am a noodles restaurant guy with only
> an occasional yen for a steak dinner. The estimated timing for one
> per filling a killfile quota sounds about right.

Pay yourself whatever you like, hell, give yourself a raise, who cares?

cheers....Jeff

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"La N" > wrote in message
news:Hna1k.620$7B3.258@edtnps91...
>
> "Jeffrey Hamilton" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 04:45:07 GMT, "La N" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>This anonymous coward, "Wiley Post", is yet another who hit my killfile
>>>>from
>>>>the get go. Anonymous cowards who get sh*tcanned from post 1 include
>>>>those
>>>>who post from anonymous remailers or those who usurp the names of
>>>>deceased
>>>>celebrities.
>>>>
>>>>- nilita
>>>>
>>> But you and the rest of your gang still read all my (and Wiley's, et
>>> al) posts and get your ire up. That's power because I/we can still
>>> mess up your minds. I am less interested in winning any particular
>>> argument than in forcing you to re-examine your presumptions. An
>>> unavoidable consequence of arguing with me is that over time you will
>>> have to refine your arguments if you don't want to pop a blood vessel
>>> first. Pointless anger directed at anonymous cowardly provokers is to
>>> say the least pointless. Your remedy is to come up with a better
>>> argument the next time, one where I cannot poke holes into or turn
>>> around to bite you.
>>
>> You flatter yourself, Post is killfiled, you would be too, if it wasn't
>> for the fact your an Chinese alien living in Canada, but support a
>> communist doctrine. You caught my attention with your constant bleating
>> about communist China and her successes, so now I'm keeping tab's on you,
>> as it were.
>> Congratulate yourself on that.
>>
>> cheers....Jeff
>>
>
> Ummm ... there is something wrong in what PaPaPeng wrote. He implied that
> I read him. I don't. I read some other people's responses to him.
>

Yes nilita I copy, that happens alot doesn't it?
Annoying, but it seem's to be the price of addmission to USENET usage.

cheers....Jeff

> - nilita, whose killfile overfloweth ...

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 08:28:30 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

>I know is looks like the Chinese have adopted the "white man's burden".
>You know bringing civilization to the less fortunate whether they
>want it or not e.g. Tibet.
>
>Joe


On the contrary. Tibet is being developed for China's benefit as
Tibet's resources and vast space is needed. Development will not wait
for Tibetans slow to get into the game. Tibetans are in the best
position to benefit from this investment as the rules are already in
place to let them have first pick. But the Tibetans must also have
the attitude, aptitude and the ability to take advantage of these
opportunities. To quit with barely a grade 6 education with no
(Chinese majority or foreign) language skills dooms one to making a
living off equally disadvantaged fellow Tibetans. (Being a monk
inures one to life's hardships but is quite useless for making a
living.) Your Afro-American experience is an excellent parallel.
Providing barely earned advantages to all 2.5 million Tibetans in a
population of 1.3 billion Chinese is no problem at all. But these
advantages must still be earned regardless of at how low a level.

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:03:25 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> wrote:

>
>"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 03:29:51 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Say what you like sport, I'm repeating what was broadcast on CNN.
>>>
>>> cheers....Jeff
>>
>>
> <snippage of rant about news coverage>
>
> Listen fool, spout what you like, pictures tell a thousand words.
>
>They were holding up a piece of concrete, supposedly reinforced. What the
>builder had used for reinforcement was a joke.
>Instead of rebar, it looked like he had used that very light steel-mesh
>material (approx. 6"x6" square) that we use to support a concrete slab in a
>garage floor that is laid over 6" of compacted gravel.
>Instead of using rebar, which you or I wouldn't be able to bend with our
>bare hands, he used material a four year old could twist out of shape.
>Don't tell me what I saw fool, I'll tell you.
>
> cheers....Jeff
>

Look you twerp. When a US army squad in Iraq murders a family there
is all this outrage and moves to put them on trial and establish the
rules of combat, better training, better supervision and all those
highfalutin declarations of how things will be better in future. When
the Army found out that murdering innocent Iraqi families is pretty
common (more than a million killings in 7 1/2 years and still going
strong) everyone shut up pretty fast and imposed laughbly
insignificant sentences on less than a handful of perpetrators stupid
enough to get caught.

Ergo when a single building disintegrates in a humongous earthquake
you can point fingers and sacrifice a few goats to satisfy public
outrage. When more than 300 schools disintegrated the same way you
are going to prosecute anyone and everyone who had a hand in building
those schools? You are certainly very naive in the ways things work.

I'll tell you one remarkable example how the Chinese system works.
When DXP came back to power the Cultural Revolution was still alive
until they arrested the Gang of Four. With the devastation that the
CR and the GLF (Great Leap Forward) and other Mao inspired disasters
there was a tremendous amount of damage to be made good. So DXP
decreed that there were far too many injustices and far too many
interconnected crimes ever to sort out. Getting China back on track
was of paramount importance. So there was to be no recriminationsw,
no boards of inquiries, no investigations into what had gone on
before. He (DXP) himself was treated very badly. His eldest son (a
physics undergrad then)was thrown from or had leapt from an upper
storey and crippled. The son was denied medical attention and is now
a quadripelgic. If DXP did not seek revenge no one else could and the
bad blood that would have flowed and poisoned everything never did.

So it will be with this earthquake. The first order of things is to
get back the countryside in order and the people housed and gainfully
employed. Before the end of the year is out the debris will have been
cleared and reconstruction begun. Premier Wen has declared that
within three years all the roads, bridges and infrastructures will be
repaired. They will be finished ahead of schedule. In that three
years will arise new cities, towns and residential areas as if they
seemed to have sprouted from the ground overnight. You would have
never known that there was an earthquake just three years before. In
that time or after, if key people have been found to be willfully
negilgent or corrupt, the guilt can then be established. There are no
on-a-technicality escape routes in the Chinese courts system. But
meantime screw your CNN attempts to paint a fumbling and dysfuntional
picture of Chinese people.

[William Black[_1_]]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...

When Willie
> launches one of his not very smart posts this "I can pass off as a
> White any day "

But I didn't.

You're a liar.

I said I can pass in India as a local when I'm tanned.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:23:59 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
> wrote:

>PaPaPeng wrote:
>
>>>
>> "Popular" is the wrong adjective. You don't get to chose your surname
>> to skew the count.. If you really want to freak out go visit the
>> universities, the professional centers and the upscale residential
>> areas. If you are not Chinese you'd stick out like a sore thumb.
>
>Sure, Just like Jews in New York during the Nazi time
>We get the best
>Authoritarian countries tend to export very fine people
>
>Vince


Hey. Maybe you have a self correcting solution here to the Jewish
conspriracy. In time the Chinese community will be the elite stratum
in American Society and displace the Jewish-Neocon cabal. That will
solve many of America's global problems.

>We get the best
>Authoritarian countries tend to export very fine people

You're welcome. There are at least ten thousand times their numbers
in the mainland who are as smart if not smarter. We can spare as many
as you are willing to take. Employment opportunities are scarce in
China even for top brains.

[JJS[_2_]]

In article >,
wrote:

> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 08:28:30 -0700, (JJS)
> wrote:
>
> >I know is looks like the Chinese have adopted the "white man's burden".
> >You know bringing civilization to the less fortunate whether they
> >want it or not e.g. Tibet.
> >
> >Joe
>
>
> On the contrary. Tibet is being developed for China's benefit as
> Tibet's resources and vast space is needed.

True.

>Development will not wait
> for Tibetans slow to get into the game.

I know this is where the "whether they want it or not" comes in.

>Tibetans are in the best
> position to benefit from this investment as the rules are already in
> place to let them have first pick.

Well there's the problem. The large immigration of Chinese to Tibet
could be considered a threat by the local Tibetan population. They
might argue that the first pick goes to the Chinese or those Tibetans
loyal to the Chinese rather than the general population. At least that's
how it usually works in the rest of the world.


>But the Tibetans must also have
> the attitude, aptitude and the ability to take advantage of these
> opportunities.

I know this is where the "whether they want it or not" comes in.

>To quit with barely a grade 6 education with no
> (Chinese majority or foreign) language skills dooms one to making a
> living off equally disadvantaged fellow Tibetans. (Being a monk
> inures one to life's hardships but is quite useless for making a
> living.)

I agree but when does it become someone else¹s choice (non-Tibetan)
that they change the way they live their life? I'm not saying
that the local population had a better life style before the
Chinese decided to improve things. I'm just wondering who gets to
decide what happens in Tibet.

>Your Afro-American experience is an excellent parallel.

I don't see the parallel.

> Providing barely earned advantages to all 2.5 million Tibetans in a
> population of 1.3 billion Chinese is no problem at all. But these
> advantages must still be earned regardless of at how low a level.

I know this is where the "whether they want it or not" comes in.

Joe

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:52:00 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

>>Your Afro-American experience is an excellent parallel.
>
>I don't see the parallel.
>
>> Providing barely earned advantages to all 2.5 million Tibetans in a
>> population of 1.3 billion Chinese is no problem at all. But these
>> advantages must still be earned regardless of at how low a level.
>
>I know this is where the "whether they want it or not" comes in.
>
>Joe


I thought my reply was pretty clear on that. The sun will surely
rise tomorrow morning and the world will revolve as it had always done
since time began. Whether anyone wants it or not.

Tibet will be developed whether they want it or not.

The parallel with your Afro-American community is that there is no
lack of effort and no shortage of funding to raise the educational
standards and employability of their chilkdren. Your best brains and
your best intentions all had their go at the problem and there isn't
even a language problem. Yet Afro-Americans, as a community, are
falling behind further than ever.

One can only do one's best. If for all that effort and it still
doesn't work one can only keep trying. But feel guilt? Nah. Guilt
over nebulous concepts is an American disease.

[Wiley Post]

In <n%31k.591$7B3.19@edtnps91>, "La N" > wrote:

>
>"Vincent Brannigan" > wrote in message
>news:3H31k.4756$jX.4547@trnddc04...
>> Wiley Post wrote:
>>> In <FfG0k.279$jN1.212@trnddc08>, Vincent Brannigan >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dean A. Markley wrote:
>>>>> Vincent Brannigan wrote:
>>>>>> PaPaPeng wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 18:31:12 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PaPaPeng wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 14:52:02 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was personally involved (as a student) in Ping-Pong diplomacy
>>>>>>>>>> back in 1972
>>>>>>>>> No doubt you were one of the original astronauts who landed on the
>>>>>>>>> moon too.
>>>>>>>> No but I was the persons who initiated the contact with USTTA
>>>>>>>> president Steenhoven on behalf of UMCP Chancellor Charles Bishop to
>>>>>>>> help arrange the premier venue of the tour, the match at Cole Field
>>>>>>>> house. This was the only large venue inside the Washington beltway
>>>>>>>> (12,000 seats)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "1972: A ping-pong match between the United States and the People's
>>>>>>>> Republic of China is played at Cole, the first sporting event
>>>>>>>> between the two countries."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cole_Field_House
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It was my first date with Dr. Ruth. We met Henry Kissinger
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vince
>>>>>>> The 1972 ping pong diplomacy had a lot of press even if it is only
>>>>>>> Cole Field House archives. Surely you can produce one of those
>>>>>>> articles with your photo or name on it. Or did those make it to the
>>>>>>> Mars Mission already. My initial impression of your claim was that
>>>>>>> you were in the group that went to Beijing from Tokyo. Have you ever
>>>>>>> been to Beijing or to China? If so or if not on what basis do claim
>>>>>>> to speak of expertise on what is happening in China and the
>>>>>>> prevailing
>>>>>>> public mood there?
>>>>>> I do nothing for those who post with false names
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vince Brannigan
>>>>>>
>>>>> What a superb reply with that last sentence!
>>>>>
>>>>> Dean
>>>> I just ignore toilet wall writers who refuse to provide a name
>>>
>>> Actually, you don't start "ignoring" them until you get backed into a
>>> logical corner, or can't force yourself to admit that someone else might
>>> actually be right, and you wrong.
>>>
>>> You're quite predictable, Vince.
>>>
>>>
>> nonsense
>>
>> if they want to present logic or fact based argument no problem
>> when they lose and shift to nasty anonymous insults I
>> ignore them for the toilet wall writers they are
>>
>
>This anonymous coward, "Wiley Post", is yet another who hit my killfile from
>the get go. Anonymous cowards who get sh*tcanned from post 1 include those
>who post from anonymous remailers or those who usurp the names of deceased
>celebrities.

There she goes, folks. Trumpeting her killfile from the rooftops once again.
Isn't she wunnerful. She'll be back, Again... and again... and ...

[JJS[_2_]]

In article >,
wrote:

> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:52:00 -0700, (JJS)
> wrote:
>
> >>Your Afro-American experience is an excellent parallel.
> >
> >I don't see the parallel.
> >
> >> Providing barely earned advantages to all 2.5 million Tibetans in a
> >> population of 1.3 billion Chinese is no problem at all. But these
> >> advantages must still be earned regardless of at how low a level.
> >
> >I know this is where the "whether they want it or not" comes in.
> >
> >Joe
>
>
> I thought my reply was pretty clear on that. The sun will surely
> rise tomorrow morning and the world will revolve as it had always done
> since time began. Whether anyone wants it or not.
>
> Tibet will be developed whether they want it or not.


Agreed. I don't see an alternative for Tibet. It's too bad that the
Tibetans don't have a stronger say in what happens to their country.
Or should I say their part of China?


>
> The parallel with your Afro-American community is that there is no
> lack of effort and no shortage of funding to raise the educational
> standards and employability of their chilkdren. Your best brains and
> your best intentions all had their go at the problem and there isn't
> even a language problem. Yet Afro-Americans, as a community, are
> falling behind further than ever.
>
> One can only do one's best. If for all that effort and it still
> doesn't work one can only keep trying. But feel guilt? Nah.

Oh I don't think anyone thought for a moment that the Chinese leadership
was feeling anything like guilt over their actions in Tibet. ;^)


>Guilt
> over nebulous concepts is an American disease.

Then one point for the home team!

Joe

[eyeball]

On Jun 3, 12:46 pm, PaPaPeng > wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:23:59 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
>
> > wrote:
> >PaPaPeng wrote:
>
> >> "Popular" is the wrong adjective. You don't get to chose your surname
> >> to skew the count.. If you really want to freak out go visit the
> >> universities, the professional centers and the upscale residential
> >> areas. If you are not Chinese you'd stick out like a sore thumb.
>
> >Sure, Just like Jews in New York during the Nazi time
> >We get the best
> >Authoritarian countries tend to export very fine people
>
> >Vince
>
> Hey. Maybe you have a self correcting solution here to the Jewish
> conspriracy. In time the Chinese community will be the elite stratum
> in American Society and displace the Jewish-Neocon cabal. That will
> solve many of America's global problems.
>
> >We get the best
> >Authoritarian countries tend to export very fine people
>
> You're welcome. There are at least ten thousand times their numbers
> in the mainland who are as smart if not smarter. We can spare as many
> as you are willing to take. Employment opportunities are scarce in
> China even for top brains.

I'll remember that when you are the one with the immigration problem...

[AUK Registrar]

In >, PaPaPeng
> wrote:

>On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:44:48 -0700, tankfixer >
>wrote:
>
>>In article >,
says...
>>> On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:32:04 GMT, (Eugene
>>> Griessel) wrote:
>>>
>>> > I believe papapeng is Mandarin for "small penis". Is this
>>> >true?
>>>
>>>
>>> Size matters. 1.3 billion beats your 0.3 billion any day.
>>
>>And here you keep claiming China isn't hostile...
>>
>>Have you been lying ?
>
>If you consider a billion wee peckers hostile what can I say. Do read
>the instructions on the package they came in and decide for yourself.

<reading package>

CAUTION: May cross your borders and try to take over your country if it was
EVER a part of their country.

<yup. That's about it>

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 20:53:26 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
> wrote:

>PaPaPeng wrote:
>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:23:59 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> PaPaPeng wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Popular" is the wrong adjective. You don't get to chose your surname
>>>> to skew the count.. If you really want to freak out go visit the
>>>> universities, the professional centers and the upscale residential
>>>> areas. If you are not Chinese you'd stick out like a sore thumb.
>>> Sure, Just like Jews in New York during the Nazi time
>>> We get the best
>>> Authoritarian countries tend to export very fine people
>>>
>>> Vince
>>
>>
>> Hey. Maybe you have a self correcting solution here to the Jewish
>> conspriracy. In time the Chinese community will be the elite stratum
>> in American Society and displace the Jewish-Neocon cabal. That will
>> solve many of America's global problems.
>>
>>> We get the best
>>> Authoritarian countries tend to export very fine people
>>
>> You're welcome. There are at least ten thousand times their numbers
>> in the mainland who are as smart if not smarter. We can spare as many
>> as you are willing to take. Employment opportunities are scarce in
>> China even for top brains.
>
>I'm not surprised with the thuggish authoritarian government
>
>I will always note how smart they start out but a thuggish authoritarian
>government can kill that off fairly quickly
>
>Vince
>

Jeeze you do have a problem with reading comprehension. Your
mentality has been arrested at the level of a schoolyard bully.

The point made is the numbers and quality of ethnic Chinese in
American society has become significant. They now form the core of
your professional class. In modern society this professional core is
what makes it tick. They therefore determine the character of your
community and country. The Chinese who settled in the US are American
citizens and constitute the ideal citizen group that any community
will be glad to have. The next generation will be so Americanized
that China will probably be quite alien to them. There goes your
thuggish authoritarian government fears though that describes the
current US government quite accurately.

If the rise of the Jewish community post WWII is any indication the
Chinese community will eventually go into those fields where Jews
excelled - law, banking and finance, property and estate investments,
entrepreunership. And even the fine arts. Chinese and other East
Asian classically trained virtusos are what is keeping these western
fine arts alive when recruitment from westerners has declined
precipitiously. The difference is there are far more Chinese than
there will ever be Jews in the US eventually or anywhere else except
in Israel. Numbers always win out in the end.

Currently the US Jewish population is 7 million or 2.5 percent. The
US Chinese population is 3.6 million or 1.2 per cent. Already the
ethnic Chinese component of top US universities exceeds that of the
Jews as well as all other ethnic groups. Read:

Little Asia on the Hill
Jim Wilson/The New York Times
By TIMOTHY EGAN
Published: January 7, 2007
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/education/edlife/07asian.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

So there you are, a possibility that US Chinese may overtake the Jews
in messing up your minds in the not too distant future.

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:34:50 -0700 (PDT), eyeball
> wrote:

>> You're welcome. There are at least ten thousand times their numbers
>> in the mainland who are as smart if not smarter. We can spare as many
>> as you are willing to take. Employment opportunities are scarce in
>> China even for top brains.
>
>I'll remember that when you are the one with the immigration problem...

Too late. I have already been embedded for over 30 years.

[PaPaPeng]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:52:00 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

>In article >,
>wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 08:28:30 -0700, (JJS)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I know is looks like the Chinese have adopted the "white man's burden".
>> >You know bringing civilization to the less fortunate whether they
>> >want it or not e.g. Tibet.
>> >
>> >Joe
>>
>>
>> On the contrary. Tibet is being developed for China's benefit as
>> Tibet's resources and vast space is needed.
>
>True.
>
>>Development will not wait
>> for Tibetans slow to get into the game.
>
>I know this is where the "whether they want it or not" comes in.
>
>>Tibetans are in the best
>> position to benefit from this investment as the rules are already in
>> place to let them have first pick.
>
>Well there's the problem. The large immigration of Chinese to Tibet
>could be considered a threat by the local Tibetan population. They
>might argue that the first pick goes to the Chinese or those Tibetans
>loyal to the Chinese rather than the general population. At least that's
>how it usually works in the rest of the world.

The real problem here is finding enough qualified Tibetans. Those
qualifed will have no problem finding employment. You still need at
least a high school equivalency to work in a white collar job. To a
Han Tibet is a hardship post. But if that's where the jobs are
they'll come, earn what they came to earn and then go east after a few
years. The jobs will always be available for qualified Tibetans.

As for manual jobs the Han immigrants are paid as poorly as Tibetans.
And there is a problem of language to manage a Tibetan work crew. In
any case these are dead end jobs. The only solution is for Tibetans
to acquire employable skills.


>
>
>>But the Tibetans must also have
>> the attitude, aptitude and the ability to take advantage of these
>> opportunities.
>
>I know this is where the "whether they want it or not" comes in.
>
>>To quit with barely a grade 6 education with no
>> (Chinese majority or foreign) language skills dooms one to making a
>> living off equally disadvantaged fellow Tibetans. (Being a monk
>> inures one to life's hardships but is quite useless for making a
>> living.)
>
>I agree but when does it become someone else¹s choice (non-Tibetan)
>that they change the way they live their life? I'm not saying
>that the local population had a better life style before the
>Chinese decided to improve things. I'm just wondering who gets to
>decide what happens in Tibet.

Do read the May National Geographic special issue on China. See the
vast deserts. See the poverty and backwardness in marginal farmlands.
Due to global climate change Tibet is drying up and farming and
herding can no longer sustain a livelihood. The world is changing and
their old style of life has disappeared forever whether they like it
or not. The question then is can they adapt to the new life that has
been forced upon them by nature.

Turn to page 74-75 a double spread showing Tibetan youths and
government housing in the background built to house Tibetans displaced
by climate change. The caption suggests that the Tibetan youths are
visitors. Those Tibetans resettled in these new towns receive
government subsidies enough to get by on. But they are bored out of
their frigging minds because of lack of suitable employment. They are
pastoral people not urbanites. In this sheltered environment Tibetan
culture cannot thrive because it is out of context with their
traditional way of life. By the same context no amount of government
funding or support will keep alive Tibetan culture as a way of life.
Change is not an option. It is a relentless certainty.

Do take a look at the Tibetan youths again and compare them with the
Han in other pages. They look differerent enough that without my
dwelling on it you can see they will have a problem getting hired. I
have deleted the rest of my rant as I have no alternative or
optimistic solutions for Tibetan problems in a fast changing world.
No amount of good intentions or pablum slogans on your part nor on the
Chinese side will solve anything.



>
>>Your Afro-American experience is an excellent parallel.
>
>I don't see the parallel.
>
>> Providing barely earned advantages to all 2.5 million Tibetans in a
>> population of 1.3 billion Chinese is no problem at all. But these
>> advantages must still be earned regardless of at how low a level.
>
>I know this is where the "whether they want it or not" comes in.
>
>Joe

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:03:25 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 03:29:51 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Say what you like sport, I'm repeating what was broadcast on CNN.
>>>>
>>>> cheers....Jeff
>>>
>>>
>> <snippage of rant about news coverage>
>>
>> Listen fool, spout what you like, pictures tell a thousand words.
>>
>>They were holding up a piece of concrete, supposedly reinforced. What the
>>builder had used for reinforcement was a joke.
>>Instead of rebar, it looked like he had used that very light steel-mesh
>>material (approx. 6"x6" square) that we use to support a concrete slab in
>>a
>>garage floor that is laid over 6" of compacted gravel.
>>Instead of using rebar, which you or I wouldn't be able to bend with our
>>bare hands, he used material a four year old could twist out of shape.
>>Don't tell me what I saw fool, I'll tell you.
>>
>> cheers....Jeff
>>
>
> Look you twerp. When a US army squad in Iraq >murders a family there

Listen "Who Flung Poo", we are talking about murderously criminal building
practices in _Communist China_!
Do try to keep on track.

>
> Ergo when a single building disintegrates in a humongous earthquake
> you can point fingers and sacrifice a few goats to satisfy public
> outrage. When more than 300 schools disintegrated the same way you
> are going to prosecute anyone and everyone who had a hand in building
> those schools? You are certainly very naive in the ways things work.
>

Naive me?
Not at all, business as usual, corrupt as usual. it's the Communist Chinese
way.


> I'll tell you one remarkable example how the Chinese system works.
> When DXP came back to power the Cultural Revolution was still alive
> until they arrested the Gang of Four. With the devastation that the
> CR and the GLF (Great Leap Forward) and other Mao inspired disasters
> there was a tremendous amount of damage to be made good. So DXP
> decreed that there were far too many injustices and far too many
> interconnected crimes ever to sort out. Getting China back on track
> was of paramount importance. So there was to be no recriminationsw,
> no boards of inquiries, no investigations into what had gone on
> before. He (DXP) himself was treated very badly. His eldest son (a
> physics undergrad then)was thrown from or had leapt from an upper
> storey and crippled. The son was denied medical attention and is now
> a quadripelgic. If DXP did not seek revenge no one else could and the
> bad blood that would have flowed and poisoned everything never did.
>

Translation: thing's were so bad, corruption was so commonplace and
systemic, there would have no no hierarchy left.

> So it will be with this earthquake. The first order of things is to
> get back the countryside in order and the people housed and gainfully
> employed. Before the end of the year is out the debris will have been
> cleared and reconstruction begun. Premier Wen has declared that
> within three years all the roads, bridges and infrastructures will be
> repaired. They will be finished ahead of schedule. In that three
> years will arise new cities, towns and residential areas as if they
> seemed to have sprouted from the ground overnight.

All we'll see, are the thousands of grave markers, all bearing the same
date.
I sure hope they build them a lot better than they did last time.
I bet the people do too.


>But
> meantime screw your CNN attempts to paint a fumbling and dysfuntional
> picture of Chinese people.

It must really *frost your ass* seeing the truth of your communist regime
being held up for the world's scrutiny.
The Chinese Communist's don't need help from anyone or anything, "to paint a
fumbling and dysfuntional
picture of Chinese people", for the world to observe. They manage perfectly
all by themselves.

If the Chinese people are really lucky, one day they will be able to watch
the likes of CNN and decide for themselves whether or not they find the
reporting to their taste.

That would of course entail a lot more freedom of choice, than is currently
allowed in your *pariah* nation.

cheers....Jeff

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:34:50 -0700 (PDT), eyeball
> > wrote:
>
>>> You're welcome. There are at least ten thousand times their numbers
>>> in the mainland who are as smart if not smarter. We can spare as many
>>> as you are willing to take. Employment opportunities are scarce in
>>> China even for top brains.
>>
>>I'll remember that when you are the one with the immigration problem...
>
> Too late. I have already been embedded for over 30 years.

Wrong, as usual, Ernst Zundel was embedded for over 30 years too!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Z%C3%BCndel

Guess where he is now?

As a Chinese communist shill, you undoubtedly lied on your Canadian
immigration form's, all those years ago.

Consider yourself a "marked man", WhoFlungPoo.

cheers.....Jeff

[PaPaPeng]

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:04:26 GMT, Vince Brannigan
> wrote:

>>
>> So there you are, a possibility that US Chinese may overtake the Jews
>> in messing up your minds in the not too distant future.
>>
>
>Not at all
>
>Chinese people are fine as soon as they learn to think for themselves
>
>The thugs in in power in the PRC are determined to prevent that
>
>Vince

This long thread is evidence that the Chinese are already messing up
your minds from across the Pacific and in your own front yard (1.2%.)
Do the South Asians (Indians), Russians, Europeans, Arabs, anyone else
out there?, pose the same amount of concern about your place in the
global scene? Nope. China has displaced the USSR as your enemy #1.

It is not a status China seeks. This is a status you had to invent to
justify your nation crushing, nation bankrupting expenditures on your
military. Can you use this military for its stated purpose? Highly
unlikely as Chinese foreign policy and military doctrine seek to avoid
just such a confrontation. China can do this without being militarily
weak enough to buckle under a (US) threat over economic competition.
Do you need two ocean carrier battlegroups to invade a third tier
country in the Middle East, Africa or South America? Obviously not.
China gets that honor by default.

Reagan bankrupted the USSR and broke it apart by bluff, a brilliant
cost free maneuver, to make the USSR overspend itself into netherland.
This time round you are conning yourselves into bankruptcy. I won't
go into the details that will fill a book. Just go visit any large
bookstore and you will find shelves full of weighty tomes on the US
national quagmire across many sectors- military, political, economic,
technological, social. Your own pundits do a much better job than I
can ever hope to and they are not under any authoritarian government
gun to do so.

Meanwhile China does what China does. That is to modernize and make
money, build its infrastructures. To lift from poverty her 400
millions still poor peoples, to earn a very modest above $2 a day. To
provide the education and technologies to enable her peoples to be a
first world brainpower. Secure through fair trade and non threatening
diplomacy the key natural resources needed for development. To do the
same to develop markets for Chinese manufactures. Win friends and
influence across the globe.

There's not one peep about the Chinese political system within China.
The Government is genuinely popular and their policies have
practically unanimous support. Watch the Beijing Olympics and see for
yourselves the genuine public mood in China today. It will be the
background information between sporting events I will be on the
lookout for. There will be the Beijing "filtered" broadcasts. With
thousands of foreign journalists there for the occasion, and with a
promise that they will have free access, you can make a real time
comparison on whose version of China is closer to the truth. You can
bet your mama's tits that foreign journalists will do their best to
find chinks (pun intended) in China's armor.

There's not one peep about the Chinese political system from abroad
except from rich white guy nations who are at a loss on how to respond
to China's development juggernaut. To the rest of the developing
world the Chinese system provides a fascinating study on how to
achieve rapid modernization and yet maintain authoritative governance.
They all seek to find which part of the development formula to
modernity and prosperity they can adopt for themselves. Western style
democracy has become an anathema for the chaos and poverty that came
with it. 60 years of post war experience in the former imperial
colonies and economic semi-colonies is proof enough. Read this seminal
paper "The Beijing Consensus, Joshua Cooper Ramo"
http://fpc.org.uk/fsblob/244.pdf to get a good idea of what is
happening to your world.

Since these (China) developments mess up your minds, a state of mind
induced by none other than yourselves, wouldn't you say that we
(China) can fight a more effective battle than you? And China deosn't
even have to move a finger to effect it. You will continue to lose
this fight as long as you maintain archaic patronizing attitudes like

>Chinese people are fine as soon as they learn to think for themselves
>
>The thugs in in power in the PRC are determined to prevent that.

Cheers. Or as we say in Chinese "Kan Pei."
(Kan Pei = Bottoms Up Peng Pei = Cheers (a sip or two) If you mean
Cheers, .... When you drink with the Chinese, they would toast their
glasses lower than ...)

[PaPaPeng]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:00:43 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> wrote:

>
>"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:34:50 -0700 (PDT), eyeball
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>> You're welcome. There are at least ten thousand times their numbers
>>>> in the mainland who are as smart if not smarter. We can spare as many
>>>> as you are willing to take. Employment opportunities are scarce in
>>>> China even for top brains.
>>>
>>>I'll remember that when you are the one with the immigration problem...
>>
>> Too late. I have already been embedded for over 30 years.
>
>Wrong, as usual, Ernst Zundel was embedded for over 30 years too!
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Z%C3%BCndel
>
>Guess where he is now?
>
>As a Chinese communist shill, you undoubtedly lied on your Canadian
>immigration form's, all those years ago.
>
>Consider yourself a "marked man", WhoFlungPoo.
>
> cheers.....Jeff
>

Aha. Zundel lied to get his immigration approved plus he published
and publicized his hatred for an identifiable ethnic group. They got
him on that. Of course having a Canadian Jewish Mafia helps a lot
too.

Me? I am having an excellent time messing you up without even trying.
And shame on you. You don't even know your own laws. Making empty
threats lowers your credibility in polite circles.

[PaPaPeng]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:52:04 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> wrote:

>If the Chinese people are really lucky, one day they will be able to watch
>the likes of CNN and decide for themselves whether or not they find the
>reporting to their taste.


They watch CNN alright. Jack Cafferty found that out the last time he
made a slur and had to apologize. However, to really influence the
mass of oppressed Chinese CNN and other western media will have to
broadcast in Chinese. There's a 1.3 billion x 2 eyeballs there to
catch. Its a worthwhile investment to mess up their minds.

As for the rest of your rant if that's what you want to believe in
good luck to you. It makes an interesting world. Do keep chewing on
it when you eat your meals. Good for your ulcers.

[William Black[_1_]]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...

> There's not one peep about the Chinese political system within China.

Well, there was a few years ago.

I wonder if they're out of jail yet?


> The Government is genuinely popular and their policies have
> practically unanimous support.

So why not have free and fair elections?


Watch the Beijing Olympics and see for
> yourselves the genuine public mood in China today.

We will watch with interest, especially as they've just withdrawn one
'manual of behaviour' that was deeply offensive to disabled athletes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7433398.stm

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[William Black[_1_]]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:52:04 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> > wrote:
>
>>If the Chinese people are really lucky, one day they will be able to watch
>>the likes of CNN and decide for themselves whether or not they find the
>>reporting to their taste.
>
>
> They watch CNN alright. Jack Cafferty found that out the last time he
> made a slur and had to apologize. However, to really influence the
> mass of oppressed Chinese CNN and other western media will have to
> broadcast in Chinese. There's a 1.3 billion x 2 eyeballs there to
> catch. Its a worthwhile investment to mess up their minds.

Looks like they're doing what they want.

And upsetting loads of people.

I see the BBC, in it's usual understated way, is running the Chinese
government shills back at them and making them look bad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7313998.stm

Oh dear, China is playing with the big boys now, and is about to find out
the very nasty truth:

"Big boy's game, big boy's rules"...

The liberal intellectual thugs who run the BBC are about to make mincemeat
of your beloved propaganda apparatus.


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[John Boyle]

La N wrote:
> "Vincent Brannigan" > wrote in message
> news:3H31k.4756$jX.4547@trnddc04...
>> Wiley Post wrote:
>>> In <FfG0k.279$jN1.212@trnddc08>, Vincent Brannigan >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dean A. Markley wrote:
>>>>> Vincent Brannigan wrote:
>>>>>> PaPaPeng wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 18:31:12 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PaPaPeng wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 14:52:02 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was personally involved (as a student) in Ping-Pong diplomacy
>>>>>>>>>> back in 1972
>>>>>>>>> No doubt you were one of the original astronauts who landed on the
>>>>>>>>> moon too.
>>>>>>>> No but I was the persons who initiated the contact with USTTA
>>>>>>>> president Steenhoven on behalf of UMCP Chancellor Charles Bishop to
>>>>>>>> help arrange the premier venue of the tour, the match at Cole Field
>>>>>>>> house. This was the only large venue inside the Washington beltway
>>>>>>>> (12,000 seats)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "1972: A ping-pong match between the United States and the People's
>>>>>>>> Republic of China is played at Cole, the first sporting event
>>>>>>>> between the two countries."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cole_Field_House
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It was my first date with Dr. Ruth. We met Henry Kissinger
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vince
>>>>>>> The 1972 ping pong diplomacy had a lot of press even if it is only
>>>>>>> Cole Field House archives. Surely you can produce one of those
>>>>>>> articles with your photo or name on it. Or did those make it to the
>>>>>>> Mars Mission already. My initial impression of your claim was that
>>>>>>> you were in the group that went to Beijing from Tokyo. Have you ever
>>>>>>> been to Beijing or to China? If so or if not on what basis do claim
>>>>>>> to speak of expertise on what is happening in China and the
>>>>>>> prevailing
>>>>>>> public mood there?
>>>>>> I do nothing for those who post with false names
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vince Brannigan
>>>>>>
>>>>> What a superb reply with that last sentence!
>>>>>
>>>>> Dean
>>>> I just ignore toilet wall writers who refuse to provide a name
>>> Actually, you don't start "ignoring" them until you get backed into a
>>> logical corner, or can't force yourself to admit that someone else might
>>> actually be right, and you wrong.
>>>
>>> You're quite predictable, Vince.
>>>
>>>
>> nonsense
>>
>> if they want to present logic or fact based argument no problem
>> when they lose and shift to nasty anonymous insults I
>> ignore them for the toilet wall writers they are
>>
>
> This anonymous coward, "Wiley Post", is yet another who hit my killfile from
> the get go. Anonymous cowards who get sh*tcanned from post 1 include those
> who post from anonymous remailers or those who usurp the names of deceased
> celebrities.
>
> - nilita
>
>
To ALL: You people are nuts to think another war, at this Time and with
the condition of out military without the draft, makes any sense! We do
NOT have the manpower to handle the alleged war, and without manpower
you can NOT do what is necessary! I am a Retired Army Sergeant with 21
yrs of service and One year in Vietnam, with a Bronze star to boot!

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...

> anonymous cowardly provokers

An apt description of yourself..

--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:46:33 -0700, tankfixer >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Why shouldn't he use his real name ?
> >He posts like a wholly owned subsidiary of the PRC.
>
> PRC = PaPaPeng's + R(?) + C(?)
>
> Go run with it and come up with a catchy mission statement ID.

Sorry I outed you Mr Shill
--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...


> Tibet is being developed for China's benefit as
> Tibet's resources and vast space is needed. Development will not wait
> for Tibetans slow to get into the game.

You spout that like it is some great thing.

--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
> The parallel with your Afro-American community is that there is no
> lack of effort and no shortage of funding to raise the educational
> standards and employability of their chilkdren. Your best brains and
> your best intentions all had their go at the problem and there isn't
> even a language problem. Yet Afro-Americans, as a community, are
> falling behind further than ever.
>
> One can only do one's best. If for all that effort and it still
> doesn't work one can only keep trying. But feel guilt? Nah. Guilt
> over nebulous concepts is an American disease.

You are a remarkable little racist pig arn't you ?

--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[PaPaPeng]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:27:29 +0100, "William Black"
> wrote:

>"Big boy's game, big boy's rules"...

Unfortunately for you the UK is no longer in the Big Boys League. It
is not that influential in EU circles even. India is not big league.
The US, because of its size, will always be in the top league. But
with their political and military establishments in disarray not an
effective one.

[PaPaPeng]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:52:04 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> wrote:

>Listen "Who Flung Poo", we are talking about murderously criminal building
>practices in _Communist China_!
>Do try to keep on track.


Aw quit your carping and dry your crocodile tears. Do something
useful. Go start a defense fund to help those poor Chinese parents
who lost their chil]dren. That will give you a concrete means (pun
intended) to get at those corrupt chicom school criminal contractors
you hate so much. With more than 300 schools destoryed you can hardly
miss finding one to get them corrupt commies on. Do it now and do it
quick and you may even have time to watch the show "Bush 'Plans Iran
Air Strike by August'" in case you don't know that is the track you
really should be on.

[JJS[_2_]]

In article >,
wrote:

> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 20:53:26 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
> > wrote:
>
> >PaPaPeng wrote:
> >> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:23:59 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> PaPaPeng wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "Popular" is the wrong adjective. You don't get to chose your surname
> >>>> to skew the count.. If you really want to freak out go visit the
> >>>> universities, the professional centers and the upscale residential
> >>>> areas. If you are not Chinese you'd stick out like a sore thumb.
> >>> Sure, Just like Jews in New York during the Nazi time
> >>> We get the best
> >>> Authoritarian countries tend to export very fine people
> >>>
> >>> Vince
> >>
> >>
> >> Hey. Maybe you have a self correcting solution here to the Jewish
> >> conspriracy. In time the Chinese community will be the elite stratum
> >> in American Society and displace the Jewish-Neocon cabal. That will
> >> solve many of America's global problems.
> >>
> >>> We get the best
> >>> Authoritarian countries tend to export very fine people
> >>
> >> You're welcome. There are at least ten thousand times their numbers
> >> in the mainland who are as smart if not smarter. We can spare as many
> >> as you are willing to take. Employment opportunities are scarce in
> >> China even for top brains.
> >
> >I'm not surprised with the thuggish authoritarian government
> >
> >I will always note how smart they start out but a thuggish authoritarian
> >government can kill that off fairly quickly
> >
> >Vince
> >
>
> Jeeze you do have a problem with reading comprehension. Your
> mentality has been arrested at the level of a schoolyard bully.
>
> The point made is the numbers and quality of ethnic Chinese in
> American society has become significant. They now form the core of
> your professional class.


Actually no. They are a small but important part of our professional core.


>In modern society this professional core is
> what makes it tick. They therefore determine the character of your
> community and country.


Not quite. Look at it this way. If the 2 million Tibetans were the
professional core of Chinese society would they determine the character
of the whole community of China? I think not. They would be absorbed
into the larger Chinese community as has happened in the past with other
cultures. It¹s the same here.


The Chinese who settled in the US are American
> citizens and constitute the ideal citizen group that any community
> will be glad to have.


They have many fine qualities but ideal is a bit over the top
in describing them.


The next generation will be so Americanized
> that China will probably be quite alien to them.


True. It's that melting pot thing.


>There goes your
> thuggish authoritarian government fears though that describes the
> current US government quite accurately.
>
> If the rise of the Jewish community post WWII is any indication the
> Chinese community will eventually go into those fields where Jews
> excelled - law, banking and finance, property and estate investments,
> entrepreunership. And even the fine arts. Chinese and other East
> Asian classically trained virtusos are what is keeping these western
> fine arts alive when recruitment from westerners has declined
> precipitiously. The difference is there are far more Chinese than
> there will ever be Jews in the US eventually or anywhere else except
> in Israel. Numbers always win out in the end.


No. they will both be swamped by the Latino culture. ;^)

Joe

<SNIP>

[JJS[_2_]]

In article >,
wrote:

> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:52:00 -0700, (JJS)
> wrote:

<SNIP>


> >Well there's the problem. The large immigration of Chinese to Tibet
> >could be considered a threat by the local Tibetan population. They
> >might argue that the first pick goes to the Chinese or those Tibetans
> >loyal to the Chinese rather than the general population. At least that's
> >how it usually works in the rest of the world.
>
> The real problem here is finding enough qualified Tibetans. Those
> qualifed will have no problem finding employment. You still need at
> least a high school equivalency to work in a white collar job. To a
> Han Tibet is a hardship post. But if that's where the jobs are
> they'll come, earn what they came to earn and then go east after a few
> years. The jobs will always be available for qualified Tibetans.
>
> As for manual jobs the Han immigrants are paid as poorly as Tibetans.
> And there is a problem of language to manage a Tibetan work crew.


Hmmm, the Tibetan language being a problem in Tibet is a problem?
I fear that their culture is surely doomed.


>In
> any case these are dead end jobs. The only solution is for Tibetans
> to acquire employable skills.
>


True.


>
> >
> >
> >>But the Tibetans must also have
> >> the attitude, aptitude and the ability to take advantage of these
> >> opportunities.
> >
> >I know this is where the "whether they want it or not" comes in.
> >
> >>To quit with barely a grade 6 education with no
> >> (Chinese majority or foreign) language skills dooms one to making a
> >> living off equally disadvantaged fellow Tibetans. (Being a monk
> >> inures one to life's hardships but is quite useless for making a
> >> living.)
> >
> >I agree but when does it become someone else¹s choice (non-Tibetan)
> >that they change the way they live their life? I'm not saying
> >that the local population had a better life style before the
> >Chinese decided to improve things. I'm just wondering who gets to
> >decide what happens in Tibet.
>
> Do read the May National Geographic special issue on China. See the
> vast deserts. See the poverty and backwardness in marginal farmlands.
> Due to global climate change Tibet is drying up and farming and
> herding can no longer sustain a livelihood. The world is changing and
> their old style of life has disappeared forever whether they like it
> or not. The question then is can they adapt to the new life that has
> been forced upon them by nature.
>


I've never argued that their life isn't changing I've been asking
who gets to and who should decide how it changes. I think we agree
that it isn't the people of Tibet.



> Turn to page 74-75 a double spread showing Tibetan youths and
> government housing in the background built to house Tibetans displaced
> by climate change. The caption suggests that the Tibetan youths are
> visitors. Those Tibetans resettled in these new towns receive
> government subsidies enough to get by on. But they are bored out of
> their frigging minds because of lack of suitable employment. They are
> pastoral people not urbanites. In this sheltered environment Tibetan
> culture cannot thrive because it is out of context with their
> traditional way of life. By the same context no amount of government
> funding or support will keep alive Tibetan culture as a way of life.
> Change is not an option. It is a relentless certainty.
>
> Do take a look at the Tibetan youths again and compare them with the
> Han in other pages. They look differerent enough that without my
> dwelling on it you can see they will have a problem getting hired.


Is racism a problem in China?


>I
> have deleted the rest of my rant as I have no alternative or
> optimistic solutions for Tibetan problems in a fast changing world.
> No amount of good intentions or pablum slogans on your part nor on the
> Chinese side will solve anything.

Don't get me wrong they are living in a time of change that will
most likely turn their world upside down. I'm merely pointing
out that there isn't only one way for this change to take place. What
I see happening is a government that isn't concerned on what is best
for Tibet. But I don't see a practical solution to the situation. So
let's agree that the Tibetans are going to get screwed.


Joe

[PaPaPeng]

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:58:48 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

>In article >,
>wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:52:00 -0700, (JJS)
>> wrote:
>
><SNIP>
>
>
>> >Well there's the problem. The large immigration of Chinese to Tibet
>> >could be considered a threat by the local Tibetan population. They
>> >might argue that the first pick goes to the Chinese or those Tibetans
>> >loyal to the Chinese rather than the general population. At least that's
>> >how it usually works in the rest of the world.
>>
>> The real problem here is finding enough qualified Tibetans. Those
>> qualifed will have no problem finding employment. You still need at
>> least a high school equivalency to work in a white collar job. To a
>> Han Tibet is a hardship post. But if that's where the jobs are
>> they'll come, earn what they came to earn and then go east after a few
>> years. The jobs will always be available for qualified Tibetans.
>>
>> As for manual jobs the Han immigrants are paid as poorly as Tibetans.
>> And there is a problem of language to manage a Tibetan work crew.
>
>
>Hmmm, the Tibetan language being a problem in Tibet is a problem?
>I fear that their culture is surely doomed.

Han and non Tibetans rarely if ever learn Tibetan. There is no money
in it. Outside the Buddhist tracts there is no great Tibetan
literature. Buddhism you can learn from other mainstream languages.
Tibetan culture has meaning only to Tibetans and to "good only for two
days" tourists. It is brutal and it is Darwinian. Tibetan culture as
a way of life is doomed. It will survive only as tourist curiosities
and in the occassional lost valley too remote for modern
infrastructure to reach.
>
>
>>In
>> any case these are dead end jobs. The only solution is for Tibetans
>> to acquire employable skills.
>>
>
>
>True.
>
>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >>But the Tibetans must also have
>> >> the attitude, aptitude and the ability to take advantage of these
>> >> opportunities.
>> >
>> >I know this is where the "whether they want it or not" comes in.
>> >
>> >>To quit with barely a grade 6 education with no
>> >> (Chinese majority or foreign) language skills dooms one to making a
>> >> living off equally disadvantaged fellow Tibetans. (Being a monk
>> >> inures one to life's hardships but is quite useless for making a
>> >> living.)
>> >
>> >I agree but when does it become someone else¹s choice (non-Tibetan)
>> >that they change the way they live their life? I'm not saying
>> >that the local population had a better life style before the
>> >Chinese decided to improve things. I'm just wondering who gets to
>> >decide what happens in Tibet.

Beijing of course. How many times do you have to be reminded of that.
If you have a viable alternative do let the world know. You will have
Tibetans and Beijing whispering your name in gratitude.

>>
>> Do read the May National Geographic special issue on China. See the
>> vast deserts. See the poverty and backwardness in marginal farmlands.
>> Due to global climate change Tibet is drying up and farming and
>> herding can no longer sustain a livelihood. The world is changing and
>> their old style of life has disappeared forever whether they like it
>> or not. The question then is can they adapt to the new life that has
>> been forced upon them by nature.
>>
>
>
>I've never argued that their life isn't changing I've been asking
>who gets to and who should decide how it changes. I think we agree
>that it isn't the people of Tibet.
>
Once more with feeling. Beijing of course. How many times do you
have to be reminded of that. If you have a viable alternative do let
the world know. You will have Tibetans and Beijing whispering your
name in gratitude.

Now had Beijing left Tibet alone to muddle along with Tibetans left to
their own devices there would be a real outcry that Beijing was
practising genocide. Life would be very harsh for Tibetans and life
expectancy in the low 40s with live births in appalling low numbers.
So Beijing muddles along too but on a higher economic plane until some
solution presents itself. At least the Tibetans aren't dying like
flies.
>
>
>> Turn to page 74-75 a double spread showing Tibetan youths and
>> government housing in the background built to house Tibetans displaced
>> by climate change. The caption suggests that the Tibetan youths are
>> visitors. Those Tibetans resettled in these new towns receive
>> government subsidies enough to get by on. But they are bored out of
>> their frigging minds because of lack of suitable employment. They are
>> pastoral people not urbanites. In this sheltered environment Tibetan
>> culture cannot thrive because it is out of context with their
>> traditional way of life. By the same context no amount of government
>> funding or support will keep alive Tibetan culture as a way of life.
>> Change is not an option. It is a relentless certainty.
>>
>> Do take a look at the Tibetan youths again and compare them with the
>> Han in other pages. They look differerent enough that without my
>> dwelling on it you can see they will have a problem getting hired.
>
>
>Is racism a problem in China?

NO. In the whole of China's long history no minority people had ever
posed a threat to a Han's livelihood. The minorities were always
poorer off for any Han to develop feelings of jealousy or insecurity.
Their numbers (the minority groups) were never large enough to impact
on any aspect of Chinese society. Fear and loathing for a non Han
therefore never arose. But tribal prejudice is alive and well between
Han provincials and dialect groups. But that's another story all
together.
>
>
>>I
>> have deleted the rest of my rant as I have no alternative or
>> optimistic solutions for Tibetan problems in a fast changing world.
>> No amount of good intentions or pablum slogans on your part nor on the
>> Chinese side will solve anything.
>
>Don't get me wrong they are living in a time of change that will
>most likely turn their world upside down. I'm merely pointing
>out that there isn't only one way for this change to take place. What
>I see happening is a government that isn't concerned on what is best
>for Tibet. But I don't see a practical solution to the situation. So
>let's agree that the Tibetans are going to get screwed.
>
>
>Joe

The New Town Settlements encapsulate all that is unhappy and
intractable with the Tibetan problem. Its pretty obvious that
building larger houses and giving them a bigger stipend will solve
nothing. It maye make the situation worse by removing all incentive
for them to make it in the modern world. Tibetans are not going to
get screwed. They are already screwed. They are screwed by pinning
their hopes on independence (a non starter), on religion and on the
return of the lama system. Their salvation is to develop an
economically viable way of life in modern society not regress to blind
hopes. A full belly is the means to fulfill many hopes.

This is also the reason why the Dalai Lama does not want to return to
Tibet. There's nothing he can do for he has neither the funds nor the
organization nor the solutions economic and cultural to meet their
needs. While he stays outside and does his thing he gets treated like
a head of state and receives very generous funding from well meaning
donors and from governments wishing to destabilize China. Thus every
time China agrees to talks, whenever these talks seem like moving
forward, the DL will say something undiplomatic to sabotage them.
That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and
it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are
being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it.

[Wiley Post]

In >, PaPaPeng
> wrote:

>On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:58:48 -0700, (JJS)
>wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>>wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:52:00 -0700, (JJS)
>>> wrote:
>>> >Well there's the problem. The large immigration of Chinese to Tibet
>>> >could be considered a threat by the local Tibetan population. They
>>> >might argue that the first pick goes to the Chinese or those Tibetans
>>> >loyal to the Chinese rather than the general population. At least that's
>>> >how it usually works in the rest of the world.
>>>
>>> The real problem here is finding enough qualified Tibetans. Those
>>> qualifed will have no problem finding employment. You still need at
>>> least a high school equivalency to work in a white collar job. To a
>>> Han Tibet is a hardship post. But if that's where the jobs are
>>> they'll come, earn what they came to earn and then go east after a few
>>> years. The jobs will always be available for qualified Tibetans.
>>>
>>> As for manual jobs the Han immigrants are paid as poorly as Tibetans.
>>> And there is a problem of language to manage a Tibetan work crew.
>>
>>
>>Hmmm, the Tibetan language being a problem in Tibet is a problem?
>>I fear that their culture is surely doomed.
>
>Han and non Tibetans rarely if ever learn Tibetan.

Their loss. Learning another language is never a waste.

>There is no money in it.

One does not learn another language merely because there is "money in it".

>Outside the Buddhist tracts there is no great Tibetan
>literature. Buddhism you can learn from other mainstream languages.

Buddhism isn't rooted in Tibet so your point is meaningless.

>Tibetan culture has meaning only to Tibetans and to "good only for two
>days" tourists. It is brutal and it is Darwinian.

You are entitled to your opinion. I seriously doubt many, if any, Tibetans
will agree with your assessment.

>Tibetan culture as a way of life is doomed. It will survive only as tourist curiosities
>and in the occassional lost valley too remote for modern
>infrastructure to reach.

And the Chinese government is doing everything it can to fulfill your dream.

>>> >I agree but when does it become someone else¹s choice (non-Tibetan)
>>> >that they change the way they live their life? I'm not saying
>>> >that the local population had a better life style before the
>>> >Chinese decided to improve things. I'm just wondering who gets to
>>> >decide what happens in Tibet.
>
>Beijing of course. How many times do you have to be reminded of that.
>If you have a viable alternative do let the world know. You will have
>Tibetans and Beijing whispering your name in gratitude.

How about leaving and letting the Tibetans do it.

>Now had Beijing left Tibet alone to muddle along with Tibetans left to
>their own devices there would be a real outcry that Beijing was
>practising genocide.

You have a crystal ball? Tarot cards? Informative tea leaves? Or is it just
a need to justify an unwarranted takeover of a completely peaceful country
that posed absolutely no threat to anyone?

> Life would be very harsh for Tibetans and life
>expectancy in the low 40s with live births in appalling low numbers.

Now THAT's the PRC party line we've all come to know. You serve it up quite
well.

>So Beijing muddles along too but on a higher economic plane until some
>solution presents itself. At least the Tibetans aren't dying like
>flies.

Flies are free.

[JJS[_2_]]

In article >,
wrote:

> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:58:48 -0700, (JJS)
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> >wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:52:00 -0700, (JJS)
> >> wrote:
> >
> ><SNIP>
> >
> >
> >> >Well there's the problem. The large immigration of Chinese to Tibet
> >> >could be considered a threat by the local Tibetan population. They
> >> >might argue that the first pick goes to the Chinese or those Tibetans
> >> >loyal to the Chinese rather than the general population. At least that's
> >> >how it usually works in the rest of the world.
> >>
> >> The real problem here is finding enough qualified Tibetans. Those
> >> qualifed will have no problem finding employment. You still need at
> >> least a high school equivalency to work in a white collar job. To a
> >> Han Tibet is a hardship post. But if that's where the jobs are
> >> they'll come, earn what they came to earn and then go east after a few
> >> years. The jobs will always be available for qualified Tibetans.
> >>
> >> As for manual jobs the Han immigrants are paid as poorly as Tibetans.
> >> And there is a problem of language to manage a Tibetan work crew.
> >
> >
> >Hmmm, the Tibetan language being a problem in Tibet is a problem?
> >I fear that their culture is surely doomed.
>
> Han and non Tibetans rarely if ever learn Tibetan. There is no money
> in it. Outside the Buddhist tracts there is no great Tibetan
> literature. Buddhism you can learn from other mainstream languages.
> Tibetan culture has meaning only to Tibetans and to "good only for two
> days" tourists. It is brutal and it is Darwinian. Tibetan culture as
> a way of life is doomed. It will survive only as tourist curiosities
> and in the occassional lost valley too remote for modern
> infrastructure to reach.
> >
> >
> >>In
> >> any case these are dead end jobs. The only solution is for Tibetans
> >> to acquire employable skills.
> >>
> >
> >
> >True.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>But the Tibetans must also have
> >> >> the attitude, aptitude and the ability to take advantage of these
> >> >> opportunities.
> >> >
> >> >I know this is where the "whether they want it or not" comes in.
> >> >
> >> >>To quit with barely a grade 6 education with no
> >> >> (Chinese majority or foreign) language skills dooms one to making a
> >> >> living off equally disadvantaged fellow Tibetans. (Being a monk
> >> >> inures one to life's hardships but is quite useless for making a
> >> >> living.)
> >> >
> >> >I agree but when does it become someone else¹s choice (non-Tibetan)
> >> >that they change the way they live their life? I'm not saying
> >> >that the local population had a better life style before the
> >> >Chinese decided to improve things. I'm just wondering who gets to
> >> >decide what happens in Tibet.
>
> Beijing of course. How many times do you have to be reminded of that.
> If you have a viable alternative do let the world know. You will have
> Tibetans and Beijing whispering your name in gratitude.


Depends on how you define ³viable alternative². With a government in
China as paranoid as it is about it¹s control of power I don¹t see a
viable alternative so the Tibetans are fated to be screwed by the
Chinese.


>
> >>
> >> Do read the May National Geographic special issue on China. See the
> >> vast deserts. See the poverty and backwardness in marginal farmlands.
> >> Due to global climate change Tibet is drying up and farming and
> >> herding can no longer sustain a livelihood. The world is changing and
> >> their old style of life has disappeared forever whether they like it
> >> or not. The question then is can they adapt to the new life that has
> >> been forced upon them by nature.
> >>
> >
> >
> >I've never argued that their life isn't changing I've been asking
> >who gets to and who should decide how it changes. I think we agree
> >that it isn't the people of Tibet.
> >
> Once more with feeling. Beijing of course. How many times do you
> have to be reminded of that. If you have a viable alternative do let
> the world know. You will have Tibetans and Beijing whispering your
> name in gratitude.


Once more but without as much feeling. Depends on how you define ³viable
alternative². With a government in China as paranoid as it is about
it¹s control of power I don¹t see a viable alternative so the
Tibetans are going to be screwed by the Chinese.


>
> Now had Beijing left Tibet alone to muddle along with Tibetans left to
> their own devices there would be a real outcry that Beijing was
> practising genocide. Life would be very harsh for Tibetans and life
> expectancy in the low 40s with live births in appalling low numbers.


So we are back to the "white man's burden" excuse again. Look
we both know that it doesn't matter what the life style of Tibet
is. This is all about power so why keep bringing up how good
this is for Tibet when is has nothing to do with helping Tibet.
Well I guess you could say that the Chinese are 'helping' themselves
to the resources of Tibet.


> So Beijing muddles along too but on a higher economic plane until some
> solution presents itself. At least the Tibetans aren't dying like
> flies.



We don¹t know what would happen in Tibet if the Chinese left them alone.
The world is changing and they possibly on their own would change with
it. Slower but change none the less.



> >
> >
> >> Turn to page 74-75 a double spread showing Tibetan youths and
> >> government housing in the background built to house Tibetans displaced
> >> by climate change. The caption suggests that the Tibetan youths are
> >> visitors. Those Tibetans resettled in these new towns receive
> >> government subsidies enough to get by on. But they are bored out of
> >> their frigging minds because of lack of suitable employment. They are
> >> pastoral people not urbanites. In this sheltered environment Tibetan
> >> culture cannot thrive because it is out of context with their
> >> traditional way of life. By the same context no amount of government
> >> funding or support will keep alive Tibetan culture as a way of life.
> >> Change is not an option. It is a relentless certainty.
> >>
> >> Do take a look at the Tibetan youths again and compare them with the
> >> Han in other pages. They look differerent enough that without my
> >> dwelling on it you can see they will have a problem getting hired.
> >
> >
> >Is racism a problem in China?
>
> NO. In the whole of China's long history no minority people had ever
> posed a threat to a Han's livelihood. The minorities were always
> poorer off for any Han to develop feelings of jealousy or insecurity.
> Their numbers (the minority groups) were never large enough to impact
> on any aspect of Chinese society. Fear and loathing for a non Han
> therefore never arose. But tribal prejudice is alive and well between
> Han provincials and dialect groups. But that's another story all
> together.
> >


Thanks for the info.


> >
> >>I
> >> have deleted the rest of my rant as I have no alternative or
> >> optimistic solutions for Tibetan problems in a fast changing world.
> >> No amount of good intentions or pablum slogans on your part nor on the
> >> Chinese side will solve anything.
> >
> >Don't get me wrong they are living in a time of change that will
> >most likely turn their world upside down. I'm merely pointing
> >out that there isn't only one way for this change to take place. What
> >I see happening is a government that isn't concerned on what is best
> >for Tibet. But I don't see a practical solution to the situation. So
> >let's agree that the Tibetans are going to get screwed.
> >
> >
> >Joe
>
> The New Town Settlements encapsulate all that is unhappy and
> intractable with the Tibetan problem. Its pretty obvious that
> building larger houses and giving them a bigger stipend will solve
> nothing. It maye make the situation worse by removing all incentive
> for them to make it in the modern world. Tibetans are not going to
> get screwed. They are already screwed. They are screwed by pinning
> their hopes on independence


The nerve of them having the gall to want independence.


>(a non starter), on religion


Well I have to admit that I'm not into the religion thing.


>and on the
> return of the lama system. Their salvation is to develop an
> economically viable way of life in modern society not regress to blind
> hopes.

Oh I agree.

>A full belly is the means to fulfill many hopes.

But not all hopes.

>
> This is also the reason why the Dalai Lama does not want to return to
> Tibet.


Okay you're starting to lose me here.


>There's nothing he can do for he has neither the funds nor the
> organization nor the solutions economic and cultural to meet their
> needs.

Why not let him try?


>While he stays outside and does his thing he gets treated like
> a head of state and receives very generous funding from well meaning
> donors and from governments wishing to destabilize China.


Only countries that wish to destabilize China? Sounds a bit
paranoid to me.


>Thus every
> time China agrees to talks, whenever these talks seem like moving
> forward, the DL will say something undiplomatic to sabotage them.


I'm not sure what they consider "undiplomatic". He has stated that
He doesn't want independence from China but more local autonomy.
I know, I know that¹s wishful thinking on his part. Besides he has
a secret agenda bankrolled by countries that want to destabilize
China.



> That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and
> it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are
> being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it.


Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what
my position is concerning the Dalai Lama?

Joe

[Billzz]

"JJS" > wrote in message
. ..
> In article >,
>
> wrote:

-stuff snipped-

>> That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and
>> it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are
>> being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it.
>
>
> Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what
> my position is concerning the Dalai Lama?
>
> Joe

I was just passing by, and have no horse in this race, but I do have an
interesting story. Years ago I was in the far east, and met a learned
person, (probably in an airport bar, so take everything I next say with a
dose of salt) and the subject got around to Tibet. He said that most people
do not know that Tibet was once a feudal serfdom, and had some practices
that were very close to slavery. The selection of the next Dalai Lama was
done by having the monks (lamas?) scour the countryside for the best and the
brightest amongst young males and then, with the agreement of the parents,
they would be taken back to Lhasa? and trained and examined, and the best
and the brightest would be the next Dalai Lama in waiting, and the others
were on standby. But the thing is that none of them went back. They were
essentially indentured servants. I don't remember everything, but he stated
that this is probably why there is no real revolution amongst the Tibetan
people, because they (maybe?) do not want the Dalai Lama system back. Of
course the Chinese government could be pounding them into the ground, but
with today's communication, and travelers, one thinks that one should hear
something.

As an aside, we have a friend who supports that brand of Buddhism, and so I
did meet with some saffron-robed Buddhist (priests?) who were from the Dalai
Lama's sect. They did a sand mandela (which is something to see) and sang
songs, and we saw slides of their monastery (which is now in India, and
looked very Spartan, indeed) and I thought that they were probably good
people, but they were definitely of a single culture - once in , never out.
Maybe it is the same as a monk in the Catholic church, but I don't know. I
know that my wife spent a hundred dollars for some blankets. Maybe someone
will be helped.

Anyway, I do not know if his story is true, or not, but it was interesting.
I don't care, one way or the other.

[Dean A. Markley]

John Boyle wrote:
Snipped to save electrons...
>>
> To ALL: You people are nuts to think another war, at this Time and with
> the condition of out military without the draft, makes any sense! We do
> NOT have the manpower to handle the alleged war, and without manpower
> you can NOT do what is necessary! I am a Retired Army Sergeant with 21
> yrs of service and One year in Vietnam, with a Bronze star to boot!

With all due respect, most wars do not make sense.

Dean

[g lof2]

On Jun 2, 4:30*am, Vince Brannigan > wrote:
> g lof2 wrote:
> > On Jun 1, 8:02 am, "Jeffrey Hamilton" > wrote:
> >> "PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >>> On Sat, 31 May 2008 09:20:54 -0700, tankfixer
> >>> > wrote:
> >>>> In article >,
> >>>> says...
> >>>>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 21:50:00 -0700, tankfixer
> >>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>> YOu need to read the BS coming out of China now as they try to spin the
> >>>>>> damage in the earthquake areas
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>> If only Dubya could claim the same degree of disrepute after Katrina
> >>>>> he'd be grinning from ear to ear.
> >>>> Glad you can admit the Chinese people are unhappy with how their
> >>>> government is acting.
> >>>> That is a good first step.
> >>> You really need to take remedial reading lessons.
> >> You need to take reality lessons.
> >> They [CNN] reported on and showed *parents* who had lost their only child in
> >> the recent earthquakes. These people spoke of their children being told not
> >> to *jump* in the classrooms, by their teachers. Evidently the teachers felt
> >> the schools were of sub-standard construction and were not capable of
> >> sustaining the forces of excited children jumping up and down. The gist of
> >> the story was *the schools* fell down when other buildings remained
> >> standing.
> >> Corruption rules!
> > *Hide quoted text -
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Sorry to disappoint you Jeff, but the shear number of build, not just
> > school, but apartment blocks and factories that colapsed * points to
> > incompents, not Corruption as the problem.
>
> it proves no such thing
>
> * As I told Vince, the
>
> > promble with codes and standards are that people assume that the
> > people creating them know what they are doing, and that build to those
> > standard is safe enough. But codes are rarely customize to specify
> > areas until after a disaster points out the shortcoming. (Have you
> > ever notices that the strictes firecode in the US is in Chicago.)
> > Therefore until the quake hit, the people build the school may have
> > truly thought they were building safe buildings.
>
> you can easily have corruption at the "code making" level
>
> > Now I am not saying they might have been cases of corruption in
> > China's construction industries, but I doubt it was so great to cause
> > the amount of destruct seen hera.
>
> It can if the corruption was at the code level.
>
> Both kinds of corruption are common
>

Maybe, but never underestimate the power of human stupidity, far more
people have die due to honest mistakes, than deliberated misfeasance.
I take a crook that skates close too the edge over the honest man who
will drive you over out of ignorances.

> I just wrote an ethics letter on the private funding of code officials
> participation in the US code making process
>
> We will have a whole conference on codes and some of these issues in
> Edinburgh this fall

True corruption, or will it inculde 'conflicts of interest'? One real
issue we had decussed when I was doing my Masters (Yes I have a MsME)
was when does avoiding 'conflict of interest' begin to hurt other. One
example was one of my profressor was a expert in solar archieture, and
his research was back by some companies interested in windows and
insulation. His expertises would be invaluable to revising the
building codes about insulation requirment, but they never asked his
because of his sponcers.

> - Show quoted text -

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:52:04 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> > wrote:
>
>>Listen "Who Flung Poo", we are talking about murderously criminal building
>>practices in _Communist China_!
>>Do try to keep on track.
>
>
> Aw quit your carping and dry your crocodile tears. Do something
> useful.

Gee *OneHungLow*, pointing out reality to you is carping?
Fascinating.
I am doing something useful.

cheers....Jeff

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:52:04 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> > wrote:
>
>>If the Chinese people are really lucky, one day they will be able to watch
>>the likes of CNN and decide for themselves whether or not they find the
>>reporting to their taste.
>
>
> They watch CNN alright. Jack Cafferty found that out the last time he
> made a slur and had to apologize. However, to really influence the
> mass of oppressed Chinese CNN and other western media will have to
> broadcast in Chinese. There's a 1.3 billion x 2 eyeballs there to
> catch. Its a worthwhile investment to mess up their minds.
>

I understand perfectly *WhoFlungDung*, freedom of the press is your greatest
fear.
It will eventually erode the communist's hold on the Chinese people.
It can't happen soon enough.

cheers....Jeff

[eatfastnoodle]

On Jun 6, 11:24*pm, "Jeffrey Hamilton" > wrote:
> "PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:52:04 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> > > wrote:
>
> >>If the Chinese people are really lucky, one day they will be able to watch
> >>the likes of CNN and decide for themselves whether or not they find the
> >>reporting to their taste.
>
> > They watch CNN alright. *Jack Cafferty found that out the last time he
> > made a slur and had to apologize. *However, to really influence the
> > mass of oppressed Chinese CNN and other western media will have to
> > broadcast in Chinese. *There's a 1.3 billion x 2 eyeballs there to
> > catch. *Its a worthwhile investment to mess up their minds.
>
> I understand perfectly *WhoFlungDung*, freedom of the press is your greatest
> fear.
> It will eventually erode the communist's hold on the Chinese people.
> It can't happen soon enough.
>
> *cheers....Jeff

You are too ideological, as long as the Communists do a reasonable
good job, its hold on power, Chinese people, whatever, will be just
fine. You may not know that it's much more likely for a Chinese to be
pro-government and anti-West after he/she is exposed to freedom of
expression.

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:00:43 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:34:50 -0700 (PDT), eyeball
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>> You're welcome. There are at least ten thousand times their numbers
>>>>> in the mainland who are as smart if not smarter. We can spare as many
>>>>> as you are willing to take. Employment opportunities are scarce in
>>>>> China even for top brains.
>>>>
>>>>I'll remember that when you are the one with the immigration problem...
>>>
>>> Too late. I have already been embedded for over 30 years.
>>
>>Wrong, as usual, Ernst Zundel was embedded for over 30 years too!
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Z%C3%BCndel
>>
>>Guess where he is now?
>>
>>As a Chinese communist shill, you undoubtedly lied on your Canadian
>>immigration form's, all those years ago.
>>
>>Consider yourself a "marked man", WhoFlungPoo.
>>
>> cheers.....Jeff
>>
>
> Aha. Zundel lied to get his immigration approved plus he published
> and publicized his hatred for an identifiable ethnic group. They got
> him on that. Of course having a Canadian Jewish Mafia helps a lot
> too.

Yes it does, but it still took way too long to deport the Nazi *******.

> Me? I am having an excellent time messing you up without even trying.

What ever gave you the impression _you_are messing with me?

> And shame on you. You don't even know your own laws.


Don't I indeed?

>Making empty
> threats lowers your credibility in polite circles.

I made no threats, I merely made an observation.

In the 1970's Canada took in 50,000 + *boat people*.
These people were of course fleeing the communist's in Vietnam.
The greater proportion of them were ethnic Chinese.
I figure you came to Canada during this process, you *OneHungLow*, in all
likely hood were *planted*,
possibly in a refugee camp.

I'd bet good money _your_communist leanings, were never acknowledged to
Canadian immigration authorities.

Are you a candidate for deportation ?
Who knows.
Are you as stupid in real-life as you are on USENET ?

A bit of *fear factor* there, *WhoFlungPoo* ?


cheers....Jeff

[PaPaPeng]

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:27:31 -0700, "Billzz"
> wrote:

>
>"JJS" > wrote in message
. ..
>> In article >,
>>
>> wrote:
>
>-stuff snipped-
>
>>> That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and
>>> it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are
>>> being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it.
>>
>>
>> Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what
>> my position is concerning the Dalai Lama?
>>
>> Joe
>
>I was just passing by, and have no horse in this race, but I do have an
>interesting story. Years ago I was in the far east, and met a learned
>person, (probably in an airport bar, so take everything I next say with a
>dose of salt) and the subject got around to Tibet. He said that most people
>do not know that Tibet was once a feudal serfdom, and had some practices
>that were very close to slavery. The selection of the next Dalai Lama was
>done by having the monks (lamas?) scour the countryside for the best and the
>brightest amongst young males and then, with the agreement of the parents,
>they would be taken back to Lhasa? and trained and examined, and the best
>and the brightest would be the next Dalai Lama in waiting, and the others
>were on standby. But the thing is that none of them went back. They were
>essentially indentured servants. I don't remember everything, but he stated
>that this is probably why there is no real revolution amongst the Tibetan
>people, because they (maybe?) do not want the Dalai Lama system back. Of
>course the Chinese government could be pounding them into the ground, but
>with today's communication, and travelers, one thinks that one should hear
>something.
>
>As an aside, we have a friend who supports that brand of Buddhism, and so I
>did meet with some saffron-robed Buddhist (priests?) who were from the Dalai
>Lama's sect. They did a sand mandela (which is something to see) and sang
>songs, and we saw slides of their monastery (which is now in India, and
>looked very Spartan, indeed) and I thought that they were probably good
>people, but they were definitely of a single culture - once in , never out.
>Maybe it is the same as a monk in the Catholic church, but I don't know. I
>know that my wife spent a hundred dollars for some blankets. Maybe someone
>will be helped.
>
>Anyway, I do not know if his story is true, or not, but it was interesting.
>I don't care, one way or the other.
>

I guess by now you would have noticed that no one really cares about
the Tibetans unless they can be used to bash China.

Here's a report that isn't so flattering either.

Stop religious persecution
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly
practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden.

This centuries-old practice involves making requests to the Wisdom
Deity Dorje Shugden to support our spiritual development - helping us
to develop pure inner qualities such as love, compassion, equanimity,
wisdom, and patience.

Our goal in making these prayers is to ask for the best conditions to
follow the Buddhist path to full enlightenment, so that we can help
all living beings find lasting inner peace and happiness.

Abandoned by the Dalai Lama
For reasons that have their roots in the arcane world of Tibetan
politics, some years ago the Dalai Lama of Tibet chose to abandon the
practice and outlaw it among the Tibetan community, claiming that this
Deity was 'evil' and that engaging in the practice caused harm to his
own lifespan and to Tibetan independence.

On the orders of the Dalai Lama, the ban was and continues to be
enforced by the Tibetan Government in Exile and all other Tibetan
Exile associations such as the Tibetan Youth Congress and the Tibetan
Women's Association:

" Monks and nuns are forbidden to do the practice and are
unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if
they do not comply
" Thousands of Shugden practitioners among the Tibetan lay
people are being forced to abandon the practice or lose the support of
their government and face orchestrated public humiliation and
intimidation
" People who refuse to renounce the practice are losing their
jobs, their children are being expelled from schools, and their travel
papers, which require prior authorization from the Tibetan Government
in Exile, are not being endorsed
" Statues have been smashed, temples destroyed, books burned,
practitioner's houses attacked, and even death threats issued in an
orgy of persecution that resembles a medieval witch hunt

Persecution intensifies
This persecution has become progressively more virulent, and in
January 2008, the Dalai Lama issued a new proclamation requiring all
Tibetans to sign a declaration forsaking the practice forever and
promising not to associate in any way - spiritually, financially,
socially or materially - with anyone who does not sign.

Despite the atmosphere of fear and intimidation and the threat to
their own safety and that of their families, thousands of monks and
nuns decided that enough was enough and refused to sign.

They were summarily expelled from their monasteries and nunneries,
forbidden to associate with other Tibetans, even to eat with or shop
from them, and left to fend for themselves without any support.

Untouchables
Although the Tibetans are mere guests in India, the Dalai Lama is
repaying the kindness of the Indian people by violating their
constitution in creating a new group of untouchables. And these from
among his own people!

Having deprived Tibetans in exile of the right to become Indian
citizens and insisted that they all remain subject to his dictatorial
rule, he has effectively condemned those who refuse to compromise the
integrity of their spiritual practice to a double refugee status.
They are refugees from Tibet - stateless in India - and now they are
refugees from their own communities - ostracized and humiliated on the
fringes of Tibetan society.

Inexpressible pain and suffering
And why? Simply because they refuse to abandon a pure and harmless
spiritual practice they have received from their Spiritual Guides.
This tradition goes back centuries. Many of the great Masters of
Tibetan Buddhism received this practice from their Spiritual Guide and
passed it onto their own students - right down to the great Lama,
Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, who passed it to his disciple, the Dalai
Lama!

In abandoning the practice, the Dalai Lama has broken a commitment to
his Spiritual Guide - almost unthinkable in Buddhism among ordinary
practitioners, never mind from a spiritual leader!

It is almost impossible to explain the inner pain and suffering a
Buddhist would experience if they were forced to abandon a heart
practice given to them by their Spiritual Guide. And yet thousands and
thousands of Tibetans have been forced to do just this by the Dalai
Lama!

Stolen teachings
The Dalai Lama has even gone on record as saying his own Spiritual
Guide and his predecessors through the centuries were wrong!
What a preposterous claim!

Is this the example we are being asked to follow?

In a stunning and flagrant act of almost unbelievable hypocrisy, on
the one hand he condemns his own Spiritual Guides and works to destroy
the very heart of the pure tradition they have preserved through the
centuries, while on the other he struts the world's stage giving
teachings from that very tradition!

Because the pure Dharma he received from his Teacher Kyabje Trijang
Rinpoche is so powerful, everyone who hears those teachings naturally
admires the sentiments they express.

But do they know that he has stolen those teachings? Do they question
whether these noble sentiments are actually present in the mind of the
speaker?

Duplicity
But the hypocrisy and duplicity do not stop there.
Aware of the international public horror at the recent atrocities,
which clearly stem from the single handed actions of the Dalai Lama,
the Tibetan Prime Minister and other Officials of the Tibetan
Government in Exile have started a campaign to distance the Dalai Lama
from these actions and their resulting inhumane victimization of a
section of the Tibetan community.

Threat to religious freedom worldwide
Like a virulent cancer, this discrimination has spread from the
Tibetan community to the world at large.

Because the Dalai Lama generally enjoys uncritical celebrity status in
almost every country, people simply accept what he says without
question

As a result, various western Buddhist centres with a connection to the
Dalai Lama are now signing declarations promising not to engage in the
Shugden practice or to allow into their centre anyone who does. They
are also insulting those practitioners and centres in the west who do
engage in this practice.

Such is the spell cast by the Dalai Lama that these people have
suspended their critical faculties to embrace what is nothing more
than a piece of medieval superstition.
Incredibly, Shugden practitioners in the West are now wrongly being
condemned as non-Buddhists!

Why We Are Protesting
Over the years Shugden practitioners in both the East and the West
have sent many letters and petitions to the Dalai Lama requesting him
to completely stop these actions of discrimination, but, giving
invalid reasons, he has refused to accept our requests.

We are left with no option but to protest publicly in the hope of
drawing the world's attention to this intolerable situation.
In doing so we hope that some people at least will see the hypocrisy
in the Dalai Lama parading as a champion of religious freedom while
conducting religious persecution of his own, and join with us in
demanding that this iniquitous discrimination that is causing so much
pain and suffering stop immediately.

All we ask is to be able to say our prayers and follow the advice of
our Spiritual Guides without fear of persecution, ostracism, and
abuse.

Why is it so hard for a Buddhist leader to agree to this?

[PaPaPeng]

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:08:31 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

>So we are back to the "white man's burden" excuse again. Look
>we both know that it doesn't matter what the life style of Tibet
>is. This is all about power so why keep bringing up how good
>this is for Tibet when is has nothing to do with helping Tibet.
>Well I guess you could say that the Chinese are 'helping' themselves
>to the resources of Tibet.


Geezee how many times did you have to repeat a grade before you got
your 3Rs right?

Beijing already has all the power. She doesn't need to prove anything
to anyone least of all to people like you. Beijing has a National
Policy for Minorities of which Tibetans form a group that receives the
most attention. Belonging to a Chinese minority group brings useful
privileges such as being allowed to have more children and these
children have preferential admission to institutions of higher
learning, the passport to the good life. As such quite a number of
identifiable community groups seek Minority status.
http://www.everyculture.com/Russia-Eurasia-China/Introduction-to-China-Minority-Policies.html

I made no claim that Beijing's Tibet policy is good for the Tibetans.
What Beijing does is pragmatism. Its a damn lot chaper and easier to
pay displaced Tibetans to get by than it is to try to force feed them
ill thought out "Tibet" solutions. Your experience in the west had
seen many multi-million dollar welfare type attempts go to waste. All
those failures do is to reinforce the target group's sense of failure
and the futility of their lives. The smarter ones develop a penchant
to game the system for whatever dollars they can get before another
do-good project goes south.

Your responses so far is to patronize the Tibetans by saying that all
their problems can be solved if only Beijing cared. In the same
breath you contradict yourself "if only Beijing would leave them alone
to work out something at their own pace and time" Tibetans will
achieve nirvana. You really have some personal issues to resolve
first.

That New Town resettlement for Tibetans displaced by climate change
actually tells many stories. There are no laws that keep them there.
There are no restrictions as to what work they can engage in. There
are no laws to say they cannot go back to their old style of life (or
a new style if they chose to do so) anywhere in Tibet or elsewhere in
China. Yet they stay and they remain bored out of their frigging
minds. The incontrovertible fact then is there is nowhere in the
whole vast country of China that they can they recreate their former
lives. The world has changed and its not the Government's fault.
Therefore all this talk about preserving their culture won't bring
back their former lives. The best and perhaps only way they can
practice it is in the form of festivals. For their everyday lives
they must adapt to realities, and that is to find some form of work
they can do. What this form will take is something neither you nor I
have a clue on since neither of us have been to Tibet let alone what
their hopes and capabilities are. You have neither the intellectual
nor the moral authority to speak for them.








================================

Chinese Policy on Minorities
http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Minorities/China-min-policy.html
General

These fifty-six are extremely diverse. Some of the minorities,
including the Hui and the Zhuang, are very similar to the Han; others
are very different, for instance, the Turkic peoples of the west such
as the Uygurs or Kazakhs, or the Iranian Tajiks. The Minority
nationalities occupy about 60 per cent of China's territory,
including, above all, the vast western areas.

Policy

Chinese policy officially opposes forced assimilation and allows
autonomy to the minority nationalities, so that they can retain their
own characteristics. Under this policy, the government has set up
numerous autonomous areas throughout China. The policy's real effect,
however, can best be described as integration.

Policy on Secession

Both policy and reality are fiercely opposed to outright secession,
which the government has suppressed brutally on several occasions.
Such occasions occurred in the years of 1959, 1987, and 1989. Most of
the minorities have succeeded in integrating reasonably well with the
Han, but independence or secessionist and wishes have remained strong
among a few, particularly the Tibetans. Ethnic dissent among some
nationalities could easily develop as an issue in the coming years.

Census Situation

In the 1953 census 41 minority nationalities were specified. In the
1964 census, there were 183 nationalities registered, among which the
government recognized only 54. Of the remaining 129 nationalities, 74
were considered to be part of the officially recognized 54, 23 were
classified as "other nationalities" and the remaining 32 were
classified as "indeterminate." The numbers of population has some
suspect due to the re-registration of significant numbers of Han
people as members of minority nationalities, an action which brought
with it personal benefits. Also some did so as it relates to the
substantial (though not total) exemption of members of minority
nationalities from the family planning policy of "one family one
child".

[William Black[_1_]]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...

Belonging to a Chinese minority group brings useful
> privileges such as being allowed to have more children

An interesting statement.

Someone asked me the other day why India's population is still climbing at a
hell of a rate when the Chinese population is pretty stable, and why can't
the Indian government impose 'child quotas' in the same way they do in
China.

I explained that any Indian government that tried would be out on their
arses at the next election, that India is a democracy and that people there
take that democracy very seriously indeed.

I wish people would take politics as seriously here.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[William Black[_1_]]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...

> Here's a report that isn't so flattering either.
>
> Stop religious persecution
> http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

This one stinks.

UK contact is a mobile phone number, email address is a free Microsoft one,
no bricks and mortar locations, no names of people you can call up and talk
to, not even somewhere you can send money to...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"eatfastnoodle" > wrote in message
...
On Jun 6, 11:24 pm, "Jeffrey Hamilton" > wrote:
> "PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:52:04 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> > > wrote:
>
> >>If the Chinese people are really lucky, one day they will be able to
> >>watch
> >>the likes of CNN and decide for themselves whether or not they find the
> >>reporting to their taste.
>
> > They watch CNN alright. Jack Cafferty found that out the last time he
> > made a slur and had to apologize. However, to really influence the
> > mass of oppressed Chinese CNN and other western media will have to
> > broadcast in Chinese. There's a 1.3 billion x 2 eyeballs there to
> > catch. Its a worthwhile investment to mess up their minds.
>
> I understand perfectly *WhoFlungDung*, freedom of the press is your
> greatest
> fear.
> It will eventually erode the communist's hold on the Chinese people.
> It can't happen soon enough.
>
> cheers....Jeff

>You are too ideological,

Am I indeed ?

>as long as the Communists do a reasonable
>good job,

Collapsing schools send a horrible message to the masses.
Define *reasonable job*.

>its hold on power, Chinese people, whatever, will be >just fine.

Without *freedom* how would we ever know ?

>You may not know that it's much more likely for a >Chinese to be
>pro-government and anti-West after >he/she is exposed to freedom of
>expression.

Quite possible and if you are so sure of the Chinese people's preference for
the one-party Communist system, then it should be relatively easy to
determine if democracy is more to their taste .

Should it not ?


cheers....Jeff

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...

> Monks and nuns are forbidden to do the practice and are
> unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if
> they do not comply


WTF ?

Unconstitutionally ?

Sounds like someone is confused.

--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
tankfixer > wrote:

> In article >,
> says...
>
> > Monks and nuns are forbidden to do the practice and are
> > unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if
> > they do not comply
>
>
> WTF ?
>
> Unconstitutionally ?
>
> Sounds like someone is confused.

Maybe he mean unconditionally?

[Jeffrey Hamilton]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:27:31 -0700, "Billzz"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"JJS" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> In article >,
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>-stuff snipped-
>>
>>>> That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and
>>>> it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are
>>>> being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what
>>> my position is concerning the Dalai Lama?
>>>
>>> Joe
>>
>>I was just passing by, and have no horse in this race, but I do have an
>>interesting story. Years ago I was in the far east, and met a learned
>>person, (probably in an airport bar, so take everything I next say with a
>>dose of salt) and the subject got around to Tibet. He said that most
>>people
>>do not know that Tibet was once a feudal serfdom, and had some practices
>>that were very close to slavery. The selection of the next Dalai Lama was
>>done by having the monks (lamas?) scour the countryside for the best and
>>the
>>brightest amongst young males and then, with the agreement of the parents,
>>they would be taken back to Lhasa? and trained and examined, and the best
>>and the brightest would be the next Dalai Lama in waiting, and the others
>>were on standby. But the thing is that none of them went back. They were
>>essentially indentured servants. I don't remember everything, but he
>>stated
>>that this is probably why there is no real revolution amongst the Tibetan
>>people, because they (maybe?) do not want the Dalai Lama system back. Of
>>course the Chinese government could be pounding them into the ground, but
>>with today's communication, and travelers, one thinks that one should hear
>>something.
>>
>>As an aside, we have a friend who supports that brand of Buddhism, and so
>>I
>>did meet with some saffron-robed Buddhist (priests?) who were from the
>>Dalai
>>Lama's sect. They did a sand mandela (which is something to see) and
>>sang
>>songs, and we saw slides of their monastery (which is now in India, and
>>looked very Spartan, indeed) and I thought that they were probably good
>>people, but they were definitely of a single culture - once in , never
>>out.
>>Maybe it is the same as a monk in the Catholic church, but I don't know.
>>I
>>know that my wife spent a hundred dollars for some blankets. Maybe
>>someone
>>will be helped.
>>
>>Anyway, I do not know if his story is true, or not, but it was
>>interesting.
>>I don't care, one way or the other.
>>
>
> I guess by now you would have noticed that no one really cares about
> the Tibetans unless they can be used to bash China.
>
> Here's a report that isn't so flattering either.
>
> Stop religious persecution
> http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/
>
> Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly
> practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden.
>

Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a little
googling.

It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.

It also appears this *sect* has been banned in the past, both the 5th and
13th DL's banned it.
Apparently the prime argument is *it* is _too_ spiritual, thusly negating
the Buddist side overly. Or words to that effect

ps: how are those Galun Fong folk doing ?
.....oh yeah and how is that Chinese Communist appointee to the Roman
Catholic Church of China as it's new Bishop, making out ?

cheers....Jeff

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
> In article >,
> tankfixer > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > says...
> >
> > > Monks and nuns are forbidden to do the practice and are
> > > unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if
> > > they do not comply
> >
> >
> > WTF ?
> >
> > Unconstitutionally ?
> >
> > Sounds like someone is confused.
>
> Maybe he mean unconditionally?

Who knows, he probably doesn't


--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

[PaPaPeng]

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:19:57 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> wrote:

>> Stop religious persecution
>> http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/
>>
>> Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly
>> practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden.
>>
>
>Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a little
>googling.
>
>It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
>Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.
>

Neither have I heard of the Shugdens before this article. The commies
don't play this kind of game - sponsor religious factions. First of
all Beijing wouldn't know how to manipulate religious kooks. Secondly
such schemes will explode in any manipulator's face. Thirdly, the DL
is not worth spending time or money on. The DL's power to influence
China is strictly a figment of his Western sponsor's imagination.

The DL certainly has no illusions. Beijing's talks with his
representatives are handled at a pretty low administrative level. In
the half century, or specifically the last 30 years when the DL
switched tactics to claim that he no longer seeks independence, only
the spiritual and cultural wellbeing of Tibetans, the DL will always
derail the the talks by making Politically Incorrect (PC) comments
like claiming that he represents 6 1/2 million Tibetans (it is 2 1/2
million)over the the territories where there are Tibetan communities.
Thus the DL is claiming an empire that spreads into adjacent Chinese
provinces that were never part of Tibet. This nuance will be missed
by Western supporters most of whom have trouble even finding Tibet on
the map. And the DL has a pretty good armory of just such PC stuff to
pick from to play his game.

I picked a Tibet website at random http://www.tibet.com/. I haven't
read it in detail and neither will you. But do scan the contents
under a few random titles anyway. They are practically all political
claims. Now had the DL really wanted to return to Tibet the common
sense thing to do would be to keep quiet on politics until the
opportunity for a personal face to face with the Chinese President or
some Politburo Member is secured first. This will be tacit
recognition of his equal status at the highest political level. China
isn't that dumb to fall for that kind of trick but these are the
negotiating positions DL should be aiming for. An alternative
maneuver would be to trick the Chinese into letting him visit Tibet
itself. In the 30 years the DL has learned to play his game with
exquisite finesse - not to ever personally get anywhere near the
negotiation table and blame the Chinese for it. Pass around the
collection plate please. The DL is going to make another tour to
gullible rich white countries.


>It also appears this *sect* has been banned in the past, both the 5th and
>13th DL's banned it.
>Apparently the prime argument is *it* is _too_ spiritual, thusly negating
>the Buddist side overly. Or words to that effect

Well this Shugden sect is in England where the DL has no jurisdiction,
and in Nepal the Nepalese get to make the rules who can and cannot do.
The DL's goons have no business policing anything. What about
religious freedom you and the DL claim to defend to your last dollar?
Didn't I see a shaven headed white woman convert talking to our
Guardian reporter? What's she to the DL as a religious threat that
her type must be suppressed viciously?

If the ban goes back to the 5th and 13th DLs then this is amazing new
evidence that China's suzerainty over Tibet goes back before the 5th
DL as certainly that relationship could not have started with the 5th.
[i]
>
>ps: how are those Galun Fong folk doing ?
> .....oh yeah and how is that Chinese Communist appointee to the Roman
>Catholic Church of China as it's new Bishop, making out ?


Quite well thank you. Do send them a letter to get their first hand
account of life in China.

American and a number of rich white country church groups used to be
all worked up about China's persecution of FLG practitioners. They
fought for their exit from China and sponsored their resettlement in
their church community. They even provided resettlement support
(housing, money) and transition assistance (jobs, interpreters,
navigating the bureaucracy, etc.) until they wised up to the fact they
had been had by scheme for mature single Chinese women with little
career prospects in China to get into the US (Australia and Canada),
the short cut way complete with a red carpet welcome.

For a time between the 80s into the 90s there were other creative
schemes besides the FLG to get into the rich white countries.
Political dissent (still a good one but very hard to
establish),anti-communism and love for democracy always worked for a
time, human rights, anti-one child policy, forced abortions, religious
persecution and a few more I can't recall at the moment. Those too
impatient or not clever enough to cook up a con took to rusty ship way
across the Pacific. US public sentiment forced the US government to
grant instant refugees status to those faux refugees from Chinese
persecution. They all heve the same well rehersed sob story if the
media reports are anything to go by. But even dumb Americans cannot
remain dumb forever. Mid ocean interception by USN units, isolation
in Guam, and of course stateless limbo, put a stop to that. 9-11
helped.

These living breathing examples of persecuted Chinese whose epic
struggles against heroic odds to make it out of oppressive China to
the West have been around for 30 years now. Tens of housands had
escaped from prison China and found refuge in rich white countries.
Surely by now one would have expected heart rendering Puliter Prize
stories to have been published, to have articulate spokesmen and women
who could give voice to their (masses of persecuted Chinese) common
experiences. What about those heroes of Tiananmen Square who made it
to the West?

Given that the 80s to 90s was the peak you are a kind of behind the
times in the smarts index. You know what Jeff? You are such a nice
guy so concerned about the welfare of the oppressed. There's
something you can do after all. Sponsor a Tibetan from Tibet and
educate him or her. That person then becomes a productive member able
to function in a modern society. That person can help his or her
fellow Tibetans better than you will ever hope to do. Go for it.
>
> cheers....Jeff
>
Double cheers to you too.
for mature single Chinese women with little career prospects in China
to get into the US (Australia and Canada), the short cut way complete
with a red carpet welcome.

For a time between the 80s into the 90s there were other creative
schemes besides the FLG to get into the rich white countries.
Political dissent (still a good one but very hard to
establish),anti-communism and love for democracy always worked for a
time, human rights, anti-one child policy, forced abortions, religious
persecution and a few more I can't recall at the moment. Those too
impatient or not clever enough to cook up a con took to rusty ship way
across the Pacific. US public sentiment forced the US government to
grant instant refugees status to those faux refugees from Chinese
persecution. They all heve the same well rehersed sob story if the
media reports are anything to go by. But even dumb Americans cannot
remain dumb forever. Mid ocean interception by USN units, isolation
in Guam, and of course stateless limbo, put a stop to that. 9-11
helped.

These living breathing examples of persecuted Chinese whose epic
struggles against heroic odds to make it out of oppressive China to
the West have been around for 30 years now. Tens of housands had
escaped from prison China and found refuge in rich white countries.
Surely by now one would have expected heart rendering Puliter Prize
stories to have been published, to have articulate spokesmen and women
who could give voice to their (masses of persecuted Chinese) common
experiences. What about those heroes of Tiananmen Square who made it
to the West?

Given that the 80s to 90s was the peak you are a kind of behind the
times in the smarts index. You know what Jeff? You are such a nice
guy so concerned about the welfare of the oppressed. There's
something you can do after all. Sponsor a Tibetan from Tibet and
educate him or her. That person then becomes a productive member able
to function in a modern society. That person can help his or her
fellow Tibetans better than you will ever hope to do. Go for it.
>
> cheers....Jeff
>
Double cheers to you too.

[PaPaPeng]

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:37:06 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> wrote:

>> Me? I am having an excellent time messing you up without even trying.
>
>What ever gave you the impression _you_are messing with me?


Jeff buddy. I got your attention didn't I? I also made you use your
noggin to think up of something to get back at me. And you will have
to keep trying until you come up with something until that something
hits a target. I don't know about you but coming up with that
"something" sounds kinda like pretty hard work for a low wattage fella
like you. That's what "messing you up" is. Psst. The PRC couldn't
possibly pay me enough for doing this.

[PaPaPeng]

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:19:57 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> wrote:

>Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a little
>googling.
>
>It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
>Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.


I expect your google turned up this story too?
===========================================

A quiet, middle-class café in Westminster, in the political heart of
London, is the last place you would expect to hear someone badmouthing
the Dalai Lama. When that someone is a Buddhist nun, dressed in
trademark maroon robes and with shorn hair, it seems even more
peculiar. 'The Dalai Lama is a hypocrite and an oppressor', says
Kelsang Pema over a glass of water with ice (what else?), as she
fishes from her rucksack 'stacks of evidence' to show me why the Dalai
Lama 'cannot be trusted'. A well-to-do blonde-haired woman in a power
suit shoots us strange looks from the adjacent table. Slating the
Dalai Lama, especially on a crisp, sunny Monday morning as he is due
to arrive in Britain for an official visit, is not the done thing in
polite circles in London.
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/5170/

Kelsang Pema - birth name: Helen Gradwell, born and brought up in
Carlisle, England - is a leading member of the Western Shugden
Society, a group of Buddhists who worship the 'wisdom deity' Dorje
Shugden. Buddhists, especially in Tibet, have been saying the Dorje
Shugden prayer for more than 350 years. Pema tells me 'the prayer
becomes your life, your breath'. Buddhists call on Dorje Shugden to
'help us develop pure qualities', she says, 'including love,
compassion and patience'. There's only one problem: the Dalai Lama,
head of the Tibetan government-in-exile in northern India and
considered by many Buddhists to be a figurehead of their faith,
effectively outlawed the worship of Dorje Shugden in 1996 and
overnight transformed Shugden-following Buddhists into heretics and
untouchables.
In March 1996, the Dalai Lama decreed that the worship of Dorje
Shugden was 'evil'. In what is believed to have been part of an
internal power struggle in his fiefdom-in-exile in Dharamsala,
northern India, the Dalai Lama ordered all worshippers of Dorje
Shugden to leave his temple on 21 March 1996. A week later, on 30
March 1996, the Assembly of Tibetan People's Deputies (the parliament
in exile) passed a resolution banning the worship of Dorje Shugden by
Tibetan government employees, and the Private Office of His Holiness
the Dalai Lama issued a formal decree for everyone to stop practising
the Dorje Shugden prayer. The New Internationalist reported that the
Lama's office wrote to every monastery in northern India and Tibet
demanding that they 'ensure total implementation of this decree by
each and everyone… If there is anyone who continues to worship [Dorje
Shugden], make a list of their names, house name, birth place… Keep
the original and send us a copy of the list.' (1)
'After the Dalai Lama's decree, anyone who continued to follow Dorje
Shugden got it in the neck', Pema says. By 1998, two years after the
Dalai Lama described Dorje Shugden as 'evil' and instructed
monasteries to collect the names of those disobedient Buddhists who
continued worshipping it, an Indian human rights lawyer, PK Dey, had
collected 300 statements from Tibetans in exile in India who had been
either threatened or attacked for failing to comply with the Dalai
Lama's orders. 'Those worshipping Shugden are experiencing tremendous
harassment', said Dey. 'This is not in any particular part of the
country but everywhere there are Tibetans.' (2) In December 1996, one
72-year-old woman, Sonam Bhuti, whose family had worshipped Dorje
Shugden for generations, reported to the Office of the Notary in Delhi
(a civil law institution) that Tibetan officials had ransacked her and
others' homes, 'forcibly taking out the idols and paintings [of Dorje
Shugden]' and 'burning' and 'breaking' them (3).
The Dalai Lama's officials sought to expel Dorje Shugden worshippers
from positions of power and responsibility in both northern India and
Tibet. On 18 April 1996, the Tibetan Department of Health wrote to
doctors and threatened to sack any who continued worshipping the
deity: 'In case there is anyone who doesn't abide by the addresses of
His Holiness to give up Shugden worship… such persons should submit
their resignation.' (4) On 19 May 1998, the Tibetan Department of
Religion and Culture advised welfare and settlement officers of the
conditions under which Tibetan monks and nuns could leave Tibet or
northern India to travel to other parts of the world. Condition no.3
required 'attestation from their monastery that neither the host [nor
the] invitee is a devotee of Dhogyal [a derogatory name for Dorje
Shugden]' (5). In 1998, the New Internationalist reported that there
was little point in Dorje Shugden worshippers protesting against their
maltreatment - one group of worshippers was told by Tibetan officials
that 'concepts like democracy and freedom of religion are empty when
it comes to the wellbeing of the Dalai Lama' (6).
Into the 2000s, the Dalai Lama has continued to harry the remaining
Shugden followers. The German newspaper Suddeutsche Zeitung reported
recently that 'in Tibet, many practise Shugden only "discreetly",
since their practice has been rejected by the Dalai Lama… as evil'
(7). In January this year, the Dalia Lama held a referendum among
Tibetan monks to decide whether it is acceptable to worship Dorje
Shugden. Yet Pema says it wasn't a referendum 'in any democratic
sense'. Instead, monks had to choose a red stick or a yellow stick
from a basket, publicly and in front of their superiors; they picked
the yellow stick if they opposed the worship of Dorje Shugden and the
red stick if they supported the right of people to worship the deity.
Perhaps not surprisingly, given the Dalai Lama's decrees against the
worship of Dorje Shugden and the public, archaic nature of the
referendum, the yellow sticks won (8). 'In Britain and America, the
Dalai Lama is a religious hero. But for many he is a religious
dictator', says Pema.
Some denounce the Dorje Shugden followers as mouthpieces for China.
Pema denies it. 'Anyone who criticises the Dalai Lama is written off
as a Chinese puppet', she says. 'It's just another way of shutting
down debate. People in the West look upon Tibet as this ideal place,
but Tibetans find it hard to have serious debates or to stand up to
the Dalai Lama. It's almost medieval.' Others have made a similar
point about the way the Dalai Lama's unquestionable status as high
representative of the Tibetan people and all things Buddhist stifles
the development of Tibetan public life. In her book The Tibetan
Independent Movement: Political, Religious and Gandhian Perspectives,
Jane Ardley argued that in terms of the development of internal
political life in Tibet and Dharamsala, '[It] is apparent that it is
the Dalai Lama's role as ultimate spiritual authority that is holding
back the political process of democratisation. The assumption that he
occupies the correct moral ground from a spiritual perspective means
that any challenge to his political authority may be interpreted as
anti-religious.' (9)

Others claim that the 'Dorje Shugden clique' is a cult. They do indeed
have cultish qualities, devoting their life and love to an archaic
Buddhist deity. But then many Buddhist and other religious groups
could be described as 'cultish'. The most striking thing about the
Dorje Shugden story is the Western media's lack of interest in it.
Pema has had meetings with British MPs - yet while some 'were
interested', she says 'they knew that criticising the Dalai Lama would
damage their reputations'. She has held press conferences 'but they
are usually poorly attended'. The media do, however, turn up to the
Western Shugden Society's anti-Dalai Lama protests - such as the one
that will take place at the Royal Albert Hall on Thursday this week -
but usually only so they can publish stories about 'mad Buddhists
attacking the Dalai Lama', she says.
The state of denial in the West about some of the Dalai Lama's alleged
power-tripping, or at least the unquestioning attitude towards the
Dalai Lama and everything that he does, highlights the role that he
plays for many Western celebs, commentators and politicians today:
he's a cartoon 'good guy', giggling, pure and righteous, who
apparently should be unconditionally applauded for standing up to the
'Evil Chinese'. All of the Dalai Lama's bad points - his origins in
the stifling medievalism of 1930s Tibet; his archaic practices; his
disregard for 'concepts like democracy and freedom of religion'; his
backing from the CIA in its Cold War with the Chinese - are simply
ignored, as His Holiness is invited to guest-edit French Vogue, attend
charity auctions with Sharon 'Look at My Vagina' Stone, and rub
shoulders with Richard Gere. Pema shows me the Independent on Sunday,
published the day before we met, which has a feature about the Dalai
Lama 'charming the West'. There are around 12 photos showing him
meeting celebrites and other do-gooders. Yet in two of the photos, it
isn't the Dalai Lama at all; it's a different Lama. Maybe these
Tibetans all look the same to British picture editors.
'He's just a photograph and a symbol to many people in the West', says
Pema. 'But the reality is very different.'
Brendan O'Neill is editor of spiked. Visit his website here.

[eatfastnoodle]

On Jun 7, 1:49*am, "Jeffrey Hamilton" > wrote:
> "eatfastnoodle" > wrote in message

>
> > cheers....Jeff
> >You are too ideological,
>
> Am I indeed ?

Yes, since you look at this problem solely through the perspective of
a westerner. You are talking about Chinese, billions of average zhangs
or wangs living and working in China their whole lives, not the kind
of Chinese you usually met in Canada or the US (even they don't tell
you what they really think, trust me)

> >as long as the Communists do a reasonable
> >good job,
>
> Collapsing schools send a horrible message to the masses.
> Define *reasonable job*.

Not really a big deal, again, don't just read news on New York Time.
Talk to Chinese, average Chinese. I personally feel jobs done by
propaganda department of Communist Party this time isn't as tacky as
before, still, it's way way way over the top. Nevertheless, if you
talk to real CHINESE, you will know Chinese government's response to
the earthquake won them big praise and greatly increased their
popularity.


> >its hold on power, Chinese people, whatever, will be >just fine.
>
> Without *freedom* how would we ever know ?

Well, you first need to learn to accept not all people think "freedom"
is the most important thing. Plus, as far as I know, most Chinese
believe they have ample freedom already. (personal freedom, not
political freedom to be sure, but most people simply don't give a damn
about which party is in power)


> >You may not know that it's much more likely for a >Chinese to be
> >pro-government and anti-West after >he/she is exposed to freedom of
> >expression.
>
> Quite possible and if you are so sure of the Chinese people's preference for
> the one-party Communist system, then it should be relatively easy to
> determine if democracy is *more to their taste .
>
> Should it not ?
>
> *cheers....Jeff

They don't prefer Communist System, they just don't give a damn what
the system is as long as they make good money and they marry hot
girls. Is it that hard to understand?
Sure, if Democracy could give them more money and better lives, I'm
sure they will choose Democracy in a heartbeat. But beside Democracies
in Western Europe and North America (most of these countries because
rich and powerful when they weren't exactly the best example of
freedom and democracy), there aren't many success stories for
Democracy, on the other hand, there are plenty of screw-ups, right?
The much promoted (by US media at least, I don't know about what
Canadian media says)Indian economic miracle is seen as a joke by
Chinese, especially by those who have traveled to India. If you had
gone to the two countries, you would know comparing to an average
Chinese city, India's best and most beautiful city is a dirty dump.
If you want to promote democracy, at the very least, you should give
your audience a success story, Chinese people so far haven't seen a
success story.

BTW, there is also a "our *******" factor. In the mind of Chinese
people, Democracy may or may not be good, but the people who simply
can not shut up about how China should adopt democracy most definitely
have ulterior motives. Western Democracy preachers, if they really
want to promote Democracy in China, the best they could do is to shut
the hell up and just let Chinese history run its own course. They are
like Rev. Jeremiah Wright, the more they talk, the more damage they
will do to their cause.

[William Black[_1_]]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:19:57 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> > wrote:
>
>>> Stop religious persecution
>>> http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/
>>>
>>> Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly
>>> practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden.
>>>
>>
>>Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a
>>little
>>googling.
>>
>>It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
>>Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.
>>
>
> Neither have I heard of the Shugdens before this article. The commies
> don't play this kind of game - sponsor religious factions. First of
> all Beijing wouldn't know how to manipulate religious kooks. Secondly
> such schemes will explode in any manipulator's face.

Well yes.

They don't know how to do it.

It does seem to be busy blowing up in their faces.

This one is so transparently dodgy it's frightening.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[William Black[_1_]]

"PaPaPeng" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:19:57 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
> > wrote:
>
>>Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a
>>little
>>googling.
>>
>>It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
>>Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.
>
>
> I expect your google turned up this story too?
> ===========================================
>
> A quiet, middle-class café in Westminster, in the political heart of
> London, is the last place you would expect to hear someone badmouthing
> the Dalai Lama.

It's all sounding like a disinformation campaign.

I notice nobody from the real press has picked up the 'Spiked' story.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[JJS[_2_]]

In article >,
wrote:

> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:08:31 -0700, (JJS)
> wrote:
>
> >So we are back to the "white man's burden" excuse again. Look
> >we both know that it doesn't matter what the life style of Tibet
> >is. This is all about power so why keep bringing up how good
> >this is for Tibet when is has nothing to do with helping Tibet.
> >Well I guess you could say that the Chinese are 'helping' themselves
> >to the resources of Tibet.
>
>
> Geezee how many times did you have to repeat a grade before you got
> your 3Rs right?


Take a deep breath and calm down. You¹re beginning to act childish.


>
> Beijing already has all the power.


Which I have agreed is correct several times. Why repeat what we
have agreed to? Do I need to type it in capitals for you to
understand?


>She doesn't need to prove anything
> to anyone least of all to people like you.


Where did I say they had to prove anything to me?
You¹re becoming irrational.


>Beijing has a National
> Policy for Minorities of which Tibetans form a group that receives the
> most attention.


Lucky for Tibet or should that be unlucky?


>Belonging to a Chinese minority group brings useful
> privileges such as being allowed to have more children and these
> children have preferential admission to institutions of higher
> learning, the passport to the good life. As such quite a number of
> identifiable community groups seek Minority status.


You do realize don¹t you that power over a group is maintained not
only with force but with privileges? This is pretty basic when
one group is trying to maintain control over another.


>
http://www.everyculture.com/Russia-Eurasia-China/Introduction-to-China-Minor
ity-Policies.html
>
> I made no claim that Beijing's Tibet policy is good for the Tibetans.


You say this so why keep bringing up how good it is for them?

"being allowed to have more children and these
children have preferential admission to institutions of higher
learning, the passport to the good life'"

To put it politely you¹re being inconsistent.


> What Beijing does is pragmatism. Its a damn lot chaper and easier to
> pay displaced Tibetans to get by than it is to try to force feed them
> ill thought out "Tibet" solutions. Your experience in the west had
> seen many multi-million dollar welfare type attempts go to waste. All
> those failures do is to reinforce the target group's sense of failure
> and the futility of their lives. The smarter ones develop a penchant
> to game the system for whatever dollars they can get before another
> do-good project goes south.


It may surprise you but I agree.


>
> Your responses so far is to patronize the Tibetans by saying that all
> their problems can be solved if only Beijing cared.


Sigh. No I merely asked if more local control of their lives would work
out better for Tibet. You have a knack for distorting what I write.


In the same
> breath you contradict yourself "if only Beijing would leave them alone
> to work out something at their own pace and time" Tibetans will
> achieve nirvana.


I didn¹t write or insinuate that Tibet would reach ³nirvana². I asked if
it was possible for them to develop with less Chinese intervention than
we see today. You seem to have a low opinion of the people in Tibet.
Why it that?


You really have some personal issues to resolve
> first.


Oh the irony!!! 8^D


>
> That New Town resettlement for Tibetans displaced by climate change
> actually tells many stories. There are no laws that keep them there.
> There are no restrictions as to what work they can engage in. There
> are no laws to say they cannot go back to their old style of life (or
> a new style if they chose to do so) anywhere in Tibet or elsewhere in
> China.


You don't need laws when you completely dominate another group
of people. There are different ways control them. You can move
large numbers of Han into Tibet and change the demographics to
the point that the locals realize that they need to play the game
by the new rules.


>Yet they stay and they remain bored out of their frigging
> minds. The incontrovertible fact then is there is nowhere in the
> whole vast country of China that they can they recreate their former
> lives. The world has changed and its not the Government's fault.


Pay attention. I haven¹t claimed that it is the "Government¹s fault".
I¹ve been asking about how the Chinese government is handling the
situation and why they have selected this approach to the problem.


> Therefore all this talk about preserving their culture won't bring
> back their former lives. The best and perhaps only way they can
> practice it is in the form of festivals. For their everyday lives
> they must adapt to realities, and that is to find some form of work
> they can do.


And not for the first time I agree but this isn't what we
are really talking about is it?


>What this form will take is something neither you nor I
> have a clue on since neither of us have been to Tibet let alone what
> their hopes and capabilities are.


We agree again.


>You have neither the intellectual
> nor the moral authority to speak for them.


Since I haven¹t claimed to speak for them I don¹t see the sense in this
statement. Your post may hold the record for the most Straw Man Arguements
contained in a single post.

Joe


<SNIP>

[JJS[_2_]]

In article >, "Billzz"
> wrote:

> "JJS" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > In article >,
> >
> > wrote:
>
> -stuff snipped-
>
> >> That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and
> >> it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are
> >> being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it.
> >
> >
> > Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what
> > my position is concerning the Dalai Lama?
> >
> > Joe
>
> I was just passing by, and have no horse in this race, but I do have an
> interesting story. Years ago I was in the far east, and met a learned
> person, (probably in an airport bar, so take everything I next say with a
> dose of salt) and the subject got around to Tibet. He said that most people
> do not know that Tibet was once a feudal serfdom, and had some practices
> that were very close to slavery.


As good a description as I've heard. Definitely not a paradise
for the masses.


The selection of the next Dalai Lama was
> done by having the monks (lamas?) scour the countryside for the best and the
> brightest amongst young males and then, with the agreement of the parents,
> they would be taken back to Lhasa? and trained and examined, and the best
> and the brightest would be the next Dalai Lama in waiting, and the others
> were on standby. But the thing is that none of them went back. They were
> essentially indentured servants. I don't remember everything, but he stated
> that this is probably why there is no real revolution amongst the Tibetan
> people, because they (maybe?) do not want the Dalai Lama system back. Of
> course the Chinese government could be pounding them into the ground, but
> with today's communication, and travelers, one thinks that one should hear
> something.

Hard to tell but the average guy was probably more concerned with
just surviving.

>
> As an aside, we have a friend who supports that brand of Buddhism, and so I
> did meet with some saffron-robed Buddhist (priests?) who were from the Dalai
> Lama's sect. They did a sand mandela (which is something to see)


I've seen a couple in Portland and they are amazing to watch being
created.


>and sang
> songs, and we saw slides of their monastery (which is now in India, and
> looked very Spartan, indeed) and I thought that they were probably good
> people, but they were definitely of a single culture - once in , never out.
> Maybe it is the same as a monk in the Catholic church, but I don't know. I
> know that my wife spent a hundred dollars for some blankets. Maybe someone
> will be helped.
>
> Anyway, I do not know if his story is true, or not, but it was interesting.
> I don't care, one way or the other.

Thanks it was interesting.

Joe

[Michael Shirley]

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 19:03:02 -0700, John Boyle >
wrote:


> To ALL: You people are nuts to think another war, at this Time and with
> the condition of out military without the draft, makes any sense! We do
> NOT have the manpower to handle the alleged war, and without manpower
> you can NOT do what is necessary! I am a Retired Army Sergeant with 21
> yrs of service and One year in Vietnam, with a Bronze star to boot!

Close, but draft, lack of, has little to do with it. The fact of the
matter is that our industrial base is about gone. Because of some really
bad decisions made by folks like Stewart Symington, that we don't need a
wartime production capability anymore, because we've got the bomb, we've
been on the same merge & RIF binge that the Brits have been on since
Christ was a Corporal.

What that means is that we're just like any other third world country. We
go to war with what we've got and when we run out, we're done. And that
makes buying airplanes that cost a hundred thirty million each for a
whopping total of around one hundred forty five or so airplanes, insane on
the face of it. One hundred thirty million is what you pay for a frigate
or a low end destroyer, not an asset which by the nature of it's
employment is essentially fungible. We're buying ourselves into a
situation where we have weapons that are too precious to actually risk
because they're impossible to replace in a timely manner, in wartime. Keep
in mind, that the production run for the F-4 Phantom was 2087 aircraft.

What it boils down to is that all the Chinese have to do in order to win
is what we did in WW-II-- outproduce everybody and just keep shoveling men
and gear in until we run out of stuff to send. All Beijing has to do in
order to win is to not lose.

And we're not gonna solve the problem with boutique weapons that have
twenty plus year long product development cycles either.

In the meantime, I got a look at what the Chinese are doing about their
fifth generation fighter project. Looks like a pirate copy of the Northrop
YF-23. You can bet though that the Chinese'll design theirs with a stable
aerobody rather than relying on EMP vulnerable electronic stability
systems, and you can bet that the electronics will be something more
advanced than the Intel 286 chip based systems on the F-22, which is what
you get when you get design & development programs that take twenty years
or longer.

Bottom line is this. First off, we need to reestablish our industrial
base and reorient military procurement thinking towards weapons we can
manufacture during a long slogging match with the Chinese and the Shanghai
Cooperative Organization.

Secondly, we need to go to the type of open market in combat aircraft
design that existed before the beginning of the Cold War when guys like
Symington created a mixed economy in weapons production. We need guys who
design and build airplanes, and then test them and then market them by
themselves without Air Force interference. Why? Because that way you have
a technological defense in depth like you had in WW-II where when Donovan
Berlin, (P-40) hit his slump, guys like Lee Atwood, Kelly Johnson and Ed
Heinemann could pick up the slack. Those guys all designed, built, tested
and flight qualified multiple aircraft. Your typical aeronautical engineer
gets to maybe work one project in his entire career. If you're gonna learn
to design combat aircraft, you do it by designing combat aircraft.

Laugh all you want to, but look at it this way. During the 1973 Yom
Kippur War, the Israelis lost 150 aicraft in three days to the Egyptian
air defense system. We were there to replace their airforce and their
armored forces, twice, and by the end of the war, much of their Air Force
consisted of US Air Force pilots on leave to fly the Phantoms that the
Israelis no longer had pilots to fly.

Now, maybe somebody can tell me who the Arsenal of Democracy is gonna be
to do for us, what we did for the Brits in one war and the Israelis in
another?



--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Michael Shirley]

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 10:53:26 -0700, PaPaPeng > wrote:


>
> This long thread is evidence that the Chinese are already messing up
> your minds from across the Pacific and in your own front yard (1.2%.)
> Do the South Asians (Indians), Russians, Europeans, Arabs, anyone else
> out there?, pose the same amount of concern about your place in the
> global scene? Nope. China has displaced the USSR as your enemy #1.

It doesn't help that China has decided that we're their primary enemy
too, and I can recall one speech by Chi Haotian that makes me rather
nervous when I think of it. If you look at Chinese foreign policy for the
last twenty five years or so, it strongly resembles a Weiqi game on a
board designed by Halford MacKinder and Karl Hausehoffer.

I've got to give them a great deal of credit though. We build weapons and
hope that we can come up with the logistics to deploy and support them.
The Chinese built the logistical structure first and deferred weapons
acquisition until they could support it. We could learn something from
that,...

It's one of the big reasons that I hope that we don't attack Iran,
(another SCO member) and that we get out of the Middle East. If you ask
que bono, the only winner regardless of what we do or how well, will be
Beijing.

In the end, I hope we stay out of a direct armed conflict in any case.
We're a post industrial technological power with a rapidly declining
industrial base while China is a rising industrial power and the
preeminent industrial power on the planet-- what we were in WW-II. Given
our lack of convertable industrial base and our tendency to buy boutique
weapons systems that are too precious to hazard and impossible to replace
in wartime, all China has to do in order to win is simply not lose.

I'd just as soon avoid two things. First a modern equivalent of the
Russo-Japanese War with us playing the Czar's part, and a situation where
we both work to exhaust each other like the Persians and the Byzantines,
since in the end, your Islamic proxies would come to devour us both.
(Which may be their intention. They study history too.)
--
"Implications leading to ramifications leading to shenanigans"-- Admiral
Elmo Zumwalt, USN.

[eatfastnoodle]

On Jun 15, 12:41*pm, "Michael Shirley" > wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 10:53:26 -0700, PaPaPeng > wrote:
>
> > This long thread is evidence that the Chinese are already messing up
> > your minds from across the Pacific and in your own front yard (1.2%.)
> > Do the South Asians (Indians), Russians, Europeans, Arabs, anyone else
> > out there?, pose the same amount of concern about your place in the
> > global scene? *Nope. *China has displaced the USSR as your enemy #1.
>
> * * * * It doesn't help that China has decided that we're their primary enemy *
> too, and I can recall one speech by Chi Haotian that makes me rather *
> nervous when I think of it. If you look at Chinese foreign policy for the *
> last twenty five years or so, it strongly resembles a Weiqi game on a *
> board designed by Halford MacKinder and Karl Hausehoffer.
>
> * * * * I've got to give them a great deal of credit though. We build weapons and *
> hope that we can come up with the logistics to deploy and support them. *
> The Chinese built the logistical structure first and deferred weapons *
> acquisition until they could support it. We could learn something from *
> that,...
>
> * * * * It's one of the big reasons that I hope that we don't attack Iran, *
> (another SCO member) and that we get out of the Middle East. If you ask *
> que bono, the only winner regardless of what we do or how well, will be *
> Beijing.
>
> * * * * In the end, I hope we stay out of a direct armed conflict in any case. *
> We're a post industrial technological power with a rapidly declining *
> industrial base while China is a rising industrial power and the *
> preeminent industrial power on the planet-- what we were in WW-II. Given *
> our lack of convertable industrial base and our tendency to buy boutique *
> weapons systems that are too precious to hazard and impossible to replace *
> in wartime, all China has to do in order to win is simply not lose.
>
> * * * * I'd just as soon avoid two things. First a modern equivalent of the *
> Russo-Japanese War with us playing the Czar's part, and a situation where *
> we both work to exhaust each other like the Persians and the Byzantines, *
> since in the end, your Islamic proxies would come to devour us both. *
> (Which may be their intention. They study history too.)
> --
> "Implications leading to ramifications leading to shenanigans"-- Admiral *
> Elmo Zumwalt, USN.

I highly doubt China will do anything to stop US from attacking Iran
if the US were really determined to do so. And I don't think the
biggest problem for US in a hypothetical war with Iran would be China
or Chinese arm sale to Iran. Just like Iraq, US would waste trillions
of dollars and thousands, even tens of thousands of casualties and a
further trash-down of American reputation and credibility in an
attempt to pacify Iran, however the military performs, the result
would still be a Iran deeply suspicious of America with more than
enough political entities waiting to take-over after a withdrawal. The
mindset of certain group of Americans often seen on this group is just
like typical American consumer who put "what I want" way ahead of
"what I can afford", they will talk about security, Bin Laden,
"mushroom cloud" incessantly while completely disregard whether or not
America can actually afford fighting another or even multiple Iraq
style war. One historical lesson seems to have totally lost on them:
when a great power overextend itself for too long, it will collapse.
The collapse of Soviet Union didn't teach them anything, on the
contrary, they seem to hold even more tightly to the naive belief
America will not overspend itself into collapse simply because America
is a democracy and has a free market system. They bear a eerie
resemblance to the bunch of army officers who dragged Imperial Japan
into WWII: one Japanese officer once told the minister of finance that
"we are soldiers, we don't know nothing about budget and fiance,all we
know is that for the security of our empire, we need this, if you
can't deliver, we will find somebody else who can". Afghanistan did
pose a threat to Soviet security, so with the same mindset, Soviet
leadership decided to invade, guess what, Soviet Union collapsed
partially because of the astronomical cost, security, geopolitical
intricacy, military posture, blah blah blah all become moot if you
can't keep a healthy domestic economy and keep your spending under
control.