Mapping Glider Locations

[COLIN LAMB]

As a member ham and member of the local Search and Rescue organization, we
have been interested in tracking fellow searchers. The technology has been
available for some time, but was not straightforward.

That may be changing, and the change may be very useful for soaring pilots
who wish to follow pilot tracks and locations and also for following the
nearness of other glider pilots.

APRS (automatic position reporting system) was developed by a ham and is now
used by police and other groups for tracking. The problem has been taking
the data and doing something useful with it. For a number of years, you
could transmit a position report and have it show up as a position and track
on the internet. That alone is useful to glider pilots, but it requires
access by the receiving station to the internet. To implement this setup,
all that is necessary is an old 2 meter handy talkie (about $50 or less
used), a TNC (less than $50 new) and a GPS. The GPS can be any retired unit
with simply a serial data output. So, for $150, you can place your location
on the internet. Note that you do not need to be a ham to use this in your
glider. It needs to be "operated" by a ham, which means the ham would
install it and set up the software. The software controls the transmitter,
so if the ham sets up the software, he is controlling the transmitter, even
if not present.

So far, this is fairly useful, although it does not allow the pilot to see
other pilots with APRS installations. Now, however, there is a big
improvement. See http://www.argentdata.com/products/tracker2.html . I am
about to order the Open Tracker OT2m to try out. I think what the
advertisement says is that with a 2 meter radio (the same $50 used one), the
OT2m (under $100) and a mapping GPS that allows uploading waypoints, you
could receive location reports from nearby soaring pilots and have them
appear on your GPS - with an identifier.

If you are not a ham or know a ham, you can now obtain a license without
knowing the morse code. That requirement has been eliminated. The exam, in
the simplest form, involves memorizing a pool of multiple choice questions
and receiving passing grades. A book with the most current question pool is
available.

I have not tried out the OT2m but am planning on ordering one and thought I
would post this to let others think about it.

Colin Lamb

[Wayne Paul]

"COLIN LAMB" > wrote in message
...

> ....Snip... Note that you do not need to be a ham to use this in your
> glider. It needs to be "operated" by a ham, which means the ham would
> install it and set up the software. The software controls the
> transmitter, so if the ham sets up the software, he is controlling the
> transmitter, even if not present.
>

Colin,

That appears to me to really be stretching the rules. Does the glider pilot
ever turn off the system? Isn't the glider pilot operating the system when
he turns it back on?

This my be in compliance with the "letter of the law"; however, it seems
beyond the rule's intent. Has the FCC officially ruled on this; or, are you
not asking the question for which you can't stand the answer.

Respectfully,

Wayne
W7ADK
http://www.soaridaho.com/

[COLIN LAMB]

Hello Wayne:

To be honest, I have not reseached the answer about control - however APRS
is used frequently in vehicles and animals that are not occupied by
amateurs. They are installed in balloons, used on search dogs. I am a ham
(K7FM) and have had an APRS unit installed in my car. It shuts down when
the ignition is turned off and I have the software quit sending out reports
if there is no change in position. I am sure I could write software that
would cause the transmitter to quit transmitting a position report when the
power was turned off.

So, the answer is I do not know the fine line about control, and the main
point of the post was to let soaring pilots (many who are hams or know hams)
of available technology. If it useful, they might just want to get a ham
ticket. My wife has no interest in radio at all but studied the question
pool over a weekend and became N7WXY.

Colin Lamb

[COLIN LAMB]

A bit of research says that it is not necessary to "babysit" an APRS
installation.

See http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=ControlOperator

Colin Lamb

[Wayne Paul]

"COLIN LAMB" > wrote in message
...
> Hello Wayne:
>
> To be honest, I have not reseached the answer about control - however APRS
> is used frequently in vehicles and animals that are not occupied by
> amateurs. They are installed in balloons, used on search dogs. I am a
> ham (K7FM) and have had an APRS unit installed in my car. It shuts down
> when the ignition is turned off and I have the software quit sending out
> reports if there is no change in position. I am sure I could write
> software that would cause the transmitter to quit transmitting a position
> report when the power was turned off.
>
> So, the answer is I do not know the fine line about control, and the main
> point of the post was to let soaring pilots (many who are hams or know
> hams) of available technology. If it useful, they might just want to get
> a ham ticket. My wife has no interest in radio at all but studied the
> question pool over a weekend and became N7WXY.
>
> Colin Lamb
Colin,

No matter what the technical FCC rules answer, I have a nice little Garmin
stand alone unit, and an old 2 meter hand held unit. It is time for me to
spend a few buck and get out my soldering iron.

Wayne
HP-14 "Six Foxtrot"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

[Scott[_7_]]

COLIN LAMB wrote:

>
> APRS (automatic position reporting system) was developed by a ham and is now
> used by police and other groups for tracking. The problem has been taking
> the data and doing something useful with it. For a number of years, you
> could transmit a position report and have it show up as a position and track
> on the internet. That alone is useful to glider pilots, but it requires
> access by the receiving station to the internet. To implement this setup,
> all that is necessary is an old 2 meter handy talkie (about $50 or less
> used), a TNC (less than $50 new) and a GPS. The GPS can be any retired unit
> with simply a serial data output. So, for $150, you can place your location
> on the internet. Note that you do not need to be a ham to use this in your
> glider. It needs to be "operated" by a ham, which means the ham would
> install it and set up the software. The software controls the transmitter,
> so if the ham sets up the software, he is controlling the transmitter, even
> if not present.



I don't agree with this at all. If you are using a 2M ham transmitter
without a ham license, you are violating FCC rules. The software you
claim to have controlling the transmitter does not eliminate the need
for a "control operator" for the 2M transmitter to be licensed.



> If you are not a ham or know a ham, you can now obtain a license without
> knowing the morse code. That requirement has been eliminated. The exam, in
> the simplest form, involves memorizing a pool of multiple choice questions
> and receiving passing grades. A book with the most current question pool is
> available.


This part is true.

>
> I have not tried out the OT2m but am planning on ordering one and thought I
> would post this to let others think about it.


I assume you have memorized the questions for your ham license before
you put a 2M transmitter on the air or you may get a written invitation
from the FCC to explain your actions.



>
> Colin Lamb
>
>

[COLIN LAMB]

"I don't agree with this at all. If you are using a 2M ham transmitter
without a ham license, you are violating FCC rules. The software you
claim to have controlling the transmitter does not eliminate the need
for a "control operator" for the 2M transmitter to be licensed."

Response: See http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=ControlOperator

"I assume you have memorized the questions for your ham license before
you put a 2M transmitter on the air or you may get a written invitation
from the FCC to explain your actions."

Response: I did not memorize any questions for the ham exam, since there
was no question pool when I went down to the FCC office and passed the extra
class exam. I had to learn the stuff.

Colin Lamb K7FM (licensed in 1959)

[Scott[_7_]]

COLIN LAMB wrote:

> As a member ham and member of the local Search and Rescue organization, we
> have been interested in tracking fellow searchers. The technology has been
> available for some time, but was not straightforward.
>
> That may be changing, and the change may be very useful for soaring pilots
> who wish to follow pilot tracks and locations and also for following the
> nearness of other glider pilots.
>
> APRS (automatic position reporting system) was developed by a ham and is now
> used by police and other groups for tracking. The problem has been taking
> the data and doing something useful with it. For a number of years, you
> could transmit a position report and have it show up as a position and track
> on the internet. That alone is useful to glider pilots, but it requires
> access by the receiving station to the internet. To implement this setup,
> all that is necessary is an old 2 meter handy talkie (about $50 or less
> used), a TNC (less than $50 new) and a GPS. The GPS can be any retired unit
> with simply a serial data output. So, for $150, you can place your location
> on the internet. Note that you do not need to be a ham to use this in your
> glider. It needs to be "operated" by a ham, which means the ham would
> install it and set up the software. The software controls the transmitter,
> so if the ham sets up the software, he is controlling the transmitter, even
> if not present.
>
> So far, this is fairly useful, although it does not allow the pilot to see
> other pilots with APRS installations. Now, however, there is a big
> improvement. See http://www.argentdata.com/products/tracker2.html . I am
> about to order the Open Tracker OT2m to try out. I think what the
> advertisement says is that with a 2 meter radio (the same $50 used one), the
> OT2m (under $100) and a mapping GPS that allows uploading waypoints, you
> could receive location reports from nearby soaring pilots and have them
> appear on your GPS - with an identifier.
>
> If you are not a ham or know a ham, you can now obtain a license without
> knowing the morse code. That requirement has been eliminated. The exam, in
> the simplest form, involves memorizing a pool of multiple choice questions
> and receiving passing grades. A book with the most current question pool is
> available.
>
> I have not tried out the OT2m but am planning on ordering one and thought I
> would post this to let others think about it.
>
> Colin Lamb
>
>

Furthering on my previous reply, I quote FCC rules (Part 97) and
hightlighted text with capitalization for emphasis:

§97.5 Station license grant required.
(a) The station apparatus MUST BE UNDER THE PHYSICAL CONTROL of a person
named in an amateur station license grant on the ULS consolidated
license database or a person authorized for alien reciprocal operation
by §97.107 of this part, before the station may transmit on any amateur
service frequency from any place that is:

(1) Within 50 km of the Earth's surface and at a place where the
amateur service is regulated by the FCC;

(2) Within 50 km of the Earth's surface and aboard any vessel or
craft that is documented or registered in the United States; or

(3) More than 50 km above the Earth's surface aboard any craft
that is documented or registered in the United States.



§97.7 Control operation required.
When transmitting, each amateur station must have a control operator.
THE CONTROL OPERATOR MUST BE a PERSON:

(a) For whom an amateur operator/primary station license grant appears
on the ULS consolidated licensee database, or

(b) Who is authorized for alien reciprocal operation by §97.107 of this
part.


And...I forgot to put my amateur radio callsign in my last post.

Scott
N0EDV

[Scott[_7_]]

COLIN LAMB wrote:

> Hello Wayne:
>
> To be honest, I have not reseached the answer about control - however APRS
> is used frequently in vehicles and animals that are not occupied by
> amateurs.

But, are they using transmitters on HAM frequencies? I hope not unless
they are licensed to do so. See my other post quoting FCC rules about
"Control Points" and "Control Operators".


I am sure I could write software that
> would cause the transmitter to quit transmitting a position report when the
> power was turned off.

I doubt you'd have to. If the transmitter power is turned off, no
position reports could be sent out.

>
> So, the answer is I do not know the fine line about control, and the main
> point of the post was to let soaring pilots (many who are hams or know hams)
> of available technology. If it useful, they might just want to get a ham
> ticket. My wife has no interest in radio at all but studied the question
pool over a weekend and became N7WXY.

If you are unsure of control point regulations, you might want to peruse
over the Part 97 rules. They can be found at
http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/news/part97/onepage.html
It seems to me to be a disservice to tell folks about something and
imply it's OK to violate FCC rules. They won't be very happy to get a
letter from the Feds. Congrats to you wife on her new license! Maybe
she will get hooked on radio if/when she starts using her privileges :)

Scott
N0EDV

[Scott[_7_]]

COLIN LAMB wrote:

> Hello Wayne:
>
> To be honest, I have not reseached the answer about control - however APRS
> is used frequently in vehicles and animals that are not occupied by
> amateurs.

But, are they using transmitters on HAM frequencies? I hope not unless
they are licensed to do so. See my other post quoting FCC rules about
"Control Points" and "Control Operators".


I am sure I could write software that
> would cause the transmitter to quit transmitting a position report when the
> power was turned off.

I doubt you'd have to. If the transmitter power is turned off, no
position reports could be sent out.

>
> So, the answer is I do not know the fine line about control, and the main
> point of the post was to let soaring pilots (many who are hams or know hams)
> of available technology. If it useful, they might just want to get a ham
> ticket. My wife has no interest in radio at all but studied the question
pool over a weekend and became N7WXY.

If you are unsure of control point regulations, you might want to peruse
over the Part 97 rules. They can be found at
http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/news/part97/onepage.html
It seems to me to be a disservice to tell folks about something and
imply it's OK to violate FCC rules. They won't be very happy to get a
letter from the Feds. Congrats to you wife on her new license! Maybe
she will get hooked on radio if/when she starts using her privileges :)

Scott
N0EDV

[Scott[_7_]]

COLIN LAMB wrote:


>
> Response: See http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=ControlOperator

> Colin Lamb K7FM (licensed in 1959)
>
>

OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law,
the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of
course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I
have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio
callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that
is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that
callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to
have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or
anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me!

Scott
N0EDV

[COLIN LAMB]

"§97.5 Station license grant required.
(a) The station apparatus MUST BE UNDER THE PHYSICAL CONTROL of a person
named in an amateur station license grant on the ULS consolidated
license database or a person authorized for alien reciprocal operation
by §97.107 of this part, before the station may transmit on any amateur
service frequency from any place that is:"

Response: N1547C set up a track just as I mentioned and the control
operator was not on the aircraft. The FCC knew about it (many years ago)
and thee were no problems. You do not need to be physically present at a
transmitter site to have physical control over the amateur station. For
example, I can place my station remotely and use a link to operate it. In
that case, I have physical control over it and am in compliance with part
97. Similarly, I can have a telephone nearby and a person present and make
a telephone call to tell the person to turn the transmitter off. I am the
control operator and the transmitter is under the physical control of me.

If I turn the APRS transmitter on before flight, then turn it off after the
flight, there is no question that I am in control, as long as I have a radio
link with the non-ham pilot to be able to tell him to turn off the APRS
transmitter, or I can turn it off after the flight. It need not be
immediate. This assumes the non ham is not able to change frequency or use
a mike or other things - which would not happen in an APRS installation. A
sanitary installation would have everything in a sealed box, with just an
on-off switch.

A "gray" area would occur if the non-ham operator could arbitrarily turn the
APRS unit on, but there are "work arounds". If the transmitter is connected
to the ignition switch of the aircraft, so that being turned on is
incidental to the operation of the aircraft, then it could be argued that
the non-ham does not have control. And, it would ber better if the on-off
switch was not resetable, which means it could be turned off, but not turned
on.

It also could go into a sleep mode, unless the aircraft was moving and never
be turned on by the non-ham. When the pilot returned to where th eham was,
it could be shut off.

Hams have been operating in "gray" areas for years and it is not a big
issue. I operate a ham repeater and have for decades. For some period of
time, they operated in a gray area. Similarly, hams have been connecting to
the internet for years, even though that is also a gray area.

Colin Lamb

[COLIN LAMB]

"I doubt you'd have to. If the transmitter power is turned off, no
position reports could be sent out."

Response: it was a joke.

[COLIN LAMB]

"OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law,
the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of
course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I
have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio
callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that
is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that
callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to
have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or
anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me!"

Certainly the FCC rules take precedence. And, as I explained in another
post, there can be some gray areas, depending upon how they are implemented.
The FCC knows what is going on and has inpliedly consented by doing nothing.
There must be a control operator and his or her callsign would be embedded
in each digital transmission. That would be the callsign of the control
operator. If there is any violation, it is the control operator that gets
called on the carpet.

Certain rules are inflexible for hams. First, they cannot charge for their
activities. So, any installation would have to be unconpensated on the part
of the amateur. Secondly, it could not be used in a commercial activity.
Both of these rules could be met in most sailplane installations. The
amateur would have to be familiar with the rules and decide how much control
he or she wanted. Control could be fairly simple. Your neighbor ham could
install and turn it on as you left for the airport, it could go into sleep
mode when you finished your flight and he could turn it off when you
returned home. In the meantime, your wife could watch your flight on the
internet on www.findu.com The soaring pilot might find this so useful, he
could become a ham so he could control things himself.

We have tried APRS in our search operation and I have sent out unlicensed
searchers with my call embedded in their transmitter. We actually have a
number of hams who are SAR members, so we are never far away from a control
operator.

I would not and do not intend to let hundeds of installations use my call in
APRS installations, but under the right circumstances would have no problem
installing the equipment in selected gliders at the appropraite time.

As to my ability to interpret the FCC rules, I am also a lawyer and am
comfortable dealing with "gray" areas - especially when there is public
benefit.

Colin Lamb

[Scott[_7_]]

COLIN LAMB wrote:
> "OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law,
> the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of
> course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I
> have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio
> callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that
> is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that
> callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to
> have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or
> anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me!"
>
> Certainly the FCC rules take precedence. And, as I explained in another
> post, there can be some gray areas, depending upon how they are implemented.
> The FCC knows what is going on and has inpliedly consented by doing nothing.
> There must be a control operator and his or her callsign would be embedded
> in each digital transmission. That would be the callsign of the control
> operator. If there is any violation, it is the control operator that gets
> called on the carpet.

Exactly. That is why I wondered if you had objections to the
possibility of having your call used by Joe Public so to speak.
>
> Certain rules are inflexible for hams. First, they cannot charge for their
> activities. So, any installation would have to be unconpensated on the part
> of the amateur. Secondly, it could not be used in a commercial activity.
> Both of these rules could be met in most sailplane installations. The
> amateur would have to be familiar with the rules and decide how much control
> he or she wanted. Control could be fairly simple. Your neighbor ham could
> install and turn it on as you left for the airport, it could go into sleep
> mode when you finished your flight and he could turn it off when you
> returned home. In the meantime, your wife could watch your flight on the
> internet on www.findu.com The soaring pilot might find this so useful, he
> could become a ham so he could control things himself.
>
> We have tried APRS in our search operation and I have sent out unlicensed
> searchers with my call embedded in their transmitter. We actually have a
> number of hams who are SAR members, so we are never far away from a control
> operator.
>
> I would not and do not intend to let hundeds of installations use my call in
> APRS installations, but under the right circumstances would have no problem
> installing the equipment in selected gliders at the appropraite time.
>
> As to my ability to interpret the FCC rules, I am also a lawyer and am
> comfortable dealing with "gray" areas - especially when there is public
> benefit.

OK, but to me PERSONALLY, I take "gray areas" as "indeterminate and
intermediate in character" (Webster's Universal College Dictionary)
meaning that while something may not be specifically illegal, it may not
necessarily be specifically legal either. This is the area where
lawyers dwell (as noted in an old Don Henley song). It sounds to me
that gray areas tend to be used by people that are after something that
is good for them rather than good for the public in general.

I'm not saying you can't do this, but my conscience says it's not the
intent of the FCC rules to let any Tom, Dick or Harry use amateur
frequncies on a continuing basis without obtaining a proper license. We
could debate this for decades, but would end up in the same spot in the
end (unless the FCC ever decides this is an abuse of license privileges
and specifically spells it out as legal or illegal). The wiki source
you provided suggests asking the ARRL for guidance and NOT to ask the
FCC. This is their way of saying "Let a sleeping dog lie." And this
implies to me that they are suggesting operating on the fringe of the
law. I think allowing non-hams to operate in the ham bands is not a
good thing for the amateur service, but that's just my opinion. After
all, it's not hard to get a license these days.

Scott
N0EDV
>
> Colin Lamb
>
>

[COLIN LAMB]

"I'm not saying you can't do this, but my conscience says it's not the
intent of the FCC rules to let any Tom, Dick or Harry use amateur
frequncies on a continuing basis without obtaining a proper license. We
could debate this for decades, but would end up in the same spot in the
end (unless the FCC ever decides this is an abuse of license privileges
and specifically spells it out as legal or illegal). The wiki source
you provided suggests asking the ARRL for guidance and NOT to ask the
FCC. This is their way of saying "Let a sleeping dog lie." And this
implies to me that they are suggesting operating on the fringe of the
law. I think allowing non-hams to operate in the ham bands is not a
good thing for the amateur service, but that's just my opinion. After
all, it's not hard to get a license these days."

Response: And, you are implying that glider pilots never operate in a gray
area. They do. One example is in the limitations of experimental aircraft.
Some things are set in stone. Others are not. There are numerous examples
of gray areas when it comes to flight. There was a discussion sometime ago
about whether a tow plane could tow a glider operating as an ultralight.

Let me give you a simple and realistic example of where APRS could be used
and there would be no gray area. You and your friend are glider pilots.
You are a ham and your friend is not. You decide to fly cross-country
together. You bring along two self contained APRS boxes. You place one box
in his aircraft and turn it on. You place the others in your aircraft and
turn it on. You leave a receive only unit at the airport connected to a GPS
with built in terrain mapping. Your friend tells his spouse that she can
follow your flight on a Google map on the internet at www.findu.com . Then,
you fly. During flight, you will be able to see your soaring companion on
your GPS screen. It makes the cross-country more enjoyable and safer. The
guys back at the airport can watch your progress with envy. At end of the
day, you return back to your home airport and land. You go over to him,
congratulate him on the successful flight, then shut the APRS beacon off and
remove from aircraft to take home with you. Then, you go have a beer.

Your friend's wife then notes that you returned to the airport at 4:45 pm
but did not get home until 7:30 pm, says the dinner is cold andwonders where
he spent the intervening 2 hours and 45 minutes.

Your friend says he is never going to use APRS again, or at least not let
his wife know about it.

Colin Lamb

[jodom]

Colin,

I'm a glider pilot and a ham. I read the opinions on your wiki and on
this thread. I'd be comfortable going out to the field and setting up
a tracker for a particular flight and taking the system home at the
end of the day, but there's no way I would set one up as a permanent
installation in a glider. The point of being control operator is that
you are in control of the transmissions. A permanent installation in
someone else's airplane is in no way remaining in control of the
radio, even if you could theoretically ask them politely to let you
disengage or modify the system.

The right way to do this (and it is a good idea that I hope catches
on) is to find another piece of spectrum intended for this use and to
get a proper license to use it. Operating in "grey areas" is not
where a responsible ham or pilot should be.

Respectfully,

Joel Odom
W4LL
http://joelodom.blogspot.com/


On Jun 1, 4:00 pm, "COLIN LAMB" > wrote:
> "I'm not saying you can't do this, but my conscience says it's not the
> intent of the FCC rules to let any Tom, Dick or Harry use amateur
> frequncies on a continuing basis without obtaining a proper license. We
> could debate this for decades, but would end up in the same spot in the
> end (unless the FCC ever decides this is an abuse of license privileges
> and specifically spells it out as legal or illegal). The wiki source
> you provided suggests asking the ARRL for guidance and NOT to ask the
> FCC. This is their way of saying "Let a sleeping dog lie." And this
> implies to me that they are suggesting operating on the fringe of the
> law. I think allowing non-hams to operate in the ham bands is not a
> good thing for the amateur service, but that's just my opinion. After
> all, it's not hard to get a license these days."
>
> Response: And, you are implying that glider pilots never operate in a gray
> area. They do. One example is in the limitations of experimental aircraft.
> Some things are set in stone. Others are not. There are numerous examples
> of gray areas when it comes to flight. There was a discussion sometime ago
> about whether a tow plane could tow a glider operating as an ultralight.
>
> Let me give you a simple and realistic example of where APRS could be used
> and there would be no gray area. You and your friend are glider pilots.
> You are a ham and your friend is not. You decide to fly cross-country
> together. You bring along two self contained APRS boxes. You place one box
> in his aircraft and turn it on. You place the others in your aircraft and
> turn it on. You leave a receive only unit at the airport connected to a GPS
> with built in terrain mapping. Your friend tells his spouse that she can
> follow your flight on a Google map on the internet atwww.findu.com. Then,
> you fly. During flight, you will be able to see your soaring companion on
> your GPS screen. It makes the cross-country more enjoyable and safer. The
> guys back at the airport can watch your progress with envy. At end of the
> day, you return back to your home airport and land. You go over to him,
> congratulate him on the successful flight, then shut the APRS beacon off and
> remove from aircraft to take home with you. Then, you go have a beer.
>
> Your friend's wife then notes that you returned to the airport at 4:45 pm
> but did not get home until 7:30 pm, says the dinner is cold andwonders where
> he spent the intervening 2 hours and 45 minutes.
>
> Your friend says he is never going to use APRS again, or at least not let
> his wife know about it.
>
> Colin Lamb

[COLIN LAMB]

Hello Joel:

The original post was not for the purpose of encouraging a non-ham to have a
permanent APRS installation. The point of the original post was to
familiarize those not acquainted with APRS about the possibilities for use
with soaring. It has some real benefit over SPOT in that fellow pilots can
follow each other, even though they do not have internet capability. And,
there is no service fee. I know a number of soaring pilots who are hams.

The post also included the fact that the benefits can be utilized by
non-hams. There is no gray area about that. That was somewhat like a
footnote, since it was not the main purpose of the post. I posted a website
which contained further information, for those that were interested.
Suddenly, The thread turned to "it cannot be done", so that has consumed
much of the content. Note that I did not advocate that a ham should install
hundreds of APRS systems and then walk away. I am going to build a couple
and try them out in my glider and a friend's glider. I am going to turn
them on and turn them off. I did not advocate a permanent installation, and
you yourself admitted you would be comfortable letting a non-ham fly with
one.

In days of old, we went down to the FCC office and had to pass a code test,
with some government official breathing over our shoulder. I did that. No
more. Code has gone away and the written test is no longer taken in an
office. You can memorize the question pool in a day and take the exam - if
there is a benefit from becoming an amateur. APRS might be that benefit.

In essence, the thread started selling the benefits of amateur radio,
demonstrating that amateur radio can provide safety and convenience to the
glider pilot. It was not to promote an outlaw operation. The FCC knows
exactly what is going on with APRS and has not handed down one adverse
ruling, letter or public statement even suggesting anything that I advanced
in my statements is in a gray area. I expect the reason is that they wish
to advance technology and promote technical growth. Remember that the
original application of APRS was a unit that was placed on a non-ham. I
recall it was a blind runner in a marathon. As a result of this experiment,
APRS is now used by many agencies and services.

Colin Lamb

[J a c k]

COLIN LAMB wrote:
> "§97.5 Station license grant required.
> (a) The station apparatus MUST BE UNDER THE PHYSICAL CONTROL of a person
> named in an amateur station license grant on the ULS consolidated
> license database or a person authorized for alien reciprocal operation
> by §97.107 of this part, before the station may transmit on any amateur
> service frequency from any place that is:"


Is it a good idea to rely on continued operation in a "gray area" when
dealing with either the FCC or the FAA? Unfortunately, both systems are
set up to encourage exactly that, with varying Reg. interpretations and
enforcement priorities from one region to another.


How about this?

§97.109 Station control.

(a) Each amateur station must have at least one control point.
(b) When a station is being locally controlled, the control
operator must be at the control point.



Jack