Cost to earn a glider certificate? [Archive]

ContestID67

June 7th 08, 03:40 PM

First, this is a great sport. You will love it. Nothing will prepare
you for the wonderful silence after getting off tow for the first
time.

It appears that this club is slightly different than the norm (aren't
we all?). They have low yearly dues ($164 including SSA membership),
$10 per flight glider rental, $50 per 3000 foot tow and $30/hour for
an instructor. Let's assume it takes 30 rides to solo, each ride to
3000 feet lasting 30 mins (with ground school) over the course of one
year. That adds up to 164+30x10+30x50+30x30x0.5=$2414. So the $2500
was a pretty good guess.

My club is $650/year dues, no rental, no instructor fees, and $30 per
3000 foot tow. That adds up to 650+30x30=$1550.

Anyone have the numbers for a commercial operation?

However, you need to add in materials, FAA test fees (private), sweat
equity (it is a club after all) and the inevitable cost of the "I-need-
to-buy-my-own-glider" bug.

- John DeRosa

Jim Logajan

June 7th 08, 07:13 PM

wrote:
> On Jun 6, 8:34*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
>> Anyone have a rough idea of the amount to budget to earn a glider
>> certificate?
>>
>> The glider training closest to me appears to be at this club:
>>
>> http://www.kpflight.com/coburg.htm
>
> I strongly suggest you talk to the club members. Costs vary wildly
> between different clubs. It probably cost me somewhere near
> $2,500.00. I didn't start until I was in my late 40's. Younger
> people generally pick it up more quickly. It took 17 hours, roughly
> 36 flights, before I soloed, and something near 50 more flights
> (mostly solo) before my instructor insisted I take my check ride and
> get my ticket. I was a pretty 'slow' student.

For the record, here's my background:

I'm 52, have essentially no previous experience (Okay, I did have a 3rd
class medical and student pilot certificate in 1991, but while I passed
ground school I got almost no stick time! Mark it up to "life happened".)

Since I am self-employed I could probably dedicate a concentrated effort
for two to three weeks. But I suspect the trick to making that happen would
be finding a quiet zone between work projects (I find it tough to put off
clients) that also coincided with presumable good weather and instructor
availability.

Jim Logajan

June 7th 08, 07:36 PM

"Vaughn Simon" > wrote:
> "Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>... your real question (IMHO) should be "what does it cost to
>>participate in soaring?".
>
> Well said! Since much of soaring is done solo anyhow, and much of your
> student flying is also solo, the cost to actually earn your
> certificate is not terribly relevant. Flying is flying...certificate
> or not, and flying is a wonderful thing.

Yes, I understand the training cost is just part of a continuum of ongoing
costs. But I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that I'll be doing more
flying in a short span of time than I would once I earn a certificate. So
it's a spike in discretionary spending that needs to be planned for.

Jim Logajan

June 7th 08, 07:39 PM

Brian > wrote:
> On Jun 6, 9:34*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
>> Anyone have a rough idea of the amount to budget to earn a glider
>> certificate?
>>
>> The glider training closest to me appears to be at this club:
>>
>> http://www.kpflight.com/coburg.htm
>
> I am not that familiar with the club or there cost, But I have worked
> with their examiner, he is excellent and I have had several students
> take their checkrides at this club.

That is good to know.

> You might also check out www.nwskysports.com in Hood River or the
> Willamette Valley Soaring Club. They do a Soaring Safari at the Alvord
> Desert every year in July where they specialize in ground launches.
> There you might be able to arrange for a lot of training for a very
> little cost.

Thanks for the tip!

noel.wade

June 7th 08, 07:51 PM

Just a quick note:

Don't overlook the "supplies" category.

Charts, learning materials, study guides, etc. will probably add up to
about $500. It'll happen in $20 - $50 increments, but it adds up
fast. And there's no such thing as "too much studying" in the world
of piloting!

BTW for training materials, I'm a big fan of Bob Wander's books. He
has some great "Package Deals" on his website for around $100 - $150
that include all the books you need for training and basic soaring
flight. Good stuff! I'm not associated with him, but like his
writing and his lecturing style (if you ever get a chance to hear him
speak, he's pretty good): http://www.bobwander.com

Take care,

--Noel

Jim Logajan

June 7th 08, 07:53 PM

ContestID67 > wrote:
> It appears that this club is slightly different than the norm (aren't
> we all?). They have low yearly dues ($164 including SSA membership),
> $10 per flight glider rental, $50 per 3000 foot tow and $30/hour for
> an instructor. Let's assume it takes 30 rides to solo, each ride to
> 3000 feet lasting 30 mins (with ground school) over the course of one
> year. That adds up to 164+30x10+30x50+30x30x0.5=$2414. So the $2500
> was a pretty good guess.

Based on your estimate and those provided by others, I'm guessing somewhere
between $2500 and $5000 seems the most probable cost range, when everything
is factored in.

But I probably wouldn't spread the cost over a year. If I had fun for that
length of calendar time without sharing the results of it with my wife it'd
really cost me! :-)

> My club is $650/year dues, no rental, no instructor fees, and $30 per
> 3000 foot tow. That adds up to 650+30x30=$1550.

Wow. That's not much!

> Anyone have the numbers for a commercial operation?
>
> However, you need to add in materials, FAA test fees (private), sweat
> equity (it is a club after all) and the inevitable cost of the "I-need-
> to-buy-my-own-glider" bug.

I-need-to-buy-my-own-glider? Better not feed that bug! I haven't even
gotten off the ground and the idea of owning a motor glider sounds
appealing. That would make the training costs "inconsequential". ;-)

Vaughn Simon

June 7th 08, 07:55 PM

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
> wrote:
> For the record, here's my background:
>
> I'm 52, have essentially no previous experience (Okay, I did have a 3rd
> class medical and student pilot certificate in 1991, but while I passed
> ground school I got almost no stick time! Mark it up to "life happened".)

I started out as an ab-initio student glider pilot at about that age. I was
not/am not a natural pilot. Learning to fly a glider was one of the hardest and
most satisfying things I have ever done. I found learning the tow to be the
hardest part, and that is one of the first things you need to do. There were
times when I honestly expected my CFI to gently tell me to find another hobby.

After I finally passed my checkride, I kept learning. I even got my
Commercial and CFIG and then spent a few years as a part-time glider rides pilot
& flight instructor.

If you have the desire, go for it! That said, don't expect it to be quick or
easy at your age, but you can expect a continuous stream of satisfying
experiences as you finally overcome each obstacle on the path to your
certificate.
>
> Since I am self-employed I could probably dedicate a concentrated effort
> for two to three weeks. But I suspect the trick to making that happen would
> be finding a quiet zone between work projects (I find it tough to put off
> clients) that also coincided with presumable good weather and instructor
> availability.

Why rush it? Take the time to do things right and savor the entire process.
You are only a new student pilot once. Oh yes, also take all of the time you
need to absorb the knowledge and experiences necessary to fly safely. Flight
training is not a race.

Vaughn

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

June 7th 08, 10:20 PM

"ContestID67" > wrote in message
...
<...>
> Anyone have the numbers for a commercial operation?

A lot of them put numbers up on their web pages - some random samples (no
endorsement of or experience with any of these..)

http://www.soaringnv.com/instruction.php

http://www.caracolesoaring.com/learn2.htm

http://www.skysailing.com/pages/lessons.html

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

Martin Gregorie[_3_]

June 7th 08, 11:04 PM

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 13:36:27 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:

> Yes, I understand the training cost is just part of a continuum of ongoing
> costs. But I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that I'll be doing more
> flying in a short span of time than I would once I earn a certificate. So
> it's a spike in discretionary spending that needs to be planned for.
>
You may be surprised. I fly in the UK and learnt here, mainly on a winch,
but I think the pre-solo hours are similar to the typical US
aero-tow learning experience. The main difference is that winching
provides more, shorter flights with a considerably lower launch cost. A
side effect is that learning on the winch means you are likely to have
more landing practise because you will have done at least twice as many
launches and landings as an aero tow student by the time you solo.

But I digress: in my pre-solo year (6 months to solo flying weekends, then
a month in the club SZD Juniors before thermals stopped for the year)
I accumulated about 25 hours flying. For the next four years I averaged
around 70 hours per year and assumed that would be my norm. However the
last two years have really dropped that figure thanks to changed weather
patterns, last year I didn't quite touch 40 hours and this year looks
set to be worse. But then, we ARE a weather-dependent game.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. |
org | Zappa fan & glider pilot

Nyal Williams[_2_]

June 7th 08, 11:44 PM

Think of it this way; except for the investment in your own glider, the
costs are about the same as playing golf.

The instruction part will be as much fun as the later solo-flying, well,
almost. And, as an investment, a glider depreciates less that most
anything you can buy. Most people regain their original purchase price
owing to inflation. Try that with a car or boat.

At 22:04 07 June 2008, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 13:36:27 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:
>
>> Yes, I understand the training cost is just part of a continuum of
>ongoing
>> costs. But I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that I'll be doing more

>> flying in a short span of time than I would once I earn a certificate.
>So
>> it's a spike in discretionary spending that needs to be planned for.
>>
>You may be surprised. I fly in the UK and learnt here, mainly on a
winch,
>but I think the pre-solo hours are similar to the typical US
>aero-tow learning experience. The main difference is that winching
>provides more, shorter flights with a considerably lower launch cost. A
>side effect is that learning on the winch means you are likely to have
>more landing practise because you will have done at least twice as many
>launches and landings as an aero tow student by the time you solo.
>
>But I digress: in my pre-solo year (6 months to solo flying weekends,
then
>a month in the club SZD Juniors before thermals stopped for the year)
>I accumulated about 25 hours flying. For the next four years I averaged
>around 70 hours per year and assumed that would be my norm. However the
>last two years have really dropped that figure thanks to changed weather
>patterns, last year I didn't quite touch 40 hours and this year looks
>set to be worse. But then, we ARE a weather-dependent game.
>
>
>--
>martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>gregorie. |
>org | Zappa fan & glider pilot
>
>
>

01-- Zero One

June 8th 08, 02:24 PM

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
:

> ContestID67 > wrote:
> > It appears that this club is slightly different than the norm (aren't
> > we all?). They have low yearly dues ($164 including SSA membership),
> > $10 per flight glider rental, $50 per 3000 foot tow and $30/hour for
> > an instructor. Let's assume it takes 30 rides to solo, each ride to
> > 3000 feet lasting 30 mins (with ground school) over the course of one
> > year. That adds up to 164+30x10+30x50+30x30x0.5=$2414. So the $2500
> > was a pretty good guess.
>
> Based on your estimate and those provided by others, I'm guessing somewhere
> between $2500 and $5000 seems the most probable cost range, when everything
> is factored in.
>
> But I probably wouldn't spread the cost over a year. If I had fun for that
> length of calendar time without sharing the results of it with my wife it'd
> really cost me! :-)
>
> > My club is $650/year dues, no rental, no instructor fees, and $30 per
> > 3000 foot tow. That adds up to 650+30x30=$1550.
>
> Wow. That's not much!
>
> > Anyone have the numbers for a commercial operation?
> >
> > However, you need to add in materials, FAA test fees (private), sweat
> > equity (it is a club after all) and the inevitable cost of the "I-need-
> > to-buy-my-own-glider" bug.
>
> I-need-to-buy-my-own-glider? Better not feed that bug! I haven't even
> gotten off the ground and the idea of owning a motor glider sounds
> appealing. That would make the training costs "inconsequential". ;-)

Jim, let the idea of a motorglider go for a while. You need to
experience the simple pleasures of quiet flight, comraderie, and
becoming one with your machine.

You would likely spend more time than you could possibly imagine
fiddling with and maintaining it. Time you really need to be soaring
quietly and freely and learning what it means to use your brain and soul
to keep a motorless craft in the air for hours at a time.

My $0.02.

Larry

Herb

June 8th 08, 02:44 PM

On Jun 7, 1:51 pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> Just a quick note:
>
> Don't overlook the "supplies" category.
>
> Charts, learning materials, study guides, etc. will probably add up to
> about $500. It'll happen in $20 - $50 increments, but it adds up
> fast. And there's no such thing as "too much studying" in the world
> of piloting!
>
> BTW for training materials, I'm a big fan of Bob Wander's books. He
> has some great "Package Deals" on his website for around $100 - $150
> that include all the books you need for training and basic soaring
> flight. Good stuff! I'm not associated with him, but like his
> writing and his lecturing style (if you ever get a chance to hear him
> speak, he's pretty good): http://www.bobwander.com
>
> Take care,
>
> --Noel

Unless I missed it, none of the previous posts mentioned the club
initiation fee which can be easily a one-time expense of $500-$1,000
or more. Clubs put up that entrance barrier to make sure applicants
have well considered joining a club and to provide a (non-redeemable)
"share" of the very expensive club equipment. When entering the sport
this amount needs to be added to the already stated costs.

Herb, J7

Nyal Williams[_2_]

June 8th 08, 10:14 PM

Right! About the amount of a good set of golf clubs.

At 13:44 08 June 2008, Herb wrote:
>On Jun 7, 1:51 pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
>> Just a quick note:
>>
>> Don't overlook the "supplies" category.
>>
>> Charts, learning materials, study guides, etc. will probably add up to
>> about $500. It'll happen in $20 - $50 increments, but it adds up
>> fast. And there's no such thing as "too much studying" in the
world
>> of piloting!
>>
>> BTW for training materials, I'm a big fan of Bob Wander's books. He
>> has some great "Package Deals" on his website for around $100 -
$150
>> that include all the books you need for training and basic soaring
>> flight. Good stuff! I'm not associated with him, but like his
>> writing and his lecturing style (if you ever get a chance to hear him
>> speak, he's pretty good): http://www.bobwander.com
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> --Noel
>
>Unless I missed it, none of the previous posts mentioned the club
>initiation fee which can be easily a one-time expense of $500-$1,000
>or more. Clubs put up that entrance barrier to make sure applicants
>have well considered joining a club and to provide a (non-redeemable)
>"share" of the very expensive club equipment. When entering the sport
>this amount needs to be added to the already stated costs.
>
>Herb, J7
>

Alan[_6_]

June 8th 08, 10:39 PM

In article > "Vaughn Simon" > writes:
>
>"Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
. ..
>>... your real question (IMHO) should be "what does it cost to participate in
>>soaring?".
>
> Well said! Since much of soaring is done solo anyhow, and much of your
>student flying is also solo, the cost to actually earn your certificate is not
>terribly relevant. Flying is flying...certificate or not, and flying is a
>wonderful thing.
>
>Vaughn (CFIG)

Much the same was true when I got my power license -- flying is flying.

However, now I wonder about what sort of flights to expect while getting
the rating -- how many useful flights and how many wasted ones? Does it really
take 15 to 20 flights of dual before solo? What is covered in those, and how
can one take control of the process to make it more efficient?

How many more dual before "high solo", and how many more before the check ride?

How many of these flights actually get into lift and give a good learning period,
and how many are just a ride back down from release?

yes, I know, "ask the local group's instructors". I am asking here first so I
am better equipped to evaluate their answers when I do so.

Alan

Nyal Williams[_2_]

June 8th 08, 11:59 PM

There are no wasted flights; you can learn something from every one. No
two days are alike and the weather has to be figured out each day.

That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an instructor
into your log book before it is legal to solo. The efficiency is to carry
that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the list in
front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead of
time.

I had a student fly a two hour flight as his second flight after solo here
in the midwest. The next time he flew it was 16 minutes; he didn't sort
out the weather. You will have ups and downs in your whole career as a
glider pilot and that is what makes it interesting.

At 21:39 08 June 2008, Alan wrote:
>In article "Vaughn Simon" writes:
>>
>>"Tony Verhulst" wrote in message
. ..
>>>... your real question (IMHO) should be "what does it cost to
>participate in
>>>soaring?".
>>
>> Well said! Since much of soaring is done solo anyhow, and much of
>your
>>student flying is also solo, the cost to actually earn your certificate
>is not
>>terribly relevant. Flying is flying...certificate or not, and flying
is
>a
>>wonderful thing.
>>
>>Vaughn (CFIG)
>
> Much the same was true when I got my power license -- flying is
flying.
>
> However, now I wonder about what sort of flights to expect while
getting
>the rating -- how many useful flights and how many wasted ones? Does it
>really
>take 15 to 20 flights of dual before solo? What is covered in those,
and
>how
>can one take control of the process to make it more efficient?
>
> How many more dual before "high solo", and how many more before the
>check ride?
>
> How many of these flights actually get into lift and give a good
>learning period,
>and how many are just a ride back down from release?
>
> yes, I know, "ask the local group's instructors". I am asking here
>first so I
>am better equipped to evaluate their answers when I do so.
>
>
> Alan
>

June 9th 08, 12:48 AM

"Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
...
>snip>
>
> That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an instructor
> into your log book before it is legal to solo. The efficiency is to carry
> that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the list in
> front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead of
> time.
>
> snip>

Nyal.. would you care to list all 17 items?

BT

bagmaker

June 9th 08, 12:55 AM

Anyone have a rough idea of the amount to budget to earn a glider
certificate?

The glider training closest to me appears to be at this club:

http://www.kpflight.com/coburg.htm

simply, it will cost you at least $2000

In detail, you added you were married, so $4000, after equal payback to the one who cannot be argued with.

In fact, you will get to the point when you want your own glider, after having happily spent tens of thousands on:

Fuel and vehicle expenses to and from your club
accomodation expenses whilst flying, quadruple those costs for the wife to accompany you
beer and food expenses for yourself, your crew and your new friends
better sunglasses, hats, shoes and clothes
books, maps, PDAs, software and upgrades
tow fees, tug pilots beer
bribe money for officials at contests
donations to the club to support newbies after you

Yep, tens of thousands of dollars

but you will spend it happily, and by then, gliders will be even better, and even more expensive

On the up side, when you are rugged up by the day nurse and sipping your tea with your new mates, all in wheelchairs at the wrinkly home, some 40 years away, one of your comrades will bring up a long conversation about how they had always wanted to try gliding.

You will smile, add your many hours of interesting experience in gliders to the conversation but they wont ever be able to understand.
Not ever, their option has passed and words alone cannot explain our sport
You alone will have done it, you alone went the extra step.
You will be the most content person in the conversation.
It cost you tens of thousands, you will find the money, trust me.

The cost is not the problem, the lack of time is.
You have to balance your spare time with the ones you love, your other passions and true relaxation.
One day, like everyone, you will die.

At that time, you will have not done enough gliding

bagger

SoaringXCellence

June 9th 08, 02:11 AM

On Jun 8, 4:48*pm, "BT" > wrote:
> "Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >snip>
>
> > That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an instructor
> > into your log book before it is legal to solo. *The efficiency is to carry
> > that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the list in
> > front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead of
> > time.
>
> > snip>
>
> Nyal.. would you care to list all 17 items?
>
> BT

The list of items is found in the Student Pilot section of the FAR
part 61.87(i) 1-19

(i) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a glider.
A student pilot who is receiving training for a glider rating or
privileges must receive and log flight training for the following
maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight
planning, preparation, aircraft systems, and, if appropriate,
powerplant operations;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups, if applicable;

(3) Launches, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions, if
applicable;

(5) Airport traffic patterns, including entry procedures;

(6) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
avoidance;

(7) Descents with and without turns using high and low drag
configurations;

(8) Flight at various airspeeds;

(9) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(10) Ground reference maneuvers, if applicable;

(11) Inspection of towline rigging and review of signals and release
procedures, if applicable;

(12) Aerotow, ground tow, or self-launch procedures;

(13) Procedures for disassembly and assembly of the glider;

(14) Stall entry, stall, and stall recovery;

(15) Straight glides, turns, and spirals;

(16) Landings, including normal and crosswind;

(17) Slips to a landing;

(18) Procedures and techniques for thermalling; and

(19) Emergency operations, including towline break procedures.

Mike

noel.wade

June 9th 08, 03:13 AM

There are two critically important things, in ensuring that your
training flights are not "wasted":

1) Your preparation. Prepare ahead of time. Most clubs are really
not that good at the ground-instruction side of things - so you have
to do a lot of the leg-work on this yourself. Be self-motivated, find
good books and DVDs on transitioning to gliders and learning to fly
gliders. Read / Watch them, and really try to absorb all the
knowledge from them that you can.

2) Your instructor(s). Many clubs have rotating duty cycles or
volunteer instructors that come out approximately "whenever they feel
like it" Their volunteerism is commendable, but it makes for a slower
training system because you will be repeating maneuvers to different
instructors (so that they confirm you know your stuff). Try to work
with just a few instructors - be respectful but aggressive in getting
just one or two scheduled to fly with you as much as possible. In my
club I flew with 6 (!!) instructors in my first few months; as a
result it took 20 flights to go solo (transitioning from PPL SEL) when
it should have taken 10. Once I *was* solo, none of the instructors
wanted to prep me for my ride. So I went to a commercial operation to
finish up and take my checkride, and got through in 3 days and only 7
or 8 flights (including my checkride flights).

Regarding flight length: Its hard to swallow this when you're eager
to soar - but thermalling and long flight times are NOT something to
aim for early on. Getting the instructor in the back seat, running
through the maneuvers (and getting comfortable with them) is the
hardest thing to schedule. More short flights is better than fewer
long ones - even if it costs a few $$ more for those extra tows.
Remember that once you're signed off to go solo, you can practice
thermalling and try to truly soar as much as you want (even before you
get your checkride)... With only a single person in the cockpit,
you'll also find that your glider will climb better and turn better -
so thermalling will be more enjoyable at that point, too!

Finally, one more tip: If you're computer-savvy, there's a great
flight simulator for soaring. Its called "Condor". It is best if you
have the basics of glider controls and aerotowing under your belt
before you try it, but once you're to the point where you want to
practice thermalling, cross-country flight, ridge-soaring, and other
advanced techniques, Condor is the way to go! But again, get
comfortable with gliding flight and towing first.

Take care,

--Noel
P.S. Sorry, there's one more thing some clubs are really bad at:
Teaching new members the non-soaring side of operations! Not only do
these duties help the club, but they help pass the time between
flights and help YOU be a better pilot (no joke!). Go out and have
someone teach you how to wing-run. You'll get to see a ton of
different take-off techniques over the course of a few hours (some of
which you may make a note to try - or avoid!); and you'll learn a lot
about safety on both ends of the line. Also, helping rig and pre-
flight other gliders (club and non-club) can be a great learning
experience. Be respectful of people's equipment and NEVER touch,
unless you're given permission. Seeing different equipment designs,
pre-flight techniques, assembly methods, and talking with other pilots
will help you learn things - some things you won't even realize you've
learned until later! One of the reasons we fly as "clubs" is because
gliding is really an all-day venture - there's a lot of value AND
enjoyment in the camaraderie and in being part of the entire operation
- not just getting "stick-time" and then going home... Have fun!

Nyal Williams[_2_]

June 9th 08, 03:14 AM

Someone beat me to it, and there are 19 of them -- i goofed.

To reiterate: print it out, keep it with your logbook, and urge your
instructor to focus on missing items, and to USE THE LANGUAGE OF THE CFRs
in your logbook.

At 23:48 08 June 2008, BT wrote:
>
>"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
>>snip>
>>
>> That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an
instructor
>> into your log book before it is legal to solo. The efficiency is to
>carry
>> that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the list
>in
>> front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead of
>> time.
>>
>> snip>
>
>Nyal.. would you care to list all 17 items?
>
>BT
>
>
>

June 9th 08, 04:57 AM

I figured that was what the answer would be.. and yes.. 19..
but all 19 need not be listed for which flight they occured on. "xxyz
taught to profiency on flight IAW FAR 61.87 yadayada yada
That's what a training folder is for.
Only the endorsement that states that ground (academic) and flight training
of the items in 61.87(c)(l) have been completed.
SSF had a great sample shown below, also 61.65E had copies of all
endorsements required, and there are not 19 training endorsements for the
glider student pilot.

STUDENT PILOT

Aeronautical Knowledge - FAR 61.87(b)

I certify that M _____________ has satisfactorily completed a pre-solo
written examination as required by FAR 61.87(b) demonstrating knowledge of
the portions of FAR Part 61 and Part 91 applicable to student pilots,
airspace rules and procedures, and the flight characteristics and
operational limitations for a (Glider Type), and that I have reviewed all
incorrect answers with him.

Pre-Solo Flight Training - FARs 61.31(j) and §61.87 (c)

(Aerotow)

I certify that M ___________ has received the instruction required by FAR
61.31(j) and FAR 61.87(c) and (i) in a (Glider Type) and that he has
satisfactorily accomplished ground and flight training in aerotow procedures
and operations and proficiency therein, has demonstrated proficiency in the
applicable maneuvers and procedures included in FAR 61.87(i), and has
demonstrated adequate knowledge of flight rules listed in FAR Part 91 and is
competent to make safe solo flights in that glider; provided that each such
flight is carried out when the surface wind (steady or gusting) does not
exceed ___ kts and the crosswind component does not exceed ___ kts. This
approval is valid for the ___ days immediately following this endorsement
and provided such flights are conducted entirely within gliding range of the
takeoff point.

Note: Ground and Self-Launch endorsement samples are found in the
"Additional Endorsements" section of this publication.

BT

"Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
...
> Someone beat me to it, and there are 19 of them -- i goofed.
>
> To reiterate: print it out, keep it with your logbook, and urge your
> instructor to focus on missing items, and to USE THE LANGUAGE OF THE CFRs
> in your logbook.
>
> At 23:48 08 June 2008, BT wrote:
>>
>>"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
>>>snip>
>>>
>>> That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an
> instructor
>>> into your log book before it is legal to solo. The efficiency is to
>>carry
>>> that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the list
>>in
>>> front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead of
>>> time.
>>>
>>> snip>
>>
>>Nyal.. would you care to list all 17 items?
>>
>>BT
>>
>>
>>

Michael Ash

June 9th 08, 05:33 AM

Alan > wrote:
> Much the same was true when I got my power license -- flying is flying.
>
> However, now I wonder about what sort of flights to expect while getting
> the rating -- how many useful flights and how many wasted ones? Does it really
> take 15 to 20 flights of dual before solo?

It took me 25, which was considered to be rather unusually low. However I
was not a transition pilot, but ab initio.

> What is covered in those, and how
> can one take control of the process to make it more efficient?
>
> How many more dual before "high solo", and how many more before the check ride?
>
> How many of these flights actually get into lift and give a good learning period,
> and how many are just a ride back down from release?

For most training flights, the amount of time spent in the air is not all
that important. Learning how to handle the glider doesn't take all that
long. Even things like stall recovery, unusual attidutes, etc. don't
require that many flights. Learning how to find and work lift is always
good, of course, but you don't strictly need much for solo. What you do
need is to be able to take off, tow, and land reliably, and that's where
much of the pre-solo practice goes. You get to practice them the same
amount on each flight no matter how much lift you encounter, so this has
little influence on the number of training flights required.

When I was learning, I'd come to the airport any time the weather looked
flyable. If there was lift, great. If not, I didn't really care. Now I'm
much more careful about evaluating the weather beforehand to see if it's
going to be worth my while. Lift is much more important for having fun
than it is for learning.

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

Gavin Short[_2_]

June 9th 08, 05:59 AM

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant!

I have a smile on my face from spending yesterday evening with my new
flight computer on the dining room table. Experimenting with loading it
up with waypoints and airspace and driving it around a task with my
laptop. I will have that grin all day and none of my work colleagues will
have the slightest inkling of why and where I have been in my imagination
already before I go and do it for real.

You are right, there is never enough time.

Gavin

At 23:55 08 June 2008, bagmaker wrote:
>
>-
>Anyone have a rough idea of the amount to budget to earn a glider
>certificate?
>
>The glider training closest to me appears to be at this club:
>
>http://www.kpflight.com/coburg.htm-
>
>simply, it will cost you at least $2000
>
>In detail, you added you were married, so $4000, after equal payback to
>the one who cannot be argued with.
>
>In fact, you will get to the point when you want your own glider, after
>having happily spent tens of thousands on:
>
>Fuel and vehicle expenses to and from your club
>accomodation expenses whilst flying, quadruple those costs for the wife
>to accompany you
>beer and food expenses for yourself, your crew and your new friends
>better sunglasses, hats, shoes and clothes
>books, maps, PDAs, software and upgrades
>tow fees, tug pilots beer
>bribe money for officials at contests
>donations to the club to support newbies after you
>
>Yep, tens of thousands of dollars
>
>but you will spend it happily, and by then, gliders will be even
>better, and even more expensive
>
>
>On the up side, when you are rugged up by the day nurse and sipping
>your tea with your new mates, all in wheelchairs at the wrinkly home,
>some 40 years away, one of your comrades will bring up a long
>conversation about how they had always wanted to try gliding.
>
>You will smile, add your many hours of interesting experience in
>gliders to the conversation but they wont ever be able to understand.
>Not ever, their option has passed and words alone cannot explain our
>sport
>You alone will have done it, you alone went the extra step.
>You will be the most content person in the conversation.
>It cost you tens of thousands, you will find the money, trust me.
>
>The cost is not the problem, the lack of time is.
>You have to balance your spare time with the ones you love, your other
>passions and true relaxation.
>One day, like everyone, you will die.
>
>At that time, you will have not done enough gliding
>
>
>bagger
>
>
>
>
>--
>bagmaker
>

Nyal Williams[_2_]

June 9th 08, 06:14 AM

My recommendation to have these items in the log book is because an
extremely well-known examiner looks for these specific items when he
examines a student for a certificate.

One might be well-trained and slide by without these specific entries, but
they will smooth the process and they will also protect the instructor
against future difficulties.

At 03:57 09 June 2008, BT wrote:
>I figured that was what the answer would be.. and yes.. 19..
>but all 19 need not be listed for which flight they occured on. "xxyz
>taught to profiency on flight IAW FAR 61.87 yadayada yada
>That's what a training folder is for.
>Only the endorsement that states that ground (academic) and flight
>training
>of the items in 61.87(c)(l) have been completed.
>SSF had a great sample shown below, also 61.65E had copies of all
>endorsements required, and there are not 19 training endorsements for the

>glider student pilot.
>
>STUDENT PILOT
>
>Aeronautical Knowledge - FAR 61.87(b)
>
>I certify that M _____________ has satisfactorily completed a pre-solo
>written examination as required by FAR 61.87(b) demonstrating knowledge
of
>
>the portions of FAR Part 61 and Part 91 applicable to student pilots,
>airspace rules and procedures, and the flight characteristics and
>operational limitations for a (Glider Type), and that I have reviewed all

>incorrect answers with him.
>
>
>
>Pre-Solo Flight Training - FARs 61.31(j) and §61.87 (c)
>
>(Aerotow)
>
>I certify that M ___________ has received the instruction required by FAR

>61.31(j) and FAR 61.87(c) and (i) in a (Glider Type) and that he has
>satisfactorily accomplished ground and flight training in aerotow
>procedures
>and operations and proficiency therein, has demonstrated proficiency in
>the
>applicable maneuvers and procedures included in FAR 61.87(i), and has
>demonstrated adequate knowledge of flight rules listed in FAR Part 91
and
>is
>competent to make safe solo flights in that glider; provided that each
>such
>flight is carried out when the surface wind (steady or gusting) does not

>exceed ___ kts and the crosswind component does not exceed ___ kts. This

>approval is valid for the ___ days immediately following this endorsement

>and provided such flights are conducted entirely within gliding range of
>the
>takeoff point.
>
>Note: Ground and Self-Launch endorsement samples are found in the
>"Additional Endorsements" section of this publication.
>
>
>
>BT
>
>"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
>> Someone beat me to it, and there are 19 of them -- i goofed.
>>
>> To reiterate: print it out, keep it with your logbook, and urge your
>> instructor to focus on missing items, and to USE THE LANGUAGE OF THE
>CFRs
>> in your logbook.
>>
>> At 23:48 08 June 2008, BT wrote:
>>>
>>>"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
>>>>snip>
>>>>
>>>> That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an
>> instructor
>>>> into your log book before it is legal to solo. The efficiency is to
>>>carry
>>>> that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the
list
>>>in
>>>> front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead
of
>>>> time.
>>>>
>>>> snip>
>>>
>>>Nyal.. would you care to list all 17 items?
>>>
>>>BT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>

Jim Beckman[_2_]

June 9th 08, 01:28 PM

At 21:39 08 June 2008, Alan wrote:
>
> Much the same was true when I got my power license -- flying is
flying.
>
> Does it
>really
>take 15 to 20 flights of dual before solo? What is covered in those,
and
>how
>can one take control of the process to make it more efficient?

The not-very-useful answer is that it takes as long as it
takes. If you're good at it, and catch on fast, it won't
take that long (took me 12 flights, as I recall). If you're
a little slow, it will take longer. Your instructor will know
when you're ready.

Largely, I expect it will depend on how quickly you catch
on to flying on tow - that's the part that is the most different
from flying power. Here's an interesting question that I
was asked during the questioning from the examiner before
I got my rating: Suppose you're flying along in a stable
straight glide, and you pull back on the stick - what happens
to your airspeed? Now suppose you're flying in normal
tow position behind the towplane, and you pull back on
the stick - what happens to your airspeed?

Also, if you've been flying taildraggers, you'll come along
a lot quicker, since you already know why God gave you
feet.

Jim Beckman (NJ)

Tony Verhulst

June 9th 08, 01:51 PM

Alan wrote:
> ... Does it really take 15 to 20 flights of dual before solo?

Pretty much. The airwork comes together pretty quickly but you need to
learn what those pedals on the floor are for. Without that, your tows
will be sloppy, at best. I did a demo flight for an experienced
tail-dragger pilot yesterday. He thought that he knew how to use the
rudder. He was wrong.

Your power instructor probably told you (as mine did) "if you don't like
your approach, go around". Well, guess what? :-) Before you solo you
need to convince your instructor that you can nail the landing every
time. And it's not quite the same as yo do it in power. You vary your
pattern and approach speed based on the wind speed and direction. You
have to anticipate and correct for wind gradients.

There's a lot to learn. It's fun.

Tony V. CFIG

Jim Logajan

June 9th 08, 05:19 PM

"noel.wade" > wrote:
> Charts, learning materials, study guides, etc. will probably add up to
> about $500. It'll happen in $20 - $50 increments, but it adds up
> fast. And there's no such thing as "too much studying" in the world
> of piloting!

Noted.

> BTW for training materials, I'm a big fan of Bob Wander's books. He
> has some great "Package Deals" on his website for around $100 - $150
> that include all the books you need for training and basic soaring
> flight. Good stuff! I'm not associated with him, but like his
> writing and his lecturing style (if you ever get a chance to hear him
> speak, he's pretty good): http://www.bobwander.com

The package deal looks pretty good - but it looks like I'll need to
supplement even that with a current copy of the FAR/AIM, among a couple
other items.

Jim Logajan

June 9th 08, 05:21 PM

Herb > wrote:
> Unless I missed it, none of the previous posts mentioned the club
> initiation fee which can be easily a one-time expense of $500-$1,000
> or more.

The club near me has no initiation fee (they make a point of it on their
web site) - just an annual fee of US$164.

Jim Logajan

June 9th 08, 05:32 PM

"01-- Zero One" > wrote:
> "Jim Logajan" > wrote:
>> ContestID67 > wrote:
>> > However, you need to add in materials, FAA test fees (private),
>> > sweat equity (it is a club after all) and the inevitable cost of
>> > the "I-need- to-buy-my-own-glider" bug.
>>
>> I-need-to-buy-my-own-glider? Better not feed that bug! I haven't even
>> gotten off the ground and the idea of owning a motor glider sounds
>> appealing. That would make the training costs "inconsequential". ;-)
>
> Jim, let the idea of a motorglider go for a while. You need to
> experience the simple pleasures of quiet flight, comraderie, and
> becoming one with your machine.

I should have edited my response better - I really have no plans (or spare
funds) to acquire a motorglider now or anytime in the near future. Since
John mentioned it, I thought I'd respond and mention that the idea has a
certain appeal.

jb92563

June 9th 08, 08:39 PM

On Jun 6, 8:34*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> Anyone have a rough idea of the amount to budget to earn a glider
> certificate?
>
> The glider training closest to me appears to be at this club:
>
> http://www.kpflight.com/coburg.htm

Let see,
25 hours of dual with instructor.
25 hours solo
Club membership Initiation
Regular club dues
Radio
Club T-shirt
Floppy stupid looking hat
Sun Tan Lotion SPF 30+
Log book
Reference books
Exam study guide
Car to get to the field
Gas Money
Bragging rights at the local Pub(Buy a round)
Landout money for phone call & retrieve crews dinner.
Your own glider or a share of one
Upgrades to above glider
Upgrade to a 4 wheel drive car to tow above glider from farmers field
Gliding Holidays away to exotic places
Divorce & Settlement

I concur that about $2,500 should be enough to get started
;-)

Jim Beckman[_2_]

June 10th 08, 10:29 AM

At 16:21 09 June 2008, Jim Logajan wrote:
>
>The club near me has no initiation fee (they make a point of it on their

>web site) - just an annual fee of US$164.

Just out of curiosity, how does a club that operates that way
allow for expansion? For example, if they get a dozen or so
new members, they're going to want another glider, but
they won't have any money to buy it. Unless I'm missing
something obvious here.

What club is it, and what do they fly?

Jim Beckman (NJ)

brtlmj

June 10th 08, 05:03 PM

> Just out of curiosity, how does a club that operates that way
> allow for expansion? For example, if they get a dozen or so
> new members, they're going to want another glider, but
> they won't have any money to buy it.

They will have additional monthly revenue which can be used to finance
equipment. Yes, it will be more complicated than just having cash, but
many potential members would never join if they had to pay a
significant sum of money before they even start.

Bartek

Jim Logajan

June 10th 08, 05:52 PM

Jim Beckman > wrote:
> At 16:21 09 June 2008, Jim Logajan wrote:
>>
>>The club near me has no initiation fee (they make a point of it on their
>
>>web site) - just an annual fee of US$164.
>
> Just out of curiosity, how does a club that operates that way
> allow for expansion? For example, if they get a dozen or so
> new members, they're going to want another glider, but
> they won't have any money to buy it. Unless I'm missing
> something obvious here.
>
> What club is it, and what do they fly?

This is the club:
http://www.kpflight.com/coburg.htm

I am not sure how many planes they have, but mention is made of a Schweizer
SGS 2-33.

I do not know how they manage their fiscal affairs - I'm still waiting for
a response to an e-mail I sent them. I may have to drop by on Thursday or
Saturday.

Cats

June 10th 08, 06:49 PM

On Jun 10, 10:29*am, Jim Beckman > wrote:
> At 16:21 09 June 2008, Jim Logajan wrote:
>
>
>
> >The club near me has no initiation fee (they make a point of it on their
> >web site) - just an annual fee of US$164.
>
> Just out of curiosity, how does a club that operates that way
> allow for expansion? *For example, if they get a dozen or so
> new members, they're going to want another glider, but
> they won't have any money to buy it. *Unless I'm missing
> something obvious here.
>
> What club is it, and what do they fly?
>

My UK club doesn't charge an entry fee, but our number of members is
fairly stable - some come, some go. Also aftyer a while new members
get their own gliders, so the number flying club gliders doesn't
change much.

Jim Beckman[_2_]

June 11th 08, 12:43 PM

At 16:03 10 June 2008, brtlmj wrote:
>> Just out of curiosity, how does a club that operates that way
>> allow for expansion? For example, if they get a dozen or so
>> new members, they're going to want another glider, but
>> they won't have any money to buy it.
>
>They will have additional monthly revenue which can be used to finance
>equipment. Yes, it will be more complicated than just having cash, but
>many potential members would never join if they had to pay a
>significant sum of money before they even start.

But you said they're charging only $164 per year to join
the club. Monthly revenue generally covers monthly
operating costs. What sort of monthly revenue do they
have? They must be charging some pretty steep rates
for either equipment rental or tows.

Jim Beckman (NJ)

brtlmj

June 11th 08, 07:31 PM

On Jun 11, 4:43 am, Jim Beckman > wrote:
> >They will have additional monthly revenue which can be used to finance
> >equipment. Yes, it will be more complicated than just having cash, but
> >many potential members would never join if they had to pay a
> >significant sum of money before they even start.
> But you said they're charging only $164 per year to join
> the club.

First of all, I think you are confusing me with Jim Logajan :-) What I
wrote above was simply my guess - I know nothing about the club in
question.

> Monthly revenue generally covers monthly
> operating costs. What sort of monthly revenue do they
> have? They must be charging some pretty steep rates
> for either equipment rental or tows.

I am not an economist, but I believe that you can put an "equals" sign
between a sum of money now, and a revenue stream in the future. So,
having a monthly fee that covers more than operating costs might allow
a club to charge a low initiation fee.

Cats

June 11th 08, 08:15 PM

On Jun 11, 12:43*pm, Jim Beckman > wrote:
> At 16:03 10 June 2008, brtlmj wrote:
>
> >> Just out of curiosity, how does a club that operates that way
> >> allow for expansion? *For example, if they get a dozen or so
> >> new members, they're going to want another glider, but
> >> they won't have any money to buy it.
>
> >They will have additional monthly revenue which can be used to finance
> >equipment. Yes, it will be more complicated than just having cash, but
> >many potential members would never join if they had to pay a
> >significant sum of money before they even start.
>
> But you said they're charging only $164 per year to join
> the club. *Monthly revenue generally covers monthly
> operating costs. *What sort of monthly revenue do they
> have? *They must be charging some pretty steep rates
> for either equipment rental or tows.
>

But the costs of flying will be paid by those that fly, rather than
being subsidised by 'initiation fees' and so on. My guess is that it
should work out cheaper for someone who flies very little, and more
expensive for someone who flies club gliders a lot.

Jim Logajan

June 11th 08, 08:59 PM

Jim Beckman > wrote:
> But you said they're charging only $164 per year to join
> the club. Monthly revenue generally covers monthly
> operating costs. What sort of monthly revenue do they
> have? They must be charging some pretty steep rates
> for either equipment rental or tows.

Jim, that was me that said the club's annual dues were $164 per year. I
have no idea what the club's operational costs or revenues are. Their rates
are here:

http://www.kpflight.com/coburgmember.htm

The rates seem reasonable, but I'm new to this so my perceptions aren't to
be trusted!

Nyal Williams[_2_]

June 11th 08, 09:58 PM

I note that their revenue includes instructional fees at $30 per hour.
Most clubs of which I am aware do not charge for instruction.

The second glider club I was in had an initiation fee that paid off the
cost of a $900 TG-3. (1958-68). Dues were about $10 per month to pay
administrative costs and hangaring. Tows were bought from an outsider and
there was no rental fee at all.

The theory was that this would encourage members to fly more. Two or
three members profited wildly by flying all the time and splitting tow
fees with guests, or having guests pay the entire tow fee. Those who did
not fly were urged to do so and those that were too busy just dropped out.
People weren't nearly as busy in 1958 as in 2008. It was a cheap way to
build time.

At 19:59 11 June 2008, Jim Logajan wrote:
>Jim Beckman wrote:
>> But you said they're charging only $164 per year to join
>> the club. Monthly revenue generally covers monthly
>> operating costs. What sort of monthly revenue do they
>> have? They must be charging some pretty steep rates
>> for either equipment rental or tows.
>
>Jim, that was me that said the club's annual dues were $164 per year. I

>have no idea what the club's operational costs or revenues are. Their
>rates
>are here:
>
>http://www.kpflight.com/coburgmember.htm
>
>The rates seem reasonable, but I'm new to this so my perceptions aren't
to
>
>be trusted!
>

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

June 11th 08, 10:59 PM

But, since I already own a "Floppy stupid looking hat", I should be way
ahead on the cost curve, right?

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

"jb92563" > wrote in message
...
On Jun 6, 8:34 pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> Anyone have a rough idea of the amount to budget to earn a glider
> certificate?
>
> The glider training closest to me appears to be at this club:
>
> http://www.kpflight.com/coburg.htm

Let see,
25 hours of dual with instructor.
25 hours solo
Club membership Initiation
Regular club dues
Radio
Club T-shirt
Floppy stupid looking hat
Sun Tan Lotion SPF 30+
Log book
Reference books
Exam study guide
Car to get to the field
Gas Money
Bragging rights at the local Pub(Buy a round)
Landout money for phone call & retrieve crews dinner.
Your own glider or a share of one
Upgrades to above glider
Upgrade to a 4 wheel drive car to tow above glider from farmers field
Gliding Holidays away to exotic places
Divorce & Settlement

I concur that about $2,500 should be enough to get started
;-)

Nyal Williams[_2_]

June 12th 08, 01:28 AM

If you have the right hat you don't need no instruction!

At 21:59 11 June 2008, Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
>But, since I already own a "Floppy stupid looking hat", I should be way

>ahead on the cost curve, right?
>
>--
>Geoff
>The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
>remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
>When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>
>"jb92563" wrote in message
...
>On Jun 6, 8:34 pm, Jim Logajan wrote:
>> Anyone have a rough idea of the amount to budget to earn a glider
>> certificate?
>>
>> The glider training closest to me appears to be at this club:
>>
>> http://www.kpflight.com/coburg.htm
>
>Let see,
>25 hours of dual with instructor.
>25 hours solo
>Club membership Initiation
>Regular club dues
>Radio
>Club T-shirt
>Floppy stupid looking hat
>Sun Tan Lotion SPF 30+
>Log book
>Reference books
>Exam study guide
>Car to get to the field
>Gas Money
>Bragging rights at the local Pub(Buy a round)
>Landout money for phone call & retrieve crews dinner.
>Your own glider or a share of one
>Upgrades to above glider
>Upgrade to a 4 wheel drive car to tow above glider from farmers field
>Gliding Holidays away to exotic places
>Divorce & Settlement
>
>I concur that about $2,500 should be enough to get started
>;-)
>
>