Re: The real benefits of high fuel prices

[John Ewing]

"Michael Henry" > wrote in message
node...
> Stealth Pilot wrote:
>
>> the other thing I like about high fuel prices is that the chinese have
>> to pay them as well. that'll slow the buggers down. maybe the jobs
>> will stop being exported over to them in the long run.
>
> That's a pretty archaic view! It is Chinese demand for our natural
> resources which is making the Australian dollar so strong! As Ben Lee said
> "We're all in this together"
>
> I'm of the opinion that high fuel prices are good for another reason: it
> makes alternative fuels more viable. I look forward to the day when we're
> all running aero-diesels burning biofuel. (The current perception by
> consumers that biofuel is responsible for high food prices is rubbish.
> Destruction of native forests for the planting of feedstock is a bigger
> issue. We'll work it out eventually...)

Skip biofuel ... go straight to zero pollution hydrogen powered vehicles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle

http://www.science.org.au/nova/063/063print.htm

John

[Bernd Felsche]

"John Ewing" <none@needed> wrote:
>"Michael Henry" > wrote:
>> Stealth Pilot wrote:

>>> the other thing I like about high fuel prices is that the chinese have
>>> to pay them as well. that'll slow the buggers down. maybe the jobs
>>> will stop being exported over to them in the long run.

>> That's a pretty archaic view! It is Chinese demand for our natural
>> resources which is making the Australian dollar so strong! As Ben Lee said
>> "We're all in this together"

>> I'm of the opinion that high fuel prices are good for another reason: it
>> makes alternative fuels more viable. I look forward to the day when we're
>> all running aero-diesels burning biofuel. (The current perception by
>> consumers that biofuel is responsible for high food prices is rubbish.
>> Destruction of native forests for the planting of feedstock is a bigger
>> issue. We'll work it out eventually...)

>Skip biofuel ... go straight to zero pollution hydrogen powered vehicles

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle
>http://www.science.org.au/nova/063/063print.htm

Zero-pollution? How are you going to get the hydrogen? Safely? Onto
the aircraft?

Hydrogen, unless it's been extracted directly from fossil sources,
is only a storage medium for the energy needed to produce it. And at
that, it's certainly not perfectly efficient.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | Great minds discuss ideas;
X against HTML mail | Average minds discuss events;
/ \ and postings | Small minds discuss people. -- Eleanor Roosevelt

[Peter Smyth]

"John Ewing" <none@needed> wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Henry" > wrote in message
> node...
>> Stealth Pilot wrote:
>>
>>> the other thing I like about high fuel prices is that the chinese have
>>> to pay them as well. that'll slow the buggers down. maybe the jobs
>>> will stop being exported over to them in the long run.
>>
>> That's a pretty archaic view! It is Chinese demand for our natural
>> resources which is making the Australian dollar so strong! As Ben Lee
>> said "We're all in this together"
>>
>> I'm of the opinion that high fuel prices are good for another reason: it
>> makes alternative fuels more viable. I look forward to the day when we're
>> all running aero-diesels burning biofuel. (The current perception by
>> consumers that biofuel is responsible for high food prices is rubbish.
>> Destruction of native forests for the planting of feedstock is a bigger
>> issue. We'll work it out eventually...)
>
> Skip biofuel ... go straight to zero pollution hydrogen powered vehicles
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle
>
> http://www.science.org.au/nova/063/063print.htm
>
> John

Maybe you should read what you posted. Currently the production of hydrogen
for comerical use uses far more energy that a petrol motor.

[John Ewing]

"Bernd Felsche" > wrote in message
...
> "John Ewing" <none@needed> wrote:
>>"Michael Henry" > wrote:
>>> Stealth Pilot wrote:
>
>>>> the other thing I like about high fuel prices is that the chinese have
>>>> to pay them as well. that'll slow the buggers down. maybe the jobs
>>>> will stop being exported over to them in the long run.
>
>>> That's a pretty archaic view! It is Chinese demand for our natural
>>> resources which is making the Australian dollar so strong! As Ben Lee
>>> said
>>> "We're all in this together"
>
>>> I'm of the opinion that high fuel prices are good for another reason: it
>>> makes alternative fuels more viable. I look forward to the day when
>>> we're
>>> all running aero-diesels burning biofuel. (The current perception by
>>> consumers that biofuel is responsible for high food prices is rubbish.
>>> Destruction of native forests for the planting of feedstock is a bigger
>>> issue. We'll work it out eventually...)
>
>>Skip biofuel ... go straight to zero pollution hydrogen powered vehicles
>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle
>>http://www.science.org.au/nova/063/063print.htm
>
> Zero-pollution? How are you going to get the hydrogen?

From water probably using solar cells. Recent developments have
dramatically increased their efficiency, and there is likely to be further
improvements.

Safely? Onto the aircraft?

Safely? Innovative reckoning would suggest liquid hydrogen :)
Hope we are not going to recount the old "hydrogen is too dangerous - look
what happened to the airships"
To be honest I was considering that we'd get surface vehicles converted
before we try aircraft.
I am not claiming it is a proven or fully researched option at the present
time, but it has greater potential than most other alternative energy
sources.

> Hydrogen, unless it's been extracted directly from fossil sources,
> is only a storage medium for the energy needed to produce it. And at
> that, it's certainly not perfectly efficient.

Very few things in life are perfectly efficient.
Sorry - you've lost me. Not sure what your point is.

Cheers,
John


> --
> /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
> \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | Great minds discuss ideas;
> X against HTML mail | Average minds discuss events;
> / \ and postings | Small minds discuss people. -- Eleanor
> Roosevelt

[John Ewing]

"Peter Smyth" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Ewing" <none@needed> wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Michael Henry" > wrote in message
>> node...
>>> Stealth Pilot wrote:
>>>
>>>> the other thing I like about high fuel prices is that the chinese have
>>>> to pay them as well. that'll slow the buggers down. maybe the jobs
>>>> will stop being exported over to them in the long run.
>>>
>>> That's a pretty archaic view! It is Chinese demand for our natural
>>> resources which is making the Australian dollar so strong! As Ben Lee
>>> said "We're all in this together"
>>>
>>> I'm of the opinion that high fuel prices are good for another reason: it
>>> makes alternative fuels more viable. I look forward to the day when
>>> we're all running aero-diesels burning biofuel. (The current perception
>>> by consumers that biofuel is responsible for high food prices is
>>> rubbish. Destruction of native forests for the planting of feedstock is
>>> a bigger issue. We'll work it out eventually...)
>>
>> Skip biofuel ... go straight to zero pollution hydrogen powered vehicles
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle
>>
>> http://www.science.org.au/nova/063/063print.htm
>>
>> John
>
> Maybe you should read what you posted. Currently the production of
> hydrogen for comerical use uses far more energy that a petrol motor.

Maybe I did. Thanks for your other observation. And for your apt
qualification - the word "currently".

Let us hope those Governments with funds available for research divert the
billions they are spending on oil wars into long term viable, sustainable
and pollution-free energy options. I think hydrogen is certainly one to be
considered. Biofuels may have a role as a stop-gap measure.

Cheers,
John

[Peter Smyth]

"John Ewing" <none@needed> wrote in message
u...
>
> "Peter Smyth" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "John Ewing" <none@needed> wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Michael Henry" > wrote in message
>>> node...
>>>> Stealth Pilot wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> the other thing I like about high fuel prices is that the chinese have
>>>>> to pay them as well. that'll slow the buggers down. maybe the jobs
>>>>> will stop being exported over to them in the long run.
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty archaic view! It is Chinese demand for our natural
>>>> resources which is making the Australian dollar so strong! As Ben Lee
>>>> said "We're all in this together"
>>>>
>>>> I'm of the opinion that high fuel prices are good for another reason:
>>>> it makes alternative fuels more viable. I look forward to the day when
>>>> we're all running aero-diesels burning biofuel. (The current perception
>>>> by consumers that biofuel is responsible for high food prices is
>>>> rubbish. Destruction of native forests for the planting of feedstock is
>>>> a bigger issue. We'll work it out eventually...)
>>>
>>> Skip biofuel ... go straight to zero pollution hydrogen powered vehicles
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle
>>>
>>> http://www.science.org.au/nova/063/063print.htm
>>>
>>> John
>>
>> Maybe you should read what you posted. Currently the production of
>> hydrogen for comerical use uses far more energy that a petrol motor.
>
> Maybe I did. Thanks for your other observation. And for your apt
> qualification - the word "currently".
>
> Let us hope those Governments with funds available for research divert the
> billions they are spending on oil wars into long term viable, sustainable
> and pollution-free energy options. I think hydrogen is certainly one to
> be considered. Biofuels may have a role as a stop-gap measure.
>
> Cheers,
> John
A Uni has been doing intense study in using solar panels to produce
Hydrogen. They can in very small amounts. very small at this stage

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"John Ewing" <none@needed> wrote in
u:

>
> "Bernd Felsche" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "John Ewing" <none@needed> wrote:
>>>"Michael Henry" > wrote:
>>>> Stealth Pilot wrote:
>>
>>>>> the other thing I like about high fuel prices is that the chinese
>>>>> have to pay them as well. that'll slow the buggers down. maybe the
>>>>> jobs will stop being exported over to them in the long run.
>>
>>>> That's a pretty archaic view! It is Chinese demand for our natural
>>>> resources which is making the Australian dollar so strong! As Ben
>>>> Lee said
>>>> "We're all in this together"
>>
>>>> I'm of the opinion that high fuel prices are good for another
>>>> reason: it makes alternative fuels more viable. I look forward to
>>>> the day when we're
>>>> all running aero-diesels burning biofuel. (The current perception
>>>> by consumers that biofuel is responsible for high food prices is
>>>> rubbish. Destruction of native forests for the planting of
>>>> feedstock is a bigger issue. We'll work it out eventually...)
>>
>>>Skip biofuel ... go straight to zero pollution hydrogen powered
>>>vehicles
>>
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle
>>>http://www.science.org.au/nova/063/063print.htm
>>
>> Zero-pollution? How are you going to get the hydrogen?
>
> From water probably using solar cells. Recent developments have
> dramatically increased their efficiency, and there is likely to be
> further improvements.
>
> Safely? Onto the aircraft?
>
> Safely? Innovative reckoning would suggest liquid hydrogen :)


Too heavy. Unless there's been some breakthrough in thermally lined
tanks it should be as a gas and that means a LOT of volume.

> Hope we are not going to recount the old "hydrogen is too dangerous -
> look what happened to the airships"
> To be honest I was considering that we'd get surface vehicles
> converted before we try aircraft.
> I am not claiming it is a proven or fully researched option at the
> present time, but it has greater potential than most other alternative
> energy sources.

It's a good idea to try and deveop it. There are several vehicles for
ale that will run on hydrogen right now. Morgan has just built a new
fuel cell car to go along with it's already available H2 powered IC car
so it's making a small start anyway.
>
>> Hydrogen, unless it's been extracted directly from fossil sources,
>> is only a storage medium for the energy needed to produce it. And at
>> that, it's certainly not perfectly efficient.
>
> Very few things in life are perfectly efficient.
> Sorry - you've lost me. Not sure what your point is.

Well, it is pretty efficient on paper, but it's certainly not all that
practical for aircraft. You either need a massive amount in volume in
gas form or al the complexity of liquid H2. NASA flew a Musketeer on
lquid H2 in the 70s and it worked fine, but the tanks were quite heavy.
I think it was less an experiment in an H2 powered airplane than it was
some sort of research for space flight anyway.

Bertie