ClearNav too big?

[brianDG303]

I think the ClearNav designers may have missed the mark a bit, I'm
trying to figure out why they made the thing so big. In flying with a
PDA I have often wanted the screen to be brighter, but never bigger;
the other option I would pay for is to have the PDA controls on the
stick. I fly a DG and I think the DG panel is pretty standard across
their line. A scale drawing can be downloaded from their site which I
did, then I sized up to full scale and imported it into a CAD system.
After drafting a ClearNav screen and the other instruments I was able
to slide them around, trying to find a configuration that would work.
In a DG panel I just couldn't get it to work. I think in the long run
these devices need to be designed with at least one dimension (height
or width) compatible with traditional gear (80mm!). I suspect that
there was an available screen that was pressed into service and drove
the size.

[Raphael Warshaw]

On Jun 9, 1:03*pm, brianDG303 > wrote:
> I think the ClearNav designers may have missed the mark a bit, I'm
How old did you say you were???

Ray Warshaw
1LK

> trying to figure out why they made the thing so big. In flying with a
> PDA I have often wanted the screen to be brighter, but never bigger;
> the other option I would pay for is to have the PDA controls on the
> stick. I fly a DG and I think the DG panel is pretty standard across
> their line. A scale drawing can be downloaded from their site which I
> did, then I sized up to full scale and imported it into a CAD system.
> After drafting a ClearNav screen and the other instruments I was able
> to slide them around, trying to find a configuration that would work.
> In a DG panel I just couldn't get it to work. I think in the long run
> these devices need to be designed with at least one dimension (height
> or width) compatible with traditional gear (80mm!). I suspect that
> there was an available screen that was pressed into service and drove
> the size.

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

brianDG303 wrote:
> I think the ClearNav designers may have missed the mark a bit, I'm
> trying to figure out why they made the thing so big. In flying with a
> PDA I have often wanted the screen to be brighter, but never bigger;
> the other option I would pay for is to have the PDA controls on the
> stick. I fly a DG and I think the DG panel is pretty standard across
> their line. A scale drawing can be downloaded from their site which I
> did, then I sized up to full scale and imported it into a CAD system.
> After drafting a ClearNav screen and the other instruments I was able
> to slide them around, trying to find a configuration that would work.
> In a DG panel I just couldn't get it to work. I think in the long run
> these devices need to be designed with at least one dimension (height
> or width) compatible with traditional gear (80mm!). I suspect that
> there was an available screen that was pressed into service and drove
> the size.

Daylight visible displays are only available in a limited number of
sizes. While there are displays in the 3.5" size range that are better
than the typical transflective PDA screen, the brightest screens start
at a bit larger, hence the size of the ClearNav. If anyone knows of a
supplier of bright (500+ nit) 3.5" LED backlit displays, please disclose 8^)

Marc

[BB]

Putting it on a small size ASW panel is similarly challenging -- along
with vario, radio, transponder, etc. The ram mounts do a lot to add
wiggle room. I put the clear-nav on a short ram mount. It blocks the
view of the compass (useless anyway) and backup vario (turned off
anyway). Then there was plenty of room for everything.

> the other option I would pay for is to have the PDA controls on the stick.

You could glue the clearnav remote to the stick. Realistically, I like
having a little remote that I work with my left hand. (SN10 remote
works similarly well). Nothing is as fun as trying to aim at a
touchscreen while rocketing down the ridge. No, wait, rebooting said
PDA while rocketing down the ridge -- that's more fun.

John Cochrane

[5Z]

On Jun 9, 1:20 pm, BB > wrote:
> I put the clear-nav on a short ram mount. It blocks the
> view of the compass (useless anyway) and backup vario (turned off
> anyway). Then there was plenty of room for everything.

I think that's the way to go with something like this. By placing the
ClearNav ON the panel and not IN the panel, it can at best block some
other instruments' mounting screws, and at worst some or all of a less
used instrument. For example, I use the altimeter in my 302, and only
cross check the mechanical. Fuses and connectors can also be placed
behind the ClearNav.

-Tom

[Papa3]

On Jun 9, 3:20*pm, BB > wrote:

> You could glue the clearnav remote to the stick. Realistically, I like
> having a little remote that I work with my left hand. (SN10 remote
> works similarly well). Nothing is as fun as trying to aim at a
> touchscreen while rocketing down the ridge. No, wait, rebooting said
> PDA while rocketing down the ridge -- that's more fun.
>
> John Cochrane

The Clearnav will also have the option for a stick mounted remote
which incorporates a PTT switch plus all of the buttons required to
operate the instrument - a Coolie Hat setup.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jun 9, 8:42 pm, Bob Gibbons > wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 10:35:37 -0700, Marc Ramsey
>
> > wrote:
>
> ... text deleted ....
>
>
>
> >Daylight visible displays are only available in a limited number of
> >sizes. While there are displays in the 3.5" size range that are better
> >than the typical transflective PDA screen, the brightest screens start
> >at a bit larger, hence the size of the ClearNav. If anyone knows of a
> >supplier of bright (500+ nit) 3.5" LED backlit displays, please disclose 8^)
>
> >Marc
>
> How about the 3" x 5" 200 DPI (800 x 600) monochrome display from
> Eink, they make the display for the Sony eBook and the Amazon Kindle.
> It's not a backlit LED, but its very daylight visible and likely
> better for our cockpit applications.
>
> Seehttp://www.eink.com/kits/broadsheetspec_sheet_041408.pdf
>
> Bob

e-ink displays are for static images and are not suitable for the
moving part of a moving map display.

This has been covered on r.a.s. before.

Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jun 11, 7:46*pm, Bob Gibbons > wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:52:46 -0700 (PDT), Darryl Ramm
>
> > wrote:
>
> ... text deleted ...
>
>
>
> >e-ink displays are for static images and are not suitable for the
> >moving part of a moving map display.
>
> >This has been covered on r.a.s. before.
>
> >Darryl
>
> Well, I guess that settles it, r.a.s says it can't be done :-)
>
> Seriously, if you wanted video rate update, I agree with you, current
> eink displays are not suitable.
>
> But for our relatively simple moving map displays, the current
> generation of eink displays are a viable candidate. One key is that
> most of the map information is static, and that which does move
> typically undergoes only a translation.
>
> See the following comments in an article quoting Eink.
>
> http://papergadgets.blogspot.com/2007/11/color-e-ink-and-video-expect...
>
> Bob

Yes I thought the r.a.s. thing would get a rise.

Current generation of e-ink and similar displays really are too slow
for moving maps. Yes future devices are another story. As for images
things just translating slightly. That does not help the fundamental
refresh problem. It would reduce apparent smearing in some cases but
you may also get Kindle like display flashes on each refresh, ouch.
Believe me you don't want to be trying to run SeeYou on a Kindle. When
SeeYou is not just sitting there doing it's thing the UI needs to be
pretty snappy. Popping up and scrolling down waypoint lists, select
tasks, changing settings, etc. All well outside current e-ink
displays, and I don't think you can fundamentally develop a new UI to
exploit these displays that has a lot less UI interaction. Of course
in future this technology could be great. I like color but being able
to see the display at all in bright light (the umm small problem with
current PDAs) would indeed be nice.

Darryl

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

Darryl Ramm wrote:
> Yes I thought the r.a.s. thing would get a rise.
>
> Current generation of e-ink and similar displays really are too slow
> for moving maps. Yes future devices are another story. As for images
> things just translating slightly. That does not help the fundamental
> refresh problem. It would reduce apparent smearing in some cases but
> you may also get Kindle like display flashes on each refresh, ouch.
> Believe me you don't want to be trying to run SeeYou on a Kindle. When
> SeeYou is not just sitting there doing it's thing the UI needs to be
> pretty snappy. Popping up and scrolling down waypoint lists, select
> tasks, changing settings, etc. All well outside current e-ink
> displays, and I don't think you can fundamentally develop a new UI to
> exploit these displays that has a lot less UI interaction. Of course
> in future this technology could be great. I like color but being able
> to see the display at all in bright light (the umm small problem with
> current PDAs) would indeed be nice.

One wouldn't want to run SeeYou, but I've seen perfectly usable chart
plot style moving maps on e-ink displays. Many moons ago I used to
build UIs for ancient technology display technologies (Tektronix storage
tubes, early plasma displays) the had the same issue of allowing one to
set individual pixels, but having to erase all at once. These included,
among other things, real-time tactical information displays that were
every bit as interactive as SeeYou. It just took a different UI mindset...

Marc

[[email protected]]

On 13 Jun, 03:09, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > Yes I thought the r.a.s. thing would get a rise.
>
> > Current generation of e-ink and similar displays really are too slow
> > for moving maps. Yes future devices are another story. As for images
> > things just translating slightly. That does not help the fundamental
> > refresh problem. It would reduce apparent smearing in some cases but
> > you may also get Kindle like display flashes on each refresh, ouch.
> > Believe me you don't want to be trying to run SeeYou on a Kindle. When
> > SeeYou is not just sitting there doing it's thing the UI needs to be
> > pretty snappy. Popping up and scrolling down waypoint lists, select
> > tasks, changing settings, etc. All well outside current e-ink
> > displays, and I don't think you can fundamentally develop a new UI to
> > exploit these displays that has a lot less UI interaction. Of course
> > in future this technology could be great. I like color but being able
> > to see the display at all in bright light (the umm small problem with
> > current PDAs) would indeed be nice.
>
> One wouldn't want to run SeeYou, but I've seen perfectly usable chart
> plot style moving maps on e-ink displays. *Many moons ago I used to
> build UIs for ancient technology display technologies (Tektronix storage
> tubes, early plasma displays) the had the same issue of allowing one to
> set individual pixels, but having to erase all at once. *These included,
> among other things, real-time tactical information displays that were
> every bit as interactive as SeeYou. *It just took a different UI mindset....
>
> Marc

Have we given up waiting on OLED display PDA's - and what about
Unipixel TMOS displays??