Parallel grass/paved runways

[danlj]

Dear Group,

While I am the only soaring pilot at my local field (KLUM), the
occasional glider drops in when the lift gives out. A dozen years ago
I had formed a little club, and we used the 50-ft grass overruns and
the 100-ft-wide grass margins of the runway continually, to avoid
conflicts with power traffic. That's ancient history now.

I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
for recreation and training, with proper markings.

I think it would help my case if I can present a list of airports
where glider/power operations are routinely conducted on close-
together parallel runways, in case there is any foot-dragging (as
always seems to happen when change is suggested).

Please email either a response to this list, or privately to me -
drdanATwwt.net - about any such cooperative gliderport/airport, and
whether you fly there or simple know of it (in which case I'll look up
the manager).

All that's needed is the ICAO airport designator, but details are of
course welcome, especially if any FAA concerns had been expressed
regarding instrument-approach limitations.

Thanks very much.

Dan Johnson

[noel.wade]

Dan -

KAWO (Arlington, WA - about 1 hour N of Seattle, WA).

Our local club is based at this airport. 100+ members, easily 20+
active pilots. We have operations every weekend, and sometimes on
weekdays. 20 - 30 launches per day.

Our "strip" is actually 3 grass areas between the paved main runway
and the main taxiway. Each grass area is about 1800' long and has a
paved taxiway at each end running 90 degrees to the grass (these are
what connect the runway to the taxiway). We use the middle grass area
for takeoffs, and then one of the other grass areas (based on wind
direction) for landings.

KAWO is a pretty busy GA airport. Not much jet traffic, but quite a
variety of homebuilts, antiques, acrobatic planes, formation-flying RV
groups (the famous "Blackjack Squardon"), and helicopters.

Glider patterns are all to the east of the field, and powered traffic
always does patterns to the west of the field. Makes for interesting
base legs, sometimes with gliders and powered traffic nose-to-nose;
but it hasn't ever created any conflicts that I'm aware of.

Only the helicopters seem to cause problems! We've had some scary
close-calls with them (cutting into our pattern, flying across the
grass takeoff area without looking, and blowing their rotorwash all
over glider grids and assembly areas)... but the fixed-wing folks all
seem to play nice together without any issues.

Good luck,

--Noel

[noel.wade]

A quick P.S....

I realize I might have made it sound like our grass is immediately
adjacent to the runway; which would make the base-to-final a lot
closer / less-safe with both powered and glider traffic
simultaneously. Our mowed grass strip is separated from the paved
runway edge by about 150' of tall grass. So there's some horizontal
separation when aircraft are coming in on parallel final approaches.

--Noel

[Tuno]

Dan,

Sun Valley Airport (A20), in Arizona, uses the area adjacent to its
main runway for glider ops.

~ted/n2O

[[email protected]]

On Jun 17, 6:04*pm, danlj > wrote:
> Dear Group,
>
> While I am the only soaring pilot at my local field (KLUM), the
> occasional glider drops in when the lift gives out. A dozen years ago
> I had formed a little club, and we used the 50-ft grass overruns and
> the 100-ft-wide grass margins of the runway continually, to avoid
> conflicts with power traffic. That's ancient history now.
>
> I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
> request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
> paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
> for recreation and training, with proper markings.
>
> I think it would help my case if I can present a list of airports
> where glider/power operations are routinely conducted on close-
> together parallel runways, in case there is any foot-dragging (as
> always seems to happen when change is suggested).
>
> Please email either a response to this list, or privately to me -
> drdanATwwt.net - about any such cooperative gliderport/airport, and
> whether you fly there or simple know of it (in which case I'll look up
> the manager).
>
> All that's needed is the ICAO airport designator, but details are of
> course welcome, especially if any FAA concerns had been expressed
> regarding instrument-approach limitations.
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> Dan Johnson

Valley Soaring Club in Middletown NY. (06N)50 yr of safe parallel ops
on grass adjoining paved runway.
UH

[Papa3]

On Jun 17, 6:04*pm, danlj > wrote:
> Dear Group,
>
> While I am the only soaring pilot at my local field (KLUM), the
> occasional glider drops in when the lift gives out. A dozen years ago
> I had formed a little club, and we used the 50-ft grass overruns and
> the 100-ft-wide grass margins of the runway continually, to avoid
> conflicts with power traffic. That's ancient history now.
>
> I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
> request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
> paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
> for recreation and training, with proper markings.
>
> I think it would help my case if I can present a list of airports
> where glider/power operations are routinely conducted on close-
> together parallel runways, in case there is any foot-dragging (as
> always seems to happen when change is suggested).
>
> Please email either a response to this list, or privately to me -
> drdanATwwt.net - about any such cooperative gliderport/airport, and
> whether you fly there or simple know of it (in which case I'll look up
> the manager).
>
> All that's needed is the ICAO airport designator, but details are of
> course welcome, especially if any FAA concerns had been expressed
> regarding instrument-approach limitations.
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> Dan Johnson

In addition to the others, I can think of:

1N7: Blairstown airport NJ
KELM: Elmira/Corning airport NY
Dansville NY...

Come to think of it, I bet you a significant percentage of glider
operations which don't own their own field have this sort of setup...

[[email protected]]

On Jun 17, 5:04*pm, danlj > wrote:
> Dear Group,
>
> While I am the only soaring pilot at my local field (KLUM), the
> occasional glider drops in when the lift gives out. A dozen years ago
> I had formed a little club, and we used the 50-ft grass overruns and
> the 100-ft-wide grass margins of the runway continually, to avoid
> conflicts with power traffic. That's ancient history now.
>
> I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
> request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
> paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
> for recreation and training, with proper markings.
>
> I think it would help my case if I can present a list of airports
> where glider/power operations are routinely conducted on close-
> together parallel runways, in case there is any foot-dragging (as
> always seems to happen when change is suggested).
>
> Please email either a response to this list, or privately to me -
> drdanATwwt.net - about any such cooperative gliderport/airport, and
> whether you fly there or simple know of it (in which case I'll look up
> the manager).
>
> All that's needed is the ICAO airport designator, but details are of
> course welcome, especially if any FAA concerns had been expressed
> regarding instrument-approach limitations.
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> Dan Johnson

Hartford Municipal Airport (HXF), Hartford, Wisconsin. Parallel grass
and asphalt (11/29) and shared grass runway (18/36). Gliders fly right
pattern, powered aircraft fly left. Lots of room for staging and
ground operations. Beautiful place to fly.

Dave

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

At 22:04 17 June 2008, danlj wrote:
<snip>
>I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
>request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
>paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
>for recreation and training, with proper markings.
<snip>

If you look into the CFRs about parallel runways you will find that they
must be separated by 750ft, IIRC. This means you cannot "formally
designate" a second runway with markings, etc. at your site.

There are lots of airports where gliders operate from the grass alongside
the paved runway, but none of these are designated as separate runways.
You can continue to operate as you and the others do with a local
understanding of the procedures.

This means you have technically one runway and one approach path with the
pilot having the choice of where to touch down. If I understand parallel
runways correctly, they allow constant simultaneous approaches without
regard for the traffic on either side, and the traffic is governed by a
tower. At an airport with no tower and landing areas closer than 750(?)ft
along side, the traffic will have to sequence as for a single runway. Your
situation with the local commission might well be worsened if you pursue
trying to get a formal designation and as a result the commission looks
carefully into the regulations.

[jchutch]

On Jun 17, 11:58 pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
> At 22:04 17 June 2008, danlj wrote:
> <snip>
>
> If you look into the CFRs about parallel runways you will find that they
> must be separated by 750ft, IIRC. This means you cannot "formally
> designate" a second runway with markings, etc. at your site.
>
> There are lots of airports where gliders operate from the grass alongside
> the paved runway, but none of these are designated as separate runways.

3B3, in Sterling, Mass., home of the very active (150+ members)
Greater Boston Soaring Club and MIT Soaring Association, is set up
this way. The parallel grass strip is well maintained, but I do not
believe it is listed as a separate runway. Landing pilots sequence,
and when announcing on CTAF, we simply state "taking the grass." If
power traffic is on final, launches from the grid are definitely put
on hold

[Bullwinkle]

On 6/18/08 7:52 AM, in article
, "jchutch"
> wrote:

> On Jun 17, 11:58 pm, Nyal Williams > wrote:
>> At 22:04 17 June 2008, danlj wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>> If you look into the CFRs about parallel runways you will find that they
>> must be separated by 750ft, IIRC. This means you cannot "formally
>> designate" a second runway with markings, etc. at your site.
>>
>> There are lots of airports where gliders operate from the grass alongside
>> the paved runway, but none of these are designated as separate runways.
>
> 3B3, in Sterling, Mass., home of the very active (150+ members)
> Greater Boston Soaring Club and MIT Soaring Association, is set up
> this way. The parallel grass strip is well maintained, but I do not
> believe it is listed as a separate runway. Landing pilots sequence,
> and when announcing on CTAF, we simply state "taking the grass." If
> power traffic is on final, launches from the grid are definitely put
> on hold

I don't know if this is still the case, but Stennis International in Bay St.
Louis, MS used to have a grass glider runway alongside the main concrete
runway. That was 15 or 20 years ago, and I have no idea if there is even a
glider operation there now.

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

Yes, we operate this way at our airport. The original poster was
considering "formal" designation with separate markings, etc. That
would involve the FAA, paper work filing, a site visit possibly, and
definitely a refusal. All of that together with a refusal would likely
cause a municipal airport authority to become frightened and stop the
operation.



At 13:52 18 June 2008, jchutch wrote:
>On Jun 17, 11:58 pm, Nyal Williams wrote:
>> At 22:04 17 June 2008, danlj wrote:
>>
>>
>> If you look into the CFRs about parallel runways you will find that
they
>> must be separated by 750ft, IIRC. This means you cannot "formally
>> designate" a second runway with markings, etc. at your site.
>>
>> There are lots of airports where gliders operate from the grass
>alongside
>> the paved runway, but none of these are designated as separate
runways.
>
>3B3, in Sterling, Mass., home of the very active (150+ members)
>Greater Boston Soaring Club and MIT Soaring Association, is set up
>this way. The parallel grass strip is well maintained, but I do not
>believe it is listed as a separate runway. Landing pilots sequence,
>and when announcing on CTAF, we simply state "taking the grass." If
>power traffic is on final, launches from the grid are definitely put
>on hold
>

[jb92563]

The Hemet-Ryan public airport KHMT in CA opperates with a grass
landing area adjacent to one of the the asphalt runways.

They do takeoff from the asphalt however so its not exactly as you
describe.

They do have to sequence with other traffic since there is not enough
separation between the Asphalt and the grass.

I think the regular power traffic stick to the south runway since it
is adjacent to the GA hangers and parking where the gliders,
Ultralights and a few others use the North runway since it is close
to their hangers, parking etc.

There is a history here of the Airports development.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemet-Ryan_Airport

Lake Elsinore, CA Pvt airport CA89 has 2 parrallel runways with
several hundred feet separation, one for gliders and one for a busy
Skydive operation and we have strick adherence to specific patterns
and we never have any problems

[Barny]

Dan, Ionia County Municipal (KY70) in Michigan operate parallel.
Glider strip is directly adjacent to active, only separated by the
lights. Power traffic is light enough that it works out.
Adrian County Michigan KADG (Adrian Soaring Club) also operates
parallel to one of multiple hard surfaces.
~Barny

[Dave Newill]

It is possible to put the grass runway as a "glider operating area" on
the Airport Master Plan. This is usually filed with the FSDO and then
becomes the approved plan for that field - there can of course be
local planning comnission issuel that need to be dealt with.

[BT]

Wrong answer... you are relating that to IFR runways..
Our runways are paved, painted and 300ft centerline to centerline.. 0L7

BT

"Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
...
> At 22:04 17 June 2008, danlj wrote:
> <snip>
>>I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
>>request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
>>paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
>>for recreation and training, with proper markings.
> <snip>
>
> If you look into the CFRs about parallel runways you will find that they
> must be separated by 750ft, IIRC. This means you cannot "formally
> designate" a second runway with markings, etc. at your site.
>
> There are lots of airports where gliders operate from the grass alongside
> the paved runway, but none of these are designated as separate runways.
> You can continue to operate as you and the others do with a local
> understanding of the procedures.
>
> This means you have technically one runway and one approach path with the
> pilot having the choice of where to touch down. If I understand parallel
> runways correctly, they allow constant simultaneous approaches without
> regard for the traffic on either side, and the traffic is governed by a
> tower. At an airport with no tower and landing areas closer than 750(?)ft
> along side, the traffic will have to sequence as for a single runway.
> Your
> situation with the local commission might well be worsened if you pursue
> trying to get a formal designation and as a result the commission looks
> carefully into the regulations.
>
>

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

Where is this airport?

At 03:27 19 June 2008, BT wrote:
>Wrong answer... you are relating that to IFR runways..
>Our runways are paved, painted and 300ft centerline to centerline.. 0L7
>
>BT
>
>"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
>> At 22:04 17 June 2008, danlj wrote:
>>
>>>I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
>>>request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
>>>paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
>>>for recreation and training, with proper markings.
>>
>>
>> If you look into the CFRs about parallel runways you will find that
they
>> must be separated by 750ft, IIRC. This means you cannot "formally
>> designate" a second runway with markings, etc. at your site.
>>
>> There are lots of airports where gliders operate from the grass
>alongside
>> the paved runway, but none of these are designated as separate
runways.
>> You can continue to operate as you and the others do with a local
>> understanding of the procedures.
>>
>> This means you have technically one runway and one approach path with
>the
>> pilot having the choice of where to touch down. If I understand
parallel
>> runways correctly, they allow constant simultaneous approaches without
>> regard for the traffic on either side, and the traffic is governed by
a
>> tower. At an airport with no tower and landing areas closer than
>750(?)ft
>> along side, the traffic will have to sequence as for a single runway.
>> Your
>> situation with the local commission might well be worsened if you
pursue
>> trying to get a formal designation and as a result the commission
looks
>> carefully into the regulations.
>>
>>
>
>
>

[BT]

0L7, Jean NV
20R/02L, 4500 x 75, paved, lighted, traffic pattern on the west side of the
field
20L/02R, 3500 x 60, paved, no lights, traffic pattern on the east side of
the field
Infield to the east side of 20L/02R is graded level with the runway for
rolling clear and alternate landing areas.
This runway was designed for glider use but can be used by all aircraft.

You can look it up on Google Earth and measure it.
The glider club is on the east side of the airport.

BT

"Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
...
> Where is this airport?
>
> At 03:27 19 June 2008, BT wrote:
>>Wrong answer... you are relating that to IFR runways..
>>Our runways are paved, painted and 300ft centerline to centerline.. 0L7
>>
>>BT
>>
>>"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
>>> At 22:04 17 June 2008, danlj wrote:
>>>
>>>>I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
>>>>request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
>>>>paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
>>>>for recreation and training, with proper markings.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you look into the CFRs about parallel runways you will find that
> they
>>> must be separated by 750ft, IIRC. This means you cannot "formally
>>> designate" a second runway with markings, etc. at your site.
>>>
>>> There are lots of airports where gliders operate from the grass
>>alongside
>>> the paved runway, but none of these are designated as separate
> runways.
>>> You can continue to operate as you and the others do with a local
>>> understanding of the procedures.
>>>
>>> This means you have technically one runway and one approach path with
>>the
>>> pilot having the choice of where to touch down. If I understand
> parallel
>>> runways correctly, they allow constant simultaneous approaches without
>>> regard for the traffic on either side, and the traffic is governed by
> a
>>> tower. At an airport with no tower and landing areas closer than
>>750(?)ft
>>> along side, the traffic will have to sequence as for a single runway.
>>> Your
>>> situation with the local commission might well be worsened if you
> pursue
>>> trying to get a formal designation and as a result the commission
> looks
>>> carefully into the regulations.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>

[Roger Worden]

KHMT has parallel asphalt runways, one wide/long one for all power traffic,
and one short/narrow one exclusively for glider operations. I've never seen
the ultralights take off from the small one, but they could. One or two
motorgliders routinely take off and land on the big runway.

Most club and student glider landings are in the dirt area between the two
runways (it's "grass" for about one week out of the year), but some tour and
private gliders land on the small asphalt one if traffic permits.

There is no sequencing of glider and power traffic that I am aware of. We
frequently are on parallel final approaches with power planes. Glider
patterns are on the north side, and power patterns are on the south side.
The power pilots might choose to delay or go around if they're uncomfortable
landing at the same time as a glider, but it's never been mentioned on the
radio.


"jb92563" > wrote in message
...
> The Hemet-Ryan public airport KHMT in CA opperates with a grass
> landing area adjacent to one of the the asphalt runways.
>
> They do takeoff from the asphalt however so its not exactly as you
> describe.
>
> They do have to sequence with other traffic since there is not enough
> separation between the Asphalt and the grass.
>
> I think the regular power traffic stick to the south runway since it
> is adjacent to the GA hangers and parking where the gliders,
> Ultralights and a few others use the North runway since it is close
> to their hangers, parking etc.
>
> There is a history here of the Airports development.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemet-Ryan_Airport
>
> Lake Elsinore, CA Pvt airport CA89 has 2 parrallel runways with
> several hundred feet separation, one for gliders and one for a busy
> Skydive operation and we have strick adherence to specific patterns
> and we never have any problems
>