Emergency Landing-Engine DEAD

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
been on many such strips worldwide.
So, what do you do?

[Kloudy via AviationKB.com]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
>So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
>this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on.
>So, what do you do?

Fly as far into the crash as possible.

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

[Blueskies]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
...
> So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
> this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
> passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
> I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
> been on many such strips worldwide.
> So, what do you do?

Land on it?

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
> So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
> this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
> passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
> I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
> been on many such strips worldwide.
> So, what do you do?
I hate to second guess another pilot who was there and actually had the
accident, but depending on where he was when he lost the engine, my
initial question would be why he crashed at all having a 2000 foot grass
strip to land on. I'm puzzled. If he had any time at all to plan a dead
engine approach into such a strip, he should have made it in there with
no issues at all with a Bo.

--
Dudley Henriques

[BT]

> I hate to second guess another pilot who was there and actually had the
> accident, but depending on where he was when he lost the engine, my
> initial question would be why he crashed at all having a 2000 foot grass
> strip to land on. I'm puzzled. If he had any time at all to plan a dead
> engine approach into such a strip, he should have made it in there with no
> issues at all with a Bo.
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques

Agreed.. did he land short because he did not have final glide to the field
or flew to wide a base to final turn?
Or did he land long because he screwed up his planning for final glide,
turned base too early could not get it down.

BT

[Vaughn Simon]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
...
> So, what do you do?

Slow it down to best glide and then do the very best you can from there. I
am also a glider pilot but if the noise suddenly stopped on my Cezzna I would be
in that situation for the very first time. I would hope I could do better, but
you won't get me to speak badly of someone who blew a dead stick approach to a
2000' runway. Hell, I have had to go around more than once after screwing up an
ordinary approach.

Vaughn

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:44:52 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> wrote in
>:

>So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
>this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
>passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
>I've been on that strip many many times


http://www.al.com/press-register/stories/index.ssf?/base/news/1213607721238040.xml&coll=3
Three people aboard plane survive crash landing
Mechanical trouble forces pilot to set aircraft down on private
airstrip in Creola

Mechanical trouble forced the pilot of a small airplane to make an
emergency crash landing Sunday morning on a private airstrip in
Creola, according to police.

The impact peeled back one of the Beechcraft S35's wings and
smashed its nose, knocking off its engine, which came to a rest on
the grass airstrip about 50 feet away from the airplane.

Despite the extensive damage to the plane, authorities said the
pilot and his two passengers — his wife and stepmother — suffered
only minor injuries. They were taken to the University of South
Alabama Medical Center. ...

Patsy Buffkin, who owns the small airfield in rural east Creola
with her husband, saw the plane come in while looking out the
window of their home.

"I thought, 'Oh look, a plane is landing,'" she said. "The next
thing I know, his left wing hits the ground, he bounces and the
engine flies off." ...

Lou Buffkin, a pilot himself for more than 40 years, arrived a
moment later to find the pilot walking around the airfield and his
wife complaining of back pain.

"His wife had her forehead opened up pretty good. It looked like
she hit the dash," Buffkin said. "But she was more complaining
that her back hurt." ...

Gouges in the dirt made by the plane's left wing start near the
very beginning of the runway, only about 100 feet from a metal
fence marking the edge of the airfield's property.

Judging by the markings made by the crash, the plane barely made
it to the runway, Buffkin said.

"I'd be surprised if he didn't rake the trees" as he was coming
in, Buffkin said.

The pilot told Buffkin that he had been forced to make the
emergency landing after his plane lost power a few miles away from
the Creola strip but well short of the pilot's destination of Bay
Minette.

"I'm not sure how he found us," Buffkin said, but if he hadn't,
"they would have pulled three dead bodies out of that plane.

"Everything out (past the Creola airstrip) is pretty much just
swamp. There wouldn't have been any survivors. Trees are mighty
unforgiving."



Preliminary FAA report:

http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/preliminary_data/events02/media/04_83LP.txt

************************************************** ******************************
** Report created 6/17/2008 Record 4 **

************************************************** ******************************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 83LP Make/Model: BE35 Description: 35
Bonanza
Date: 06/15/2008 Time: 1448

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Destroyed

LOCATION
City: CREOLA State: AL Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT CRASHED ON APPROACH, CREOLA, AL

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
# Pass: 2 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:

WEATHER: METAR KMOB 151356Z VRB0310SM FEW015 SCT090 25/21 A2999

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Approach Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: BIRMINGHAM, AL (SO09) Entry date: 06/16/2008 #




http://www.airnav.com/airport/15A
15A Mark Reynolds/North Mobile County Airport
Creola, Alabama, USA

Runway Information
Runway 3/21
Dimensions: 2000 x 180 ft. / 610 x 55 m
Surface: turf, in fair condition
Runway edge lights: non-standard
RY 03/21 NSTD LIRL; NO THLD LGTS.

RUNWAY 3
Traffic pattern: left
Obstructions: 26 ft. trees, 352 ft. from runway, 120 ft. left of
centerline, 13:1 slope to clear

RUNWAY 21
Traffic pattern: left
Obstructions: 55 ft. trees, 451 ft. from runway, 170 ft. right of
centerline, 8:1 slope to clear

Satellite image:

<http://maps.google.com/maps?q=30.913239,-87.980553+(15A)&ie=UTF8&ll=30.909736,-87.996497&spn=0.031408,0.025105&t=h&z=15&lci=lmc:panoramio>

>but intentionally. Well, I've been on many such strips worldwide.
>So, what do you do?


Not being familiar with the performance numbers for a Bonanza, it's
difficult to be specific.

There's a clue here, but I'm not sure this information is for a BE35:

http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/info/airplane105.shtml
Aircraft Performance Data

Beechcraft S 35 Bonanza - Performance Data
Horsepower: 285
Top Speed: 184 kts
Cruise Speed: 178 kts
Stall Speed (dirty): 54 kts
Gross Weight: 3300 lbs Empty Weight: 1915 lbs
Fuel Capacity: 50 gal Range: 453 nm

Takeoff Landing
Ground Roll: 880 ft Ground Roll 625 ft
Over 50 ft obstacle:1225ft Over 50 ft obstacle: 1150 ft

Rate Of Climb: 1200 fpm
Ceiling: 18300 ft


And I don't know where the engine quit (position relative to the
threshold and altitude).

That said, I'd attempt to restart if the situation permitted. Failing
that, I'd close the fuel valve and mixture, circle over the threshold,
drop the gear and flaps if appropriate, turn the master electrical
switch off, trim for normal approach speed, cinch my seat/shoulder
belt tight, and at pattern altitude, make a slightly high short-field
approach (to assure making the field), and forward-slip off the excess
altitude before touching down, and brake hard if necessary.

But if I were low when the engine failed/faltered with an undercast at
900', it could be a handful....

[Jim Logajan]

Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:44:52 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>>So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
>>this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
>>passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
>>I've been on that strip many many times
>
>
> http://www.al.com/press-register/stories/index.ssf?/base/news/121360772
> 1238040.xml&coll=3
[ Quoting from story: ]
> Gouges in the dirt made by the plane's left wing start near the
> very beginning of the runway, only about 100 feet from a metal
> fence marking the edge of the airfield's property.
>
> Judging by the markings made by the crash, the plane barely made
> it to the runway, Buffkin said.

It appears the length of the runway was not relevant so much as its
position relative to the Bonanza when the engine quit.

Next time they should build it closer to the plane! ;-)

Hopefully the back pain the pilot's wife was feeling isn't indicative of
any permanent back injury. :-(

[Big John]

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:44:52 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> wrote:

>So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
>this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
>passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
>I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
>been on many such strips worldwide.
>So, what do you do?

WAG

May have stretched the glide to make field and bird stalled over end
of R/W with wing dropping and hitting the ground first.

Sounds like he did a good job to me from the data we know now.

Big John

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Jun 17, 10:16*pm, Big John > wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:44:52 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
>
> > wrote:
> >So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
> >this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
> >passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
> >I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
> >been on many such strips worldwide.
> >So, what do you do?
>
> WAG
>
> May have stretched the glide to make field and bird stalled over end
> of R/W with wing dropping and hitting the ground first.
>
> Sounds like he did a good job to me from the data we know now.
>
> Big John

Big John
I flew over the strip this morning and the airplane is still in place
on the north end of the runway and really close to the approach end of
the runway. There are trees and swamp on the north end, and I-65 at
the southwest end with swamp all around the area. All I saw were pics
of the a/c in the news, read the different reports, and saw the actual
accident site. The runway is well maintained, about 200' wideX2000'.
At least no one was killed or seriously injured. The Bo looked pretty
rough though.
I'm just guessing that he had a fairly steep approach angle with a
high sink rate to hit and stop where he did. It was well short of my
normal touchdown zone on that strip and I've been in there many many
times with students.
As any experienced pilot knows......"you had to have been there to
know what really happened or how......"
Best Regards
Ol S&B

[romeomike]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
> So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
> this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
> passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
> I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
> been on many such strips worldwide.
> So, what do you do?


I must be missing a link to more info on this incident. Just from what I
see in your post, I would land on the airstrip if within gliding
distance. (2000 ft is enough.) Otherwise, look for another spot to land
on. What am I missing?

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Nomen Nescio wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: Dudley Henriques >
>
>> I hate to second guess another pilot who was there and actually had the
>> accident, but depending on where he was when he lost the engine, my
>> initial question would be why he crashed at all having a 2000 foot grass
>> strip to land on. I'm puzzled. If he had any time at all to plan a dead
>> engine approach into such a strip, he should have made it in there with
>> no issues at all with a Bo.
>
> Well, throwing another WAG into the mix..............
> The guy may have been nervous about a 2000' grass strip and just
> flown the approach as a poor short/soft field landing. I'm amazed, nowadays,
> at the number of pilots who have never landed on a grass strip.
> He may have tried waaaay to hard to put it down on the end of the strip...and
> came up short.
>
> As to "Ol Shy & Bashful"'s question "So, what do you do?".
> I'd probably approach a bit high and a bit hot. Counting on a slip to square
> things up in the last few seconds. Figuring that if I REALLY blew it, it's better
> to go off the far end at 20 kts, than land short at 90 kts.
>
> This, of course, assumes that the plane had enough energy to give the
> pilot some options.

The thing about forced landings is that no two of them are exactly
alike. It's the total acceptance of this single fact that forms the
basis for the way all good instructors teach pilots to think about these
situations. In other words, what you could and should have done 5
seconds ago is now changed from that to what you should be doing NOW,
based on the extremely dynamic situation in play as an emergency takes
place involving a forced landing with an aircraft moving through threee
dimensional space.

In order to evaluate post incident what a pilot could have or should
have done in a given accident, one literally has to project the flight
path backwards from the impact scene to the point in space where the
emergency occurred; then data point from there two decision paths to the
impact point; the first path the decisions made vs the second decision
path; the decisions possible for the existing conditions.

(For example; 90 kts and short immediately presents the question; why short?

This is an extremely difficult process as one can see :-), and is the
reason why it's so hard to come to any viable conclusions in these
discussions.

Your general "plan" for a forced landing set up sounds good to me.


--
Dudley Henriques

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:50:16 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> wrote:

>On Jun 17, 10:16*pm, Big John > wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:44:52 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
>>
>> > wrote:
>> >So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
>> >this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
>> >passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
>> >I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
>> >been on many such strips worldwide.
>> >So, what do you do?
>>
>> WAG
>>
>> May have stretched the glide to make field and bird stalled over end
>> of R/W with wing dropping and hitting the ground first.
>>
>> Sounds like he did a good job to me from the data we know now.
>>
>> Big John
>
>Big John
>I flew over the strip this morning and the airplane is still in place
>on the north end of the runway and really close to the approach end of
>the runway. There are trees and swamp on the north end, and I-65 at
>the southwest end with swamp all around the area. All I saw were pics
>of the a/c in the news, read the different reports, and saw the actual
>accident site. The runway is well maintained, about 200' wideX2000'.
>At least no one was killed or seriously injured. The Bo looked pretty
>rough though.
>I'm just guessing that he had a fairly steep approach angle with a
>high sink rate to hit and stop where he did. It was well short of my
>normal touchdown zone on that strip and I've been in there many many
>times with students.
>As any experienced pilot knows......"you had to have been there to
>know what really happened or how......"
>Best Regards
>Ol S&B

he did the very best he could at the time.
we can only hope that we do as well or better if it happens to us.
Stealth Pilot

[terry]

On Jun 18, 8:44*am, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
> this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
> passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
> I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
> been on many such strips worldwide.
> So, what do you do?

Well this is what I was trained to do. It works for me in practice ,
I just hope I have the presence of mind to do it when I really have
to.

turn excess speed into altitude and trim for best glide speed
try carby heat and mixture rich.
check wind direction
select landing spot
If height allows I aim for 2500 ft agl high point key at upwind end
of landing spot.
then aim for 1500 ft agl abeam landing pt on downwind.
if time permits I will try to get the engine restarted
check fuel and change tank if applicable
try left and right magnetos
try throttle at different positions
make a mayday call
give a passenger briefing
aim 1/3 into the field or runway
( better to be long than short)
turn base at 1000 ft agl
delay flaps until sure I am going to make it.
if still too high I will try slipping in
mixture idle cut off
magnetos off
fuel off
master switch off

Of course this all depends on altitude at which engine failure
occurs , if I dont have time I will ignore restart of engine, I will
do the mayday call and pax brief if I have time, but nothing will
take precedence over getting the airplane down safely.
I WILL NOT TRY TO STRETCH THE GLIDE. I would also prefer a field I
know I can make rather than an airfield I may be able to make.

Terry
PPL Downunder

[Michael[_1_]]

On Jun 17, 11:50*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> As any experienced pilot knows......"you had to have been there to
> know what really happened or how......"

Yes. The NTSB report won't tell us much. But here's a thought...

I think the pilot did either a very good job - or a very poor one -
but we have no way to know. Given the area around the airport, there
really wasn't any place else to land North of the field - and that's
where he came in.

Sometimes stretching the glide is the way to go. Many years ago, a
friend and former student of mine was flying a Kolb Twinstar - and the
Rotax quit at about 200 AGL on the climbout. His options for a
straight-ahead landing was basically trees. So he turned back.

Now the thing about the Kolb is that the climb speed is way higher
than the stall speed (much bigger difference than in the garden-
variety spam cans) so he had some speed he could bleed as well as
altitude. Also, he was a glider pilot, so he knew all about banking
45 degrees at 150 ft. Well, he pulled it off - sort of. He put it
back on the field, but he ran out of energy in the last bit of the
flare. Bent some tubing, but walked away. I suspect it would have
been much worse had he landed straight ahead into the trees. Really,
he did a great job.

On the other hand, I knew another pilot who was flying jumpers in a
C182 and ran out of gas on final. He could have just put it down on
the open grass short of the runway and done fine, but he stretched the
glide to the runway. Same basic result - ran out of speed and
destroyed the airplane but walked away. He was a ****up. Flies for
Southwest now.

Anyway, my point is that there are situations where getting the plane
to the runway with not quite enough energy to flare is the best you
can do - and other situations where it's gross incompetence. Not much
in the middle though.

The Bo is not normally landed power off (I know you know this - this
is more for the benefit of those lurking). In fact, if I were putting
one into that strip, I would likely be coming down at about 80 mph
with a lot of power. Best glide, if I remember right, is about 30 mph
more than that. So there are two possible explanations. Maybe the
pilot screwed up - slowed down too much and sank out. Or maybe he was
coming in clean at 110 mph, saw that he was not making the field, and
effectively started his flare at a few hundred feet, bleeding energy
to stretch the glide, dropping flaps and gear at the last second, and
just misjudged it by that much.

We'll never know.

Michael

[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article
>,
"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:

> On Jun 17, 10:16*pm, Big John > wrote:
> > On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:44:52 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
> > >this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
> > >passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
> > >I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
> > >been on many such strips worldwide.
> > >So, what do you do?
> >
> > WAG

Most of the Bo (and other higher-performance singles) never practice
engine-out emergencies. They also tend to fly approach at far too-high
airspeed.

I usually approach and land power-off, generally from an overhead
approach.

Proper technique:


1. Establish best L/D glide speed.

2. Keep it clean (no gear or flaps) until you have the field made.

3. Fly to overhead the field (if possible).

4. Keep it close to the field.

5. See #2 above.

6. Modulate glide angle with gear and flaps.

7. 1.3 x stall speed is right for most certificated planes.

8. Land in a full-flare.

Don't worry about ground roll in grass. The taller the grass the shorter
the roll.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Ross]

Vaughn Simon wrote:
> "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
> ...
>> So, what do you do?
>
> Slow it down to best glide and then do the very best you can from there. I
> am also a glider pilot but if the noise suddenly stopped on my Cezzna I would be
> in that situation for the very first time. I would hope I could do better, but
> you won't get me to speak badly of someone who blew a dead stick approach to a
> 2000' runway. Hell, I have had to go around more than once after screwing up an
> ordinary approach.
>
> Vaughn
>
>

I have only had to ride a plane down once and was successful. Heck, it
was out in Western Kansas and all the wheat fields are very long
runways. But I have learned in practice to plan an little high and slip
the last part. I do not want to come up short.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Darkwing]

"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: Dudley Henriques >
>
>>I hate to second guess another pilot who was there and actually had the
>>accident, but depending on where he was when he lost the engine, my
>>initial question would be why he crashed at all having a 2000 foot grass
>>strip to land on. I'm puzzled. If he had any time at all to plan a dead
>>engine approach into such a strip, he should have made it in there with
>>no issues at all with a Bo.
>
> Well, throwing another WAG into the mix..............
> The guy may have been nervous about a 2000' grass strip and just
> flown the approach as a poor short/soft field landing. I'm amazed,
> nowadays,
> at the number of pilots who have never landed on a grass strip.
> He may have tried waaaay to hard to put it down on the end of the
> strip...and
> came up short.


Where I rent we have to sign a release saying that we will not land on any
grass strips, the only time I even landed on a grass strip was in a
neighbors Decathlon when I was just a kid.

[Ross]

Darkwing wrote:
> "Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
> ...
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>> From: Dudley Henriques >
>>
>>> I hate to second guess another pilot who was there and actually had the
>>> accident, but depending on where he was when he lost the engine, my
>>> initial question would be why he crashed at all having a 2000 foot grass
>>> strip to land on. I'm puzzled. If he had any time at all to plan a dead
>>> engine approach into such a strip, he should have made it in there with
>>> no issues at all with a Bo.
>> Well, throwing another WAG into the mix..............
>> The guy may have been nervous about a 2000' grass strip and just
>> flown the approach as a poor short/soft field landing. I'm amazed,
>> nowadays,
>> at the number of pilots who have never landed on a grass strip.
>> He may have tried waaaay to hard to put it down on the end of the
>> strip...and
>> came up short.
>
>
> Where I rent we have to sign a release saying that we will not land on any
> grass strips, the only time I even landed on a grass strip was in a
> neighbors Decathlon when I was just a kid.
>
>

What a shame. They can be a lot of fun.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Darkwing]

"Ross" > wrote in message
...
> Vaughn Simon wrote:
>> "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> So, what do you do?
>>
>> Slow it down to best glide and then do the very best you can from
>> there. I am also a glider pilot but if the noise suddenly stopped on my
>> Cezzna I would be in that situation for the very first time. I would
>> hope I could do better, but you won't get me to speak badly of someone
>> who blew a dead stick approach to a 2000' runway. Hell, I have had to go
>> around more than once after screwing up an ordinary approach.
>>
>> Vaughn
>
> I have only had to ride a plane down once and was successful. Heck, it was
> out in Western Kansas and all the wheat fields are very long runways. But
> I have learned in practice to plan an little high and slip the last part.
> I do not want to come up short.
>
> --
>
> Regards, Ross
> C-172F 180HP
> KSWI

Just like landing the shuttle! <g>

[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article >,
Ross > wrote:

> Darkwing wrote:
> > "Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >>
> >> From: Dudley Henriques >
> >>
> >>> I hate to second guess another pilot who was there and actually had the
> >>> accident, but depending on where he was when he lost the engine, my
> >>> initial question would be why he crashed at all having a 2000 foot grass
> >>> strip to land on. I'm puzzled. If he had any time at all to plan a dead
> >>> engine approach into such a strip, he should have made it in there with
> >>> no issues at all with a Bo.
> >> Well, throwing another WAG into the mix..............
> >> The guy may have been nervous about a 2000' grass strip and just
> >> flown the approach as a poor short/soft field landing. I'm amazed,
> >> nowadays,
> >> at the number of pilots who have never landed on a grass strip.
> >> He may have tried waaaay to hard to put it down on the end of the
> >> strip...and
> >> came up short.
> >
> >
> > Where I rent we have to sign a release saying that we will not land on any
> > grass strips, the only time I even landed on a grass strip was in a
> > neighbors Decathlon when I was just a kid.
> >
> >
>
> What a shame. They can be a lot of fun.


As they used to say in the 1960s: "There's nothing like good grass!"

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[Vaughn Simon]

"terry" > wrote in message
...

>master switch off

Only when you are done with everything electrical! (flaps, radio, etc. etc)

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Darkwing wrote:

>
>Where I rent we have to sign a release saying that we will not land on any
>grass strips, the only time I even landed on a grass strip was in a
>neighbors Decathlon when I was just a kid.

I wonder what the reasons are for that restriction. I can understand why
they wouldn't want you landing on a random patch of grass somewhere, but
public airports with grass strips don't strike me as being inherently
dangerous. A well mowed grass strip doesn't even require much in the way of
soft field procedures.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

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[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:45:00 -0500, Ross > wrote
in >:

>They can be a lot of fun.

What makes turf airstrips fun?

[terry]

On Jun 19, 6:59*am, "Vaughn Simon" >
wrote:
> "terry" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >master switch off
>
> * *Only when you are done with everything electrical! *(flaps, radio, etc. etc)

flaps sure, that will likely be the last thing electrical I will be
using. I dont think I will be worrying about radio on final.... unless
someone knows the frequency for god?
Terry
PPL Downunder

[Vaughn Simon]

"terry" > wrote in message
...
> I dont think I will be worrying about radio on final.... unless
>someone knows the frequency for god?

...or some clueless one starts to taxi onto the runway in front of you?
Also, your impromptu appearance in the pattern is liable to disrupt and/or
confuse other traffic. Yes, others will do whatever it takes to clear the way
for you, but far better to not give up the option of communication until you are
sure it will not be needed and/or can't help the situation.

Vaughn

[Jim Logajan]

Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:45:00 -0500, Ross > wrote
> in >:
>
>>They can be a lot of fun.
>
> What makes turf airstrips fun?

I believe he means that, as a general rule, it's their locations that make
them more fun than paved ones.

[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article >,
Jim Logajan > wrote:

> Larry Dighera > wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:45:00 -0500, Ross > wrote
> > in >:
> >
> >>They can be a lot of fun.
> >
> > What makes turf airstrips fun?
>
> I believe he means that, as a general rule, it's their locations that make
> them more fun than paved ones.

Also, a well-maintained sod strip gives you the smoothest landings
possible. I landed once eat Leeward air Ranch and could not tell I had
landed until the plane started slowing down. It is one of the smoothest
strips I have ever landed on.

Also, grass runways cut tire and brake wear WAY down!

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[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:50:25 -0400, Orval Fairbairn
> wrote in
>:

>Also, grass runways cut tire and brake wear WAY down!

I would expect sod strips to be ideal for learning to master landing a
tail-wheeled aircraft.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:50:25 -0400, Orval Fairbairn
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>> Also, grass runways cut tire and brake wear WAY down!
>
> I would expect sod strips to be ideal for learning to master landing a
> tail-wheeled aircraft.
>
In checking pilots out in a Pitts, I always had them use the grass first
and get REALLY proficient with the roll out behavior of the airplane
before sending them on to a hard surface. Grass was MADE for a Pitts! :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

[More_Flaps]

On Jun 19, 3:23*pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> Larry Dighera wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:50:25 -0400, Orval Fairbairn
> > > wrote in
> > >:
>
> >> Also, grass runways cut tire and brake wear *WAY down!
>
> > I would expect sod strips to be ideal for learning to master landing a
> > tail-wheeled *aircraft.
>
> In checking pilots out in a Pitts, I always had them use the grass first
> and get REALLY proficient with the roll out behavior of the airplane
> before sending them on to a hard surface. Grass was MADE for a Pitts! :-))
>

In my limited experience the key to a good FLWOP is planning the 1000'
and 2000' points. If you nail them the glide approach is much more
straightfoward.

my 2c

Cheers

[Dylan Smith]

On 2008-06-18, Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
> Most of the Bo (and other higher-performance singles) never practice
> engine-out emergencies. They also tend to fly approach at far too-high
> airspeed.

In the case of an engine out, a higher approach speed might be
necessary. IIRC, I used to be on short final in an S-35 Bonanza at 65
knots IAS with full flaps, but I had some power on. The S-35 manual
cautioned the pilot to approach 10 knots faster in the case of engine
failure, to have sufficient energy for the flare. The sink rate in a
power off approach is also higher, it really does look like the ground
is coming up to smite you. If you've never landed one power off before
this could be a bit startling and induce the pilot to flare too early.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

[Peter Dohm]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2008-06-18, Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
>> Most of the Bo (and other higher-performance singles) never practice
>> engine-out emergencies. They also tend to fly approach at far too-high
>> airspeed.
>
> In the case of an engine out, a higher approach speed might be
> necessary. IIRC, I used to be on short final in an S-35 Bonanza at 65
> knots IAS with full flaps, but I had some power on. The S-35 manual
> cautioned the pilot to approach 10 knots faster in the case of engine
> failure, to have sufficient energy for the flare. The sink rate in a
> power off approach is also higher, it really does look like the ground
> is coming up to smite you. If you've never landed one power off before
> this could be a bit startling and induce the pilot to flare too early.
>
> --
That makes a lot of sense. The one time that I was along in a Bellanca
Viking for a radically reduced power approach, the descent rate and angle
were dramatically greater than a normal approach in the same airplane. That
was still with the engine just above idle--rather than windmilling.

Peter

[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article >,
Dylan Smith > wrote:

> On 2008-06-18, Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
> > Most of the Bo (and other higher-performance singles) never practice
> > engine-out emergencies. They also tend to fly approach at far too-high
> > airspeed.
>
> In the case of an engine out, a higher approach speed might be
> necessary. IIRC, I used to be on short final in an S-35 Bonanza at 65
> knots IAS with full flaps, but I had some power on. The S-35 manual
> cautioned the pilot to approach 10 knots faster in the case of engine
> failure, to have sufficient energy for the flare. The sink rate in a
> power off approach is also higher, it really does look like the ground
> is coming up to smite you. If you've never landed one power off before
> this could be a bit startling and induce the pilot to flare too early.

That is why you need to PRACTICE!

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[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article >,
"Peter Dohm" > wrote:

> "Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 2008-06-18, Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
> >> Most of the Bo (and other higher-performance singles) never practice
> >> engine-out emergencies. They also tend to fly approach at far too-high
> >> airspeed.
> >
> > In the case of an engine out, a higher approach speed might be
> > necessary. IIRC, I used to be on short final in an S-35 Bonanza at 65
> > knots IAS with full flaps, but I had some power on. The S-35 manual
> > cautioned the pilot to approach 10 knots faster in the case of engine
> > failure, to have sufficient energy for the flare. The sink rate in a
> > power off approach is also higher, it really does look like the ground
> > is coming up to smite you. If you've never landed one power off before
> > this could be a bit startling and induce the pilot to flare too early.
> >
> > --
> That makes a lot of sense. The one time that I was along in a Bellanca
> Viking for a radically reduced power approach, the descent rate and angle
> were dramatically greater than a normal approach in the same airplane. That
> was still with the engine just above idle--rather than windmilling.
>
> Peter

I do it all the time in my Johnson Rocket. Approach at 80 mph, descent
indicated 2000-3000 fpm.

Come overhead at 160, break, pull power back during the break, slow to
100 mph gear/flap speed, drop the gear, hold 80 mph, turn tight base,
full flaps on final, start the flare about 30-50 ft, grease it on in a
full stall.

Yes, the ground DOES come up fast -- especially with a significant
headwind, but it all becomes routine with practice.

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[Cubdriver]

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:29:12 -0500, Jim Logajan >
wrote:

>> What makes turf airstrips fun?
>
>I believe he means that, as a general rule, it's their locations that make
>them more fun than paved ones.

Grass is MUCH easier to land on than asphalt, especially in a
taildragger. The additional friction seems to rule out the possibility
of a ground loop, and there's no revealing SQUEAK when you touch down.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:49:52 -0400, Cubdriver <usenet AT danford DOT
net> wrote in >:

>The additional friction seems to rule out the possibility
>of a ground loop,

You believe that rubber tires have more traction in turf than they do
on asphalt?

[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:49:52 -0400, Cubdriver <usenet AT danford DOT
> net> wrote in >:
>
> >The additional friction seems to rule out the possibility
> >of a ground loop,
>
> You believe that rubber tires have more traction in turf than they do
> on asphalt?

The main gear, with less traction has a reduced tendency to create a
groundloop, while the tailwheel has extra drag, which stabilizes the
landing.

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[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in news:287355da-ddcf-4f79-
:

> So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
> this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
> passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
> I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
> been on many such strips worldwide.
> So, what do you do?
>

Whatever needed to be done. Why did they crash? Land short? Long?


Bertie

[Dylan Smith]

On 2008-06-20, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:49:52 -0400, Cubdriver <usenet AT danford DOT
> net> wrote in >:
>
>>The additional friction seems to rule out the possibility
>>of a ground loop,
>
> You believe that rubber tires have more traction in turf than they do
> on asphalt?

Grass is draggier BUT you have less traction on it. That's why it's more
forgiving in a tailwheel plane - you'll slow faster with less brakes,
but if you touch down slightly sideways the wheels will tend to slip.

If you've ever ridden a bicycle from a tarmac surface to a grass
surface, you'll grok the difference.

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