Immediate Action Items Checklist

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

Do YOU have one? Do you rehearse it or practice it while the pressure
is off? If not, why not? What do you use for immediate action and why?

[K l e i n[_2_]]

On Jun 17, 4:46 pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> Do YOU have one? Do you rehearse it or practice it while the pressure
> is off? If not, why not? What do you use for immediate action and why?

What I've been working on is a checklist for my wife to use to save
her life (and maybe mine) in the event of a sudden incapacitation of
the PIC (me). It's a turbine twin so it's no small task for someone
unfamiliar to get it on the ground safely. She has a ppsel but hasn't
flown solo in almost thirty years. At least she knows what a good
approach and landing looks like. In this case, a good landing would
not require reuse of the airplane.

K l e i n

[RST Engineering]

Of course not. The checklist for a goose coming through the windshield is
completely different than smoke in the cockpit is completely different from
the engine burping and stopping is completely different from ... (insert
multiple scenarios here).

Jim

--
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
without accepting it."
--Aristotle


"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
...
> Do YOU have one? Do you rehearse it or practice it while the pressure
> is off? If not, why not? What do you use for immediate action and why?

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:46:47 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> wrote in
>:

>Do YOU have one? Do you rehearse it or practice it while the pressure
>is off? If not, why not? What do you use for immediate action and why?


This is the first I've heard of that term. Are you referring to
emergency procedures contained in the aircraft's POH?

[Blueskies]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message m...
> Of course not. The checklist for a goose coming through the windshield is
> completely different than smoke in the cockpit is completely different from
> the engine burping and stopping is completely different from ... (insert
> multiple scenarios here).
>
> Jim
>
> --
> "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
> without accepting it."
> --Aristotle
>

It is not a goose, it is a DUCK...

[gatt[_5_]]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:46:47 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"

> Do you rehearse it or practice it while the pressure
>>is off? If not, why not? What do you use for immediate action and why?
>
> This is the first I've heard of that term. Are you referring to
> emergency procedures contained in the aircraft's POH?

I think he's referring to immediate action in the sense that if you're
on takeoff--he mentioned 200'-- and you lose power, you don't have time
to fish out the POH and run through the checklist.

Actually, of course, that should be done beforehand. You already know
you're at T/O power, mixture rich, prop forward, fuel pump on, engine
instruments green, mags both and flaps at recommended setting because
you (theoretically) verified that right before launching, and either you
just retracted your gear or you haven't yet (or they're fixed.)

That simplifies things, and you'd be wasting seconds by referring to a
checklist of things you just completed.

And since you've already considered what's downrange and where you're
going to put it if it fails on takeoff, the actual checklist of
immediate action items is going to be very small, and you ran through
that before rolling onto the runway already (Establish best glide,
gear/no gear, flaps, fuel, electrical, door, don't panic, fly, etc.)

Seems like you could make a pretty succinct kneeboard checklist so
you're not wasting time flipping anything.

-c

[Bob F.[_2_]]

"K l e i n" > wrote in message
...
> On Jun 17, 4:46 pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>> Do YOU have one? Do you rehearse it or practice it while the pressure
>> is off? If not, why not? What do you use for immediate action and why?
>
> What I've been working on is a checklist for my wife to use to save
> her life (and maybe mine) in the event of a sudden incapacitation of
> the PIC (me). It's a turbine twin so it's no small task for someone
> unfamiliar to get it on the ground safely. She has a ppsel but hasn't
> flown solo in almost thirty years. At least she knows what a good
> approach and landing looks like. In this case, a good landing would
> not require reuse of the airplane.
>
> K l e i n

Have you considered the AOPA Pinch Hitters Course?
see: http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/183023-1.html

--
Regards, BobF.

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Jun 17, 7:21*pm, "RST Engineering" > wrote:
> Of course not. *The checklist for a goose coming through the windshield is
> completely different than smoke in the cockpit is completely different from
> the engine burping and stopping is completely different from ... (insert
> multiple scenarios here).
>
> Jim
>
> --
> "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
> without accepting it."
> * * * * --Aristotle
>
> "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in ...
>
>
>
> > Do YOU have one? Do you rehearse it or practice it while the pressure
> > is off? If not, why not? What do you use for immediate action and why?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text


OF COURSE NOT? Do you just wait to see what happens before you make
any kind of plan? Jim I'm not trying to start an argument and of
course every emergency is likely to be different. What I AM trying to
do is make people think ahead of emergencies. This most recent
accident where the pilot dead sticked a Bonanza onto a 2000' grass
strip and wrecked the airplane prompted the post.
He was headed for my base of operations which is about 10 miles away
when he said his engine quit. There is a lot of swampy area but there
is also I-65 which borders the strip he chose for landing. I suspect
the pressure got to him and he picked the best of his personal
options. Don't know the man or his capabilities so its dumb to say
what he "coulda woulda shoulda done".
BTW, in over 50 years I've had more than 15 actual emergencies and any
number of minor ones like birds coming thru the windshield.
Cheers
Ol S&B

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Jun 17, 7:36*pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:46:47 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
> >Do YOU have one? Do you rehearse it or practice it while the pressure
> >is off? If not, why not? What do you use for immediate action and why?
>
> This is the first I've heard of that term. *Are you referring to
> emergency procedures contained in the aircraft's POH?

Larry
Immediate Emergency Action is just exactly that. If you check stats,
the vast majority of engine failures occur because of fuel problems.
Fuel exhaustion, fuel starvation, fuel contamination or a mechanical
like fuel pump or fuel line failure. I think its like 80%? So, if a
pilot does the obvious like fuel tank select, mixture, throttle, carb
heat (if carbureted) fuel pump on (if so equipped) there is a chance
of taking care of the problem without heading for the trees while
digging out the checklist and crashing. Most of the POH info goes thru
the litany of things to check while setting up for a crash and down
towards the bottom kind of as an afterthought says "Attempt to restart
the engine if time permits..." That is kind of after the fact and way
too late.
When I was flying a variety of aircraft and jumping from one to
another, I tried to do the procedure for one that did not apply and
damned near put it into the trees. After that, I took time to review
Immediate Action Items for the specific aircraft I was flying before I
took off. I rehearsed the specific immediate action items before
takeoff and still do it to this day and teach my students the same. If
an engine quits at less than 500' agl, there is not much time to
decide what to do and it sure is better to have a game plan rehearsed
immediately beforehand. I spent about 40 years doing crop dusting or
ag operations and the margin for error is pretty narrow as is the time
to react to emergencies. That is where I got my basis for this answer.
Cheers
Ol S&B

[[email protected]]

On Jun 17, 5:46*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> Do YOU have one?

Yes, but in the real deal emergency, valuable time wasted reaching for
it and getting oriented to where to start reading.

>Do you rehearse it or practice it while the pressure is off? If not, why not?

No, too many variables and too many situations and most importantly,
not like the real deal.

>What do you use for immediate action and why?

Trouble shooting first (AVIATE), Landing spot second (NAVIGATE),
declare emergency third (COMMUNICATE).

http://tinyurl.com/6ngvp7 for my in flight emergency and how I handled
it.

I consider it utmost important the emergency procedures be memorized,
as when the crap hits the fan, reading a list would be distracting and
may excasperate the problem.

NOW.... if I had a passenger, pulling the list and having them look it
over and read it to ensure I didn't miss anything would be good CRM.
In my case, it wouldn't have done squat.

[A Lieberman[_2_]]

On Jun 17, 7:58*pm, gatt > wrote:

> Seems like you could make a pretty succinct kneeboard checklist so
> you're not wasting time flipping anything.

I have one, full page laminated and easily reachable in the passenger
door pouch..... in the real deal, it's really of no use...My answers
to Ol Shy and Bashful below.

On Jun 17, 5:46 pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> Do YOU have one?

Yes, but in the real deal emergency, valuable time wasted reaching for
it and getting oriented to where to start reading.

>Do you rehearse it or practice it while the pressure is off? If not, why not?

No, too many variables and too many situations and most importantly,
not like the real deal.

>What do you use for immediate action and why?

Trouble shooting first (AVIATE), Landing spot second (NAVIGATE),
declare emergency third (COMMUNICATE).

http://tinyurl.com/6ngvp7 for my in flight emergency and how I handled
it.

I consider it utmost important the emergency procedures be memorized,
as when the crap hits the fan, reading a list would be distracting and
may excasperate the problem.

NOW.... if I had a passenger, pulling the list and having them look it
over and read it to ensure I didn't miss anything would be good CRM.
In my case, it wouldn't have done squat.

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Jun 17, 10:10*pm, A Lieberman > wrote:
> On Jun 17, 7:58*pm, gatt > wrote:
>
> > Seems like you could make a pretty succinct kneeboard checklist so
> > you're not wasting time flipping anything.
>
> I have one, full page laminated and easily reachable in the passenger
> door pouch..... in the real deal, it's really of no use...My answers
> to Ol Shy and Bashful below.
>
> On Jun 17, 5:46 pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>
> > Do YOU have one?
>
> Yes, but in the real deal emergency, valuable time wasted reaching for
> it and getting oriented to where to start reading.
>
> >Do you rehearse it or practice it while the pressure is off? If not, why not?
>
> No, too many variables and too many situations and most importantly,
> not like the real deal.
>
> >What do you use for immediate action and why?
>
> Trouble shooting first (AVIATE), Landing spot second (NAVIGATE),
> declare emergency third (COMMUNICATE).
>
> http://tinyurl.com/6ngvp7for my in flight emergency and how I handled
> it.
>
> I consider it utmost important the emergency procedures be memorized,
> as when the crap hits the fan, reading a list would be distracting and
> may excasperate the problem.
>
> NOW.... if I had a passenger, pulling the list and having them look it
> over and read it to ensure I didn't miss anything would be good CRM.
> In my case, it wouldn't have done squat.

Not sure who I am replying to so bear with me? The most dangerous
emergency is with an engine problem down below 1000' agl (I refer to
that as the "Red Zone" and below 500' agl as the DARK RED Zone.
Certainly a competent pilot should have the immediate action items
memorized as there is little time to go digging out/reading a
checklist at low altitude with an emergency. And, I certainly am not
going to rely on a non-pilot to read the correct checklist in an
emergency?
For those who don't know me, I've been flying since the mid 50's, over
25,000 hours and nearly half that in ag operations with both FW/RW
worldwide. I've had a number of emergencies, engine failures,
mechanical failures, bird strikes, tree strikes, blown tires, brake
failures, prop failures, fuel problems, etc, etc ad infinitum. In
other words, enough real life experience to base my opinions on with a
reasonable degree of validity. Once you get past the bluster and
bull**** I think you'll find I have some valid points to consider.
I've got a book full of photos I've shot of broken airplanes and only
one of them was mine from very early in my career. I happened to be on
the different scenes and took the photos and/or talked with the pilot/
s involved. Includes a 737 that had a total electrical failure on
rotation from 25L at LGB and he stopped with his wingtip hanging over
the edge of the runway looking down on I-5. Talk about a high pucker
factor?!
My whole purpose here is to make pilots think about possibles and
variables. I fly nearly every day and do 70-80 hours a month
instructing. Even so I see new things weekly and new things to
consider. The potentials for disaster and accidents or incidents are
high here with a high volume of traffic and a mix of civil and
military aircraft. You have to keep safety in mind but temper it with
operational exigencies and realities. My sense of survival always has
me thinking of emergencies and I can't stop playing "what if ...."
I'll be 72 this year and not sure how much longer I'll stay in the
cockpit but I can guarantee I'll be thinking ahead of the aircraft as
long as I am.
Best Regards
Ol S&B

[[email protected]]

On Jun 17, 10:39*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:

> Not sure who I am replying to so bear with me? The most dangerous
> emergency is with an engine problem down below 1000' agl (I refer to
> that as the "Red Zone" and below 500' agl as the DARK RED Zone.
> Certainly a competent pilot should have the immediate action items
> memorized as there is little time to go digging out/reading a
> checklist at low altitude with an emergency.

I have a one page laminated document front and back taken directly
from the POH. As you indicated anything below 1000 feet, this
document probably will be of no use, but in the document, in big read
letters are the various stages of flight. In blue in 20 point text
are the steps to be taken during an emergency including my emergency
decent, glide and landing speeds.

The document is broken out in a very simple format. Head lines in red.

During take off Ground roll (obviously not designed for pulling out
either by me or passenger - fly the plane)
After lift off (again not designed for pulling out either by me or
passenger - open doors and fly the plane)

> And, I certainly am not
> going to rely on a non-pilot to read the correct checklist in an
> emergency?

In Flight - This is where I would ask a passenger to pull out the list
and read what is on the page so I can continue focusing on aviating.
There are only 14 items and the since I have it committed to memory,
the read back from the passenger would be only a verification that
indeed I remembered everything. After all, as indicated in my link, I
had time, just not by myself to "challenge" my memory.

> My whole purpose here is to make pilots think about possibles and
> variables.

Good discussion and always good reminders from threads of this nature.

> I fly nearly every day and do 70-80 hours a month
> instructing. Even so I see new things weekly and new things to
> consider. The potentials for disaster and accidents or incidents are
> high here with a high volume of traffic and a mix of civil and
> military aircraft. You have to keep safety in mind but temper it with
> operational exigencies and realities.

Just a measly 820+ under my belt, but I try to think like you, what
if... For IFR, I even include my engine instrumention intermittently
in my scan so that I can catch trends and report it before it becomes
an emergency, keeping that what if scenario in my mind. It only takes
an extra second for some peace of mine that things are running full
tilt.

Just like simulated vs actual IMC conditions, emergencies are the same
in my opinion, while it's nice to practice them, to experience one is
a whole different beast, since now you have the adrenaline factor that
was missing in training.

[BT]

BOLD PRINT items should be committed to memory..
there is not time to do anything else than practiced items..
Then when you are safe, and still flying, it is time to "wind the watch",
slow things down, get out the checklist and take care of solving the rest of
the problem.

Granted.. 200ft at take off power.. not much to do.. pitch for airspeed,
pick some thing within 20-30 degrees left or right of track that looks
soft.. and never quit flying.. as some one else posted.. fly it as far into
the accident as you can.

EP brief is part of the pre take off checklist, Glider flying... below
200ft.. straight ahead.. 200-500ft AGL, (and we make our students make a
verbal 200ft and 500ft call) a prebrief pitch for airspeed, 235 degree turn
back (45 degree intercept) to land opposite direction. Above 500ft, an
abbreviated traffic pattern and land into the wind.

Even flying twin engines, pre takeoff EP Brief, engine cough before
rotation, both throttles to idle, breaking straight ahead.
After rotation.. there is normally not enough runway left to stop.. based on
pre determined accelerate / stop computation
Everything forward, Both Throtttles full power, Props and Mixture, Pitch for
Vyse (airspeed)
Then, clean up (gear up, flaps up (as POH recommends)),
IDENTIFY, dead foot dead engine
VERIFY, reduce throttle on dead engine.. no change you got the right one
RECTIFY, Prop, dead engine feather, mixture idle cut off

Out here in the hot high altitude west, 40C and 3000MSL, most light twins
are already below their single engine service ceiling before they even start
the take off roll. Plan on landing straight ahead.

BT

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
...
> Do YOU have one? Do you rehearse it or practice it while the pressure
> is off? If not, why not? What do you use for immediate action and why?

[RST Engineering]

Um, that would be the 405. I-5 is about ten miles northeast.

Jim

--
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
without accepting it."
--Aristotle


Includes a 737 that had a total electrical failure on
rotation from 25L at LGB and he stopped with his wingtip hanging over
the edge of the runway looking down on I-5. Talk about a high pucker
factor?!

[RST Engineering]

If it is a duck, trust me, you are goosed.

Jim

--
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
without accepting it."
--Aristotle


"Blueskies" > wrote in message
...

>>
>
> It is not a goose, it is a DUCK...

[RST Engineering]

Well, I've got just over 40 years and about 5000 hours and only two
emergencies that I considered entertaining, so I've got a bit of a way to
catch you ... but ...

Both emergencies were engine failures, one a double ignition failure and one
a jug that decided it liked it better alone than with its 5 buddies. Those
you can plan for. The first one was at 200 AGL, but since our airport is at
800 AGL from the surrounding neighborhood, the freeway was the optimum
answer, and one that we had planned for from day one. The other one was
from 5000 AGL over the COntinental Divide (now I know why Continental
Engines named it that) with a dragstrip right below me. Both can be planned
for, and if "what the hell do I do when the fan stops" isn't in your head
during those times, then your instructor hasn't been nasty enough with you.

I've had birds on the wings and birds on the glass, but never a bird big
enough to go THROUGH the glass. I've had electrical smoke in the cockpit,
asymmetric flap failure that taught me snap rolls right NOW, and some minor
crap from student blunders that caught me unawares. Nothing that could be
planned for; just take it as it is and do what you need to do to remedy the
situation.

OF COURSE for the common ones and OF COURSE NOT for the ones that are just
plain off the wall.

Jim

--
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
without accepting it."
--Aristotle



"OF COURSE NOT? Do you just wait to see what happens before you make
any kind of plan?

BTW, in over 50 years I've had more than 15 actual emergencies and any
number of minor ones like birds coming thru the windshield.
Cheers
Ol S&B

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:10:55 -0700 (PDT), A Lieberman
> wrote:


>Trouble shooting first (AVIATE), Landing spot second (NAVIGATE),
>declare emergency third (COMMUNICATE).

aviate
navigate
procrastinate
communicate

dont do your thinking with the mike button pressed :-)
do it before you press it.

fly the aeroplane.
if you dont get time to do anything else ...so what?

Stealth Pilot

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:39:21 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> wrote:


>me thinking of emergencies and I can't stop playing "what if ...."
>I'll be 72 this year and not sure how much longer I'll stay in the
>cockpit but I can guarantee I'll be thinking ahead of the aircraft as


seventy two!!!!!!

is that all. you have at least 27 years left in you before you reach
the age of my hero - the guy who renewed his class 1 instrument rating
at age 99.

remember the words of that australian song ... you're only as old as
the woman you feel :-)

stop worrying - go flying.
Stealth Pilot

[RST Engineering]

That was a Groucho Marx line LONG before the Aussies stole it.

Jim

>
> remember the words of that australian song ... you're only as old as
> the woman you feel :-)

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:08:23 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> wrote in
>:

>On Jun 17, 7:36*pm, Larry Dighera > wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:46:47 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
>> > wrote in
>> >:
>>
>> >Do YOU have one? Do you rehearse it or practice it while the pressure
>> >is off? If not, why not? What do you use for immediate action and why?
>>
>> This is the first I've heard of that term. *Are you referring to
>> emergency procedures contained in the aircraft's POH?
>
>Larry
>Immediate Emergency Action is just exactly that.

Okay. So you're thinking about emergency procedures for a given
scenario on departure, en route, or arrival.

>If you check stats,
>the vast majority of engine failures occur because of fuel problems.
>Fuel exhaustion, fuel starvation, fuel contamination or a mechanical
>like fuel pump or fuel line failure. I think its like 80%? So, if a
>pilot does the obvious like fuel tank select, mixture, throttle, carb
>heat (if carbureted) fuel pump on (if so equipped) there is a chance
>of taking care of the problem without heading for the trees while
>digging out the checklist and crashing.

So you're concerned that the PIC should be instantly prepared for all
contingencies. If the pilot understands the systems (fuel,
electrical, control, hydraulic, ...), he shouldn't find
logically/intuitively diagnosing the cause of the emergency too
difficult.

>Most of the POH info goes thru
>the litany of things to check while setting up for a crash and down
>towards the bottom kind of as an afterthought says "Attempt to restart
>the engine if time permits..." That is kind of after the fact and way
>too late.

I suppose it can be at low altitude.

>When I was flying a variety of aircraft and jumping from one to
>another, I tried to do the procedure for one that did not apply and
>damned near put it into the trees.

I can certainly see how that might occur in that situation. What
happened?

>After that, I took time to review
>Immediate Action Items for the specific aircraft I was flying before I
>took off. I rehearsed the specific immediate action items before
>takeoff and still do it to this day and teach my students the same.

Coming from a pilot with your experience, preflight review of
emergency procedures is prudent and sound advice. Thanks for calling
it to my attention.

>If an engine quits at less than 500' agl, there is not much time to
>decide what to do

Right. If you believe you can successfully execute a turn-back, it's
best begun immediately rather than analyzing the cause of the problem.
However, a sudden power interruption is most likely due to a control
improperly positioned, and might be easily rectified. You're forcing
me to give this some thought.

I can see where the PIC should have a different response to similar
situations according to height/time available. If altitude permits,
one fiddles with the fuel selector, ...; if you're light and five
hundred feed AGL and the fan stops, you'd immediately bank 45 degrees,
and slow to five knots greater than stall speed, the speed at which
the warning is normally activated. If below that altitude, select a
touchdown point but a few tens of degrees from your present heading
that may provide the kinetic energy to be dissipated by the airframe
without endangering those on the ground, if possible. It's always
good to have a few spots at the home airport pre-picked out on the
departure end of the runways and on the crosswind legs.

>and it sure is better to have a game plan rehearsed immediately beforehand.

Things always go better when you're prepared.

>I spent about 40 years doing crop dusting or
>ag operations and the margin for error is pretty narrow as is the time
>to react to emergencies. That is where I got my basis for this answer.
>Cheers
>Ol S&B

Very much appreciated, Rocky.

[Ross]

Bob F. wrote:
>
>
> "K l e i n" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Jun 17, 4:46 pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>>> Do YOU have one? Do you rehearse it or practice it while the pressure
>>> is off? If not, why not? What do you use for immediate action and why?
>>
>> What I've been working on is a checklist for my wife to use to save
>> her life (and maybe mine) in the event of a sudden incapacitation of
>> the PIC (me). It's a turbine twin so it's no small task for someone
>> unfamiliar to get it on the ground safely. She has a ppsel but hasn't
>> flown solo in almost thirty years. At least she knows what a good
>> approach and landing looks like. In this case, a good landing would
>> not require reuse of the airplane.
>>
>> K l e i n
>
> Have you considered the AOPA Pinch Hitters Course?
> see: http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/183023-1.html
>

My wife took this years ago. She also soloed, but never went on to get
her license. She did say there is nothing like flying alone to have the
confidence. She thought the AOPA course would not satisfy that.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Jun 17, 11:26*pm, "RST Engineering" >
wrote:
> Um, that would be the 405. *I-5 is about ten miles northeast.
>
> Jim
>
> --
> "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
> without accepting it."
> * * * * --Aristotle
>
> *Includes a 737 that had a total electrical failure on
> rotation from 25L at LGB and he stopped with his wingtip hanging over
> the edge of the runway looking down on I-5. Talk about a high pucker
> factor?!

No wonder I kept getting lost on that damned freeway system!!! <ggg>
You are absolutely right of course and I operated out of LGB for years
and out of SNA for as many more. In fact, I started flying out of SNA
back in the mid 50's and worked the SoCal area for at least 20+ years.
The airplane was the old Western Airlines group and I think the
incident was about ....geeeezz '63-64? sometime in the 60's anyway....

[RST Engineering]

Better not have been. I vacated the airlines when I graduated and went into
the space program and the first 737 had yet to be delivered to my airline in
the late 1967s, as I vaguely recall. I could be wrong.

Funny, back in the '60s I'd send students on cross-countries to SNA (now
John Wayne) without a thought of it. Nowadays I'd be nuts to do that.

Jim

--
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
without accepting it."
--Aristotle



No wonder I kept getting lost on that damned freeway system!!! <ggg>
You are absolutely right of course and I operated out of LGB for years
and out of SNA for as many more. In fact, I started flying out of SNA
back in the mid 50's and worked the SoCal area for at least 20+ years.
The airplane was the old Western Airlines group and I think the
incident was about ....geeeezz '63-64? sometime in the 60's anyway....

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:08:09 -0700, "RST Engineering"
> wrote in
>:

>Funny, back in the '60s I'd send students on cross-countries to SNA (now
>John Wayne) without a thought of it. Nowadays I'd be nuts to do that.

Right. Today, the wake turbulence from the B-757s landing on 19R and
jet blast from airliners holding between the runways on taxiway Lima,
not to mention the windshere and birds, can be lethal for a solo
student landing on 19L. But I've got a signature in my logbook from
someone at Martin Aviation in 1970 to verify my solo xcountry.

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Jun 19, 1:09*am, Larry Dighera > wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:08:09 -0700, "RST Engineering"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
> >Funny, back in the '60s I'd send students on cross-countries to SNA (now
> >John Wayne) without a thought of it. *Nowadays I'd be nuts to do that.
>
> Right. *Today, the wake turbulence from the B-757s landing on 19R and
> jet blast from airliners holding between the runways on taxiway Lima,
> not to mention the windshere and birds, can be lethal for a solo
> student landing on 19L. *But I've got a signature in my logbook from
> someone at Martin Aviation in 1970 to verify my solo xcountry. *

You'd be hard pressed to even find where Martin was back then! I think
in the 70's it was still just south of the ramp area where air
carriers were parking. Mission Beech was on the north end and so was
transient parking. Long gone ...........Back when I first flew out of
SNA, there were parallel strips and one of them was used for drag
races on weekends! Torbet, Martin and Tallman aviation were all
operating. Mile Square was still popular for touch and goes and not
uncommon to see a mix of military and civilian aircraft in the
pattern ... also long gone for flying. Many of the old strips are
ancient history all across the country..