2 recent incidents [Archive]

Darryl Ramm

June 26th 08, 01:04 AM

On Jun 25, 4:17*pm, Ramy > wrote:
> Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
> learn from them:
>
> 1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
> - How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
> waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080603X00777&key=1
>
> 2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
> caused more accidents then we know of.http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080606X00809&key=1
>
> Ramy

Yep, why we can't also have radio communications as well is beyond me.
Radio by itself has to be safer on average at low altitude. If the
towplane can climb to altitude then do that before waggling coz you
know the guy being pulled behind might get it wrong.This was a two
seater with two people on board in the low-mountains at who knows what
density altitude and so maybe the tow pilot was very worried about any
ability to climb higher if the spoilers came out again. Not clear if
the pilot looked at the wings to verify the spoiler were retracted or
not, or since they were bouncing in and out maybe he did and just
missed it. It could also be the PIC was in the back seat with
restricted visibility and could not do this. But there seems to be
too few places teaching to actually look at the wings when doing
spoiler tests prior to landing or if things are not going well to
verify the spoilers are not out. That was not hammered into me during
training but I now do it. I think the waggle signal is something that
needs to be a part of every glider pilot's BFR. With a prior
discussion or a recent fatal "ah does waggle means release?"
accident, the instructor had the tow pilot throw it at me on my last
BFR. BTW those Pawnees etc. with bold stripes painted on their rudder
really help the waggle stand out. Even if you think the waggle is not
a good idea you need to practice it because you can't control what a
tow pilot is going to do if your spoilers are out. Just like they
can't control absent minded glider pilots. I know things happen fast
in an critical situation but I don't get that people can't remember
"rock off". It looks like something is wrong with the broad standard
of instruction/proficiency.

I know opinions differ but I really like places that require calling
out "starting aerotow with spoilers" etc. to let the tow pilot know
the pilot is not asleep with the spoilers unlocked.

I'm particularly paranoid about unlocked spoilers because in the
ASH-26E your left hand comes off the spoilers you've just locked and
works the throttle for takeoff. Things are busier than in an aero-tow,
more to monitor/do, but if the climb does not feel right the first
thing is to verify the spoilers are closed. And this has bitten some
pretty experienced pilots.

Darryl

Jim Logajan

June 26th 08, 01:27 AM

Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Jun 25, 4:17*pm, Ramy > wrote:
>> Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
>> learn from them:
>>
>> 1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
>> - How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
>> waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio
>> communication?http://www.nts
> b.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080603X00777&key=1
>>
>> 2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
>> caused more accidents then we know
>> of.http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?
> ev_id=20080606X00809&key=1
>>
>> Ramy
>
> Yep, why we can't also have radio communications as well is beyond me.
> Radio by itself has to be safer on average at low altitude.

There seems to be a certain (accidental?) irony in reporting the two
accidents: in one case radio comm would presumably have made the signal
from the tow pilot clear, while in the other it was a loose radio that may
have blocked forward movement of the stick.

My instructor has placed a hand held radio in a waist bag secured to her.
But it isn't of much use during these early flights since she needs to have
her hands free to be ready to save us from screwups by the student. ;-)

Gary Emerson

June 26th 08, 02:07 AM

How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
> waggle does NOT work?

I think this is a reasonably valid point. There HAVE been a number of
people who have misunderstood this signal.

Perhaps something else would be better. The question is what signal
would be a good replacement. You could have flashing lights on the
towplane, perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. The only thing is
you'd probably have to install two lights. Say one yellow and one red.

Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
quick we'll keep going. Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.

If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
releasing when they didn't have to.

As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of
high output LEDs. When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you
have a single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in
concept, but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). That way
the glider pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and
they stay "on" for the duration of the tow. If either the "warning" or
"get off" switches are selected in the cockpit then only the
corresponding "color" is then visible to the glider pilot. Perhaps with
the "warning" being a steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to
help with fast recognition and a sense of urgency.

Other thoughts?

Darryl Ramm

June 26th 08, 02:21 AM

On Jun 25, 6:07*pm, Gary Emerson > wrote:
> How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
>
> > waggle does NOT work?
>
> I think this is a reasonably valid point. *There HAVE been a number of
> people who have misunderstood this signal.
>
> Perhaps something else would be better. *The question is what signal
> would be a good replacement. *You could have flashing lights on the
> towplane, perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. *The only thing is
> you'd probably have to install two lights. *Say one yellow and one red.
>
> Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
> quick we'll keep going. *Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.
>
> If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
> releasing when they didn't have to.
>
> As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of
> high output LEDs. *When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you
> have a single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in
> concept, but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). *That way
> the glider pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and
> they stay "on" for the duration of the tow. *If either the "warning" or
> "get off" switches are selected in the cockpit then only the
> corresponding "color" is then visible to the glider pilot. *Perhaps with
> the "warning" being a steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to
> help with fast recognition and a sense of urgency.
>
> Other thoughts?

? We need less complication. It is the 21st century, a radio should
not be out of the question. "glider on tow check spoilers" is pretty
straightforward. If that does not work and the glider cannot tow
higher then fan the rudder.

Darryl

Bill Daniels

June 26th 08, 04:02 AM

"Gary Emerson" > wrote in message
...
> How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
>> waggle does NOT work?
>
> I think this is a reasonably valid point. There HAVE been a number of
> people who have misunderstood this signal.
>
> Perhaps something else would be better. The question is what signal would
> be a good replacement. You could have flashing lights on the towplane,
> perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. The only thing is you'd probably
> have to install two lights. Say one yellow and one red.
>
> Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
> quick we'll keep going. Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.
>
> If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
> releasing when they didn't have to.
>
> As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of high
> output LEDs. When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you have a
> single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in concept,
> but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). That way the glider
> pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and they stay "on"
> for the duration of the tow. If either the "warning" or "get off"
> switches are selected in the cockpit then only the corresponding "color"
> is then visible to the glider pilot. Perhaps with the "warning" being a
> steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to help with fast
> recognition and a sense of urgency.
>
> Other thoughts?

The tuggie should condiser if a signal is needed. If they are climbing in
spite of open spoilers the best option is to wait until the glider could
release and land safely before wagging the rudder. A premature rudder wag
may have caused some of these incidents.

I wouldn't neccessarilly say radio is the simplest option. If a pilot can't
remember to close the spoilers, or notice that they are open, could he
operate a radio and fly a glider at the same time?

High brightness LED's are a really simple idea. Some tuggies could use them
as turn signals.

Bill D

Darryl Ramm

June 26th 08, 04:33 AM

On Jun 25, 8:02*pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> "Gary Emerson" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
> >> waggle does NOT work?
>
> > I think this is a reasonably valid point. *There HAVE been a number of
> > people who have misunderstood this signal.
>
> > Perhaps something else would be better. *The question is what signal would
> > be a good replacement. *You could have flashing lights on the towplane,
> > perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. *The only thing is you'd probably
> > have to install two lights. *Say one yellow and one red.
>
> > Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
> > quick we'll keep going. *Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.
>
> > If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
> > releasing when they didn't have to.
>
> > As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of high
> > output LEDs. *When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you have a
> > single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in concept,
> > but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). *That way the glider
> > pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and they stay "on"
> > for the duration of the tow. *If either the "warning" or "get off"
> > switches are selected in the cockpit then only the corresponding "color"
> > is then visible to the glider pilot. *Perhaps with the "warning" being a
> > steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to help with fast
> > recognition and a sense of urgency.
>
> > Other thoughts?
>
> The tuggie should condiser if a signal is needed. *If they are climbing in
> spite of open spoilers the best option is to wait until the glider could
> release and land safely before wagging the rudder. *A premature rudder wag
> may have caused some of these incidents.
>
> I wouldn't neccessarilly say radio is the simplest option. *If a pilot can't
> remember to close the spoilers, or notice that they are open, could he
> operate a radio and fly a glider at the same time?
>
> High brightness LED's are a really simple idea. *Some tuggies could use them
> as turn signals.
>
> Bill D

Exactly, but this was a two place ship and may have been at high
density altitudes. . The glider pilot does not need to operate the
radio, he just has to listen. Yes he needs to be tuned to the right
frequency and have the volume up, etc. That's what preflight
checklists and radio checks are for, and yes people will still get
this wrong. But if the glider radio is not working then the rudder
waggle can be used and ultimately if necessary a rock off or rope
guillotine/release (again preferably at altitude).

BTW that BFR (or spring checkout) I mentioned should involve pulling
the spoilers open on tow at altitude, and maybe different tow speeds,
and just leaving them flapping around as well to see what they do.
This will show what it feels like and you get to experience the radio
call/signals from the tow plane that result.

I've only had spoilers pop open on a DG-1000S on tow, hit a sharp bump
at a few hundred feet and they popped (not properly closed no doubt by
yours truly) the Piggott hook did its job and the noise of the
spoilers vibrating up and down gets your attention. For Piggott hook
equipped gliders I think it is worth demonstrating this as well during
a BFR/spring checkout.

Darryl

RRK

June 26th 08, 05:06 AM

On Jun 25, 11:33 pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Jun 25, 8:02 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Gary Emerson" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
> > >> waggle does NOT work?
>
> > > I think this is a reasonably valid point. There HAVE been a number of
> > > people who have misunderstood this signal.
>
> > > Perhaps something else would be better. The question is what signal would
> > > be a good replacement. You could have flashing lights on the towplane,
> > > perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. The only thing is you'd probably
> > > have to install two lights. Say one yellow and one red.
>
> > > Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
> > > quick we'll keep going. Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.
>
> > > If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
> > > releasing when they didn't have to.
>
> > > As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of high
> > > output LEDs. When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you have a
> > > single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in concept,
> > > but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). That way the glider
> > > pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and they stay "on"
> > > for the duration of the tow. If either the "warning" or "get off"
> > > switches are selected in the cockpit then only the corresponding "color"
> > > is then visible to the glider pilot. Perhaps with the "warning" being a
> > > steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to help with fast
> > > recognition and a sense of urgency.
>
> > > Other thoughts?
>
> > The tuggie should condiser if a signal is needed. If they are climbing in
> > spite of open spoilers the best option is to wait until the glider could
> > release and land safely before wagging the rudder. A premature rudder wag
> > may have caused some of these incidents.
>
> > I wouldn't neccessarilly say radio is the simplest option. If a pilot can't
> > remember to close the spoilers, or notice that they are open, could he
> > operate a radio and fly a glider at the same time?
>
> > High brightness LED's are a really simple idea. Some tuggies could use them
> > as turn signals.
>
> > Bill D
>
> Exactly, but this was a two place ship and may have been at high
> density altitudes. . The glider pilot does not need to operate the
> radio, he just has to listen. Yes he needs to be tuned to the right
> frequency and have the volume up, etc. That's what preflight
> checklists and radio checks are for, and yes people will still get
> this wrong. But if the glider radio is not working then the rudder
> waggle can be used and ultimately if necessary a rock off or rope
> guillotine/release (again preferably at altitude).
>
> BTW that BFR (or spring checkout) I mentioned should involve pulling
> the spoilers open on tow at altitude, and maybe different tow speeds,
> and just leaving them flapping around as well to see what they do.
> This will show what it feels like and you get to experience the radio
> call/signals from the tow plane that result.
>
> I've only had spoilers pop open on a DG-1000S on tow, hit a sharp bump
> at a few hundred feet and they popped (not properly closed no doubt by
> yours truly) the Piggott hook did its job and the noise of the
> spoilers vibrating up and down gets your attention. For Piggott hook
> equipped gliders I think it is worth demonstrating this as well during
> a BFR/spring checkout.
>
> Darryl

"Waggling the rudder” signal, like any other “secondary” signal is
perfectly OK.
THE PROBLEM most of those "absent minded" glider pilots have, is NOT
KNOWING a most important signal: The “Wave Off" signal. In my old
country, I was taught to release from tow plane only when I was rock
off. And only then. Period. As a result, I had a chance to see that
signal every time I took a tow. Hundreds times. I know that signal
very well. And to be safe you have to know this signal very well.
Practice, my young friends. What is wrong wit a mandatory waving off
the gliders at the end of the tow? Every day for practice…and once in
a lifetime for safety.
rrk

Jim Logajan

June 26th 08, 05:07 AM

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> High brightness LED's are a really simple idea. Some tuggies could
> use them as turn signals.

What if the tow pilot is also one of those automobile drivers who manage to
leave their turn signals on long after they've made their turn? ;-)

Some silly ideas:

Since the aircraft are attached anyway, one could just wrap the tow cable
with a couple strands of wire and rig things so the tow pilot can press a
button to zap the glider pilot, alerting them to check the spoilers.

An aft facing bull horn on the tow plane rigged so the tow pilot can speak
directly to the glider pilot sans radio ... and everyone else within a half
mile. :-)

Hey, there are such beasts:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9501416

"CAP will be using their new Airborne Public Address System which was
primarily designed for Tsunami warning and relief operations along the
Oregon Coast."
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/april102008/oregon_cap_041008.php

Alan[_6_]

June 26th 08, 07:00 AM

In article > "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> writes:
>
>I wouldn't neccessarilly say radio is the simplest option. If a pilot can't
>remember to close the spoilers, or notice that they are open, could he
>operate a radio and fly a glider at the same time?

He doesn't need to. He only needs to hear it.

Also, if he cannot fly and deal with a radio, perhaps he should be on the ground.
driving in the slow lane. with the turn signal blinking.

Alan

John Smith

June 26th 08, 01:20 PM

> What is wrong wit a mandatory waving off the gliders at the end of the tow?

Wrong is that I, the glider pilot, want to decide where to be towed and
when to release. Because I, the glider pilot, am in the air without an
engine after the release. No tuggie, no matter how experienced he may
be, will ever tell me when and where to release.

[email protected]

June 26th 08, 03:32 PM

On Jun 26, 8:20*am, John Smith > wrote:
> > What is wrong wit a mandatory waving off the gliders at the end of the tow?
>
> Wrong is that I, the glider pilot, want to decide where to be towed and
> when to release. Because I, the glider pilot, am in the air without an
> engine after the release. No tuggie, no matter how experienced he may
> be, will ever tell me when and where to release.

This attitude terrifies me as a tow pilot.
If the tug pilot waves you off- GET OFF NOW! You do not know if there
is an
emergency. If you don't want to be waved off in lift, discuss with tug
pilot, and his boss, if
you wish, later.
A tow pilot with a failing airplane does not have enough time or hands
to deal with a
stubborn glider pilot.
Been There- done That
UH

Michael Ash

June 26th 08, 03:51 PM

Jim Logajan > wrote:
> Some silly ideas:
>
> Since the aircraft are attached anyway, one could just wrap the tow cable
> with a couple strands of wire and rig things so the tow pilot can press a
> button to zap the glider pilot, alerting them to check the spoilers.
>
> An aft facing bull horn on the tow plane rigged so the tow pilot can speak
> directly to the glider pilot sans radio ... and everyone else within a half
> mile. :-)

How about setting up the equivalent of two tin cans and a string, with the
tow rope as the string? Of course it will only work when it's taut, but if
your spoilers are open then I imagine the rope would be pretty taut....

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

jb92563

June 26th 08, 04:25 PM

>
> As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of
> high output LEDs. *When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you
> have a single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in
> concept, but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). *That way
> the glider pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and
> they stay "on" for the duration of the tow. *If either the "warning" or
> "get off" switches are selected in the cockpit then only the
> corresponding "color" is then visible to the glider pilot. *Perhaps with
> the "warning" being a steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to
> help with fast recognition and a sense of urgency.
>
> Other thoughts?

People will misunderstand lights just as easily as a rudder waggle.

Its a training issue and they just need to know what the signal means
by practice.

It takes a bit of time to learn and mistakes WILL be made but that is
no reason to throw out the
standard signals becasue of a few.

Of the 10,000+ glider pilots I am sure only a couple dozen have
released on rudder waggles.

Thats 0.24%, and completely insignificant justification to change
anything but the rigor of those few pilots training who are
having problems.

Lights fail, radios fail, tow plane electircal systems fail and a Wag
or a Rock will still communicate with a glider on tow.

The signal system works just fine, its just that the receivers of the
signal are learning something new to them and sometimes
mistakes are made.

We should start a thread on Pilot Mistakes, and you can be sure there
will be 1000 hr pilots making entires there as well.

Ray

Darryl Ramm

June 26th 08, 05:10 PM

On Jun 26, 8:25*am, jb92563 > wrote:
> > As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of
> > high output LEDs. *When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you
> > have a single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in
> > concept, but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). *That way
> > the glider pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and
> > they stay "on" for the duration of the tow. *If either the "warning" or
> > "get off" switches are selected in the cockpit then only the
> > corresponding "color" is then visible to the glider pilot. *Perhaps with
> > the "warning" being a steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to
> > help with fast recognition and a sense of urgency.
>
> > Other thoughts?
>
> People will misunderstand lights just as easily as a rudder waggle.
>
> Its a training issue and they just need to know what the signal means
> by practice.
>
> It takes a bit of time to learn and mistakes WILL be made but that is
> no reason to throw out the
> standard signals becasue of a few.
>
> Of the 10,000+ glider pilots I am sure only a couple dozen have
> released on rudder waggles.
>
> Thats 0.24%, and completely insignificant justification to change
> anything but the rigor of those few pilots training who are
> having problems.
>
> Lights fail, radios fail, tow plane electircal systems fail and a Wag
> or a Rock will still communicate with a glider on tow.
>
> The signal system works just fine, its just that the receivers of the
> signal are learning something new to them and sometimes
> mistakes are made.
>
> We should start a thread on Pilot Mistakes, and you can be sure there
> will be 1000 hr pilots making entires there as well.
>
> Ray

What matters is the percentage of pilots that get a waggle and then
release by mistake. Open spoilers on tow does not seem that common -
so how many pilots per year get to see a rudder waggle? Clearly a
signal system does not "work fine" if we are seeing multiple crashes
and people getting killed - I assume you mean it could work fine if
more pilots were better trained and proficient. So I agree with all
that, but just becasue a radio might not work all the time is no
reason not to try to have more operators and tow pilots adopt a
procedure where if possible they use the radio first. Tow pilots also
need to understand how apparently easy it is for glider pilots to
screw up and if possible tow them to altitude before waggling. Not all
tow pilots understand how apparently likely a waggle may be
misunderstood - some tow pilots spend a lot of hours towing and it is
easy for them to forget how less proficient the guy at the other end
of the rope may be.

As a community we need to stop saying things like "the waggle signal
works fine", people are being killed and hurt. The reality is there
probably needs a significant improvement in training of glider pilots
and tow pilots to improve safety on this. Glider pilots recognizing
signals, positive checks, including visual of spoilers, deliberate
spoiler open on ground roll procedures, better understanding of tow
pilot issues by glider pilots, better understanding of impacts of a
low rudder waggle by the tow pilots, better use of radio where
possible, improved BFR/spring checkouts to include actually
demonstrating/practicing these things, etc. etc.

Darryl

Marc Ramsey[_2_]

June 26th 08, 05:12 PM

jb92563 wrote:
> It takes a bit of time to learn and mistakes WILL be made but that is
> no reason to throw out the
> standard signals becasue of a few.

Rudder waggle wasn't a standard signal when I learned. During my first
decade of flying (70s), rudder waggle was commonly used by tow pilots
with newbies (like myself) to suggest a point of release.

> Of the 10,000+ glider pilots I am sure only a couple dozen have
> released on rudder waggles.

I've done it, and I knew (in theory, anyway, what the signal was
supposed to mean). Grob 103, spoiler not properly secured at takeoff
(my bad), spoilers crept open during climb out, no dramatic sounds,
buffeting, etc. I could tell the tow wasn't going right as we tuned at
about 300 feet, continued slow climb rate as the tow pilot made a big
sweeping back towards the airport. When we got back over the airport at
1000 ft, he wagged the rudder, and I, fulling expecting to be rocked off
at any moment, pulled the release. The tow plane shot up like a rocket,
a light bulb lit up in my brain, and I looked back to see the spoilers
hanging out in the breeze. I think it clear what would have happened
had I been wagged at 300 feet.

> Thats 0.24%, and completely insignificant justification to change
> anything but the rigor of those few pilots training who are
> having problems.

I bet it's a lot more than 0.24%, I know of more than one tow pilot that
is very careful where they use this signal, from experience.

> We should start a thread on Pilot Mistakes, and you can be sure there
> will be 1000 hr pilots making entires there as well.

I had 1200 hours at the time.

Marc

June 26th 08, 05:25 PM

John Smith wrote:
>> What is wrong wit a mandatory waving off the gliders at the end of the
>> tow?
>
> Wrong is that I, the glider pilot, want to decide where to be towed and
> when to release. Because I, the glider pilot, am in the air without an
> engine after the release. No tuggie, no matter how experienced he may
> be, will ever tell me when and where to release.

I can promise you, if, I were towing you, and you did not get off when I
waved you off. You would be wearing the rope. I have done it before,
and I still have lots more rope available to me. Aside, from that, I
will normally take you where you want to go, but if, I want you gone,
You will be gone.

John Smith

June 26th 08, 06:19 PM

>>> What is wrong wit a mandatory waving off the gliders at the end of the tow?

>> Wrong is that I, the glider pilot, want to decide where to be towed and
>> when to release. Because I, the glider pilot, am in the air without an
....

> This attitude terrifies me as a tow pilot.
> If the tug pilot waves you off- GET OFF NOW! You do not know if there
> is an emergency. If you don't want to be waved off in lift, discuss with tug
....

You can misunderstand everything if you really want to, can't you.
Somebody suggested to wave off the glider at the end of *every* tow. My
answer was that in a *normal* tow, it's the glider pilot who says where
and how hight the tow goes. Period. Because he will have to deal with
the release and because he will pay the tow.

Of course *in an emergency*, the tow pilot has every right to wave me
off. More precisely, in a true emergency, I wouldn't even expect him to
wave me off but rather to just release his end of the rope.

Bob Whelan[_2_]

June 26th 08, 06:20 PM

jb92563 wrote:
>> As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of
>> high output LEDs. <Details snipped...>
>>
>> Other thoughts?
>
> People will misunderstand lights just as easily as a rudder waggle.
>
> Its a training issue and they just need to know what the signal means
> by practice.
>
> <Details snipped...>
>
> Lights fail, radios fail, tow plane electircal systems fail and a Wag
> or a Rock will still communicate with a glider on tow.
>
> The signal system works just fine, its just that the receivers of the
> signal are learning something new to them and sometimes
> mistakes are made.
>
> We should start a thread on Pilot Mistakes, and you can be sure there
> will be 1000 hr pilots making entires there as well.
>
> Ray

Panacea fixes...what a panacea it would be if a few of them actually
worked. (WARNING: Dry humor nearby.)

Some pertinent realities...
- Perfection is never an option.
- Panacea fixes aren't.
- Thought processes matter.
- Training is good, too.

Here's a thought process that has worked for me...so far. Being fairly
simple-minded, I struggle with remembering rules for rules' sake. I
compensate by a reasonably decent ability to remember WHY certain
rules/guidelines/suggestions exist...and I seek to prioritize things I
DO remember. (I care little about remembering trivia; I care a LOT
about remembering 'important stuff.')

Here's a couple of soaring examples:
1) Visual tow signals (work all the time, unless being towed in
[*really*] hard IFR) - In life and death terms, a strong argument can be
made that only one need be remembered, the wing-rock signal. None of
the others are indicative of (immediately) life-threatening (to you or
the tuggie) situations.

Can't remember what a rudder waggle (or any other
arcane/new/untrained-for/yet-to-be-devised) signal is for? No problem!
It's NOT the dreaded wing-rock...so no precipitate action is
necessary. Heck, you could even turn on the radio and ask, if your
Embarrassment Quotient hasn't been exceeded on that particular tow.

2) Landing pattern mistakes - THE one boo-boo practically guaranteed to
kill you in a landing pattern is the inadvertent stall/spin. I deal
with that not by trying to remember all of the books'-worth of advice
out there (mostly useful and sensible and germane), but by a
combinatorial thought approach: a) Kid(s) - don't DO that (i.e. the
inadvertent uncoordinated pattern stall)!!! b) Pay attention to Rule a).

Everything else rule-based falls out in the wash...requisite pattern
speed, requisite pattern coordination, requisite pattern pattern, etc...

3) Soaring-in-general - Soaring is real safe as long as you don't hit
anything (hidden assumption...that you don't want to hit).

For what it's worth, I can't recall learning any of the above from any
of my (generally excellent) instructors (and the comment is not intended
to be in any way derogatory or condescending). Nevertheless, I'm happy
with the (36-year) results-to-date. I did yank off on my (sole)
wing-rock received. I haven't inadvertently stalled in the pattern. I
haven't inadvertently hit anything I wasn't already intentionally aiming at.

Nor have I (yet) seen a rudder waggle...but if I DO see one, I'm pretty
certain I'm not going to yank off for mis-interpretational reasons...

Respectfully,
Bob - VRAM-limited - W.

kirk.stant

June 26th 08, 06:24 PM

Just this past Sunday I had a glider's spoilers open on tow just after
takeoff. ASW-19, behind the Pawnee I was flying, in Illinois, so not
a real problem - and easily solved with a quick radio call.

I'm a big fan of radios - and try to make radio contact with every
glider I tow before takeoff. When I fly club ships that aren't radio
equipped, I have my handheld clipped to my harness, with a hand
speaker-mike at hand, and try to establish contact with the tow pilot
before launching.

Easy, quick, safe.

That being said - we still need the standard signals as backups, and
everybody (on both ends of the string) need to think about them. Good
flight review material. Along with proper use of radios!

I confess, I had the spoiler problem solved by radio before I even
thought of the proper rudder waggle signal! Probably a good thing,
since we were at 500' at the time, and the glider's stick actuator was
a bit rushed at the time (second flight on type, I think).

Kirk
66

Ramy

June 26th 08, 06:44 PM

On Jun 26, 9:12*am, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> jb92563 wrote:
> > It takes a bit of time to learn and mistakes WILL be made but that is
> > no reason to throw out the
> > standard signals becasue of a few.
>
> Rudder waggle wasn't a standard signal when I learned. *During my first
> decade of flying (70s), rudder waggle was commonly used by tow pilots
> with newbies (like myself) to suggest a point of release.
>
> > Of the 10,000+ glider pilots I am sure only a couple dozen have
> > released on rudder waggles.
>
> I've done it, and I knew (in theory, anyway, what the signal was
> supposed to mean). *Grob 103, spoiler not properly secured at takeoff
> (my bad), spoilers crept open during climb out, no dramatic sounds,
> buffeting, etc. *I could tell the tow wasn't going right as we tuned at
> about 300 feet, continued slow climb rate as the tow pilot made a big
> sweeping back towards the airport. *When we got back over the airport at
> 1000 ft, he wagged the rudder, and I, fulling expecting to be rocked off
> at any moment, pulled the release. *The tow plane shot up like a rocket,
> a light bulb lit up in my brain, and I looked back to see the spoilers
> hanging out in the breeze. *I think it clear what would have happened
> had I been wagged at 300 feet.
>
> > Thats 0.24%, and completely insignificant justification to change
> > anything but the rigor of those few pilots training who are
> > having problems.
>
> I bet it's a lot more than 0.24%, I know of more than one tow pilot that
> is very careful where they use this signal, from experience.
>
> > We should start a thread on Pilot Mistakes, and you can be sure there
> > will be 1000 hr pilots making entires there as well.
>
> I had 1200 hours at the time.
>
> Marc

Thanks Marc for sharing your experience. I think we all capable of
making this mistake, even if we will practice the rudder waggle every
BFR. Even instructors can get it wrong, we just lost one couple of
years ago at Minden for the exact same thing. What concerns me as you
can see from the thread is that many don't think it is an issue, and I
am sure many tow pilots are not aware of the risk as well. Also I am
still amazed to find tow planes without operating radio. This should
not be allowed.

Ramy

Bill Daniels

June 26th 08, 07:34 PM

"Bob Whelan" > wrote in message
p...
> jb92563 wrote:
>>> As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of
>>> high output LEDs. <Details snipped...>
>>>
>>> Other thoughts?
>>
>> People will misunderstand lights just as easily as a rudder waggle.
>>
>> Its a training issue and they just need to know what the signal means
>> by practice.
>>
>> <Details snipped...>
>>
>> Lights fail, radios fail, tow plane electircal systems fail and a Wag
>> or a Rock will still communicate with a glider on tow.
>>
>> The signal system works just fine, its just that the receivers of the
>> signal are learning something new to them and sometimes
>> mistakes are made.
>>
>> We should start a thread on Pilot Mistakes, and you can be sure there
>> will be 1000 hr pilots making entires there as well.
>>
>> Ray
>
> Panacea fixes...what a panacea it would be if a few of them actually
> worked. (WARNING: Dry humor nearby.)
>
> Some pertinent realities...
> - Perfection is never an option.
> - Panacea fixes aren't.
> - Thought processes matter.
> - Training is good, too.
>
> Here's a thought process that has worked for me...so far. Being fairly
> simple-minded, I struggle with remembering rules for rules' sake. I
> compensate by a reasonably decent ability to remember WHY certain
> rules/guidelines/suggestions exist...and I seek to prioritize things I DO
> remember. (I care little about remembering trivia; I care a LOT about
> remembering 'important stuff.')
>
> Here's a couple of soaring examples:
> 1) Visual tow signals (work all the time, unless being towed in [*really*]
> hard IFR) - In life and death terms, a strong argument can be made that
> only one need be remembered, the wing-rock signal. None of the others are
> indicative of (immediately) life-threatening (to you or the tuggie)
> situations.
>
> Can't remember what a rudder waggle (or any other
> arcane/new/untrained-for/yet-to-be-devised) signal is for? No problem!
> It's NOT the dreaded wing-rock...so no precipitate action is necessary.
> Heck, you could even turn on the radio and ask, if your Embarrassment
> Quotient hasn't been exceeded on that particular tow.
>
> 2) Landing pattern mistakes - THE one boo-boo practically guaranteed to
> kill you in a landing pattern is the inadvertent stall/spin. I deal with
> that not by trying to remember all of the books'-worth of advice out there
> (mostly useful and sensible and germane), but by a combinatorial thought
> approach: a) Kid(s) - don't DO that (i.e. the inadvertent uncoordinated
> pattern stall)!!! b) Pay attention to Rule a).
>
> Everything else rule-based falls out in the wash...requisite pattern
> speed, requisite pattern coordination, requisite pattern pattern, etc...
>
> 3) Soaring-in-general - Soaring is real safe as long as you don't hit
> anything (hidden assumption...that you don't want to hit).
>
> For what it's worth, I can't recall learning any of the above from any of
> my (generally excellent) instructors (and the comment is not intended to
> be in any way derogatory or condescending). Nevertheless, I'm happy with
> the (36-year) results-to-date. I did yank off on my (sole) wing-rock
> received. I haven't inadvertently stalled in the pattern. I haven't
> inadvertently hit anything I wasn't already intentionally aiming at.
>
> Nor have I (yet) seen a rudder waggle...but if I DO see one, I'm pretty
> certain I'm not going to yank off for mis-interpretational reasons...
>
> Respectfully,
> Bob - VRAM-limited - W.As usual, Bob

As usual, Bob's views are sensible and entertaining.

As a slight fork of this thread, what happened to "guarding" the spoiler
handle? For as long as I can remember, I've positioned my left hand so it
will block spoilers opening on takeoff. (It works, I've caught a few
students attempting takeoffs with the spoilers unlocked.) That position is
also near the release knob which can be useful in student takeoffs.

As a further fork, when I owned an IS28b2 Lark, the little blue plastic
spheres that served as spoiler knobs disintegrated. I searched the Internet
for a replacement and found blue anodized gearshift knobs at AutoZone - two
to the bubble pack. (Why would anyone want two gearshift knobs?) Anyway,
they fit perfectly and looked really cool.

Except that on a winch launch, the acceleration would cause the heavy
gearshift knobs to unlock the spoilers - oops! The aluminum knobs got
replaced with custom made plastic ones.

Final thought, if you are going to undertake winch launch, learn to lock the
spoilers as part of the cockpit check - there's nobody up front to offer a
helpful signal.

Bill D

June 27th 08, 01:47 AM

Ramy wrote:
> Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
> learn from them:
>
> 1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
> - How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
> waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?
> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080603X00777&key=1
>
> 2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
> caused more accidents then we know of.
> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080606X00809&key=1
>
> Ramy

I favor the rudder waggle because it works IF the pilot is and remains
properly
trained.
I was not involved in this pilot's training and I did not witness
the accident but I spoke to the involved pilot within 2 hours of the
event. This pilot, with a Commercial Glider certificate, admitted that he
misinterpreted the rudder waggle (confused it with the rock off). This
seems to be a common
mistake in our sport. It is likely that on the day that he received his
Commercial Glider rating he would not have made this error but
subsequent training, the Flight Review, plus his own personal endeavors
to remain current, if any, clearly failed.

The only mandatory review of these procedures is the flight review. I
have begun a personal vendetta against this problem not only in training
new glider pilots but during all Flight Reviews. I urge all CFIGs to
emphasize this problem and I offer a couple of suggestions...

1. During the oral, instead of discussing the check glider signal and
the rock off separately, I treat them as a pair of similar signals
which must be considered together to appreciate the distinction between
them.
2. Just as we tell our students that a rope break or rock off can
happen on any flight, I stress that a check glider signal can also
occur on any flight and to be ready for all three on every launch.
3. Show the student both signals on the same flight. I instruct the tow
pilot to show the check glider signal at a safe altitude so if the
student releases by mistake, the recovery is not difficult. Then on the
same flight, the tow pilot rocks the glider off just below the planned
release altitude. Feedback from the students and pilots in for a BFR has
been positive, most stating that seeing both on the same flight really
underscored the difference for them.

These simple ideas are not revolutionary and you fellow CFIGS are
probably doing this routinely now. I think if we all work a little
harder on this one, I suspect we can make a serious contribution in
lowering the incidence of this problem.

Cheers,

Paul Corbett
ZZ

June 27th 08, 02:49 AM

Most glider pilots will only make the mistake of releasing on a rudder
waggle one time.. if they survive that.. and then a discussion is had at
ground speed = zero... they may remember.

But then again.. some will repeat the mistake a second time... As a CFIG ..
that bugs me..

As a tow pilot.. and I cant' get a radio call in because of all the unneeded
chatter on the CTAF.. If I'm climbing ok, I'll wait to make the radio call..
but if I'm not climbing and need those spoilers closed NOW.. I'll wag the
rudders.. if the glider pilot decides he needs to release.. he made the
decision and my problem as tow pilot is solved.

BT

"Ramy" > wrote in message
...
> Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
> learn from them:
>
> 1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
> - How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
> waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?
> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080603X00777&key=1
>
> 2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
> caused more accidents then we know of.
> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080606X00809&key=1
>
> Ramy

Ramy

June 27th 08, 05:52 AM

On Jun 26, 5:47*pm, ZZ > wrote:
> Ramy wrote:
> > Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
> > learn from them:
>
> > 1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
> > - How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
> > waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?
> >http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080603X00777&key=1
>
> > 2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
> > caused more accidents then we know of.
> >http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080606X00809&key=1
>
> > Ramy
>
> I favor the rudder waggle because it works IF the pilot is and remains
> properly
> trained.
> I was not involved in this pilot's training and I did not witness
> the accident but I spoke to the involved pilot within 2 hours of the
> event. This pilot, with a Commercial Glider certificate, admitted that he
> misinterpreted the rudder waggle (confused it with the rock off). This
> seems to be a common
> mistake in our sport. It is likely that on the day that he received his
> Commercial Glider rating he would not have made this error but
> subsequent training, the Flight Review, plus his own personal endeavors
> to remain current, if any, clearly failed.
>
> The only mandatory review of these procedures is the flight review. I
> have begun a personal vendetta against this problem not only in training
> new glider pilots but during all Flight Reviews. I urge all CFIGs to
> emphasize this problem and I offer a couple of suggestions...
>
> * * * * 1. During the oral, instead of discussing the check glider signal and
> the rock off separately, I treat them as a pair of similar signals * * * * * * *
> which must be considered together to appreciate the distinction between
> them.
> * * * * 2. Just as we tell our students that a rope break or rock off can
> happen on any flight, I stress that a check glider signal * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * can also
> occur on any flight and to be ready for all three on every launch.
> * * * * 3. Show the student both signals on the same flight. I instruct the tow
> pilot to show the check glider signal at a safe altitude so if * * * * * * * * *the
> student releases by mistake, the recovery is not difficult. Then on the
> same flight, the tow pilot rocks the glider off just below the *planned
> release altitude. Feedback from the students and pilots in for a BFR has
> been positive, most stating that seeing both on * * * * * * * * the same flight really
> underscored the difference for them.
>
> These simple ideas are not revolutionary and you fellow CFIGS are
> probably doing this routinely now. I think if we all work a little
> harder on this one, I suspect we can make a serious contribution in
> lowering the incidence of this problem.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Paul Corbett
> ZZ

Since you know the details of this incident, any ideas if there was an
attempt to use the radio first and if it was neccessary to waggle the
rudder at low altitude? Or are we just going to continue blame pilots
who missinterpret the signal?

Ramy

Jim Beckman[_2_]

June 27th 08, 02:12 PM

At 16:25 26 June 2008, R wrote:
>John Smith wrote:
>>> What is wrong wit a mandatory waving off the gliders at the end of the

>>> tow?
>>
>> Wrong is that I, the glider pilot, want to decide where to be towed and

>> when to release. Because I, the glider pilot, am in the air without an

>> engine after the release. No tuggie, no matter how experienced he may
>> be, will ever tell me when and where to release.
>
>I can promise you, if, I were towing you, and you did not get off when I

>waved you off. You would be wearing the rope. I have done it before,
>and I still have lots more rope available to me. Aside, from that, I
>will normally take you where you want to go, but if, I want you gone,
>You will be gone.

The indignant responses from tow pilots are missing the original
point. The first post suggested that *every* tow should end with
the tug signaling the glider to release. That does seem to be
a poor idea in itself, since the wave off would then become an
expected, routine event, and glider pilots would be prone to
adopt the attitude that it really isn't an emergency signal, just
the tow pilot's opinion. And the glider pilot may decide he
wants to stay on for another 500 feet, or to get closer to the
ridge, or whatever.

The wave off shouldn't be routine, it should be used in a
serious situation, and it should be reacted to immediately.

Jim Beckman

June 27th 08, 04:14 PM

Ramy wrote:
> On Jun 26, 5:47 pm, ZZ > wrote:
>> Ramy wrote:
>>> Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
>>> learn from them:
>>> 1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
>>> - How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
>>> waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?
>>> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080603X00777&key=1
>>> 2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
>>> caused more accidents then we know of.
>>> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080606X00809&key=1
>>> Ramy
>> I favor the rudder waggle because it works IF the pilot is and remains
>> properly
>> trained.
>> I was not involved in this pilot's training and I did not witness
>> the accident but I spoke to the involved pilot within 2 hours of the
>> event. This pilot, with a Commercial Glider certificate, admitted that he
>> misinterpreted the rudder waggle (confused it with the rock off). This
>> seems to be a common
>> mistake in our sport. It is likely that on the day that he received his
>> Commercial Glider rating he would not have made this error but
>> subsequent training, the Flight Review, plus his own personal endeavors
>> to remain current, if any, clearly failed.
>>
>> The only mandatory review of these procedures is the flight review. I
>> have begun a personal vendetta against this problem not only in training
>> new glider pilots but during all Flight Reviews. I urge all CFIGs to
>> emphasize this problem and I offer a couple of suggestions...
>>
>> 1. During the oral, instead of discussing the check glider signal and
>> the rock off separately, I treat them as a pair of similar signals
>> which must be considered together to appreciate the distinction between
>> them.
>> 2. Just as we tell our students that a rope break or rock off can
>> happen on any flight, I stress that a check glider signal can also
>> occur on any flight and to be ready for all three on every launch.
>> 3. Show the student both signals on the same flight. I instruct the tow
>> pilot to show the check glider signal at a safe altitude so if the
>> student releases by mistake, the recovery is not difficult. Then on the
>> same flight, the tow pilot rocks the glider off just below the planned
>> release altitude. Feedback from the students and pilots in for a BFR has
>> been positive, most stating that seeing both on the same flight really
>> underscored the difference for them.
>>
>> These simple ideas are not revolutionary and you fellow CFIGS are
>> probably doing this routinely now. I think if we all work a little
>> harder on this one, I suspect we can make a serious contribution in
>> lowering the incidence of this problem.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Paul Corbett
>> ZZ
>
> Since you know the details of this incident, any ideas if there was an
> attempt to use the radio first and if it was neccessary to waggle the
> rudder at low altitude? Or are we just going to continue blame pilots
> who missinterpret the signal?

>
> Ramy

Ramy:

Good question. There was no radio in the glider. It was a warm afternoon
at 4200 feet with light winds. The Pawnee had just been refueled. The
tow plane was achieving less than 50 F/M into slightly rising terrain
when he used the Check Glider signal.

Regarding blaming the glider pilot who misinterprets the signal...WHO
else should be blamed? Both signals were establish in advance for a
reason. You can bet that any tow pilot who values his skin knows the TWO
signals which may save his life. Isn't it reasonable to expect that the
glider pilot should also know and retain these signals as well? There
are only TWO. I applaud this tow pilot for having the cool for using the
signal when he did...he could have fed the glider pilot the rope. To be
clear, I am not siding with tow pilots here nor am I trying to hammer
this glider pilot. I really want to focus on the training and especially
the recurrent training.

That why I advocate that if glider pilots see both often enough, they
are less likely to confuse them.

Is every 24 calendar months often enough?

(Caps used for emphasis here.. I'm really not yelling.)

Regards,

Paul
ZZ

jb92563

June 27th 08, 04:31 PM

Nigel Pocock[_2_]

June 27th 08, 05:57 PM

I had a similar problem 2 weeks ago. someone was talking to me when I was
doing my final checks and I did not check that my brakes were closed and
locked. As soon as my Discus was airborne behind the tug the brakes popped
open which dropped me two feet on to the ground. The brakes then slammed
shut so I took off again - so they opened again! Repeat.
This whole sequence took about a second. I had my hand on the release
knob so I pulled off and then grabbed the airbrake lever that was flying
backwards and forwards bruising my hand in the process, and landed
normally straight ahead.
Lessons learned.
NEVER let your self be distracted on checks.
Have your hand on the release. There is not time to be groping for it when
things go wrong at low level.
The next flight in a mosquito on the winch I accidentally knocked the
flap lever into full negative with my knee, but that is another story.

Nigel

Bill Daniels

June 27th 08, 09:49 PM

Yes, glider pilots SHOULD know the rudder wag signal by heart but....

Typical training scenario: Instructor has arranged with tuggie to wag
rudder at a safe altitude so the student can actually see it happen.
Instructor then asks student to describe towplane signals which he does
accurately. At 1500'AGL the tug rudder wags as requested and the student
releases instead of checking glider.

Instructor: Why did you do that? What were you supposed to do?
Student *%&^$$$

Repeat above approximately three times.

Bill D

"ZZ" > wrote in message
m...
> Ramy wrote:
>> On Jun 26, 5:47 pm, ZZ > wrote:
>>> Ramy wrote:
>>>> Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
>>>> learn from them:
>>>> 1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
>>>> - How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
>>>> waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?
>>>> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080603X00777&key=1
>>>> 2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
>>>> caused more accidents then we know of.
>>>> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080606X00809&key=1
>>>> Ramy
>>> I favor the rudder waggle because it works IF the pilot is and remains
>>> properly
>>> trained.
>>> I was not involved in this pilot's training and I did not witness
>>> the accident but I spoke to the involved pilot within 2 hours of the
>>> event. This pilot, with a Commercial Glider certificate, admitted that
>>> he
>>> misinterpreted the rudder waggle (confused it with the rock off). This
>>> seems to be a common
>>> mistake in our sport. It is likely that on the day that he received his
>>> Commercial Glider rating he would not have made this error but
>>> subsequent training, the Flight Review, plus his own personal endeavors
>>> to remain current, if any, clearly failed.
>>>
>>> The only mandatory review of these procedures is the flight review. I
>>> have begun a personal vendetta against this problem not only in training
>>> new glider pilots but during all Flight Reviews. I urge all CFIGs to
>>> emphasize this problem and I offer a couple of suggestions...
>>>
>>> 1. During the oral, instead of discussing the check glider
>>> signal and
>>> the rock off separately, I treat them as a pair of similar signals
>>> which must be considered together to appreciate the distinction between
>>> them.
>>> 2. Just as we tell our students that a rope break or rock off
>>> can
>>> happen on any flight, I stress that a check glider signal
>>> can also
>>> occur on any flight and to be ready for all three on every launch.
>>> 3. Show the student both signals on the same flight. I instruct
>>> the tow
>>> pilot to show the check glider signal at a safe altitude so if
>>> the
>>> student releases by mistake, the recovery is not difficult. Then on the
>>> same flight, the tow pilot rocks the glider off just below the planned
>>> release altitude. Feedback from the students and pilots in for a BFR has
>>> been positive, most stating that seeing both on the same
>>> flight really
>>> underscored the difference for them.
>>>
>>> These simple ideas are not revolutionary and you fellow CFIGS are
>>> probably doing this routinely now. I think if we all work a little
>>> harder on this one, I suspect we can make a serious contribution in
>>> lowering the incidence of this problem.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Paul Corbett
>>> ZZ
>>
>> Since you know the details of this incident, any ideas if there was an
>> attempt to use the radio first and if it was neccessary to waggle the
>> rudder at low altitude? Or are we just going to continue blame pilots
>> who missinterpret the signal?
>
>>
>> Ramy
>
> Ramy:
>
> Good question. There was no radio in the glider. It was a warm afternoon
> at 4200 feet with light winds. The Pawnee had just been refueled. The tow
> plane was achieving less than 50 F/M into slightly rising terrain when he
> used the Check Glider signal.
>
> Regarding blaming the glider pilot who misinterprets the signal...WHO else
> should be blamed? Both signals were establish in advance for a reason. You
> can bet that any tow pilot who values his skin knows the TWO signals which
> may save his life. Isn't it reasonable to expect that the glider pilot
> should also know and retain these signals as well? There are only TWO. I
> applaud this tow pilot for having the cool for using the signal when he
> did...he could have fed the glider pilot the rope. To be clear, I am not
> siding with tow pilots here nor am I trying to hammer this glider pilot. I
> really want to focus on the training and especially the recurrent
> training.
>
> That why I advocate that if glider pilots see both often enough, they are
> less likely to confuse them.
>
> Is every 24 calendar months often enough?
>
> (Caps used for emphasis here.. I'm really not yelling.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Paul
> ZZ

Ramy

June 27th 08, 10:18 PM

On Jun 27, 8:31*am, jb92563 > wrote:
> On Jun 25, 4:17*pm, Ramy > wrote:
>
> > Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
> > learn from them:
>
> > 1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
> > - How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
> > waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080603X00777&key=1
>
> > 2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
> > caused more accidents then we know of.http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080606X00809&key=1
>
> > Ramy
>
> With all the options available I just think that releasing on a wrong
> signal is due to stress, loss of concentration and wanting to react by
> rote instead of reasoning out the situation and problem that may
> exist.
>
> As we know taking a little time to figure out what is going on is OK
> since the TOW plane can likely release you at will if things get
> critical for him.
>
> Even when I see a wing rock I quickly evaluate if there is a problem
> before deciding to release, ie airspeed, climb rate, hazards, spoilers
> etc so I can decide for myself if it was turbulence or truly a wing
> rock.
>
> The tow pilots have all confirmed that if they had a serious issue
> they would release me even without a wing rock if they needed to.
>
> I think using all options on hand to communicate is a great idea and
> the radio is a pretty good way to transmit a message, then of course
> you should use what ever you have at your disposal.
>
> Again I simply state that if a rudder wag meaning can be forgotten
> then so can any other kind of signal so what could you use in its
> place that people could more easily remember?
>
> I suppose a scrolling LED sign like a billboard perhaps but that just
> does not seem practical ;-)
>
> Ray

I think it is pretty obvious why pilots keep making this mistake: The
tow plane is climbing poorly or not climbing at all. If the pilot
suspects something is wrong with his glider, he will surely look at
the spoiler and correct the mistake, then no rudder waggle is needed.
However rudder waggles happen when the glider pilot did not notice his
mistake by himself, which means he is sure that something is wrong
with the tow plane since the tow plane is not climbing as expected,
and as such is anticipating to be waved off, and releases instictively
the moment he sees the rudder waggle... This type of premature release
is much worse then a rope break, since the spoiler are extended and
200 feet wouldn't be anought to trun around or even make it to any
landable place!
I think the only solution is mandatory operating radios in both glider
and tow plane and always make a radio check before take off. Even if
the frequency is busy at the moment, I think there is a good chance
the transmission will be heard due to the close proximity of the tow
plane and glider.

Ramy

Tinpilot

June 27th 08, 10:57 PM

At 20:49 27 June 2008, Bill Daniels wrote:
>Yes, glider pilots SHOULD know the rudder wag signal by heart but....
>
>Typical training scenario: Instructor has arranged with tuggie to wag
>rudder at a safe altitude so the student can actually see it happen.
>Instructor then asks student to describe towplane signals which he does
>accurately. At 1500'AGL the tug rudder wags as requested and the
student
>releases instead of checking glider.
>
>Instructor: Why did you do that? What were you supposed to do?
>Student *%&^$$$
>
>Repeat above approximately three times.
>
>Bill D
>
>
>
>"ZZ" wrote in message
m...
>> Ramy wrote:
>>> On Jun 26, 5:47 pm, ZZ wrote:
>>>> Ramy wrote:
>>>>> Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
>>>>> learn from them:
>>>>> 1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature
release
>>>>> - How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
>>>>> waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?
>>>>> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080603X00777&key=1
>>>>> 2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
>>>>> caused more accidents then we know of.
>>>>> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080606X00809&key=1
>>>>> Ramy
>>>> I favor the rudder waggle because it works IF the pilot is and
remains
>>>> properly
>>>> trained.
>>>> I was not involved in this pilot's training and I did not witness
>>>> the accident but I spoke to the involved pilot within 2 hours of the
>>>> event. This pilot, with a Commercial Glider certificate, admitted
that
>
>>>> he
>>>> misinterpreted the rudder waggle (confused it with the rock off).
This
>>>> seems to be a common
>>>> mistake in our sport. It is likely that on the day that he received
>his
>>>> Commercial Glider rating he would not have made this error but
>>>> subsequent training, the Flight Review, plus his own personal
>endeavors
>>>> to remain current, if any, clearly failed.
>>>>
>>>> The only mandatory review of these procedures is the flight review.
I
>>>> have begun a personal vendetta against this problem not only in
>training
>>>> new glider pilots but during all Flight Reviews. I urge all CFIGs to
>>>> emphasize this problem and I offer a couple of suggestions...
>>>>
>>>> 1. During the oral, instead of discussing the check glider
>>>> signal and
>>>> the rock off separately, I treat them as a pair of similar signals
>>>> which must be considered together to appreciate the distinction
>between
>>>> them.
>>>> 2. Just as we tell our students that a rope break or rock off

>>>> can
>>>> happen on any flight, I stress that a check glider signal
>>>> can also
>>>> occur on any flight and to be ready for all three on every launch.
>>>> 3. Show the student both signals on the same flight. I
>instruct
>>>> the tow
>>>> pilot to show the check glider signal at a safe altitude so if
>>>> the
>>>> student releases by mistake, the recovery is not difficult. Then on
>the
>>>> same flight, the tow pilot rocks the glider off just below the
>planned
>>>> release altitude. Feedback from the students and pilots in for a BFR
>has
>>>> been positive, most stating that seeing both on the
>same
>>>> flight really
>>>> underscored the difference for them.
>>>>
>>>> These simple ideas are not revolutionary and you fellow CFIGS are
>>>> probably doing this routinely now. I think if we all work a little
>>>> harder on this one, I suspect we can make a serious contribution in
>>>> lowering the incidence of this problem.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Paul Corbett
>>>> ZZ
>>>
>>> Since you know the details of this incident, any ideas if there was
an
>>> attempt to use the radio first and if it was neccessary to waggle the
>>> rudder at low altitude? Or are we just going to continue blame pilots
>>> who missinterpret the signal?
>>
>>>
>>> Ramy
>>
>> Ramy:
>>
>> Good question. There was no radio in the glider. It was a warm
afternoon
>
>> at 4200 feet with light winds. The Pawnee had just been refueled. The
>tow
>> plane was achieving less than 50 F/M into slightly rising terrain when
>he
>> used the Check Glider signal.
>>
>> Regarding blaming the glider pilot who misinterprets the signal...WHO
>else
>> should be blamed? Both signals were establish in advance for a reason.
>You
>> can bet that any tow pilot who values his skin knows the TWO signals
>which
>> may save his life. Isn't it reasonable to expect that the glider pilot

>> should also know and retain these signals as well? There are only TWO.
I
>
>> applaud this tow pilot for having the cool for using the signal when he

>> did...he could have fed the glider pilot the rope. To be clear, I am
not
>
>> siding with tow pilots here nor am I trying to hammer this glider
pilot.
>I
>> really want to focus on the training and especially the recurrent
>> training.
>>
>> That why I advocate that if glider pilots see both often enough, they
>are
>> less likely to confuse them.
>>
>> Is every 24 calendar months often enough?
>>
>> (Caps used for emphasis here.. I'm really not yelling.)
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Paul
>> ZZ
>
>
>

Ian[_2_]

June 27th 08, 11:06 PM

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:17:18 -0700, Ramy wrote:

There is more to be learnt from the other incident:

> 2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this caused
> more accidents then we know of.
> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080606X00809&key=1

<quote>
The glider pilot stated that he "could not push the stick all the way
forward to lower the nose" and the glider continued to climb out of tow
position ... The pilot selected full nose down trim, in response to his
limited pitch control.
</quote>

On gliders with a tab trimmer on the elevator, like the K13 in this
incident, full NOSE UP trim will actually give you more "elevator down"
authority, nose down trim will make things worse.

The trim tab moves down when you trim nose up. With the elevator as far
down as the obstruction would let it go, nose up trim up would make the
trim tab go down a little further.

A more common use of this phenomenon is when you are doing spin training
with a heavy pilot in the front seat. If you trim full forward you a
little more elevator up authority which makes it a little easier to get
the glider to enter a spin.

Ian

Tinpilot

June 27th 08, 11:57 PM

I always warn the tug pilot that I will open the airbrakes at an agreed
height. When the P2 notices the handle moving and the brakes coming out, I
tell him to watch the tug & stay in position.

When the tug gives the rudder signal, the pilot knows the airbrakes are
open and learns to associate the signal with the (likely) problem. He also
learns the need to close the brakes gradually rather than slam them shut.

I also ask the tug to wave us off at 100' lower than than the P2's
expected release height and I expect the student to release immediately.

I do this on every annual check that I'm asked to give. Failure to
recognise and act appropriately to a signal is reason for further
training. I've never had to fly more than two flights with anyone.

Edward

At 20:49 27 June 2008, Bill Daniels wrote:
>Yes, glider pilots SHOULD know the rudder wag signal by heart but....
>
>Typical training scenario: Instructor has arranged with tuggie to wag
>rudder at a safe altitude so the student can actually see it happen.
>Instructor then asks student to describe towplane signals which he does
>accurately. At 1500'AGL the tug rudder wags as requested and the
student
>releases instead of checking glider.
>
>Instructor: Why did you do that? What were you supposed to do?
>Student *%&^$$$
>
>Repeat above approximately three times.
>
>Bill D
>
>
>
>"ZZ" wrote in message
m...
>> Ramy wrote:
>>> On Jun 26, 5:47 pm, ZZ wrote:
>>>> Ramy wrote:
>>>>> Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
>>>>> learn from them:
>>>>> 1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature
release
>>>>> - How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
>>>>> waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?
>>>>> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080603X00777&key=1
>>>>> 2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
>>>>> caused more accidents then we know of.
>>>>> http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20080606X00809&key=1
>>>>> Ramy
>>>> I favor the rudder waggle because it works IF the pilot is and
remains
>>>> properly
>>>> trained.
>>>> I was not involved in this pilot's training and I did not witness
>>>> the accident but I spoke to the involved pilot within 2 hours of the
>>>> event. This pilot, with a Commercial Glider certificate, admitted
that
>
>>>> he
>>>> misinterpreted the rudder waggle (confused it with the rock off).
This
>>>> seems to be a common
>>>> mistake in our sport. It is likely that on the day that he received
>his
>>>> Commercial Glider rating he would not have made this error but
>>>> subsequent training, the Flight Review, plus his own personal
>endeavors
>>>> to remain current, if any, clearly failed.
>>>>
>>>> The only mandatory review of these procedures is the flight review.
I
>>>> have begun a personal vendetta against this problem not only in
>training
>>>> new glider pilots but during all Flight Reviews. I urge all CFIGs to
>>>> emphasize this problem and I offer a couple of suggestions...
>>>>
>>>> 1. During the oral, instead of discussing the check glider
>>>> signal and
>>>> the rock off separately, I treat them as a pair of similar signals
>>>> which must be considered together to appreciate the distinction
>between
>>>> them.
>>>> 2. Just as we tell our students that a rope break or rock off

>>>> can
>>>> happen on any flight, I stress that a check glider signal
>>>> can also
>>>> occur on any flight and to be ready for all three on every launch.
>>>> 3. Show the student both signals on the same flight. I
>instruct
>>>> the tow
>>>> pilot to show the check glider signal at a safe altitude so if
>>>> the
>>>> student releases by mistake, the recovery is not difficult. Then on
>the
>>>> same flight, the tow pilot rocks the glider off just below the
>planned
>>>> release altitude. Feedback from the students and pilots in for a BFR
>has
>>>> been positive, most stating that seeing both on the
>same
>>>> flight really
>>>> underscored the difference for them.
>>>>
>>>> These simple ideas are not revolutionary and you fellow CFIGS are
>>>> probably doing this routinely now. I think if we all work a little
>>>> harder on this one, I suspect we can make a serious contribution in
>>>> lowering the incidence of this problem.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Paul Corbett
>>>> ZZ
>>>
>>> Since you know the details of this incident, any ideas if there was
an
>>> attempt to use the radio first and if it was neccessary to waggle the
>>> rudder at low altitude? Or are we just going to continue blame pilots
>>> who missinterpret the signal?
>>
>>>
>>> Ramy
>>
>> Ramy:
>>
>> Good question. There was no radio in the glider. It was a warm
afternoon
>
>> at 4200 feet with light winds. The Pawnee had just been refueled. The
>tow
>> plane was achieving less than 50 F/M into slightly rising terrain when
>he
>> used the Check Glider signal.
>>
>> Regarding blaming the glider pilot who misinterprets the signal...WHO
>else
>> should be blamed? Both signals were establish in advance for a reason.
>You
>> can bet that any tow pilot who values his skin knows the TWO signals
>which
>> may save his life. Isn't it reasonable to expect that the glider pilot

>> should also know and retain these signals as well? There are only TWO.
I
>
>> applaud this tow pilot for having the cool for using the signal when he

>> did...he could have fed the glider pilot the rope. To be clear, I am
not
>
>> siding with tow pilots here nor am I trying to hammer this glider
pilot.
>I
>> really want to focus on the training and especially the recurrent
>> training.
>>
>> That why I advocate that if glider pilots see both often enough, they
>are
>> less likely to confuse them.
>>
>> Is every 24 calendar months often enough?
>>
>> (Caps used for emphasis here.. I'm really not yelling.)
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Paul
>> ZZ
>
>
>

Jim Beckman[_2_]

June 28th 08, 01:27 PM

At 15:31 27 June 2008, jb92563 wrote:
>
>The tow pilots have all confirmed that if they had a serious issue
>they would release me even without a wing rock if they needed to.

Which is a perfectly reasonable attitude, and just what I'd
expect. It leaves me with another question, though, for
the towpilots:

Why would you *ever* rock the wings when you want the
glider off, and right away? The only reason I can guess is
to save the rope, which seems like a pretty minor item
when the going gets tough.

I've asked a few tow pilots about this. Some of them said
the hell with the wing rock, they're just going to drop the
rope. One said that if he had time, he would rock the wings
as his left hand was reaching for the rope drop lever, but
the rope was probably going to go anyway.

Other options?

Jim Beckman

Ed Downham

June 29th 08, 10:57 AM

At 12:27 28 June 2008, Jim Beckman wrote:
>At 15:31 27 June 2008, jb92563 wrote:
>>
>>The tow pilots have all confirmed that if they had a serious issue
>>they would release me even without a wing rock if they needed to.
>
>Which is a perfectly reasonable attitude, and just what I'd
>expect. It leaves me with another question, though, for
>the towpilots:
>
>Why would you *ever* rock the wings when you want the
>glider off, and right away? The only reason I can guess is
>to save the rope, which seems like a pretty minor item
>when the going gets tough.
>
>I've asked a few tow pilots about this. Some of them said
>the hell with the wing rock, they're just going to drop the
>rope. One said that if he had time, he would rock the wings
>as his left hand was reaching for the rope drop lever, but
>the rope was probably going to go anyway.
>
>Other options?
>
>Jim Beckman
>
>

As soon as a serious problem (engine, airframe, out-of-position, etc.)
became evident, I would expect most tug pilots to dump the rope ASAP.

If someone took a launch at our Club with their airbrakes unlocked, they
would be dumped on the ground if it was evident (we specifically check in

the mirror on the roll for this). In the air, if the tug could maintain a
safe
airspeed & rate-of-climb, the tow would continue until the glider was in a

position where it could make a straight-in to the airfield with full
airbrake. If
the tug pilot was in any doubt, the glider would be dumped.

We will 'wave off' gliders if there is time/space to do so but will
_not_ use
the 'rudder waggle' signal as it is a) easily missed/misinterpreted by a

stressed glider pilot and b) more importantly, booting the rudder around
at
low height, low airspeed and high AoA is not terribly clever.

There are complications with using the radio to warn of configuration
problems with gliders. At altitude, fine. At low level (which will
probably be
the case with brakes out), it may mean the glider pilot taking his eyes
off
the tug and looking for the lever, which will be in an unfamiliar
(deployed)
position, then applying force to close it that may result in the stick
being
pulled back a bit as a reaction...

Our procedures are based on the (continued) non-recognition of a problem
from the glider end. The tug pilots will make every reasonable attempt to

correct this but will not endanger themselves in doing so. Having watched

incidents/accidents like this from the ground and the air, I am of the
opinion that even with prompting (signals, radio calls, undercarriage
warnings, etc.) the majority are too fixated to recognise what is wrong
until
they're on the ground and the stress levels are reducing.

[email protected]

June 30th 08, 02:46 AM

On Jun 25, 8:07*pm, Gary Emerson > wrote:
> How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
>
> > waggle does NOT work?
>
> I think this is a reasonably valid point. *There HAVE been a number of
> people who have misunderstood this signal.
>
> Perhaps something else would be better. *The question is what signal
> would be a good replacement. *You could have flashing lights on the
> towplane, perhaps mounted just above the towhitch. *The only thing is
> you'd probably have to install two lights. *Say one yellow and one red.
>
> Yellow means you've got a problem, but if you can get it fixed pretty
> quick we'll keep going. *Red means get off now or I'm gonna dump you.
>
> If you don't have two signals, I'd bet that we'd still have people
> releasing when they didn't have to.
>
> As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of
> high output LEDs. *When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you
> have a single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in
> concept, but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). *That way
> the glider pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and
> they stay "on" for the duration of the tow. *If either the "warning" or
> "get off" switches are selected in the cockpit then only the
> corresponding "color" is then visible to the glider pilot. *Perhaps with
> the "warning" being a steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to
> help with fast recognition and a sense of urgency.
>
> Other thoughts?

I don't know....

Our club drillsit in to us about the signals, has safety meetings
every year, and it just so happens I was behind the tow plane in a
2-22 several years ago when the Pawnee had an engine failure. We were
at 1800' AGL but I recognized the signal to release and did so... All
turned out OK. In that instance there was not a lot of time for radio-
comm, though I always listen to traffic while on tow and while in the
pattern.

I think learning the signals AND using radios offer the best way to
fly safe.

Pete Gaveras

Eric Greenwell

July 4th 08, 07:12 PM

Ramy wrote:

> I think the only solution is mandatory operating radios in both glider
> and tow plane and always make a radio check before take off. Even if
> the frequency is busy at the moment, I think there is a good chance
> the transmission will be heard due to the close proximity of the tow
> plane and glider.

I like having radios in both aircraft, but there are also other options
for some pilots:

*DG owners can install factory approved Piggot hooks that will prevent
the spoilers from opening completely.

*Pilots with Experimentally licensed gliders may be able to install a
similar device on their glider.

*Other glider owners can install a "spoiler unlocked during takeoff"
warning system. I did this using my Cambridge 302, which will sound off
if the spoilers are unlocked as the speed goes above 20 knots during the
start of the launch. This is a good choice for self-launchers, since
there won't be a tow pilot to help them notice the problem.

*Pilots buying gliders can choose one that won't deploy the spoilers,
even if they are unlocked. The ASW 27 (and later Schleicher models, I
assume) has angled spoiler caps to achieve this, and I think Mosquito
style glide path control flaps will not open unless held open.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Jack[_10_]

July 17th 08, 06:35 AM

Gary Emerson wrote:

> As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of
> high output LEDs. When both "colors" of the array are "on" then you
> have a single visible color that means "ok" (red and blue make green in
> concept, but in emitted light that combination doesn't work). That way
> the glider pilot can verify at the start that both signals "work" and
> they stay "on" for the duration of the tow. If either the "warning" or
> "get off" switches are selected in the cockpit then only the
> corresponding "color" is then visible to the glider pilot. Perhaps with
> the "warning" being a steady signal and "get off" being a rapid flash to
> help with fast recognition and a sense of urgency.

Are glider pilots required to demonstrate accurate color vision?

Jack

jb92563

July 17th 08, 04:11 PM

I have heard some really good points about the rudder waggle issue.

- Rudder Waggle at low speed, high AoA is more dangerous for the tow
plane(Stall/Spin sound familiar?)
- New signals will be just as easy to forget or get confused.
- Radio use is a good idea although both pilots will be busy enough
unless they have a stick mounted transmit button with a boom mic.
- Training the glider pilot to use a pre take-off check list is smart.
- Training the pilot to recognise signals is also a good idea.
- Having aircraft designed that don't extend spoilers by air pressure/
suction when left unlocked.
- Having Tow hooks that prevent full spoiler deployment while on tow.
(You need a little spoiler somtimes to prevent line slack)
- Use Flaps instead of spoilers on gliders.

No solutions that solve all the issues have been suggested EXCEPT
train, Train, TRAIN and RE-TRAIN the glider pilots on this issue.

I dont like the idea of changing a system for something equally as
faulted because a few incidents have occured.

Its a people problem not a technical problem that we need to solve.

Any technical solution will still rely on the pilot and is prone to
fail at that point, be it the tow pilot flicking the right switch for
the appropriate light signals, or using a radio when the glider may
have forgotten to bring it or not charged the batteries sufficiently,
or changing the signal to something else and the confusion of the
change itself.

If there was a practical alternative that was trully less inherently
faulty then I would be all for it, but the only practicle solution
suggested so far is
Training.....

Ray

Don Johnstone[_3_]

July 17th 08, 10:41 PM

At 15:11 17 July 2008, jb92563 wrote:
>I have heard some really good points about the rudder waggle issue.
>
>- Rudder Waggle at low speed, high AoA is more dangerous for the tow
>plane(Stall/Spin sound familiar?)
>- New signals will be just as easy to forget or get confused.
>- Radio use is a good idea although both pilots will be busy enough
>unless they have a stick mounted transmit button with a boom mic.
>- Training the glider pilot to use a pre take-off check list is smart.
>- Training the pilot to recognise signals is also a good idea.
>- Having aircraft designed that don't extend spoilers by air pressure/
>suction when left unlocked.
>- Having Tow hooks that prevent full spoiler deployment while on tow.
>(You need a little spoiler somtimes to prevent line slack)
>- Use Flaps instead of spoilers on gliders.
>
>No solutions that solve all the issues have been suggested EXCEPT
>train, Train, TRAIN and RE-TRAIN the glider pilots on this issue.
>
>I dont like the idea of changing a system for something equally as
>faulted because a few incidents have occured.
>
>Its a people problem not a technical problem that we need to solve.
>
>Any technical solution will still rely on the pilot and is prone to
>fail at that point, be it the tow pilot flicking the right switch for
>the appropriate light signals, or using a radio when the glider may
>have forgotten to bring it or not charged the batteries sufficiently,
>or changing the signal to something else and the confusion of the
>change itself.
>
>If there was a practical alternative that was trully less inherently
>faulty then I would be all for it, but the only practicle solution
>suggested so far is
>Training.....
>
>Ray

I agree it's a training problem and a technical solution is not the
answer. Technical things fail. The current system is extremely simple with
only 4 main "emergency" procedures

Loose sight of the tug - Release immediately (No exceptions)
Tug waggles its wings - Release immediately (No exceptions)
Tug waggles the rudder - Check airbrakes
Gliders flies out to left and waggles wings - Glider unable to release
The above can all be made by radio but the simple procedures above work if
radio is not fitted or has failed.

If a glider ot tug pilot does not understand these four things, and even
at my advanced age I can remember them, then further training is
indicated. If you don't understand the rules then you should not be doing
it.

I recommend the following as an essential read
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/clubmanagement/documents/aerotownotes.pdf
You made need to reconstruct the link.