Unpaved Landing areas

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
paved runway? The current books don't give it much thought and I
suspect because the writers are so new at this aviation thing, they
have little or no experience on anything but paved runways.
Part of the reason for this post was the resistance to more than a few
to not land on a great 2000' grass strip that has an Interstate on one
end, and trees on the other. I have no idea why they are afraid to
land on this strip. There are at least three grass strips of 2000'
length in this area and some that are longer (one is about 4000').
What has your experience been? I have no idea how much time I have
operating off strips of 1200' or less, grass, gravel, sand, etc and no
problems. Must be at least thousands of them, both in terms of take
off and landings as well as hours.
Ol S&B

[Dale[_3_]]

In article
>,
"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:

> How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
> paved runway? The current books don't give it much thought and I
> suspect because the writers are so new at this aviation thing, they
> have little or no experience on anything but paved runways.
> Part of the reason for this post was the resistance to more than a few
> to not land on a great 2000' grass strip that has an Interstate on one
> end, and trees on the other. I have no idea why they are afraid to
> land on this strip. There are at least three grass strips of 2000'
> length in this area and some that are longer (one is about 4000').
> What has your experience been? I have no idea how much time I have
> operating off strips of 1200' or less, grass, gravel, sand, etc and no
> problems. Must be at least thousands of them, both in terms of take
> off and landings as well as hours.
> Ol S&B

I used to as often as I could.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flypics/ghmidfinal.jpg

[gatt[_5_]]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
> How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
> paved runway?

Hardly ever. Insurance policies increasingly prohibit it.

-c

[Jim Logajan]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
> paved runway?

All the time!

Okay, there is a catch - I'm just a student pilot whose tiny number of
flights so far have been in a glider taking off and landing on an 1800 foot
grass runway. ;-)

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Jun 26, 1:19*pm, gatt > wrote:
> Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
>
> > How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
> > paved runway?
>
> Hardly ever. Insurance policies increasingly prohibit it.
>
> -c

Ah...that is part of the problem and why? Lack of experience on the
parts of the instructors who train pilots to operate of such strips?
And, why is that? Has to be an accident rate caused by pilots who had
no idea what in hell they were doing? What is happening to the
experienced guys who have a hard time landing on paved runways and
controlled airports? Are we nearing extinction?
Amazed at the rapid response to this post

[Mike[_22_]]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
> Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
>> How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
>> paved runway?
>
> Hardly ever. Insurance policies increasingly prohibit it.

Such is the case with my insurance. I suppose I could probably pay more for
the privelege, but there's not that many in which I care to land and the
wear and tear to my nosewheel plane just isn't worth it. Besides I can
always hitch a ride with a tailwheel buddy or rent a Citabria if I have a
turf runway itch I need to scratch.

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Jun 26, 1:22*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>
> > How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
> > paved runway?
>
> All the time!
>
> Okay, there is a catch - I'm just a student pilot whose tiny number of
> flights so far have been in a glider taking off and landing on an 1800 foot
> grass runway. ;-)

Well, there you are. Every landing is a dead stick! When I watched
the first shuttle landing aty Edwards AFB I made an outloud
comment...."Wowww there is the ultimate deadstick landing..."
I'll wait to hear your comments the first time you land on a paved
runway. Gliders are nearly the ultimate for flying and I hope you
stick with them. What great fun

[romeomike]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
> How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
> paved runway?

Don't get to anymore but used to very often, including in light twins.

[brtlmj]

> All the time!
>
> Okay, there is a catch - I'm just a student pilot whose tiny number of
> flights so far have been in a glider taking off and landing on an 1800 foot
> grass runway. ;-)

All the time, for the same reason. One exception - I have never landed
on anything resembling a "runway". It has always been a "field".

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Mike wrote:
>Such is the case with my insurance. I suppose I could probably pay more for
>the privelege, but there's not that many in which I care to land and the
>wear and tear to my nosewheel plane just isn't worth it. Besides I can
>always hitch a ride with a tailwheel buddy or rent a Citabria if I have a
>turf runway itch I need to scratch.

Strange. I've never had a policy that prohibited unpaved runways and I've
been buying 'em since 1990. Out here in the west, a large number of public
use airports have unpaved runways.

Unpaved doesn't necessarily mean wear and tear on the nosewheel. I've been
landing my Cherokee on strips like these for more than a dozen yrs. and have
never had any nosegear problems :

http://members.cox.net/jgalban/12f70900.jpg
http://members.cox.net/jgalban/1c180890.jpg
http://members.cox.net/jgalban/1ed9bf40.jpg
http://members.cox.net/jgalban/1fa9bf40.jpg
http://members.cox.net/jgalban/13e15900.jpg

There are a lot of very unique unpaved public airports in the country.
Your missing out.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

[gatt[_5_]]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
> On Jun 26, 1:19 pm, gatt > wrote:
>>
>>>How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
>>>paved runway?
>>
>>Hardly ever. Insurance policies increasingly prohibit it.
>
> Ah...that is part of the problem and why? Lack of experience on the
> parts of the instructors who train pilots to operate of such strips?

Maybe, I don't know. I did quite a few grass-strip landings with my
instructor during primary training. It wasn't until after I started
renting from various FBOs that I ran into the "no soft-field landings"
policy.

It's hard for me to blame the instructors; the ones I know are seasoned
pilots (I've avoided the CFI mills so far) who almost certainly wouldn't
have a problem. Sure wouldn't bother me to do them, either.

-c

[Ross]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
> How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
> paved runway? The current books don't give it much thought and I
> suspect because the writers are so new at this aviation thing, they
> have little or no experience on anything but paved runways.
> Part of the reason for this post was the resistance to more than a few
> to not land on a great 2000' grass strip that has an Interstate on one
> end, and trees on the other. I have no idea why they are afraid to
> land on this strip. There are at least three grass strips of 2000'
> length in this area and some that are longer (one is about 4000').
> What has your experience been? I have no idea how much time I have
> operating off strips of 1200' or less, grass, gravel, sand, etc and no
> problems. Must be at least thousands of them, both in terms of take
> off and landings as well as hours.
> Ol S&B

Wonderful question. I land on grass airfields quite often. A favorite
one is locate rather close to me anyway. http://cedarmills.com/airfield.htm.

I learned on 1800' less than paved airport south of Kansas City, MO a
long time ago. Never found that to be short. One time when I moved to
the Boston, MA area I checked out at the Bedford airport and, at that
time, no rental plane could land at a airport less than 2600' I think.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Ross]

Dale wrote:
> In article
> >,
> "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>
>> How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
>> paved runway? The current books don't give it much thought and I
>> suspect because the writers are so new at this aviation thing, they
>> have little or no experience on anything but paved runways.
>> Part of the reason for this post was the resistance to more than a few
>> to not land on a great 2000' grass strip that has an Interstate on one
>> end, and trees on the other. I have no idea why they are afraid to
>> land on this strip. There are at least three grass strips of 2000'
>> length in this area and some that are longer (one is about 4000').
>> What has your experience been? I have no idea how much time I have
>> operating off strips of 1200' or less, grass, gravel, sand, etc and no
>> problems. Must be at least thousands of them, both in terms of take
>> off and landings as well as hours.
>> Ol S&B
>
> I used to as often as I could.
>
> http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flypics/ghmidfinal.jpg

OH, wow.!

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Cubdriver]

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:19:44 +0000 (UTC), gatt
> wrote:

>> How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
>> paved runway?
>
>Hardly ever. Insurance policies increasingly prohibit it.

My home field (7B3 Hampton NH) is grass, and I'm insured!

It's certainly true that most of the airports I can reach are paved,
but 2B2 Plum Island MA has a grass runway at an angle to the tarmac. I
choose it if I possibly can because it's in much better shape than the
asphalt.


Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

>
> Unpaved doesn't necessarily mean wear and tear on the nosewheel. I've
> been
> landing my Cherokee on strips like these for more than a dozen yrs. and
> have
> never had any nosegear problems :
>
> http://members.cox.net/jgalban/12f70900.jpg

That runway looks better marked than some of the "paved" runways I used...

I must admit that the only runways I use nowadays are simulated (can I
argue that they are "not paved" ;-) ). But back when Jimmy Carter was still
in office, I flew off grass regularly.

I assume that at least some people still do - when I look at the local
charts, there are still plenty of small grass strips around.

Note: I still do get to ride in real life on occasion, but I am so rusty
that there is no way I would attempt to land something like the T-18 or the
Pitts that I get rides in - I did attempt a takeoff in the T-18 at Eau
Claire WI a few years back - good thing the runway was 150 feet wide - I
needed every inch.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:06:07 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> wrote in
>:

>How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
>paved runway?

Not very often.

Does this count?
http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/CA/Amboy_CA_02_w.jpg
http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/CA/Airfields_CA_SanBernardino_SE.htm#amboy

[Marty Shapiro]

Ross > wrote in
:

> Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
>> How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
>> paved runway? The current books don't give it much thought and I
>> suspect because the writers are so new at this aviation thing, they
>> have little or no experience on anything but paved runways.
>> Part of the reason for this post was the resistance to more than a
>> few to not land on a great 2000' grass strip that has an Interstate
>> on one end, and trees on the other. I have no idea why they are
>> afraid to land on this strip. There are at least three grass strips
>> of 2000' length in this area and some that are longer (one is about
>> 4000'). What has your experience been? I have no idea how much time I
>> have operating off strips of 1200' or less, grass, gravel, sand, etc
>> and no problems. Must be at least thousands of them, both in terms of
>> take off and landings as well as hours.
>> Ol S&B
>
> Wonderful question. I land on grass airfields quite often. A favorite
> one is locate rather close to me anyway.
> http://cedarmills.com/airfield.htm.
>
> I learned on 1800' less than paved airport south of Kansas City, MO a
> long time ago. Never found that to be short. One time when I moved to
> the Boston, MA area I checked out at the Bedford airport and, at that
> time, no rental plane could land at a airport less than 2600' I think.
>

Several years ago I looked into rentals at PAO. Every club I looked at
had, at that time (but not now), a rule restricting club members to landing
on paved runways of 3,000' or longer. PAO's runway is only 2,443'. Where
did they expect pilots to return the aircraft at the conclusion of their
rental?

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Kyle Boatright]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
> Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
>> On Jun 26, 1:19 pm, gatt > wrote:
>>>
>>>>How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
>>>>paved runway?
>>>
>>>Hardly ever. Insurance policies increasingly prohibit it.
>>
>> Ah...that is part of the problem and why? Lack of experience on the
>> parts of the instructors who train pilots to operate of such strips?
>
> Maybe, I don't know. I did quite a few grass-strip landings with my
> instructor during primary training. It wasn't until after I started
> renting from various FBOs that I ran into the "no soft-field landings"
> policy.
>

Is "no soft fields" the same as "no unpaved fields"? I could make a good
argument that it isn't.
>
> -c

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in news:e4ad2017-e174-478c-
:

> How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
> paved runway?

Couple of days ago and again tomorrow. Varied, but one as short as about
1300'



Bertie

[Margy Natalie]

gatt wrote:
> Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
>
>> How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
>> paved runway?
>
>
> Hardly ever. Insurance policies increasingly prohibit it.
>
> -c
We do all the time, we've never had a problem getting the "no soft
field" restriction removed. The field we fly into is a comfy 3,000 ft,
but we never use that much.

Margy

[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:06:07 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
> >How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
> >paved runway?
>
> Not very often.
>
> Does this count?
> http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/CA/Amboy_CA_02_w.jpg
> http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/CA/Airfields_CA_SanBernardino_SE.h
> tm#amboy

I used to fly my Johnson Rocket out of Frazier Lake, which is the only
irrigated sod airport in California. During the winter it got too soggy
and we used the parallel (paved) 30 ft wide taxiway. That got really
sporting with a 90 deg crosswind!

The best sod I have ever flown into is Leeward Air Ranch, in FL --
smooth as a putting green! I landed there and didn't know I had touched
down until the plane started decelerating on its own.

The hairiest was at Eustis, FL, when I landed there a couple of days
after some heavy rains. The grass was about 6 in. high. Touchdown
deceleration was FAST! It took a fair amount of power to taxi.

I wasn't sure we could take off, but decided to use full flaps to
produce max lift. I figured that, if I could rotate, it would fly; if
not, we had 3000 ft to play with. I must have left ruts on the
threshold, but got rotated and flew out.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 21:54:13 -0400, Orval Fairbairn
> wrote in
>:

>I used to fly my Johnson Rocket out of Frazier Lake, which is the only
>irrigated sod airport in California.

[Interesting stories snipped]

Did you ever land at that old crushed rock strip that used to be at
the north end of the Salton Sea? The one with the big hole at the
approach end, and a white line just beyond the hole as a threshold
marker.

Or how about another gravel field, Sun Hill Ranch Airport near
Adelanto: http://www.airnav.com/airport/CA70 ?

[Marty Shapiro]

Orval Fairbairn > wrote in
:

> In article >,
> Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:06:07 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
>> > wrote in
>> >:
>>
>> >How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
>> >paved runway?
>>
>> Not very often.
>>
>> Does this count?
>> http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/CA/Amboy_CA_02_w.jpg
>> http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/CA/Airfields_CA_SanBernard
>> ino_SE.h tm#amboy
>
> I used to fly my Johnson Rocket out of Frazier Lake, which is the only
> irrigated sod airport in California. During the winter it got too
> soggy and we used the parallel (paved) 30 ft wide taxiway. That got
> really sporting with a 90 deg crosswind!
>
> The best sod I have ever flown into is Leeward Air Ranch, in FL --
> smooth as a putting green! I landed there and didn't know I had
> touched down until the plane started decelerating on its own.
>
> The hairiest was at Eustis, FL, when I landed there a couple of days
> after some heavy rains. The grass was about 6 in. high. Touchdown
> deceleration was FAST! It took a fair amount of power to taxi.
>
> I wasn't sure we could take off, but decided to use full flaps to
> produce max lift. I figured that, if I could rotate, it would fly; if
> not, we had 3000 ft to play with. I must have left ruts on the
> threshold, but got rotated and flew out.
>

Orval -

Had Columbia (O22) completed their re-sodding of 11/29 before you left
the Bay area? After they finished, it was just like your description of
Leeward Air Ranch.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Jun 26, 8:54*pm, Orval Fairbairn >
wrote:
> In article >,
> *Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:06:07 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> > > wrote in
> > >:
>
> > >How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
> > >paved runway?
>
> > Not very often.
>
> > Does this count?
> >http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/CA/Amboy_CA_02_w.jpg
> >http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/CA/Airfields_CA_SanBernar...
> > tm#amboy
>
> I used to fly my Johnson Rocket out of Frazier Lake, which is the only
> irrigated sod airport in California. During the winter it got too soggy
> and we used the parallel (paved) 30 ft wide taxiway. That got really
> sporting with a 90 deg crosswind!
>
> The best sod I have ever flown into is Leeward Air Ranch, in FL --
> smooth as a putting green! I landed there and didn't know I had touched
> down until the plane started decelerating on its own.
>
> The hairiest was at Eustis, FL, when I landed there a couple of days
> after some heavy rains. The grass was about 6 in. high. Touchdown
> deceleration was FAST! It took a fair amount of power to taxi.
>
> I wasn't sure we could take off, but decided to use full flaps to
> produce max lift. I figured that, if I could rotate, it would fly; if
> not, we had 3000 ft to play with. *I must have left ruts on the
> threshold, but got rotated and flew out.
>
> --
> Remove _'s *from email address to talk to me.

Ummm ... not sure what you were flying but seems to me, FULL FLAPS is
in the drag flap area and not maximum lift. I can think of many
aircraft that state max flap for takeoff at 10 deg or whatever "one
notch" equates to. Now if you "rotate" at less than performance speed,
you're going to be in ground effect and perhaps get airborne but when
you get out of ground effect with that same low speed, you're going to
settle back to the runway with a high vertical velocity and no amount
of power will keep you from getting an enema from the main gear! Look
at airshow crashes when jet aircraft hit the runway trying to stop
that sink rate and they even have afterburner to help them out.
Takes some hard decisions to tell your PAX "we have to wait for better
conditions to get out of this mess I got us into."
Don't let that macho **** get you into a corner you can't get out of.
Trust me, it ain't worth it just to try to prove you are the ace of
the base. Don't let your rep become the "Ass of the base" .....?
Cheers
Ol S&B

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:06:07 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> wrote:

>How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
>paved runway? The current books don't give it much thought and I
>suspect because the writers are so new at this aviation thing, they
>have little or no experience on anything but paved runways.
>Part of the reason for this post was the resistance to more than a few
>to not land on a great 2000' grass strip that has an Interstate on one
>end, and trees on the other. I have no idea why they are afraid to
>land on this strip. There are at least three grass strips of 2000'
>length in this area and some that are longer (one is about 4000').
>What has your experience been? I have no idea how much time I have
>operating off strips of 1200' or less, grass, gravel, sand, etc and no
>problems. Must be at least thousands of them, both in terms of take
>off and landings as well as hours.
>Ol S&B


there is nothing quite so sweet as operating a Tailwind from a grass
green runway 100 metres shorter than the manual says you can.
(which I do all the time)

best story re unmade strips is mike flying a tosser as pax in a Cessna
172. they were doing a cross country up north.
mike looks out the window and says to himself 'bugger it that'll do'
which gets picked up over the intercom.
mike pulls off the throttle, applies heat and lowers landing stages of
flaps and wheels it around for an approach to ....nothing.
tosser wannabe works himself up into an appoplexic lather at the
prospect of there being no runway ahead, just ...nothing.
mike pops it in with out any trouble and shuts down to a tosser with
eyes like saucers.
'you cant do that!'
'oh dont worry you dont have to ...back in a mo' '
mike walks to the end of the wing and has a ****.

back in the aircraft the tosser gets himself all worked up at the
prospect of a takeoff ...on nothing.

later mike tells us of all the commotion. it was a perfectly level
grassy area as a flat as a billiard table ...and I needed a ****.


I would suggest that students are taken for a landing in an aluminium
aircraft on a gravel runway. the din can take you by surprise.
but other than that these people are so limited by their fears and
lack of real experience that they are a worry. totally needless
apprehension.

Stealth Pilot

[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 21:54:13 -0400, Orval Fairbairn
> > wrote in
> >:
> [i]
> >I used to fly my Johnson Rocket out of Frazier Lake, which is the only
> >irrigated sod airport in California.
>
>
>
> Did you ever land at that old crushed rock strip that used to be at
> the north end of the Salton Sea? The one with the big hole at the
> approach end, and a white line just beyond the hole as a threshold
> marker.
>
> Or how about another gravel field, Sun Hill Ranch Airport near
> Adelanto: http://www.airnav.com/airport/CA70 ?

No -- Idid not do much flying in that area. I did land at Giant Rock one
time and talked to one of the saucer people, though.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article >,
Marty Shapiro > wrote:

> Orval Fairbairn > wrote in
> :
>
> > In article >,
> > Larry Dighera > wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:06:07 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> >> > wrote in
> >> >:
> >>
> >> >How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
> >> >paved runway?
> >>
> >> Not very often.
> >>
> >> Does this count?
> >> http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/CA/Amboy_CA_02_w.jpg
> >> http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/CA/Airfields_CA_SanBernard
> >> ino_SE.h tm#amboy
> >
> > I used to fly my Johnson Rocket out of Frazier Lake, which is the only
> > irrigated sod airport in California. During the winter it got too
> > soggy and we used the parallel (paved) 30 ft wide taxiway. That got
> > really sporting with a 90 deg crosswind!
> >
> > The best sod I have ever flown into is Leeward Air Ranch, in FL --
> > smooth as a putting green! I landed there and didn't know I had
> > touched down until the plane started decelerating on its own.
> >
> > The hairiest was at Eustis, FL, when I landed there a couple of days
> > after some heavy rains. The grass was about 6 in. high. Touchdown
> > deceleration was FAST! It took a fair amount of power to taxi.
> >
> > I wasn't sure we could take off, but decided to use full flaps to
> > produce max lift. I figured that, if I could rotate, it would fly; if
> > not, we had 3000 ft to play with. I must have left ruts on the
> > threshold, but got rotated and flew out.
> >
>
> Orval -
>
> Had Columbia (O22) completed their re-sodding of 11/29 before you left
> the Bay area? After they finished, it was just like your description of
> Leeward Air Ranch.

I never landed on 11.29 at Columbia -- I always used the paved runway.
There used to be an "air snake" there that would grab the unwary.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article
>,
"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:

> On Jun 26, 8:54*pm, Orval Fairbairn >
> wrote:
> > In article >,
> > *Larry Dighera > wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:06:07 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> > > > wrote in
> > > >:
> >
> > > >How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
> > > >paved runway?
> >
> > > Not very often.
> >
> > > Does this count?
> > >http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/CA/Amboy_CA_02_w.jpg
> > >http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/CA/Airfields_CA_SanBernar...
> > > tm#amboy
> >
> > I used to fly my Johnson Rocket out of Frazier Lake, which is the only
> > irrigated sod airport in California. During the winter it got too soggy
> > and we used the parallel (paved) 30 ft wide taxiway. That got really
> > sporting with a 90 deg crosswind!
> >
> > The best sod I have ever flown into is Leeward Air Ranch, in FL --
> > smooth as a putting green! I landed there and didn't know I had touched
> > down until the plane started decelerating on its own.
> >
> > The hairiest was at Eustis, FL, when I landed there a couple of days
> > after some heavy rains. The grass was about 6 in. high. Touchdown
> > deceleration was FAST! It took a fair amount of power to taxi.
> >
> > I wasn't sure we could take off, but decided to use full flaps to
> > produce max lift. I figured that, if I could rotate, it would fly; if
> > not, we had 3000 ft to play with. *I must have left ruts on the
> > threshold, but got rotated and flew out.
> >
> > --
> > Remove _'s *from email address to talk to me.
>
> Ummm ... not sure what you were flying but seems to me, FULL FLAPS is
> in the drag flap area and not maximum lift. I can think of many
> aircraft that state max flap for takeoff at 10 deg or whatever "one
> notch" equates to. Now if you "rotate" at less than performance speed,
> you're going to be in ground effect and perhaps get airborne but when
> you get out of ground effect with that same low speed, you're going to
> settle back to the runway with a high vertical velocity and no amount
> of power will keep you from getting an enema from the main gear! Look
> at airshow crashes when jet aircraft hit the runway trying to stop
> that sink rate and they even have afterburner to help them out.
> Takes some hard decisions to tell your PAX "we have to wait for better
> conditions to get out of this mess I got us into."
> Don't let that macho **** get you into a corner you can't get out of.
> Trust me, it ain't worth it just to try to prove you are the ace of
> the base. Don't let your rep become the "Ass of the base" .....?
> Cheers
> Ol S&B

I used full flaps, as I indicated, to create max lift, as the field was
very soggy, and I have a 5.00X4 nosewheel and 6.00X6 mains, on a 2550#
plane with 18#/ft2 wing loading. The Rocket will fly (and climb) with 45
deg barndoor split flaps.

Once rotated and airborne, I was able to start flaps and gear up, but
the problem at hand was to break free of the soggy runway.

BTW -- my pax was test pilot for the Lunar Module training vehicle. He
voiced no objections, as we had plenty of start/stop distance.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:12:24 -0400, Orval Fairbairn
> wrote in
>:

>I did land at Giant Rock one time and talked to one of the saucer people, though.

I over flew Giant Rock once in the late '90s, but thought better of
landing in the deep sand. I'd want to walk the "strip" before
intentionally landing there.

There's lots of "saucer people" out in the desert:
http://www.lucernevalley.net/giantrock/
http://www.labyrinthina.com/rock.htm
http://www.integratron.com/2History/History.html
http://www.elfis.net/rnr/rnrx/giantrock.htm
http://www.crawford2000.co.uk/hopisplit.htm


Good recent and historic Giant Rock photos here:
http://havewebsiteswilltravel.com/community/view_where/Giant_Rock_Airport12.html
http://www.mbhs.net/more_photos.htm


I once did a low pass at the unpaved WWII USAAF tactical airstrip at
Essex, CA (scroll down):
http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/CA/Airfields_CA_SanBernardino_SE.htm#campessex

The weeds were too high for the PA28-235 however.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in
:


>
> Ummm ... not sure what you were flying but seems to me, FULL FLAPS is
> in the drag flap area and not maximum lift.

Oh, you'll get more lift, but as you say it's the cost in drag that usually
makes this not such a good idea. HoweverI got stuck in snow in a 150 when I
was a student and my instructor came to the airport I was stuck at and took
off in well over 6 inches of fluff using 30 degrees to get off. Gets you
out of the muck faster but at the expense of climbe performance.


I can think of many
> aircraft that state max flap for takeoff at 10 deg or whatever "one
> notch" equates to.

Well, it depends on what you're loking for and how much runway and gradient
you have to spare. Yo'll get an aiplane off the ground more quickly,
generally speaking, at a higher flap setting, but it will cost you in
climb.
Also, it's not bad technique to get airborne a little on the slow side in
ground effect on a soft field as long as you dont try to climb out of it at
the same speed you came off the ground. Best technique for performance is
to get the attitude right to allow the airplane to come off as early as it
can solidly do so and then to rotate to your climb attitude as smoothly as
you can at such a rotation speed to ensure you reach climb attitude and
your climb speed simultaneously. This ensures you have close to the optimum
alpha at all times as you accelerate in and then climb out of ground
effect.


Bertie

[john smith]

In article
>,
Orval Fairbairn > wrote:

> BTW -- my pax was test pilot for the Lunar Module training vehicle. He
> voiced no objections, as we had plenty of start/stop distance.

You had Neal Armstrong as your pax? WOW!!!

[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article >,
John Smith > wrote:

> In article
> >,
> Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
>
> > BTW -- my pax was test pilot for the Lunar Module training vehicle. He
> > voiced no objections, as we had plenty of start/stop distance.
>
> You had Neal Armstrong as your pax? WOW!!!

No -- Scott MacLeod -- he was the Astronaut rep at Grumman and also flew
the Lm Testbed.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:06:07 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> wrote:

>How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
>paved runway? The current books don't give it much thought and I
>suspect because the writers are so new at this aviation thing, they
>have little or no experience on anything but paved runways.
>Part of the reason for this post was the resistance to more than a few
>to not land on a great 2000' grass strip that has an Interstate on one
>end, and trees on the other. I have no idea why they are afraid to
>land on this strip. There are at least three grass strips of 2000'
>length in this area and some that are longer (one is about 4000').
>What has your experience been? I have no idea how much time I have
>operating off strips of 1200' or less, grass, gravel, sand, etc and no
>problems. Must be at least thousands of them, both in terms of take
>off and landings as well as hours.
>Ol S&B

I think it relates to experience and availability; occasionally to the type
of aircraft. We don't have too many grass strips to operate out of here in
the NE, that are also suitable for my aircraft.

For rental aircraft, there may be prohibitions agains landing on unpaved
runways.

I have a "mature" Mooney which (if the donuts are in good shape) has about
9" prop clearance and maybe 3-5" clearance at the gear doors. So, although
I'm not hesitant to operate off properly maintained grass, (and have done
so numerous times), I do have to be careful about those limits. (On the
newer Mooney's, removal of the gear doors is recommended in those
circumstances).

Probably my most challenging was 65B (Lubec, ME) which is about 2,000' with
trees at both ends, on a hot summer day. 1B2 (Katama) on Martha's Vineyard
is a popular destination and, when we lived closer, used to go there
frequently during the summer (5 minute walk from "beach parking" to the
beach).

Heck, when I was based at KASH, I used the grass adjacent to the runway
when the runway was being repaved, some years ago.
--ron

[Kai Rode]

>How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
>paved runway?

Not very often. I'm still in primary training however and since I'm about to
take my test soon, I asked my FI to let me try some landings on a nearby
grass field used mainly by glider pilots but also PPR for powered aircraft.
Almost all other airfields in the vicinity have at least one paved runway so
these were my first landings on grass and probably the only ones for a long
time. Here's a picture

http://www.eddh.de/x-files/appr-pics/EDLC.jpg

Apart from being a bit bumpier than a paved strip and the runway being
several feet lower in the middle than at the ends...no big deal at least
when it's dry. And wind correction is also easier because you dont get that
annoying sound when you don't fully decrab before touchdown. :) I liked it.

I can't understand why insurance companies want higher rates for the
permission to land on unpaved strips...unless it's got something to do with
the many private airfields in the US in dubious condition. Couldn't happen
here in Germany...you are not allowed to land outside an officially approved
airfield and if it's an official airfield, the operator has to guarantee the
safety of the field.

[Rocky Stevens]

>How often do you get to land or take off from something other than a
>paved runway?

Not sure if this counts, but I flew ultralights back when I lived in
Arizona, and the runways were all dirt. The biggest problem was when
there was monsoon the night before, the strip turned to soup and would
be closed for at least a day.

[Cubdriver]

On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:11:35 -0700 (PDT), Rocky Stevens
> wrote:

>Not sure if this counts, but I flew ultralights back when I lived in
>Arizona, and the runways were all dirt. The biggest problem was when
>there was monsoon the night before, the strip turned to soup and would
>be closed for at least a day.

You should try flying from a grass field in New Hampshire! From
December to April, it's always an adventure.

I once taxied up to the gas pump to find Bonnie the flight insturctor
had gotten out her ice skates and was twirling about on the glaze. I
have literally been blown off the runway *sideways* when a crosswind
combines with glare ice. With one Cub, I found that I could negotiate
the turns better if I switched to Left magneto; the engine ran slower
and I was more likely to make the turn.

And that's only when it stays cold! Inevitably, a freeze is followed
by a thaw, and the surface to mud.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com

[Mike[_22_]]

"JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote in message
news:8644438bd8ae6@uwe...
> Mike wrote:
>>Such is the case with my insurance. I suppose I could probably pay more
>>for
>>the privelege, but there's not that many in which I care to land and the
>>wear and tear to my nosewheel plane just isn't worth it. Besides I can
>>always hitch a ride with a tailwheel buddy or rent a Citabria if I have a
>>turf runway itch I need to scratch.
>
> Strange. I've never had a policy that prohibited unpaved runways and
> I've
> been buying 'em since 1990. Out here in the west, a large number of
> public
> use airports have unpaved runways.
>
> Unpaved doesn't necessarily mean wear and tear on the nosewheel. I've
> been
> landing my Cherokee on strips like these for more than a dozen yrs. and
> have
> never had any nosegear problems :

I agree completely. A well maintained turf runway is no problem. It's the
unmaintained ones that are hard on aircraft. Naturally unmaintained paved
runways are a problem too, but there aren't as many.

>
> http://members.cox.net/jgalban/12f70900.jpg
> http://members.cox.net/jgalban/1c180890.jpg
> http://members.cox.net/jgalban/1ed9bf40.jpg
> http://members.cox.net/jgalban/1fa9bf40.jpg
> http://members.cox.net/jgalban/13e15900.jpg
>
> There are a lot of very unique unpaved public airports in the country.
> Your missing out.

I've got probably 200 or so take-offs and landings on turf fields. The
number of them that I miss can be counted on one hand. Gastons, Cedar
Mills, and McGehee's come to mind, but as I said, I can always go with
someone else if I want to and I rent a tailwheel 3-4 times per year anyway.

[Cubdriver]

On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 18:28:24 GMT, "Mike" > wrote:

>Naturally unmaintained paved
>runways are a problem too, but there aren't as many.

Actually, I find it just the opposite. I know of three grass runways,
all of them smooth as could be. And the two paved runways I most often
fly to are terribly rough. Indeed, one of them is blacklisted by the
home airfield because it's too hard on tailwheels.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com