alternate engine in Falco

[Jonny[_2_]]

There are many aircraft that allow for a variety of engines. Some
engine makers even supply cowling/nose bowl kits for popular types
(Rans, Vans) etc.

So, what do you think of using a Jabiru 5100 (8 cyl) in a Falco in
place of the Lycoming io-360?

Jabiru is narrower and less tall, but is a few inches longer (but
might fit in an unmodified cowling given the different mount design).
Similar power, lighter weight.

I have heard the guys at Sequoia are a bit sensitive about even basic
unseen mods, but what do you guys think?

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Jonny wrote:
> There are many aircraft that allow for a variety of engines. Some
> engine makers even supply cowling/nose bowl kits for popular types
> (Rans, Vans) etc.
>
> So, what do you think of using a Jabiru 5100 (8 cyl) in a Falco in
> place of the Lycoming io-360?
>
> Jabiru is narrower and less tall, but is a few inches longer (but
> might fit in an unmodified cowling given the different mount design).
> Similar power, lighter weight.
>
> I have heard the guys at Sequoia are a bit sensitive about even basic
> unseen mods, but what do you guys think?


Can you do the weight and balance calculations?
And performance predictions?

That's what I thought...

[Jonny[_2_]]

On Jun 27, 12:30*pm, cavelamb himself > wrote:
>
> Can you do the weight and balance calculations?
> And performance predictions?
>
> That's what I thought...

I'd need help with the balance (CoG) since the nose would be about
70lb lighter (based on engine weight alone, not sure about mounts).

Would have thought performance would be similar with Jabiru @170hp and
the Lycoming @ 180hp.

I think the fuel usage would be better with the Jabiru.

I'm considering building a Falco, but as an AUS based builder I
thought a local engine (of a more modern design) might be an option.

The Falco is a great aircraft, but I see no reason why all aspects of
the specification need be stuck in the 1950s. I'm all for glass
cockpits, updated systems and a more modern powerplant. I have no
plans to alter the look or aerodynamics of the aircraft.

[Lou]

> I'd need help with the balance (CoG) since the nose would be about
> 70lb lighter (based on engine weight alone, not sure about mounts).
>
> Would have thought performance would be similar with Jabiru @170hp and
> the Lycoming @ 180hp.
>

70 lbs is quite a bit difference. Don't be surprised if you have
to move that engine forward for the W&B and to build
a new cowling. Sequoia may not publicly back the idea,
but I wouldn't be surprised if they kept in touch just to see
how it's working. Also everyone involved must remember that
this is an experimental category, so have fun experimenting.
Lou

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Lou" > wrote

> 70 lbs is quite a bit difference. Don't be surprised if you have
> to move that engine forward for the W&B and to build
> a new cowling. Sequoia may not publicly back the idea,
> but I wouldn't be surprised if they kept in touch just to see
> how it's working. Also everyone involved must remember that
> this is an experimental category, so have fun experimenting.

I agree, and also be thinking about the changes a cowl further forward will
change the aerodynamics.

I would think an aerodynamicist would recommend adding some area to the
vertical and horizontal stabilizer, by adding some width and height, or
other profile changes, or extending the length of the fuselage to get a
longer tail moment arms.

I think the Falco probably is designed with the tail areas at close to
minimum areas to maximize performance. If there is area added in front of
the center of pressure, and not compensated with changes behind the center,
you will definitely become a test pilot in another critical way.
--
Jim in NC

[stol]

On Jun 26, 10:30*pm, Jonny > wrote:
> There are many aircraft that allow for a variety of engines. Some
> engine makers even supply cowling/nose bowl kits for popular types
> (Rans, Vans) etc.
>
> So, what do you think of using a Jabiru 5100 (8 cyl) in a Falco in
> place of the Lycoming io-360?
>
> Jabiru is narrower and less tall, but is a few inches longer (but
> might fit in an unmodified cowling given the different mount design).
> Similar power, lighter weight.
>
> I have heard the guys at Sequoia are a bit sensitive about even basic
> unseen mods, but what do you guys think?

One other thing to think about is the Jabiru 5100 makes its peak power
at 3300 rpms.. That will drastically reduce the diameter of your
prop to keep the tips from going supersonic.Don't get me wrong, I am a
machinist and that motor is a work of art from the machining
standpoint. A fellow Zenith 801 guy installed the 8 cyl Jabiru and he
didn't factor in the loss of prop diameter, A very needed thing in a
slow flying STOL plane. He still hasn't flown his creation yet but the
numbers say @ 2700 rpms, with a 76" dia prop the Motor will be making
somewhere in the low 140 HP range. I my opinion not enough power for
an 801. If the Sequoia can handle a small diameter prop then this
might be a perfect marriage. PS, I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn
express last night either. :<)

Ben
www.haaspowerair.com

[Michael Henry[_2_]]

> I agree, and also be thinking about the changes a cowl further forward will
> change the aerodynamics.

In a plane like the Falco I'd also be thinking about the aesthetics!
From that point of view it might be better to put 70 pounds of lead in
the nose and keep the original cowl :(

[Michael Henry[_2_]]

> One other thing to think about is the Jabiru 5100 makes its peak power
> at 3300 rpms.

> the numbers say @ 2700 rpms, with a 76" dia prop the Motor will be making
> somewhere in the low 140 HP range.


According to Jabiru:

Power Rating
170 hp @ 2700 rpm continuous, 180 hp @ 3000 rpm intermittent

http://www.jabiru.net.au/8%20cylinderbodyFrame-1.htm

[stol]

On Jun 28, 4:40*am, Michael Henry >
wrote:
> > One other thing to think about is the Jabiru 5100 makes its peak power
> > at 3300 rpms.
> > the numbers say @ 2700 rpms, with a 76" dia prop the Motor will be making
> > somewhere in the low 140 HP range.
>
> According to Jabiru:
>
> Power Rating
> 170 hp @ 2700 rpm continuous, 180 hp @ 3000 rpm intermittent
>
> http://www.jabiru.net.au/8%20cylinderbodyFrame-1.htm

I stand corrected. When I looked at that engine back a few years ago
@OSH they were claiming 180@3300. They must have lowered their "sweet
spot"...

Ben,

[Lou]

On Jun 28, 5:37 am, Michael Henry >
wrote:
> > I agree, and also be thinking about the changes a cowl further forward will
> > change the aerodynamics.
>
> In a plane like the Falco I'd also be thinking about the aesthetics!
> From that point of view it might be better to put 70 pounds of lead in
> the nose and keep the original cowl :(

Put in a 10 gallon header tank.
Lou

[Michael Henry[_2_]]

Have you looked at the Furio?

http://www.falcomposite.com/

[Jonny[_2_]]

On Jun 29, 9:06*am, Michael Henry >
wrote:
> Have you looked at the Furio?
>
> http://www.falcomposite.com/

Nice. I will keep an eye on these guys.

My initial plan was to get a Jabiru built quickly so I could fly it
while I spend years building a timber Falco, but perhaps I can do
things differently...

[Lou]

On Jun 29, 6:48 pm, Jonny > wrote:
> On Jun 29, 9:06 am, Michael Henry >
> wrote:
>
> > Have you looked at the Furio?
>
> >http://www.falcomposite.com/
>
> Nice. I will keep an eye on these guys.
>
> My initial plan was to get a Jabiru built quickly so I could fly it
> while I spend years building a timber Falco, but perhaps I can do
> things differently...

Thats gotta cost.
Lou

[Jonny[_2_]]

On Jun 30, 4:58*pm, Lou > wrote:
> On Jun 29, 6:48 pm, Jonny > wrote:
>
> > On Jun 29, 9:06 am, Michael Henry >
> > wrote:
>
> > > Have you looked at the Furio?
>
> > >http://www.falcomposite.com/
>
> > Nice. I will keep an eye on these guys.
>
> > My initial plan was to get a Jabiru built quickly so I could fly it
> > while I spend years building a timber Falco, but perhaps I can do
> > things differently...
>
> Thats gotta cost.
> * Lou

Well, a timber Falco was going to cost a lot of time. I'm a ex-
highschool woodwork teacher, so I can purchase the minimum of parts
from Sequoia.

A well built Jabiru will sell later when I need the $ to finish the
Falco.

However, just going straight to a composite Falco (the Furio) might be
quicker and cheaper all round.

[[email protected]]

On Jun 27, 7:03 am, "Morgans" > wrote:
> I think the Falco probably is designed with the tail areas at close to
> minimum areas to maximize performance. If there is area added in front of
> the center of pressure, and not compensated with changes behind the center,
> you will definitely become a test pilot in another critical way.

The engine in my Jodel is 11" further forward than blueprinted
to get the balance where it was supposed to be, so the cowling is a
long one. No changes were made to the tail, and the airplane hunts
around laterally in rugh air, and when I want to sideslip, the
airplane is eager to impress me with how far sideways it can go. Drops
like a rock. The translated blueprints changes a bunch of stuff, like
going from mahogany ply to birch, adding a tailwheel insterad of a
skid, covering plywood areas with fabric, and so on. It all adds up to
a heavier airplane and most of that weight is behind the CG. Many
Jodel builders had the same problem.

Dan

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Jun 28, 6:06*pm, Michael Henry >
wrote:

> http://www.falcomposite.com/

Oh my gosh! The Exploding Plastic Inevitable is here!