Re: U-2 pilots: allowed to rejoin- into BOP story

[a425couple]

"Michael Shirley" > wrote
> Matt Wiser > wrote:
>> --documentary on the History Channel about the U-2 and
>> they had several of the pilots recruited by the CIA from
>> the USAF to fly the missions. Once the AF asserted
>> control of the U-2s from the CIA, were the Agency pilots
>> allowed to rejoin the USAF, a la
>> some of the guys who flew for Air America (or similar outfits)?

I could be wrong, probably should keep quiet,
but maybe can add my understanding & a thought process.
I've added two relevant newsgroups.

> Those that wanted to, yes.

I'd certainly agree with that.

> They were sheep dipped,
> (which means that they were wearing CIA colors of convenience).

First line has interesting term, second is mostly fine.

> They weren't really out of the Air Force anyway.

Ahhh? Correctness of above depends on reader's
interpretation, (and kinda on how things turn out).

While I was in the USMC, I got to know well enough
a salty, quite competent SNCO. He once related to me
a story of a kinda similar type thing.
His story as best I can recall with current wording:
"So as the 1960's started I was happy I'd found a
good life in the Corps. Far better than life in my
neighborhood (he was Hispanic). I enjoyed life as a corporal (?)
and the Corps felt I was a good leader and a good trainer.
Then an officer I trusted pulled me aside and took
me to hear a person trying to recruit me for something
else. It sounded interesting, but risky to me to get out of
the Corps. I asked questions, but all the officer would say
is, "You know the Marines will alway take care of their own."
I took that as good enough guarantee --!?--
and went for it. I was discharged and my file was closed.
So then I was at this camp trying to do my best to train this
rather strange group.

"The mission/invasion real quickly became a total clusterf-k!
We were so pinned down, couldn't dig foxholes, I just
kept my head down and wiggled my way lower and lower
in the sand. Gradually it became clear that we were not
going to get support, and this was not likely to get better.
Seemed like a horrible fate, get killed or captured, and
the record was clear - I'd left the Marines, forgotten loyalty
to USA, and gone and joined a crazy whacko group
as a mercinary.

"As the day wore on there was a bit of a lull, I told
my people what I was going to try - and they could stay
where they were in 'hull defilade' in the sand or try it
with me. I crawled back down to the water, then kept
going.

"I switched to a back float and just kept slowly kicking.
I felt surprised and very happy as I got out 100-200-300
yards. I was mostly out of range and I had not been hit.
Then realized, I had no realistic goal! But it was
good to be just alive and swimming, so just kept going
for hours. Comtemplated life and choices.
Really surprised me when much later I bumped into
a ship's small boat. They had spotted me and decided
to check me out. Good guys and I was saved.
I'd made it in good shape out of Cuba's Bay of Pigs.

"I enlisted back into the Corps. Got fast tracked back
to and above my prior rank. I ain't gonna leave it again!"

Heck, I'll admit I'm not 100% positive about the exact truth
positive in many things. I believed this story then, and now.
But, I'll accept, there is always the possibility this SNCO
was just telling me a 'sea story'. Except he did not start
it with the obligatory "Now this is no ****!"
Comments or other opinions on this are welcomed.

- I gather that means time "on loan" to the Agency counted
- towards promotions, retirement, etc.?

IMHO, certainly in the end result - yes.
But, pretty sure it was not done concurrently
(at timings with 'peers') and quite possible it was not done
immeadiately at 'reentry' - might have been in stages.

[Michael Shirley]

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 08:52:18 -0700, a425couple >
wrote:


>> Those that wanted to, yes.
>
> I'd certainly agree with that.
>
>> They were sheep dipped, (which means that they were wearing CIA colors
>> of convenience).
>
> First line has interesting term, second is mostly fine.

Yup. I'd give a lot to know who came up with it. Where I come from,
sheep dipped means that you've walked up a ramp, fell over the edge into a
tank that's over your head so that the solution kills ticks and things. And
it usually only happens to sheep, so I'm kinda curious myself.
>
>> They weren't really out of the Air Force anyway.
>
> Ahhh? Correctness of above depends on reader's interpretation, (and
> kinda on how things turn out).

Yup. If you got sheep dipped, you technically resigned from the
service, but you were still there. It's one of those things that came
under the heading of "plausable denial". The idea was that if you were
technically a civilian, the people you were out to screw with, couldn't
come back and claim an act of war. John Foster Dulles, Eisenhower's
Secretary of State came up with it, and his spooky brother, Allen Dulles,
applied it at the CIA.

>
> While I was in the USMC, I got to know well enough a salty, quite
> competent SNCO. He once related to me a story of a kinda similar type
> thing.
> His story as best I can recall with current wording:
> "So as the 1960's started I was happy I'd found a good life in the
> Corps. Far better than life in my neighborhood (he was Hispanic). I
> enjoyed life as a corporal (?) and the Corps felt I was a good leader
> and a good trainer. Then an officer I trusted pulled me aside and took
> me to hear a person trying to recruit me for something else. It sounded
> interesting, but risky to me to get out of the Corps. I asked
> questions, but all the officer would say is, "You know the Marines will
> alway take care of their own." I took that as good enough guarantee
> --!?--
> and went for it. I was discharged and my file was closed.
> So then I was at this camp trying to do my best to train this rather
> strange group.
>
> "The mission/invasion real quickly became a total clusterf-k!
> We were so pinned down, couldn't dig foxholes, I just kept my head down
> and wiggled my way lower and lower in the sand. Gradually it became
> clear that we were not going to get support, and this was not likely to
> get better. Seemed like a horrible fate, get killed or captured, and
> the record was clear - I'd left the Marines, forgotten loyalty to USA,
> and gone and joined a crazy whacko group as a mercinary.

Sounds like Brigade 2506-- the guys who did the Bay Of Pigs
Invasion.

>
> "As the day wore on there was a bit of a lull, I told my people what I
> was going to try - and they could stay where they were in 'hull
> defilade' in the sand or try it with me. I crawled back down to the
> water, then kept going. "I switched to a back float and just kept
> slowly kicking. I felt surprised and very happy as I got out
> 100-200-300 yards. I was mostly out of range and I had not been hit.
> Then realized, I had no realistic goal! But it was good to be just
> alive and swimming, so just kept going for hours. Comtemplated life and
> choices.
> Really surprised me when much later I bumped into a ship's small boat.
> They had spotted me and decided to check me out. Good guys and I was
> saved. I'd made it in good shape out of Cuba's Bay of Pigs.

Yup. They didn't stop there. There was a sort of half assed maritime
war between some odd boats that the CIA bought for the Alpha 66 and Omega-7
guys, to include the ex-Navy minesweeper, Rex, which had already seen
service
with the CIA during the action in the Dominican Republic. She had
machineguns
and 75mm recoiless rifles as armament.

Part of the deal over the Cuban missile crisis was that the naval
actions stopped and that included the covert operation surrounding the Rex
and a half dozen other boats.
>
> "I enlisted back into the Corps. Got fast tracked back to and above my
> prior rank. I ain't gonna leave it again!"
>
> Heck, I'll admit I'm not 100% positive about the exact truth positive in
> many things. I believed this story then, and now.
> But, I'll accept, there is always the possibility this SNCO was just
> telling me a 'sea story'. Except he did not start it with the
> obligatory "Now this is no ****!"
> Comments or other opinions on this are welcomed.

Sounds about right. They sheep dipped a lot of guys for that
operation. The B-26 pilots came out of the Mississippi Air National
Guard, for example.

>
> - I gather that means time "on loan" to the Agency counted - towards
> promotions, retirement, etc.?

Yes. They maintain a shadow file-- sort of a parallel DD 201 jacket,
and they keep track of your upward movement even though you're technically
not in the service anymore.

> IMHO, certainly in the end result - yes.
> But, pretty sure it was not done concurrently (at timings with 'peers')
> and quite possible it was not done immeadiately at 'reentry' - might
> have been in stages.

Sort of. Your record stayed on file and was reviewed and updated
periodically. Same deal for Air Force guys who went to work on Air
America's
black operations in Laos.



--
"Implications leading to ramifications leading to shenanigans"-- Admiral
Elmo Zumwalt, USN.

[Jack Linthicum]

On Jun 28, 11:52 am, "a425couple" > wrote:
> "Michael Shirley" > wrote
>
> > Matt Wiser > wrote:
> >> --documentary on the History Channel about the U-2 and
> >> they had several of the pilots recruited by the CIA from
> >> the USAF to fly the missions. Once the AF asserted
> >> control of the U-2s from the CIA, were the Agency pilots
> >> allowed to rejoin the USAF, a la
> >> some of the guys who flew for Air America (or similar outfits)?
>
> I could be wrong, probably should keep quiet,
> but maybe can add my understanding & a thought process.
> I've added two relevant newsgroups.
>
> > Those that wanted to, yes.
>
> I'd certainly agree with that.
>
> > They were sheep dipped,
> > (which means that they were wearing CIA colors of convenience).
>
> First line has interesting term, second is mostly fine.
>
> > They weren't really out of the Air Force anyway.
>
> Ahhh? Correctness of above depends on reader's
> interpretation, (and kinda on how things turn out).
>
> While I was in the USMC, I got to know well enough
> a salty, quite competent SNCO. He once related to me
> a story of a kinda similar type thing.
> His story as best I can recall with current wording:
> "So as the 1960's started I was happy I'd found a
> good life in the Corps. Far better than life in my
> neighborhood (he was Hispanic). I enjoyed life as a corporal (?)
> and the Corps felt I was a good leader and a good trainer.
> Then an officer I trusted pulled me aside and took
> me to hear a person trying to recruit me for something
> else. It sounded interesting, but risky to me to get out of
> the Corps. I asked questions, but all the officer would say
> is, "You know the Marines will alway take care of their own."
> I took that as good enough guarantee --!?--
> and went for it. I was discharged and my file was closed.
> So then I was at this camp trying to do my best to train this
> rather strange group.
>
> "The mission/invasion real quickly became a total clusterf-k!
> We were so pinned down, couldn't dig foxholes, I just
> kept my head down and wiggled my way lower and lower
> in the sand. Gradually it became clear that we were not
> going to get support, and this was not likely to get better.
> Seemed like a horrible fate, get killed or captured, and
> the record was clear - I'd left the Marines, forgotten loyalty
> to USA, and gone and joined a crazy whacko group
> as a mercinary.
>
> "As the day wore on there was a bit of a lull, I told
> my people what I was going to try - and they could stay
> where they were in 'hull defilade' in the sand or try it
> with me. I crawled back down to the water, then kept
> going.
>
> "I switched to a back float and just kept slowly kicking.
> I felt surprised and very happy as I got out 100-200-300
> yards. I was mostly out of range and I had not been hit.
> Then realized, I had no realistic goal! But it was
> good to be just alive and swimming, so just kept going
> for hours. Comtemplated life and choices.
> Really surprised me when much later I bumped into
> a ship's small boat. They had spotted me and decided
> to check me out. Good guys and I was saved.
> I'd made it in good shape out of Cuba's Bay of Pigs.
>
> "I enlisted back into the Corps. Got fast tracked back
> to and above my prior rank. I ain't gonna leave it again!"
>
> Heck, I'll admit I'm not 100% positive about the exact truth
> positive in many things. I believed this story then, and now.
> But, I'll accept, there is always the possibility this SNCO
> was just telling me a 'sea story'. Except he did not start
> it with the obligatory "Now this is no ****!"
> Comments or other opinions on this are welcomed.
>
> - I gather that means time "on loan" to the Agency counted
> - towards promotions, retirement, etc.?
>
> IMHO, certainly in the end result - yes.
> But, pretty sure it was not done concurrently
> (at timings with 'peers') and quite possible it was not done
> immeadiately at 'reentry' - might have been in stages.

Not everybody in the Agency came from the Ivy League

http://dogskinreport.com/sheep-dipped.htm
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1004145-3,00.html
http://ciabook.com/category/glossary/

[a425couple]

"Michael Shirley" > wrote
> a425couple > wrote:
>>> Those that wanted to, yes.
>> I'd certainly agree with that.
>>> They were sheep dipped, (which means that they were wearing CIA colors
>>> of convenience).
>> First line has interesting term, second is mostly fine.
> Yup. I'd give a lot to know who came up with it. Where I come from,
> sheep dipped means that you've walked up a ramp, fell over the edge into a
> tank that's over your head so that the solution kills ticks and things.
> And
> it usually only happens to sheep, so I'm kinda curious myself.

Meaning seems to fit fine IMHO with the term,
'fell over the edge - solution removes bad things' - like
official record of allegiances and chain of command
& responsibilities.

>>> They weren't really out of the Air Force anyway.
>> Ahhh? Correctness of above depends on reader's interpretation, (and
>> kinda on how things turn out).
> Yup. If you got sheep dipped, you technically resigned from the
> service, but you were still there. It's one of those things that came
> under the heading of "plausable denial". The idea was that if you were
> technically a civilian, the people you were out to screw with, couldn't
> come back and claim an act of war. John Foster Dulles, Eisenhower's
> Secretary of State came up with it, and his spooky brother, Allen Dulles,
> applied it at the CIA.

I totally agree with the "Plausable denial"
that's why - split hairs later.

>> While I was in the USMC, I got to know well enough a salty, quite
>> competent SNCO. He once related to me a story of a kinda similar type
>> thing.
>> His story as best I can recall with current wording:
>> "So as the 1960's started I was happy I'd found a good life in the
>> Corps. Far better than life in my neighborhood (he was Hispanic). I
>> enjoyed life as a corporal (?) and the Corps felt I was a good leader
>> and a good trainer. Then an officer I trusted pulled me aside and took
>> me to hear a person trying to recruit me for something else. It sounded
>> interesting, but risky to me to get out of the Corps. I asked
>> questions, but all the officer would say is, "You know the Marines will
>> alway take care of their own." I took that as good enough
>> uarantee --!?--
>> and went for it. I was discharged and my file was closed.
>> So then I was at this camp trying to do my best to train this rather
>> strange group.
>> "The mission/invasion real quickly became a total clusterf-k!
>> We were so pinned down, couldn't dig foxholes, I just kept my head down
>> and wiggled my way lower and lower in the sand. Gradually it became
>> clear that we were not going to get support, and this was not likely to
>> get better. Seemed like a horrible fate, get killed or captured, and
>> the record was clear - I'd left the Marines, forgotten loyalty to USA,
>> and gone and joined a crazy whacko group as a mercinary.
> Sounds like Brigade 2506-- the guys who did the Bay Of Pigs
> Invasion.
>> "As the day wore on there was a bit of a lull, I told my people what I
>> was going to try - and they could stay where they were in 'hull
>> defilade' in the sand or try it with me. I crawled back down to the
>> water, then kept going. "I switched to a back float and just kept
>> slowly kicking. I felt surprised and very happy as I got out
>> 100-200-300 yards. I was mostly out of range and I had not been hit.
>> Then realized, I had no realistic goal! But it was good to be just
>> alive and swimming, so just kept going for hours. Comtemplated life
>> and choices.
>> Really surprised me when much later I bumped into a ship's small boat.
>> They had spotted me and decided to check me out. Good guys and I was
>> saved. I'd made it in good shape out of Cuba's Bay of Pigs.
> Yup. They didn't stop there. There was a sort of half assed maritime
> war between some odd boats that the CIA bought for the Alpha 66 and
> Omega-7 guys, to include the ex-Navy minesweeper, Rex, which had already
> seen service
> with the CIA during the action in the Dominican Republic. She had
> machineguns and 75mm recoiless rifles as armament. Part of the deal over
> the Cuban missile crisis was that the naval
> actions stopped and that included the covert operation surrounding the Rex
> and a half dozen other boats.

Interesting additional info.
Those RRs certainly seem like kinda ideal
weapon for a smaller craft. Light enough weight,
low recoil, heavy hitting power.

>> "I enlisted back into the Corps. Got fast tracked back to and above my
>> prior rank. I ain't gonna leave it again!"
>> Heck, I'll admit I'm not 100% positive about the exact truth positive in
>> many things. I believed this story then, and now.
>> But, I'll accept, there is always the possibility this SNCO was just
>> telling me a 'sea story'. Except he did not start it with the
>> obligatory "Now this is no ****!"
>> Comments or other opinions on this are welcomed.
> Sounds about right. They sheep dipped a lot of guys for that
> operation. The B-26 pilots came out of the Mississippi Air National
> Guard, for example.

>> - I gather that means time "on loan" to the Agency counted - towards
>> promotions, retirement, etc.?
> Yes. They maintain a shadow file-- sort of a parallel DD 201 jacket,
> and they keep track of your upward movement even though you're not in the
> service anymore.
>> IMHO, certainly in the end result - yes.
>> But, pretty sure it was not done concurrently (at timings with 'peers')
>> and quite possible it was not done immeadiately at 'reentry' - might
>> have been in stages.
> Sort of. Your record stayed on file and was reviewed and updated
> periodically. Same deal for Air Force guys who went to work on Air
> America's black operations in Laos.

I try not to split hairs, but think the part about
promotions with peers could use some claification.
I think it not done 'with peers' - but caught up/ made 'right'
later.

Consider a promotional board. They are conviened once
or twice a year to select say 1000 of the people in the
zone in that occupational speciality for future promotion.
They make thier decision, goes probably to congress for
approval, then the "promotional list" gets published in
many unclassified ways.
Now consider senario, barely changed from our real world.
A pilot we will call Garyfrancis Unlucky Underpowered,
quits the AF as a Capt. in 1956, and starts working for
a ngo flying high altitude research planes.
Then one unlucky day in 1960 one of these planes
gets wounded by one SAM high over Russia, then
plane and pilot get totally destroyed by another SAM.
Russia complains.
But the cover story can basicly hold, it was a ngo
research plane flown by civilian pilot (sure ex-military,
but plenty of them quit and go fly airlines also) and
some really regretful navigation error occured.
Sorry about that, but it not our military!

The "cover story" however, would totally fold, if the USSR
showed that couple months earlier this Garyfrancis
Underpowered had been promoted to Major USAF!

Thus, I think when/if they want to return to regular
military duty, they brought back,
then are 'fast tracked' through promotions as normal
sequencing allows.

I recall a Staff Sgt (E6), got out for temp. good reasons.
Problem solved/ended/over. Too much time had passed
for him to come back as an E6. Enlisted as E1 (or E2?).
If I recall correctly he spent 6 months as E4, and also
6 months as E5. He was almost right in line with his
former 'peers' when the E7 board met.

[Jack Linthicum]

On Jun 29, 2:30 pm, "a425couple" > wrote:
> "Michael Shirley" > wrote
>
> > a425couple > wrote:
> >>> Those that wanted to, yes.
> >> I'd certainly agree with that.
> >>> They were sheep dipped, (which means that they were wearing CIA colors
> >>> of convenience).
> >> First line has interesting term, second is mostly fine.
> > Yup. I'd give a lot to know who came up with it. Where I come from,
> > sheep dipped means that you've walked up a ramp, fell over the edge into a
> > tank that's over your head so that the solution kills ticks and things.
> > And
> > it usually only happens to sheep, so I'm kinda curious myself.
>
> Meaning seems to fit fine IMHO with the term,
> 'fell over the edge - solution removes bad things' - like
> official record of allegiances and chain of command
> & responsibilities.
>
> >>> They weren't really out of the Air Force anyway.
> >> Ahhh? Correctness of above depends on reader's interpretation, (and
> >> kinda on how things turn out).
> > Yup. If you got sheep dipped, you technically resigned from the
> > service, but you were still there. It's one of those things that came
> > under the heading of "plausable denial". The idea was that if you were
> > technically a civilian, the people you were out to screw with, couldn't
> > come back and claim an act of war. John Foster Dulles, Eisenhower's
> > Secretary of State came up with it, and his spooky brother, Allen Dulles,
> > applied it at the CIA.
>
> I totally agree with the "Plausable denial"
> that's why - split hairs later.
>
>
>
> >> While I was in the USMC, I got to know well enough a salty, quite
> >> competent SNCO. He once related to me a story of a kinda similar type
> >> thing.
> >> His story as best I can recall with current wording:
> >> "So as the 1960's started I was happy I'd found a good life in the
> >> Corps. Far better than life in my neighborhood (he was Hispanic). I
> >> enjoyed life as a corporal (?) and the Corps felt I was a good leader
> >> and a good trainer. Then an officer I trusted pulled me aside and took
> >> me to hear a person trying to recruit me for something else. It sounded
> >> interesting, but risky to me to get out of the Corps. I asked
> >> questions, but all the officer would say is, "You know the Marines will
> >> alway take care of their own." I took that as good enough
> >> uarantee --!?--
> >> and went for it. I was discharged and my file was closed.
> >> So then I was at this camp trying to do my best to train this rather
> >> strange group.
> >> "The mission/invasion real quickly became a total clusterf-k!
> >> We were so pinned down, couldn't dig foxholes, I just kept my head down
> >> and wiggled my way lower and lower in the sand. Gradually it became
> >> clear that we were not going to get support, and this was not likely to
> >> get better. Seemed like a horrible fate, get killed or captured, and
> >> the record was clear - I'd left the Marines, forgotten loyalty to USA,
> >> and gone and joined a crazy whacko group as a mercinary.
> > Sounds like Brigade 2506-- the guys who did the Bay Of Pigs
> > Invasion.
> >> "As the day wore on there was a bit of a lull, I told my people what I
> >> was going to try - and they could stay where they were in 'hull
> >> defilade' in the sand or try it with me. I crawled back down to the
> >> water, then kept going. "I switched to a back float and just kept
> >> slowly kicking. I felt surprised and very happy as I got out
> >> 100-200-300 yards. I was mostly out of range and I had not been hit.
> >> Then realized, I had no realistic goal! But it was good to be just
> >> alive and swimming, so just kept going for hours. Comtemplated life
> >> and choices.
> >> Really surprised me when much later I bumped into a ship's small boat.
> >> They had spotted me and decided to check me out. Good guys and I was
> >> saved. I'd made it in good shape out of Cuba's Bay of Pigs.
> > Yup. They didn't stop there. There was a sort of half assed maritime
> > war between some odd boats that the CIA bought for the Alpha 66 and
> > Omega-7 guys, to include the ex-Navy minesweeper, Rex, which had already
> > seen service
> > with the CIA during the action in the Dominican Republic. She had
> > machineguns and 75mm recoiless rifles as armament. Part of the deal over
> > the Cuban missile crisis was that the naval
> > actions stopped and that included the covert operation surrounding the Rex
> > and a half dozen other boats.
>
> Interesting additional info.
> Those RRs certainly seem like kinda ideal
> weapon for a smaller craft. Light enough weight,
> low recoil, heavy hitting power.
>
>
>
> >> "I enlisted back into the Corps. Got fast tracked back to and above my
> >> prior rank. I ain't gonna leave it again!"
> >> Heck, I'll admit I'm not 100% positive about the exact truth positive in
> >> many things. I believed this story then, and now.
> >> But, I'll accept, there is always the possibility this SNCO was just
> >> telling me a 'sea story'. Except he did not start it with the
> >> obligatory "Now this is no ****!"
> >> Comments or other opinions on this are welcomed.
> > Sounds about right. They sheep dipped a lot of guys for that
> > operation. The B-26 pilots came out of the Mississippi Air National
> > Guard, for example.
> >> - I gather that means time "on loan" to the Agency counted - towards
> >> promotions, retirement, etc.?
> > Yes. They maintain a shadow file-- sort of a parallel DD 201 jacket,
> > and they keep track of your upward movement even though you're not in the
> > service anymore.
> >> IMHO, certainly in the end result - yes.
> >> But, pretty sure it was not done concurrently (at timings with 'peers')
> >> and quite possible it was not done immeadiately at 'reentry' - might
> >> have been in stages.
> > Sort of. Your record stayed on file and was reviewed and updated
> > periodically. Same deal for Air Force guys who went to work on Air
> > America's black operations in Laos.
>
> I try not to split hairs, but think the part about
> promotions with peers could use some claification.
> I think it not done 'with peers' - but caught up/ made 'right'
> later.
>
> Consider a promotional board. They are conviened once
> or twice a year to select say 1000 of the people in the
> zone in that occupational speciality for future promotion.
> They make thier decision, goes probably to congress for
> approval, then the "promotional list" gets published in
> many unclassified ways.
> Now consider senario, barely changed from our real world.
> A pilot we will call Garyfrancis Unlucky Underpowered,
> quits the AF as a Capt. in 1956, and starts working for
> a ngo flying high altitude research planes.
> Then one unlucky day in 1960 one of these planes
> gets wounded by one SAM high over Russia, then
> plane and pilot get totally destroyed by another SAM.
> Russia complains.
> But the cover story can basicly hold, it was a ngo
> research plane flown by civilian pilot (sure ex-military,
> but plenty of them quit and go fly airlines also) and
> some really regretful navigation error occured.
> Sorry about that, but it not our military!
>
> The "cover story" however, would totally fold, if the USSR
> showed that couple months earlier this Garyfrancis
> Underpowered had been promoted to Major USAF!
>
> Thus, I think when/if they want to return to regular
> military duty, they brought back,
> then are 'fast tracked' through promotions as normal
> sequencing allows.
>
> I recall a Staff Sgt (E6), got out for temp. good reasons.
> Problem solved/ended/over. Too much time had passed
> for him to come back as an E6. Enlisted as E1 (or E2?).
> If I recall correctly he spent 6 months as E4, and also
> 6 months as E5. He was almost right in line with his
> former 'peers' when the E7 board met.

I had a long discussion on this newsgroup with some Vietnam lifer who
claimed the recoiless rifles were not really weapons. A lot of
"unarmed" ships carried them as ballast in case someone tried to do
what eventually happened to the Cole.

[a425couple]

"Jack Linthicum" > wrote ...
> "a425couple" > wrote:
>> "Michael Shirley" > wrote
>> > Matt Wiser > wrote:
>> >> --documentary on the History Channel about the U-2 and
>> >> they had several of the pilots recruited by the CIA from
>> >> the USAF to fly the missions. ----
>> I'd made it in good shape out of Cuba's Bay of Pigs.---
>> Heck, I'll admit I'm not 100% positive about the exact truth
>> positive in many things. I believed this story then, and now.
>> But, I'll accept, there is always the possibility this SNCO
>> was just telling me a 'sea story'. Except he did not start
>> it with the obligatory "Now this is no ****!"
>> Comments or other opinions on this are welcomed.
>
> Not everybody in the Agency came from the Ivy League
> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1004145-3,00.html

Interesting & Thank you. :
"Once deployed, CIA operatives have fewer regulations to hamstring
them than their military counterparts do. -- Says Kent Harrington, a former
CIA station chief in Asia: "If a military special-operations soldier
parachuted
in with $3 million to buy armies, he'd have to have a C-5 cargo plane flying
behind him with all the paperwork he'd need to dispense the money." "

Yep, the old problem, want it done quickly, or want it
done with proper documentation?

I got a question for Jack, re:
"Paramilitary officers account for almost half the 79 stars chiseled
into the wall in the main foyer of the agency's Langley, Va.,"
A few of these 'recent ones' have been revealed.
Is there any info out there about the real early ones,
like 40's, 50's & 60's?
Various readings I've done just indicate --
lost, forever unrevealed and unknown to public
and relatives.

[Jack Linthicum]

On Jun 29, 3:08 pm, "a425couple" > wrote:
> "Jack Linthicum" > wrote ...
>
>
>
> > "a425couple" > wrote:
> >> "Michael Shirley" > wrote
> >> > Matt Wiser > wrote:
> >> >> --documentary on the History Channel about the U-2 and
> >> >> they had several of the pilots recruited by the CIA from
> >> >> the USAF to fly the missions. ----
> >> I'd made it in good shape out of Cuba's Bay of Pigs.---
> >> Heck, I'll admit I'm not 100% positive about the exact truth
> >> positive in many things. I believed this story then, and now.
> >> But, I'll accept, there is always the possibility this SNCO
> >> was just telling me a 'sea story'. Except he did not start
> >> it with the obligatory "Now this is no ****!"
> >> Comments or other opinions on this are welcomed.
>
> > Not everybody in the Agency came from the Ivy League
> >http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1004145-3,00.html
>
> Interesting & Thank you. :
> "Once deployed, CIA operatives have fewer regulations to hamstring
> them than their military counterparts do. -- Says Kent Harrington, a former
> CIA station chief in Asia: "If a military special-operations soldier
> parachuted
> in with $3 million to buy armies, he'd have to have a C-5 cargo plane flying
> behind him with all the paperwork he'd need to dispense the money." "
>
> Yep, the old problem, want it done quickly, or want it
> done with proper documentation?
>
> I got a question for Jack, re:
> "Paramilitary officers account for almost half the 79 stars chiseled
> into the wall in the main foyer of the agency's Langley, Va.,"
> A few of these 'recent ones' have been revealed.
> Is there any info out there about the real early ones,
> like 40's, 50's & 60's?
> Various readings I've done just indicate --
> lost, forever unrevealed and unknown to public
> and relatives.

A lot of the early ones may have been in cover that would make the CIA
look bad, ie a missionary perhaps.. I vaguely knew some of the Vietnam
bomb victims. One of your Bay of Pigs guys is in this article. You
might want to look further with early stars cia wall of honor.

http://www.christusrex.org/www2/fcf/ray.washingtonpost.cia91897.html

The "Plame" star
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/25/191633/61

a CIA release

https://www.cia.gov/news-information/press-releases-statements/press-release-archive-2007/cia-adds-four-stars-to-memorial-wall.html

[Michael Shirley]

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 11:30:52 -0700, a425couple >
wrote:


>> Yup. I'd give a lot to know who came up with it. Where I come from,
>> sheep dipped means that you've walked up a ramp, fell over the edge
>> into a
>> tank that's over your head so that the solution kills ticks and things.
>> And
>> it usually only happens to sheep, so I'm kinda curious myself.
>
> Meaning seems to fit fine IMHO with the term,
> 'fell over the edge - solution removes bad things' - like
> official record of allegiances and chain of command
> & responsibilities.

You may have a point there.

>
>>>> They weren't really out of the Air Force anyway.
>>> Ahhh? Correctness of above depends on reader's interpretation, (and
>>> kinda on how things turn out).

>> Yup. If you got sheep dipped, you technically resigned from the
>> service, but you were still there. It's one of those things that came
>> under the heading of "plausable denial". The idea was that if you were
>> technically a civilian, the people you were out to screw with, couldn't
>> come back and claim an act of war. John Foster Dulles, Eisenhower's
>> Secretary of State came up with it, and his spooky brother, Allen
>> Dulles,
>> applied it at the CIA.
>
> I totally agree with the "Plausable denial"
> that's why - split hairs later.

Yup.
>
>> Yup. They didn't stop there. There was a sort of half assed maritime
>> war between some odd boats that the CIA bought for the Alpha 66 and
>> Omega-7 guys, to include the ex-Navy minesweeper, Rex, which had
>> already seen service
>> with the CIA during the action in the Dominican Republic. She had
>> machineguns and 75mm recoiless rifles as armament. Part of the deal
>> over the Cuban missile crisis was that the naval
>> actions stopped and that included the covert operation surrounding the
>> Rex and a half dozen other boats.
>
> Interesting additional info.
> Those RRs certainly seem like kinda ideal
> weapon for a smaller craft. Light enough weight,
> low recoil, heavy hitting power.

True, but heaven forefend you get on the wrong end of one. The backblast
is nasty and it can and will hurt you.

>
>
> I try not to split hairs, but think the part about
> promotions with peers could use some claification.
> I think it not done 'with peers' - but caught up/ made 'right'
> later.

You may be right there, never having been through the
process myself.

>
> Consider a promotional board. They are conviened once
> or twice a year to select say 1000 of the people in the
> zone in that occupational speciality for future promotion.
> They make thier decision, goes probably to congress for
> approval, then the "promotional list" gets published in
> many unclassified ways.

Army Times does it.

> Now consider senario, barely changed from our real world.
> A pilot we will call Garyfrancis Unlucky Underpowered,
> quits the AF as a Capt. in 1956, and starts working for
> a ngo flying high altitude research planes.
> Then one unlucky day in 1960 one of these planes
> gets wounded by one SAM high over Russia, then
> plane and pilot get totally destroyed by another SAM.
> Russia complains.

Can't complain-- it's expensive and annoying.
<EVIL GRIN>

> But the cover story can basicly hold, it was a ngo
> research plane flown by civilian pilot (sure ex-military,
> but plenty of them quit and go fly airlines also) and
> some really regretful navigation error occured.
> Sorry about that, but it not our military!

Until they found that sterile High Standard HD
and the silver dollar that unscrewed to show a curare
needle. <Chuckle> I'm sure that got somebody's attention.
Most civilian pilots don't carry a silenced pistol and a
suicide kit.

>
> The "cover story" however, would totally fold, if the USSR
> showed that couple months earlier this Garyfrancis
> Underpowered had been promoted to Major USAF!

I think you're right there.
>
> Thus, I think when/if they want to return to regular
> military duty, they brought back,
> then are 'fast tracked' through promotions as normal
> sequencing allows.

Makes sense.
>
> I recall a Staff Sgt (E6), got out for temp. good reasons.
> Problem solved/ended/over. Too much time had passed
> for him to come back as an E6. Enlisted as E1 (or E2?).
> If I recall correctly he spent 6 months as E4, and also
> 6 months as E5. He was almost right in line with his
> former 'peers' when the E7 board met.

That does sound intriguing.



--
"Implications leading to ramifications leading to shenanigans"-- Admiral
Elmo Zumwalt, USN.

[Michael Shirley]

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 11:50:16 -0700, Jack Linthicum
> wrote:

> On Jun 29, 2:30 pm, "a425couple" > wrote:
>>
> I had a long discussion on this newsgroup with some Vietnam lifer who
> claimed the recoiless rifles were not really weapons. A lot of
> "unarmed" ships carried them as ballast in case someone tried to do
> what eventually happened to the Cole.

Makes sense, although I'd rather have something like a couple of M2HBs or
flexible A/N M-3s on the bridge wings.

It's funny that you mention guns as ballast though. Back before WW-I and
WW-II, there were German operated ships controlled by the Etappe, (part of
the Abwehr) that was concerned with resupply and support for commerce
raiders. Those guns were intended for transfer to those ships as armament.

I wonder if anybody does anything like that now?



--
"Implications leading to ramifications leading to shenanigans"-- Admiral
Elmo Zumwalt, USN.

[Jack Linthicum]

On Jun 30, 11:33 am, "Michael Shirley" > wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 11:50:16 -0700, Jack Linthicum
>
> > wrote:
> > On Jun 29, 2:30 pm, "a425couple" > wrote:
>
> > I had a long discussion on this newsgroup with some Vietnam lifer who
> > claimed the recoiless rifles were not really weapons. A lot of
> > "unarmed" ships carried them as ballast in case someone tried to do
> > what eventually happened to the Cole.
>
> Makes sense, although I'd rather have something like a couple of M2HBs or
> flexible A/N M-3s on the bridge wings.
>
> It's funny that you mention guns as ballast though. Back before WW-I and
> WW-II, there were German operated ships controlled by the Etappe, (part of
> the Abwehr) that was concerned with resupply and support for commerce
> raiders. Those guns were intended for transfer to those ships as armament.
>
> I wonder if anybody does anything like that now?
>
> --
> "Implications leading to ramifications leading to shenanigans"-- Admiral
> Elmo Zumwalt, USN.

Too much visibility. That was one of the problems with the Pueblo her
MGs were so wrapped up in canvas and frozen from the sea spray that it
took too long to free them for action. With the RR you just pull it
out of the locker and burn some paint.

[Jack Linthicum]

On Jun 30, 11:29 am, "Michael Shirley" > wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 11:30:52 -0700, a425couple >
> wrote:
>
> >> Yup. I'd give a lot to know who came up with it. Where I come from,
> >> sheep dipped means that you've walked up a ramp, fell over the edge
> >> into a
> >> tank that's over your head so that the solution kills ticks and things.
> >> And
> >> it usually only happens to sheep, so I'm kinda curious myself.
>
> > Meaning seems to fit fine IMHO with the term,
> > 'fell over the edge - solution removes bad things' - like
> > official record of allegiances and chain of command
> > & responsibilities.
>
> You may have a point there.
>
>
>
> >>>> They weren't really out of the Air Force anyway.
> >>> Ahhh? Correctness of above depends on reader's interpretation, (and
> >>> kinda on how things turn out).
> >> Yup. If you got sheep dipped, you technically resigned from the
> >> service, but you were still there. It's one of those things that came
> >> under the heading of "plausable denial". The idea was that if you were
> >> technically a civilian, the people you were out to screw with, couldn't
> >> come back and claim an act of war. John Foster Dulles, Eisenhower's
> >> Secretary of State came up with it, and his spooky brother, Allen
> >> Dulles,
> >> applied it at the CIA.
>
> > I totally agree with the "Plausable denial"
> > that's why - split hairs later.
>
> Yup.
>
>
>
> >> Yup. They didn't stop there. There was a sort of half assed maritime
> >> war between some odd boats that the CIA bought for the Alpha 66 and
> >> Omega-7 guys, to include the ex-Navy minesweeper, Rex, which had
> >> already seen service
> >> with the CIA during the action in the Dominican Republic. She had
> >> machineguns and 75mm recoiless rifles as armament. Part of the deal
> >> over the Cuban missile crisis was that the naval
> >> actions stopped and that included the covert operation surrounding the
> >> Rex and a half dozen other boats.
>
> > Interesting additional info.
> > Those RRs certainly seem like kinda ideal
> > weapon for a smaller craft. Light enough weight,
> > low recoil, heavy hitting power.
>
> True, but heaven forefend you get on the wrong end of one. The backblast
> is nasty and it can and will hurt you.
>
>
>
> > I try not to split hairs, but think the part about
> > promotions with peers could use some claification.
> > I think it not done 'with peers' - but caught up/ made 'right'
> > later.
>
> You may be right there, never having been through the
> process myself.
>
>
>
> > Consider a promotional board. They are conviened once
> > or twice a year to select say 1000 of the people in the
> > zone in that occupational speciality for future promotion.
> > They make thier decision, goes probably to congress for
> > approval, then the "promotional list" gets published in
> > many unclassified ways.
>
> Army Times does it.
>
> > Now consider senario, barely changed from our real world.
> > A pilot we will call Garyfrancis Unlucky Underpowered,
> > quits the AF as a Capt. in 1956, and starts working for
> > a ngo flying high altitude research planes.
> > Then one unlucky day in 1960 one of these planes
> > gets wounded by one SAM high over Russia, then
> > plane and pilot get totally destroyed by another SAM.
> > Russia complains.
>
> Can't complain-- it's expensive and annoying.
> <EVIL GRIN>
>
> > But the cover story can basicly hold, it was a ngo
> > research plane flown by civilian pilot (sure ex-military,
> > but plenty of them quit and go fly airlines also) and
> > some really regretful navigation error occured.
> > Sorry about that, but it not our military!
>
> Until they found that sterile High Standard HD
> and the silver dollar that unscrewed to show a curare
> needle. <Chuckle> I'm sure that got somebody's attention.
> Most civilian pilots don't carry a silenced pistol and a
> suicide kit.
>
>
>
> > The "cover story" however, would totally fold, if the USSR
> > showed that couple months earlier this Garyfrancis
> > Underpowered had been promoted to Major USAF!
>
> I think you're right there.
>
>
>
> > Thus, I think when/if they want to return to regular
> > military duty, they brought back,
> > then are 'fast tracked' through promotions as normal
> > sequencing allows.
>
> Makes sense.
>
>
>
> > I recall a Staff Sgt (E6), got out for temp. good reasons.
> > Problem solved/ended/over. Too much time had passed
> > for him to come back as an E6. Enlisted as E1 (or E2?).
> > If I recall correctly he spent 6 months as E4, and also
> > 6 months as E5. He was almost right in line with his
> > former 'peers' when the E7 board met.
>
> That does sound intriguing.
>
> --
> "Implications leading to ramifications leading to shenanigans"-- Admiral
> Elmo Zumwalt, USN.

Powers end up as a news helicopter pilot and crashed when it ran out
of fuel. Did a test pilot routine before that for Lockheed. Buried in
Arlington.

[a425couple]

"Jack Linthicum" > wrote ...
> "a425couple" > wrote:
>> >> "Michael Shirley" > wrote
>> >> > Matt Wiser > wrote:
>> >> >> --documentary on the History Channel about the U-2
>> Is there any info out there about the real early ones,
>> like 40's, 50's & 60's?
>> Various readings I've done just indicate --
>> lost, forever unrevealed and unknown to public
>> and relatives.
>
> A lot of the early ones may have been in cover that would make the CIA
> look bad, ie a missionary perhaps.. I vaguely knew some of the Vietnam
> bomb victims. One of your Bay of Pigs guys is in this article. You
> might want to look further with early stars cia wall of honor.
> http://www.christusrex.org/www2/fcf/ray.washingtonpost.cia91897.html
> https://www.cia.gov/news-information/press-releases-statements/press-release-archive-2007/cia-adds-four-stars-to-memorial-wall.html

Thank you. I found them interesting reading.