Landings Carthage, Jackson and Madison MS - Video

[[email protected]]

Did some short field work over at Carthage (50 foot wide runway by
3000), made a full stop at KJAN and had to taxi to the parallel runway
and of course had to return home.

At Carthage, thermals from the runway made me float more down the
runway then I cared to and it reflected on my landings. Plane just
didn't want to sink despite me coming down final as slow as possible.

Not sure about others, but I do get a tickle out of me getting "more
then one turn" taxi instructions when I land at KJAN. Keep in mind
most of my work is at an uncontrolled airport or airports with a
taxiway that runs parallel with the runway.

Never can understandy why they make the centerline reflectors the size
of mount Everest relative to my tiny nosewheel.

Anyhooo, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCSCGKb2ZFw and 8 minutes of
your time will have you endure 4 landings at the above mention
airports.

Allen

[BT]

You are getting a lot of flying in... good for you.. but I tend to chuckle
when you call 3000x50 a short field runway.. or were you just practicing the
technique there.

Just for fun.. look up 0B8, 1935x40, or 7B3, 2100x170. Even the cross wind
runway in AUG is 2700, with cliffs to each end. The airport sits on top of a
hill.
BT


> wrote in message
...
> Did some short field work over at Carthage (50 foot wide runway by
> 3000), made a full stop at KJAN and had to taxi to the parallel runway
> and of course had to return home.
>
> At Carthage, thermals from the runway made me float more down the
> runway then I cared to and it reflected on my landings. Plane just
> didn't want to sink despite me coming down final as slow as possible.
>
> Not sure about others, but I do get a tickle out of me getting "more
> then one turn" taxi instructions when I land at KJAN. Keep in mind
> most of my work is at an uncontrolled airport or airports with a
> taxiway that runs parallel with the runway.
>
> Never can understandy why they make the centerline reflectors the size
> of mount Everest relative to my tiny nosewheel.
>
> Anyhooo, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCSCGKb2ZFw and 8 minutes of
> your time will have you endure 4 landings at the above mention
> airports.
>
> Allen

[[email protected]]

On Jul 5, 12:18*pm, "BT" > wrote:
> You are getting a lot of flying in... good for you.. but I tend to chuckle
> when you call 3000x50 a short field runway.. or were you just practicing the
> technique there.
>
> Just for fun.. look up 0B8, 1935x40, or 7B3, 2100x170. Even the cross wind
> runway in AUG is 2700, with cliffs to each end. The airport sits on top of a
> hill.
> BT

Yeah, I figured that somebody would get a chuckle. Short is
"relative" especially to the bird one flies.

Shortest I have done is 2900 however as you can see in the video,
really, distance wasn't that much a factor as I had the plane stopped
well before the halfway point. Temp was nearing 90 and density
altitude was just over 2100 feet which is unusually high down this way
since the field elevation isn't that high. Durn thermals over the
runway kept the plane from landing, just didn't want to stop flying
even with my airspeed at 55 knots over the numbers.

For me, it was more of a practice on the narrow part of the runway as
that was the narrowest runway I have landed on and that seem to be a
little disconcerting on the peripheral vision aspect of landing.

I'd suspect no option of coming up short without getting wet at
0B8 :-))

[john smith]

In article
>,
" > wrote:

Durn thermals over the
> runway kept the plane from landing, just didn't want to stop flying
> even with my airspeed at 55 knots over the numbers.

If the airplane is empty, with one on board, re-calculate your speeds
based on the actual aircraft weight, not on the max gross weight book
values, and fly those speeds.

Another trick is to take out one notch of flaps while simultaneously
raising (electric flap and trim motors run at the same speed) the nose
once you have crossed the threshhold and are in the flair.

[[email protected]]

On Jul 5, 5:14*pm, John Smith > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
> " > wrote:
>
> Durn thermals over the
>
> > runway kept the plane from landing, just didn't want to stop flying
> > even with my airspeed at 55 knots over the numbers.
>
> If the airplane is empty, with one on board, re-calculate your speeds
> based on the actual aircraft weight, not on the max gross weight book
> values, and fly those speeds.
>
> Another trick is to take out one notch of flaps while simultaneously
> raising (electric flap and trim motors run at the same speed) the nose
> once you have crossed the threshhold and are in the flair.

FOR ME, I don't like changing the airplane configuration while on
short final or in the flare. I fly a BE 23 (Sundowner) and and what
you suggest above would require me to reach for the floor for the flap
handle. Flaps are manual.

Over 50 ft. Obstacle: 1,484 ft. is what I had to deal with since there
were power lines on the approach end of the runway.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

wrote:
>
>
> FOR ME, I don't like changing the airplane configuration while on
> short final or in the flare. I fly a BE 23 (Sundowner) and and what
> you suggest above would require me to reach for the floor for the flap
> handle. Flaps are manual.

Since I have the same plane, the thought that crossed my mind involved
accidentally dumping all the flaps. 8^(

When practicing stall recovery, I have accidentally dumped all the flaps
when trying to pull 'em in a notch. It's not something I'd want to do @
50 ft. AGL while doing everything else that goes with that point in the
landing.

[john smith]

I have time in Beech A23-34, Piper PA-28's and PA-32's, all with manual
flaps. With manual flaps you ease out one notch while simultaneously
easing in back yoke to maintain pitch attitude.

As I said, you are already past the threshhold and in the flair, the
only thing different you are doing from a normal landing is reducing
flaps one notch.

[More_Flaps]

On Jul 6, 4:50*am, " > wrote:
> Did some short field work over at Carthage (50 foot wide runway by
> 3000), made a full stop at KJAN and had to taxi to the parallel runway
> and of course had to return home.
>
> At Carthage, thermals from the runway made me float more down the
> runway then I cared to and it reflected on my landings. * Plane just
> didn't want to sink despite me coming down final as slow as possible.
>
> Not sure about others, but I do get a tickle out of me getting "more
> then one turn" taxi instructions when I land at KJAN. *Keep in mind
> most of my work is at an uncontrolled airport or airports with a
> taxiway that runs parallel with the runway.
>
> Never can understandy why they make the centerline reflectors the size
> of mount Everest relative to my tiny nosewheel.
>
> Anyhooo,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCSCGKb2ZFwand 8 minutes of
> your time will have you endure 4 landings at the above mention
> airports.
>

At least one turn onto final was a bit steep. I was taugh that circuit
turns should be no more than 30 degrees. Your last short field looked
a bit fast -hence the float? I've not flown a sundowder but your nose
never seems to get above the end of the runway -is that because the
trim with flaps down is very level?

Cheers

[[email protected]]

On Jul 5, 6:47*pm, More_Flaps > wrote:

> At least one turn onto final was a bit steep. I was taugh that circuit
> turns should be no more than 30 degrees. *

Assuming the last landing at KMBO you are talking about, yeah, I think
you are right, I kinda overshot final and the turn was a bit over 30
degree bank. In the video, I figure if the horizon hits the upper
corner it would be a 45 degree bank?

>>Your last short field looked
> a bit fast -hence the float? I've not flown a sundowder but your nose
> never seems to get above the end of the runway -is that because the
> trim with flaps down is very level?

Couple of thoughts. First the camera is wedge on the glareshield as
close as to the windscreen I can get it. I have a binder that I put
behind the camera so it doesn't shift. The camera tilts slightly down
due to the slope of the glareshield which makes me think this is the
reason why the nose never gets above the end of the runway. Clearly
in some of the videos, you hear the mains touch and then the nose.

Regarding the speed, two thoughts as I really thought I held final
approach right at 55 knots. One thought is that the narrow runway I
think makes it feel like you are coming in faster. Second, even
though I was doing 55 knots, with the near 90F temps, density altitude
was 2000 which I believe would make my ground speed faster????

The Sundowner, when you deploy flaps, pitches the nose down, so to
conteract that, I trim pretty aggressive so my airspeed doesn't
build. Big ole stabilator on the tail feather does wonder!

[[email protected]]

On Jul 5, 5:39*pm, B A R R Y > wrote:

> Since I have the same plane, the thought that crossed my mind involved
> accidentally dumping all the flaps. *8^(

For the kind of flying I do, I absolutely agree with you. Sundowner
just "ain't a Cub" and I don't have that burning desire to shoe horn a
landing on a short runway.

> When practicing stall recovery, I have accidentally dumped all the flaps
> when trying to pull 'em in a notch. *It's not something I'd want to do @
> 50 ft. AGL while doing everything else that goes with that point in the
> landing.

Same happened to me, and crossing the numbers, my right hand never
leaves the throttle. For me, it's too distracting to reach down, set
flaps and then reach back for the throttle.

Yeah, I know what John sez can be done, and probably done safely, but
I like the KISS method and have a stable approach from final to terra
firma with one setting and one setting only whether it be an ILS with
one notch of flaps or a VFR approach with three. Xwinds, depending on
the winds, if it's gusty or above 10 knots, one notch of flaps.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

John Smith wrote:
> I have time in Beech A23-34, Piper PA-28's and PA-32's, all with manual
> flaps. With manual flaps you ease out one notch while simultaneously
> easing in back yoke to maintain pitch attitude.

I know that. <G> During a stall recovery, the same procedure is
followed as the airspeed rises. If all is going well, the bar drops
only to the next notch.

You've NEVER had the bar slip past the next (or all the way to the
floor) notches? You know, your finger has a touch of pressure on the
button?

I've had it happen on my Sundowner and in several PA-28's.

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-07-06, B A R R Y > wrote:
> You've NEVER had the bar slip past the next (or all the way to the
> floor) notches? You know, your finger has a touch of pressure on the
> button?

This happened to me on my Archer checkout with the club's chief pilot as
CFI. I just pulled the first notch back in while holding pitch attitude, and
wiped away the sudden sweat. Keep flying the airplane, and it'll be fine.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)

[john smith]

> On 2008-07-06, B A R R Y > wrote:
> > You've NEVER had the bar slip past the next (or all the way to the
> > floor) notches? You know, your finger has a touch of pressure on the
> > button?

Why are you keeping the button depressed?
Keeping the button depressed does nothing after releasing the catch
except preventing the catch from re-engaging at a stop.
Press and release.
Move your thumb off the button and place it atop to your index finger.

[[email protected]]

On Jul 6, 10:45*am, John Smith > wrote:

> Why are you keeping the button depressed?
> Keeping the button depressed does nothing after releasing the catch
> except preventing the catch from re-engaging at a stop.
> Press and release.
> Move your thumb off the button and place it atop to your index finger.

Not true for my Sundowner. If I press the button to reduce flaps AND
release it, the bar goes to the floor. I have to put pressure on that
button to feel the catch for the next notch on the way down to the
floor.

Opposite is true for deploying flaps. I don't have to push the button
raising the johnson bar, it clicks to the next stop. Not the same
going down.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Jay Maynard wrote:
> On 2008-07-06, B A R R Y > wrote:
>> You've NEVER had the bar slip past the next (or all the way to the
>> floor) notches? You know, your finger has a touch of pressure on the
>> button?
>
> This happened to me on my Archer checkout with the club's chief pilot as
> CFI. I just pulled the first notch back in while holding pitch attitude, and
> wiped away the sudden sweat. Keep flying the airplane, and it'll be fine.

Were you crossing the threshold @ 40 AGL and seconds from a landing?

I agree it's not such a big deal at altitude. Personally, I want to
avoid leaning over to grab the bar at the moment I mentioned above.

Thursday afternoon, I landed in a varying 45 to 60 degree crosswind 15
gusting to 27. With my luck, that would be the day I drop the bar. 8^(

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

John Smith wrote:
>
> Press and release.
> Move your thumb off the button and place it atop to your index finger.

I agree. It's an accident that has occasionally happened to me in
rougher air.

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-07-06, B A R R Y > wrote:
> Jay Maynard wrote:
>> On 2008-07-06, B A R R Y > wrote:
>>> You've NEVER had the bar slip past the next (or all the way to the
>>> floor) notches? You know, your finger has a touch of pressure on the
>>> button?
>> This happened to me on my Archer checkout with the club's chief pilot as
>> CFI. I just pulled the first notch back in while holding pitch attitude, and
>> wiped away the sudden sweat. Keep flying the airplane, and it'll be fine.
> Were you crossing the threshold @ 40 AGL and seconds from a landing?

No, I'd just started a go-around at not a lot higher, and a bit further down
the runway.

> Thursday afternoon, I landed in a varying 45 to 60 degree crosswind 15
> gusting to 27. With my luck, that would be the day I drop the bar. 8^(

I do have to admit I feel a lot more comfortable with an electric flap
system.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)

[More_Flaps]

On Jul 7, 4:38*am, B A R R Y > wrote:
> Jay Maynard wrote:
> > On 2008-07-06, B A R R Y > wrote:
> >> You've NEVER had the bar slip past the next (or all the way to the
> >> floor) notches? *You know, your finger has a touch of pressure on the
> >> button?
>
> > This happened to me on my Archer checkout with the club's chief pilot as
> > CFI. I just pulled the first notch back in while holding pitch attitude, and
> > wiped away the sudden sweat. Keep flying the airplane, and it'll be fine.
>
> Were you crossing the threshold @ 40 AGL and seconds from a landing?
>
> I agree it's not such a big deal at altitude. *Personally, I want to
> avoid leaning over to grab the bar at the moment I mentioned above.
>
> Thursday afternoon, I landed in a varying 45 to 60 degree crosswind 15
> gusting to 27. *With my luck, that would be the day I drop the bar. 8^(

Try doing a flapless for more control in a strong xwind?

Cheers

[More_Flaps]

On Jul 7, 8:22*am, Clark > wrote:
> More_Flaps > wrote in news:1d23a864-9d7f-4d01-ac12-
> :
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 7, 4:38*am, B A R R Y > wrote:
> >> Jay Maynard wrote:
> >> > On 2008-07-06, B A R R Y > wrote:
> >> >> You've NEVER had the bar slip past the next (or all the way to the
> >> >> floor) notches? *You know, your finger has a touch of pressure on th
> > e
> >> >> button?
>
> >> > This happened to me on my Archer checkout with the club's chief pilot
> a
> > s
> >> > CFI. I just pulled the first notch back in while holding pitch
> attitude
> > , and
> >> > wiped away the sudden sweat. Keep flying the airplane, and it'll be
> fin
> > e.
>
> >> Were you crossing the threshold @ 40 AGL and seconds from a landing?
>
> >> I agree it's not such a big deal at altitude. *Personally, I want to
> >> avoid leaning over to grab the bar at the moment I mentioned above.
>
> >> Thursday afternoon, I landed in a varying 45 to 60 degree crosswind 15
> >> gusting to 27. *With my luck, that would be the day I drop the bar. 8^(
>
> > Try doing a flapless for more control in a strong xwind?
>
> > Cheers
>
> Hmmmm, other points of view:
>

I don't see that idea contradicted in that article -just discussion of
correct x-wind aeleron technique and nailing speeds. Having minimum or
no flaps (1) reduces ground effect (2) greatly reduce the risk of
upwind wing lifting (3) allows landing a slightly higher air speed
which will reduce the x-wind component and (4) a slightly higher
landing speed allows more rudder authority -so better control. All
these factors help in a strong x-wind and that is what I was told by
all my CFI's and it agrees with my experiences so far... Flaps are
not required for landing any plane that I'm aware of -they help energy
management but a pilot should be able to make a flapless landing just
as good as as a full flap landing -with a slightly longer ground roll
of course.

Where is this wrong?

Cheers

[[email protected]]

On Jul 6, 4:41*pm, More_Flaps > wrote:

> all my CFI's and it agrees with my experiences so far... *Flaps are
> not required for landing any plane that I'm aware of -they help energy
> management but a pilot should be able to make a flapless landing just
> as good as as a full flap landing -with a slightly longer ground roll
> of course.
>
> Where is this wrong?

The above is exactly my experience. My take is that the less I have
hanging out the plane (flaps), the more streamline and wind resistant
I am.

Main reason of course the higher ground roll is due to the higher
stall speed sans flaps.

Even with my level of experience (about 850 hours), I wouldn't do any
high Xwinds landings at Carthage. I'd just go select a more wind
favorable airport and land there or not launch at all.

[john smith]

In article
>,
" > wrote:

> Even with my level of experience (about 850 hours), I wouldn't do any
> high Xwinds landings at Carthage. I'd just go select a more wind
> favorable airport and land there or not launch at all.

I highly recommend reading Leighton Collins' book, TAKEOFFS AND LANDINGS.

[[email protected]]

On Jul 6, 7:05*pm, John Smith > wrote:

> I highly recommend reading Leighton Collins' book, TAKEOFFS AND LANDINGS.

Actually I have. While most books always touch base on technique and
such, this is my self imposed limits.

Now, I can land my plane on a 50 foot wide runway at maximum Xwind
component when called to task, but why?

I have yet to find any reason in my short 7 years of flying to add
more risk or try to shoe horn a landing on a shorter or narrower then
**my normally encountered** runways.

I have very conservative limits when it comes to go and no go and have
not and will not deviate from that. If winds were above my safety
factors, then I'd go to a neighboring airport or concede and use my
car.

The Carthage exercise was to expand on my experiences, not test my
limits as the airplane doesn't care how far the edges of the runway
are as long as I maintain centerline and the edges are wider then the
foot print of my plane. I wanted to experience the narrow runway
illusions that I had never experienced before.

My Xwind landing limits is 17 knots direct Xwind at my own airport
with a 75 foot wide runway.

The Jackson (KJAN) exercise was for working with Ground controllers,
just to keep me sharper in the movement area of an airport that has
more then one taxiway. It is very rare I even go to a controlled
airport, not that I avoid them, just much more convenient for people I
meet up with when I fly (thus the beauty of GA)

[More_Flaps]

On Jul 7, 12:16*pm, Clark > wrote:
> More_Flaps > wrote in news:2b709d3b-fa90-4373-a3e8-
> :
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 7, 8:22*am, Clark > wrote:
> >> More_Flaps > wrote in news:1d23a864-9d7f-4d01-ac12-
> >> :
>
> >> > On Jul 7, 4:38*am, B A R R Y > wrote:
> >> >> Jay Maynard wrote:
> >> >> > On 2008-07-06, B A R R Y > wrote:
> >> >> >> You've NEVER had the bar slip past the next (or all the way to the
> >> >> >> floor) notches? *You know, your finger has a touch of pressure on
> > *th
> >> > e
> >> >> >> button?
>
> >> >> > This happened to me on my Archer checkout with the club's chief
> pilo
> > t
> >> a
> >> > s
> >> >> > CFI. I just pulled the first notch back in while holding pitch
> >> attitude
> >> > , and
> >> >> > wiped away the sudden sweat. Keep flying the airplane, and it'll be
> >> fin
> >> > e.
>
> >> >> Were you crossing the threshold @ 40 AGL and seconds from a landing?
>
> >> >> I agree it's not such a big deal at altitude. *Personally, I want to
> >> >> avoid leaning over to grab the bar at the moment I mentioned above.
>
> >> >> Thursday afternoon, I landed in a varying 45 to 60 degree crosswind
> 15
> >> >> gusting to 27. *With my luck, that would be the day I drop the bar.

[More_Flaps]

On Jul 7, 12:29*pm, " > wrote:
> On Jul 6, 7:05*pm, John Smith > wrote:
>
> > I highly recommend reading Leighton Collins' book, TAKEOFFS AND LANDINGS.
>
> Actually I have. *While most books always touch base on technique and
> such, this is my self imposed limits.
>
> Now, I can land my plane on a 50 foot wide runway at maximum Xwind
> component when called to task, but why?
>
> I have yet to find any reason in my short 7 years of flying to add
> more risk or try to shoe horn a landing on a shorter or narrower then
> **my normally encountered** runways.
>
> I have very conservative limits when it comes to go and no go and have
> not and will not deviate from that. *If winds were above my safety
> factors, then I'd go to a neighboring airport or concede and use my
> car.
>
> The Carthage exercise was to expand on my experiences, not test my
> limits as the airplane doesn't care how far the edges of the runway
> are as long as I maintain centerline and the edges are wider then the
> foot print of my plane. *I wanted to experience the narrow runway
> illusions that I had never experienced *before.
>
> My Xwind landing limits is 17 knots direct Xwind at my own airport
> with a 75 foot wide runway.
>
> The Jackson (KJAN) exercise was for working with Ground controllers,
> just to keep me sharper in the movement area of an airport that has
> more then one taxiway. *It is very rare I even go to a controlled
> airport, not that I avoid them, just much more convenient for people I
> meet up with when I fly (thus the beauty of GA)

Fair enough but honing those skills may pay off for the real FLWOP...

Cheers

[[email protected]]

On Jul 7, 5:16*am, More_Flaps > wrote:

> Fair enough but honing those skills may pay off for the real FLWOP...

Been there BEFORE getting a chance to hone the skills. Shared with
the student newsgroup when a cylinder ghosted up on me.

http://tinyurl.com/5ccbga

Difference in the above was that L31 had a wider runway so I didn't
have that high speed illusion on landing.