Do it yourself??

[flash]

Folks, I've been lurking and reading your group for a good while. I admire
the talent it takes to fly, with or without power, and those who do this.

Looking at the craft at the fields and in the online directories, one sees
hi-dollar, high performance craft everywhere. Is anyone home-building
gliders? Entry-level craft? If so, what are they, and where are the plans
obtained?

I'd possibly be interested in something slightly more capable than the
"Primary" of the 30's, if such were available.

Thanks

Flash

[JS]

Have a look at teh Experimental Soaring Association (used to be called
Sailplane Homebuilders Association) website.
http://www.esoaring.com/

[SoaringXCellence]

On Jul 5, 9:32*pm, JS > wrote:
> Have a look at teh Experimental Soaring Association (used to be called
> Sailplane Homebuilders Association) website.http://www.esoaring.com/

There's a Windrose for sale on Ebay currently.

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 03:50 06 July 2008, Flash wrote:
>
>Looking at the craft at the fields and in the online directories, one
sees
>
>hi-dollar, high performance craft everywhere. Is anyone home-building
>gliders? Entry-level craft? If so, what are they, and where are the
plans
>
>obtained?
>
>I'd possibly be interested in something slightly more capable than the
>"Primary" of the 30's, if such were available.

If what you are *really* looking for is a project, then homebuilding
may be for you. But if what you want to do is to *fly*, then
maybe you should think again. The ratio of completed projects
to finished projects is pretty small. Certainly less than half.

The Windrose is intended to be a self-launcher. That may be
important to you. It is also made of wood, so you'd want to
store it out of the elements. Nothing wrong with wooden
gliders, though. There *can* be a problem with selling an
aircraft you built yourself, once you're ready to move on.

The obvious alternative (assuming you're in the US) is a
1-26. Readily available on the market, it's metal so you
can leave it outside, you can get one in good shape, with
a trailer, reasonably equipped, for under $10K. And yes,
it performs better than a Primary. Not by much, but still
it will get you in the air right away. It's also dead simple
to fly, and you sort of sound like you're just starting
out with your dream. But it's good to get started!

Jim Beckman

[Bill Daniels]

Here's an alternative DIY project.

If you build a sailplane, you'll have to apply some sort of paint or finish
which is about the same amount of work and cost as refinishing an existing
glider. Why not buy an old glider with bad gelcoat and refinish it?

I'd guess it's actually cheaper than building from scratch and you have a
known quantity in terms of structure and aerodynamics. For sure, the
refinished glider will be worth more at resale than a homebuilt.

Bill D


"JS" > wrote in message
...
> Have a look at teh Experimental Soaring Association (used to be called
> Sailplane Homebuilders Association) website.
> http://www.esoaring.com/

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

I started off in primaries; the Schweizer 1-26 is a WHOLE LOT BETTER than a
primary glider. The 1-26 will soar and a primary won't in any ordinary
circumstances.

You can't build even a primary and try to fly it alone without
instruction. Maybe you should take a few lessons somewhere before
starting to build anything or buy something.

At 11:57 06 July 2008, Jim Beckman wrote:
>At 03:50 06 July 2008, Flash wrote:
>>
>>Looking at the craft at the fields and in the online directories, one
>sees
>>
>>hi-dollar, high performance craft everywhere. Is anyone home-building
>>gliders? Entry-level craft? If so, what are they, and where are the
>plans
>>
>>obtained?
>>
>>I'd possibly be interested in something slightly more capable than the

>>"Primary" of the 30's, if such were available.
>
>If what you are *really* looking for is a project, then homebuilding
>may be for you. But if what you want to do is to *fly*, then
>maybe you should think again. The ratio of completed projects
>to finished projects is pretty small. Certainly less than half.
>
>The Windrose is intended to be a self-launcher. That may be
>important to you. It is also made of wood, so you'd want to
>store it out of the elements. Nothing wrong with wooden
>gliders, though. There *can* be a problem with selling an
>aircraft you built yourself, once you're ready to move on.
>
>The obvious alternative (assuming you're in the US) is a
>1-26. Readily available on the market, it's metal so you
>can leave it outside, you can get one in good shape, with
>a trailer, reasonably equipped, for under $10K. And yes,
>it performs better than a Primary. Not by much, but still
>it will get you in the air right away. It's also dead simple
>to fly, and you sort of sound like you're just starting
>out with your dream. But it's good to get started!
>
>Jim Beckman
>
>

[Tony Clark]

Re : Do it youself!

Hi Flash,

I would definitely concur will Bill, in that rather than trying to start
building a wooden glider from scratch I would consider
buying one of the older glass ships and either refinish the surfaces
yourself, as a project, or even pay to get it done as the whole exercise
would not be overly expensive.

A contact of mine at another club recently bought an old 1970's flapped
Vega 17 metre glider at something like £6k (However, this particular model
is an advanced glider to fly!). He sent me an email saying that he is so
'over the moon' with it's handling and performance that for his
personal style of flying he will never need anything else. sSo he is
driving it to Poland for a gel coat re-finishing (which is the cheapest
way to get it done in Europe!)

Another 1970's glider (not so advanced but I understand has been very
popular in the USA) is the'Libelle'. This is a delightful little 15
metre glider that is about the easiest of all to rig. A man and his son or
wife alone could rig it quite easily! It's only downside is limited power
airbrakes, which means a pilot needs to be fairly experienced to ensure
landing it safely in a small field in the event of an outlanding. In the
UK a good Libelle, including trailer, can be bought for under £6k.

Even though 1970's design and manufacture, these gliders have the
advantage over a wooden glider in that they are 'slippery' and have a
good penetration ability - so you can 'go places'. A home build or
vintage 'wooden' ship would almost certainy not have much penetration,
and although they climb well, it's difficult to go anywhere one you're
up at cloudbase. Isn't it better to spend your spare time learing how to
fly a glider and the skills of soaring, rather than spending hundreds of
hours in your workshop!

Additionally, although GRP 'glass' ships should not be kept out in the
sun for more hours than are necessary, they are arguebly far more
resilient than wooden aircraft regarding, rain, humidity, heat, etc. and
normally require not much maintenance (apart from a gel coat re-finishing
every couple of decades or so).

The best of luck whatever road you decide to take!

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 14:27 06 July 2008, Nyal Williams wrote:
>I started off in primaries; the Schweizer 1-26 is a WHOLE LOT BETTER than
a
>primary glider. The 1-26 will soar and a primary won't in any ordinary
>circumstances.

Certainly - just my little joke at a glider that I truly enjoy
flying. (Although I would jump at the chance to fly a
primary glider just for the fun of it.) And let me correct
my words when my brain slipped out of gear with my fingers:

The ratio of completed projects to *started* projects
is pretty small.

The suggestion to buy a production glider in ratty shape
and do the restoration work yourself is an excellent idea.
You can get an early model 1-26 with ragged fabric for
practically nothing, and you'll get all kinds of experience,
including the art of applying aircraft fabric. Note that you
would have to work with an aircraft mechanic during the
project to keep it all safe and legal.

I think we're back to the basic questions that we've all
been guessing at. What is your current situation, and
what is it that you really want? Is low cost the primary
concern? Is being able to say that *you* built the glider
you're flying very attractive to you? The important thing
is to end up with the glider that fits *you*, not what the
rest of us think is the best idea.

Jim Beckman

[Tim Ward[_1_]]

You may be a candidate to build one of Mike Sandlin's "Airchairs".

They're soarable, Floyd Fronius has flown one about 60 miles or so.
They're car toppable.
They're a pretty quick build.
If you want "slightly better than primary glider performance", you might
consider putting a fairing on a GOAT, and reinventing the secondary glider.

Mike's documentation of what he has done (he does not call them plans) are
very complete, and available for free on his website.

Take a look at http://home.att.net/~m--sandlin/bug.htm and see if that meets
your criteria.

If you don't already fly, you'll still need instruction in something with
three-axis controls.

Tim Ward

[flash]

"Flash" > wrote in message
...
> Folks, I've been lurking and reading your group for a good while. I admire
> the talent it takes to fly, with or without power, and those who do this.
>



Thanks, all, for the reasoned and reasonable response.

I guess I've got to go to the gliderport and mooch a ride or two, and listen
a lot.

I have flight experience in T-34, T-37, a half a century ago, courtesy the
USAF. And 10 hrs dual in a Cessna 150, a decade ago. Now, I'm sort-of
*retired*, and wondering if the urge to fly is as strong as it was in the
past.

There was a homebuilder in my area, a few years ago. He still had the record
for the largest single-engine all-wood personally designed and built - and
it was still in his hangar when he went west. Two others of his homebuilts
were there, then, too. His record was five, he was building #6. He was my
impetus to consider homebuilding. I even bought the plans and material to
build a Bounsall Super Prospector, but in moving to smaller quarters three
years ago, I donated it all to the local EAA chapter.

But the option of buy ratty and restore might work best, and I hadn't given
that any thought, before. It just might be time to go shopping, and the
gliderport might be the first, best stop.

Again, thank you all for the sound responses.

Flash

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Flash" > wrote in message
...
<...>
> But the option of buy ratty and restore might work best, and I hadn't
> given that any thought, before. It just might be time to go shopping,
> and the gliderport might be the first, best stop.
>

Projects often show up here: http://wingsandwheels.com/Used%20Parts.htm
or here
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Trading_Post/The_Trading_Post.html


--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[[email protected]]

On Jul 7, 6:39*pm, "Flash" > wrote:
> "Flash" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Folks, I've been lurking and reading your group for a good while. I admire
> > the talent it takes to fly, with or without power, and those who do this.
>
> Thanks, all, for the reasoned and reasonable response.
>
> I guess I've got to go to the gliderport and mooch a ride or two, and listen
> a lot.
>
> I have flight experience in T-34, T-37, a half a century ago, courtesy the
> USAF. And 10 hrs dual in a Cessna 150, a decade ago. *Now, I'm sort-of
> *retired*, and wondering if the urge to fly is as strong as it was in the
> past.
>
> There was a homebuilder in my area, a few years ago. He still had the record
> for the largest single-engine all-wood personally designed and built - *and
> it was still in his hangar when he went west. Two others of his homebuilts
> were there, then, too. His record was five, he was building #6. He was my
> impetus to consider homebuilding. I even bought the plans and material to
> build a Bounsall Super Prospector, but in moving to smaller quarters three
> years ago, I donated it all to the local EAA chapter.
>
> But the option of buy ratty and restore might work best, and I hadn't given
> that any thought, before. *It just might be time to go shopping, and the
> gliderport might be the first, best stop.
>
> Again, thank you all for the sound responses.
>
> Flash

I suggest that you forget about buying a used glider and join a club.
After all, you have A LOT of training to do to get certified. You will
be (probably) flying new a/c NOW, instead of a year or more. Also,
your training will obviously be done dual, eliminating the need for
your own personal glider. There are a lot of subtleties about
purchasing a used glider that can't be answered here. In the mean
time, you will lower your costs, both acquisition and maintenance, by
pooling your resources with a decent club (which can be located at
www.ssa.org).

JMTCW

[Tony Clark]

On 9th July '08 JMYCW reponded to 'Flash' :-

I suggest that you forget about buying a used glider and join a club.
After all, you have A LOT of training to do to get certified. You will be
(probably) flying new aircraft NOW, instead of in a year or more. Also,
your training will obviously be done dual, eliminating the need for your
own personal glider. There are a lot of subtleties about purchasing a used
glider that can't be answered here. In the meantime, you will lower your
costs, both acquisition and maintenance, by pooling your resources with a
decent club (which can be located at www.ssa.org).

JMTCW

__________________________________________________


Hi JMTCW,

I am sure that every other thread contributor that has given personal
advice to 'Flash' totally agrees with what you have written above
regarding joinind a gliding club and starting dual gliding training
lessons NOW! I am sure that in the USA most clubs (as inthe UK) would
have the option of an extended aerotow "Trial flying lesson" prior to
any commitment to the Annual Membership Fee. It is just that I (and I am
sure all the other thread contributors) took it for granted that to start
glider pilot training now (or at least very soon) in a modern dual
sailplane was initially the obvious way forward (even if this was not
immediately obvious to 'Flash').

What I (and I am sure the others) were doing (to encourage 'Flash') was
meanwhile to just discuss the possible options that would present
themselves in the medium or long-term future regarding self or
co-ownership of a sailplane.

Additionally, I am not sure what happens in gliding clubs/groups 'States
side' but in the UK the norm soon after training to solo level is to
set-up or buy-into a co-ownership syndicate. However, probably about 15%
of glider pilots (who have stayed in the sport medium to long term) never
enter into private ownership in any form and spend their entire gliding
years flying the club single-seaters.

In summary JMTCW, I would say that all the contributors to this thread
(including yourself of course) are in total agreement. It's just that
some of us did not initially express ourselves clearly and took for
granted (that may not have been obvious to 'Flash' at the time) that to
start dual training very soon is the 'one and only' initial
recommendation that we would make! All the other aspects and
considerations can be considered during dual training.

Regards

[[email protected]]

On Jul 9, 12:27*am, Tony Clark > wrote:
> On 9th July '08 JMYCW reponded to 'Flash' :-
>
> I suggest that you forget about buying a used glider and join a club.
> After all, you have A LOT of training to do to get certified. You will be
> (probably) flying new aircraft NOW, instead of in a year or more. Also,
> your training will obviously be done dual, eliminating the need for your
> own personal glider. There are a lot of subtleties about purchasing a used
> glider that can't be answered here. In the meantime, you will lower your
> costs, both acquisition and maintenance, by pooling your resources with a
> decent club (which can be located atwww.ssa.org).
>
> JMTCW
>
> __________________________________________________
>
> Hi JMTCW,
>
> I am sure that every other thread contributor that has given personal
> advice to 'Flash' totally agrees with what you have written above
> regarding joinind a gliding club and starting dual gliding training
> lessons NOW! *I am sure that in the USA most clubs (as inthe UK) would
> have the option of an extended aerotow "Trial flying lesson" prior to
> any commitment to the Annual Membership Fee. It is just that I (and I am
> sure all the other thread contributors) took it for granted that to start
> glider pilot training now (or at least very soon) in a modern dual
> sailplane was initially the obvious way forward (even if this was not
> immediately obvious to 'Flash').
>
> What I (and I am sure the others) were doing (to encourage 'Flash') was
> meanwhile to just discuss the possible options that would present
> themselves in the medium or long-term future regarding self or
> co-ownership of a sailplane.
>
> Additionally, I am not sure what happens in gliding clubs/groups 'States
> side' but in the UK the norm soon after training to solo level is to
> set-up or buy-into a co-ownership syndicate. However, probably about 15%
> of glider pilots (who have stayed in the sport medium to long term) never
> enter into private ownership in any form and spend their entire gliding
> years flying the club single-seaters.
>
> In summary JMTCW, I would say that all the contributors to this thread
> (including yourself of course) are in total agreement. It's just that
> some of us did not initially express ourselves clearly and took for
> granted (that may not have been obvious to 'Flash' at the time) that to
> start dual training very soon is the 'one and only' initial
> recommendation that we would make! All the other aspects and
> considerations can be considered during dual training.
>
> Regards
>
>

Thanks for the clarification. Many of our minds are racing full-speed
ahead from training-to-solo-to-certificate-to-get disenfranchise with
the club equipment (I shudder to think who long ago I went thru that
process!). Flash really needs to think about STEP 1 first. He/she can
run out and buy a used glider at any time.

JMTCW

[flash]

> wrote in message
...
On Jul 9, 12:27 am, Tony Clark > wrote:
> On 9th July '08 JMYCW reponded to 'Flash' :-
>
> I suggest that you forget about buying a used glider and join a club.
> After all, you have A LOT of training to do to get certified. You will be
> (probably) flying new aircraft NOW, instead of in a year or more. Also,
> your training will obviously be done dual, eliminating the need for your
> own personal glider. There are a lot of subtleties about purchasing a used
> glider that can't be answered here. In the meantime, you will lower your
> costs, both acquisition and maintenance, by pooling your resources with a
> decent club (which can be located atwww.ssa.org).
>
> JMTCW
>
> __________________________________________________
>
> Hi JMTCW,
>
> I am sure that every other thread contributor that has given personal
> advice to 'Flash' totally agrees with what you have written above
> regarding joinind a gliding club and starting dual gliding training
> lessons NOW! I am sure that in the USA most clubs (as inthe UK) would
> have the option of an extended aerotow "Trial flying lesson" prior to
> any commitment to the Annual Membership Fee. It is just that I (and I am
> sure all the other thread contributors) took it for granted that to start
> glider pilot training now (or at least very soon) in a modern dual
> sailplane was initially the obvious way forward (even if this was not
> immediately obvious to 'Flash').
>
> What I (and I am sure the others) were doing (to encourage 'Flash') was
> meanwhile to just discuss the possible options that would present
> themselves in the medium or long-term future regarding self or
> co-ownership of a sailplane.
>
> Additionally, I am not sure what happens in gliding clubs/groups 'States
> side' but in the UK the norm soon after training to solo level is to
> set-up or buy-into a co-ownership syndicate. However, probably about 15%
> of glider pilots (who have stayed in the sport medium to long term) never
> enter into private ownership in any form and spend their entire gliding
> years flying the club single-seaters.
>
> In summary JMTCW, I would say that all the contributors to this thread
> (including yourself of course) are in total agreement. It's just that
> some of us did not initially express ourselves clearly and took for
> granted (that may not have been obvious to 'Flash' at the time) that to
> start dual training very soon is the 'one and only' initial
> recommendation that we would make! All the other aspects and
> considerations can be considered during dual training.
>
> Regards
>
>

Thanks for the clarification. Many of our minds are racing full-speed
ahead from training-to-solo-to-certificate-to-get disenfranchise with
the club equipment (I shudder to think who long ago I went thru that
process!). Flash really needs to think about STEP 1 first. He/she can
run out and buy a used glider at any time.

JMTCW

Folks, THAT is exactly what I needed to hear. And, prefaced as it was, by
a number of thoughtful posts, makes elemental sense.

I guess it is time to drive over the hill to the glider operation. There
certainly are a wealth of them to choose from here in PA.(Pure Appalachia).

With great regard and thanks,

Flash