automotive parts on airplane engines

[Wallace Berry]

Automotive alternators are sometimes installed on certified airplanes.
Are automotive (or any other type) starters ever used on a certified
engine. For instance, is there a Delco automotive equivalent to the
starter on a C85?

Thanks,

Wallace

[Ken Sandyeggo]

Wallace Berry > wrote in message >...
> Automotive alternators are sometimes installed on certified airplanes.
> Are automotive (or any other type) starters ever used on a certified
> engine. For instance, is there a Delco automotive equivalent to the
> starter on a C85?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Wallace

The statute of limitations expired, so yes, I have had a C-85
generator rebuilt at an auto shop several times, made a nifty landing
light flasher for about 8 bucks with parts from Pep Boys and know of
others that have used auto parts. Now someone is going to come along
and say that if you do and something happens and they find
non-approved parts on your plane, you could get in trouble. I always
had more important things to worry about. I'm sure that you could
find an automotive starter to fit at NAPA. Or let the government
inspect the one you want and pay 4.329 to 8.784 times more. Chances
are that if you crash-land off airport, an FAA type will show up and
merely check your pilot's certificate, medical and airworthiness
certificate......in fact I'm absolutely sure of it...at least in one
instance. I doubt that anyone would even think of checking to see if
your starter was "approved." All you have to say in the rare event
they did was: "That's the one that was on there when I bought the
plane." Make sure you don't log an unapproved part.

KJSDCAUSA

[Wallace Berry]

In article >,
(Ken Sandyeggo) wrote:

> Wallace Berry > wrote in message
> >...
> > Automotive alternators are sometimes installed on certified airplanes.
> > Are automotive (or any other type) starters ever used on a certified
> > engine. For instance, is there a Delco automotive equivalent to the
> > starter on a C85?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Wallace
>
> The statute of limitations expired, so yes, I have had a C-85
> generator rebuilt at an auto shop several times, made a nifty landing
> light flasher for about 8 bucks with parts from Pep Boys and know of
> others that have used auto parts. Now someone is going to come along
> and say that if you do and something happens and they find
> non-approved parts on your plane, you could get in trouble. I always
> had more important things to worry about. I'm sure that you could
> find an automotive starter to fit at NAPA. Or let the government
> inspect the one you want and pay 4.329 to 8.784 times more. Chances
> are that if you crash-land off airport, an FAA type will show up and
> merely check your pilot's certificate, medical and airworthiness
> certificate......in fact I'm absolutely sure of it...at least in one
> instance. I doubt that anyone would even think of checking to see if
> your starter was "approved." All you have to say in the rare event
> they did was: "That's the one that was on there when I bought the
> plane." Make sure you don't log an unapproved part.
>
> KJSDCAUSA

Thanks for the reply. I can probably find the correct certified starter
for my C-85 used. However, I may very well look into trying to match up
an auto starter. My C-85 is actually not a "certified" engine anymore as
it has high compression pistons and a high performance cam. It is on my
Stits SA6b which is obviously a plans built aircraft. For now I'm using
the "Hemingway" starter.

[Big John]

Wallace

Owned a shop where we wholesale repaired auto starters and generators
some years ago. Used to get a number or pilots bringing in their
starter for repair. Word of mouth got around. We would :

1. Rebuild the bendix.
2. Put new bearings in.
3. Put new brushes in.
4. Turn and under cut the commutator.
5. Check proper operation of rebuilt unit.
6. Charged them the standard auto starter rebuild rate.

Worked like new when we gave back to pilot for installation.

Check around and tell shop you need their expert to work on your A/C
unit.

Big John

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:32:57 -0500, Wallace Berry
> wrote:

>In article >,
> (Ken Sandyeggo) wrote:
>
>> Wallace Berry > wrote in message
>> >...
>> > Automotive alternators are sometimes installed on certified airplanes.
>> > Are automotive (or any other type) starters ever used on a certified
>> > engine. For instance, is there a Delco automotive equivalent to the
>> > starter on a C85?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Wallace
>>
>> The statute of limitations expired, so yes, I have had a C-85
>> generator rebuilt at an auto shop several times, made a nifty landing
>> light flasher for about 8 bucks with parts from Pep Boys and know of
>> others that have used auto parts. Now someone is going to come along
>> and say that if you do and something happens and they find
>> non-approved parts on your plane, you could get in trouble. I always
>> had more important things to worry about. I'm sure that you could
>> find an automotive starter to fit at NAPA. Or let the government
>> inspect the one you want and pay 4.329 to 8.784 times more. Chances
>> are that if you crash-land off airport, an FAA type will show up and
>> merely check your pilot's certificate, medical and airworthiness
>> certificate......in fact I'm absolutely sure of it...at least in one
>> instance. I doubt that anyone would even think of checking to see if
>> your starter was "approved." All you have to say in the rare event
>> they did was: "That's the one that was on there when I bought the
>> plane." Make sure you don't log an unapproved part.
>>
>> KJSDCAUSA
>
>Thanks for the reply. I can probably find the correct certified starter
>for my C-85 used. However, I may very well look into trying to match up
>an auto starter. My C-85 is actually not a "certified" engine anymore as
>it has high compression pistons and a high performance cam. It is on my
>Stits SA6b which is obviously a plans built aircraft. For now I'm using
>the "Hemingway" starter.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Wallace Berry > wrote:

> In article >,
> (Ken Sandyeggo) wrote:
>
> > Wallace Berry > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > Automotive alternators are sometimes installed on certified airplanes.
> > > Are automotive (or any other type) starters ever used on a certified
> > > engine. For instance, is there a Delco automotive equivalent to the
> > > starter on a C85?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Wallace
> >
> > The statute of limitations expired, so yes, I have had a C-85
> > generator rebuilt at an auto shop several times, made a nifty landing
> > light flasher for about 8 bucks with parts from Pep Boys and know of
> > others that have used auto parts. Now someone is going to come along
> > and say that if you do and something happens and they find
> > non-approved parts on your plane, you could get in trouble. I always
> > had more important things to worry about. I'm sure that you could
> > find an automotive starter to fit at NAPA. Or let the government
> > inspect the one you want and pay 4.329 to 8.784 times more. Chances
> > are that if you crash-land off airport, an FAA type will show up and
> > merely check your pilot's certificate, medical and airworthiness
> > certificate......in fact I'm absolutely sure of it...at least in one
> > instance. I doubt that anyone would even think of checking to see if
> > your starter was "approved." All you have to say in the rare event
> > they did was: "That's the one that was on there when I bought the
> > plane." Make sure you don't log an unapproved part.
> >
> > KJSDCAUSA
>
> Thanks for the reply. I can probably find the correct certified starter
> for my C-85 used. However, I may very well look into trying to match up
> an auto starter. My C-85 is actually not a "certified" engine anymore as
> it has high compression pistons and a high performance cam. It is on my
> Stits SA6b which is obviously a plans built aircraft. For now I'm using
> the "Hemingway" starter.

I remember years ago my AI stating that "starters are NOT PMA
equipment." This implies that ther is really no such thing as a
"certified starter."

[Ron Natalie]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...

> I remember years ago my AI stating that "starters are NOT PMA
> equipment." This implies that ther is really no such thing as a
> "certified starter."

I don't believe it.

[Ken Sandyeggo]

Wallace Berry > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (Ken Sandyeggo) wrote:
>
> > Wallace Berry > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > Automotive alternators are sometimes installed on certified airplanes.
> > > Are automotive (or any other type) starters ever used on a certified
> > > engine. For instance, is there a Delco automotive equivalent to the
> > > starter on a C85?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Wallace
> >
> > The statute of limitations expired, so yes, I have had a C-85
> > generator rebuilt at an auto shop several times, made a nifty landing
> > light flasher for about 8 bucks with parts from Pep Boys and know of
> > others that have used auto parts. Now someone is going to come along
> > and say that if you do and something happens and they find
> > non-approved parts on your plane, you could get in trouble. I always
> > had more important things to worry about. I'm sure that you could
> > find an automotive starter to fit at NAPA. Or let the government
> > inspect the one you want and pay 4.329 to 8.784 times more. Chances
> > are that if you crash-land off airport, an FAA type will show up and
> > merely check your pilot's certificate, medical and airworthiness
> > certificate......in fact I'm absolutely sure of it...at least in one
> > instance. I doubt that anyone would even think of checking to see if
> > your starter was "approved." All you have to say in the rare event
> > they did was: "That's the one that was on there when I bought the
> > plane." Make sure you don't log an unapproved part.
> >
> > KJSDCAUSA
>
> Thanks for the reply. I can probably find the correct certified starter
> for my C-85 used. However, I may very well look into trying to match up
> an auto starter. My C-85 is actually not a "certified" engine anymore as
> it has high compression pistons and a high performance cam. It is on my
> Stits SA6b which is obviously a plans built aircraft. For now I'm using
> the "Hemingway" starter.

Didn't know for sure it was in an experimental...I know, "rec.aviation
homebuilt." You can use anything you want on an experimental, log it
and be legal.

KJSDCAUSA

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:32:57 -0500, Wallace Berry
> wrote:

>Thanks for the reply. I can probably find the correct certified starter
>for my C-85 used. However, I may very well look into trying to match up
>an auto starter. My C-85 is actually not a "certified" engine anymore as
>it has high compression pistons and a high performance cam. It is on my
>Stits SA6b which is obviously a plans built aircraft. For now I'm using
>the "Hemingway" starter.

I think you'll have trouble with the generator, and very possibly the
starter as well. Since the units are gear-driven, the cases have to have
the appropriate hardware for mounting to the aircraft engine. If you've
got a pull-start C-85, I suspect your chances of finding an automotive
replacement are even lower.

But if you do, pullleeeze let me know. The units on my C-85 aren't of the
best of shape, and I'd love to pick up something automotive that'll work.

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:40:55 -0500, Big John > wrote:

]] Owned a shop where we wholesale repaired auto starters and generators
]] some years ago. Used to get a number or pilots bringing in their
]] starter for repair. Word of mouth got around.

When I took my C-85's generator to the local auto electric rebuilder, the
shop guy took a look at it and said, "DON'T tell me what that came off of."
His management didn't allow him to work on aviation units. I told him it
was from an "Off Road Vehicle" and he was satisfied.

One bit of warning, the auto and aviation regulators look very similar, but
apparently don't work the same. The aviation regulator has the three
terminals unevenly spaced, rather than evenly spaced like the automotive
units. When my airplane wouldn't charge, I replaced my regulator with an
automotive one before going through the work to remove the generator. I
eventually had the generator rebuilt, but when I put it on the airplane, I
still didn't get a charge until I restored the original aircraft regulator.

Ron Wanttaja

[JDupre5762]

>I remember years ago my AI stating that "starters are NOT PMA
>equipment." This implies that ther is really no such thing as a
>"certified starter."

Sounds like an Old AI tale. If he meant OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer)
then he is most certainly wrong. Whatever starter the engine maker approved is
the proper starter for that engine and is therefore approved or if you will
certified. It will have a part number assigned by the engine maker no matter
what number the starter manufacturer may have given it. Other starters may
work by they ain't legal.

PMA means Parts Manufacturing Authority and is the approval that after market
makers of parts must get to have approved parts legally capable of being
installed on approved equipment.

John Dupre'


John Dupre'

[Wallace Berry]

In article >,
Ron Wanttaja > wrote:

>
>
> I think you'll have trouble with the generator, and very possibly the
> starter as well. Since the units are gear-driven, the cases have to have
> the appropriate hardware for mounting to the aircraft engine. If you've
> got a pull-start C-85, I suspect your chances of finding an automotive
> replacement are even lower.
>
> But if you do, pullleeeze let me know. The units on my C-85 aren't of the
> best of shape, and I'd love to pick up something automotive that'll work.
>
> On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:40:55 -0500, Big John > wrote:
>
> ]] Owned a shop where we wholesale repaired auto starters and generators
> ]] some years ago. Used to get a number or pilots bringing in their
> ]] starter for repair. Word of mouth got around.
>
> When I took my C-85's generator to the local auto electric rebuilder, the
> shop guy took a look at it and said, "DON'T tell me what that came off of."
> His management didn't allow him to work on aviation units. I told him it
> was from an "Off Road Vehicle" and he was satisfied.
>
> One bit of warning, the auto and aviation regulators look very similar, but
> apparently don't work the same. The aviation regulator has the three
> terminals unevenly spaced, rather than evenly spaced like the automotive
> units. When my airplane wouldn't charge, I replaced my regulator with an
> automotive one before going through the work to remove the generator. I
> eventually had the generator rebuilt, but when I put it on the airplane, I
> still didn't get a charge until I restored the original aircraft regulator.
>
> Ron Wanttaja


Thanks for the comments and info. You are almost certainly right about
the slim chance of finding a bolt on automotive replacement for an
aircraft starter. I also doubt that one could easily build a workable
adapter. I'm extremely ignorant of the particulars of aircraft starters,
but I've learned a bit in the last few days. I can see that my original
question was naive to say the least. It's just that aircraft and
automotive (and lawnmower for that matter) starters look similar and are
usually made by the same companies.

For my particular application, I wasn't planning on installing a
generator.The weight of a starter is just enough ballast up front to
take care of C of G concerns (passenger, bags, fuel burn interaction) in
my little plane. I only need the starter to work two or three times at
most during a day. The battery can be charged overnight. My C-85 starts
pretty easy by hand propping if I'm careful not to flood it.

I'll keep on investigating the possibility that there is some automotive
starter(s) out there that is the parent of the starter(s) used on C-85s.
Even if it turns out that there is such a beast, it probably has been
out of production since 1950.

Fly safe,

Wallace
Glasflugel H301 N301BW
Stits SA6b N5423M

[Frank]

How about combo generator and starter? Works good on lawn tractors. Or a
belt drive starter.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:19:42 -0500, Wallace Berry
> wrote:

>For my particular application, I wasn't planning on installing a
>generator.The weight of a starter is just enough ballast up front to
>take care of C of G concerns (passenger, bags, fuel burn interaction) in
>my little plane. I only need the starter to work two or three times at
>most during a day.

Definitely leave off the generator...if you have an "engine-driven
electrical system", you need a transponder to fly within the 30-nm "Veil"
around Class B airspace. If you leave off the generator, you'll only need
a transponder if you actually want to enter Class B or C airspace.

As you mention, all you really need is a battery to turn the starter a
couple of times per day, and a trickle charger at the airport. My plane
has a recessed 3-prong socket (a 120V unit with one prong turned sideways)
in the belly, wired to the battery. I have the matching plug attached to
my charger. If I want to charge the battery, I just plug it in....

Ron Wanttaja

[James Lloyd]

I do not think that you will find an auto starter for your C-85.I have
looked for years.You might find an auto shop that will rebuild yours for
you and like someone said,it is for your boat or airboat.

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:52:28 -0400 (EDT), (James
Lloyd) wrote:

>I do not think that you will find an auto starter for your C-85.I have
>looked for years.You might find an auto shop that will rebuild yours for
>you and like someone said,it is for your boat or airboat.
Nope, its for my "leaf blower"

[Warren & Nancy]

Ron Wanttaja wrote:

>
>
> One bit of warning, the auto and aviation regulators look very similar, but
> apparently don't work the same. The aviation regulator has the three
> terminals unevenly spaced, rather than evenly spaced like the automotive
> units. When my airplane wouldn't charge, I replaced my regulator with an
> automotive one before going through the work to remove the generator. I
> eventually had the generator rebuilt, but when I put it on the airplane, I
> still didn't get a charge until I restored the original aircraft regulator.
>
>

When I lived in Florida, I needed a new regulator for my Mooney. The going
price was quite stiff. I contacted Delco and found an automotive regulator
with the same specs as the aircraft one. The only difference was the thickness
of the base plate. It was in the Mooney for about 5 years, when I finally had
an electircal problem, and the A&P wouldn't recertify the airplane unless I
replaced the regulator with a "aircraft" one. I think I still have it
somewhere downstairs.

Warren

[Jim Weir]

What? You guys haven't figured out yet how to paint across the "automobile"
part numbers? Or put on an "airplane" sticker that means nothing?

Jim


It was in the Mooney for about 5 years, when I finally had
->an electircal problem, and the A&P wouldn't recertify the airplane unless I
->replaced the regulator with a "aircraft" one. I think I still have it
->somewhere downstairs.
->
->Warren
->

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com