LAHSO Procedures

[RandyL[_2_]]

I have a question that has come up in another newsgroup, that I have
always wondered about. When I received my flight training, my instructor
told me not to accept any Land And Hold Short Operations (LAHSO)
instructions from ATC until I had received training in those procedures -
which I never did. Does a licensed pilot (not a student) have to be
officially "certified" to perform any LAHSO procedures? And if so, how does
one go about becoming certified? Or can any licensed pilot perform LAHSO
procedures, as long as he has first received training in said procedures? If
that is the case, how does ATC know that a pilot has received LAHSO
training? Does ATC just assume that if a pilot accepts LAHSO instruction,
that the pilot is familiar and has been trained in those procedures? Is
LAHSO procedure training something that just needs to be logged in your
logbook and endorsed by a CFI? Just curious...

Randy L.

--
Remember: Any landing that you can walk away from,
is a landing that you can be fined, sued, or prosecuted for.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

RandyL wrote:
>
> I have a question that has come up in another newsgroup, that I
> have always wondered about. When I received my flight training, my
> instructor told me not to accept any Land And Hold Short Operations
> (LAHSO) instructions from ATC until I had received training in those
> procedures - which I never did. Does a licensed pilot (not a student)
> have to be officially "certified" to perform any LAHSO procedures?
>

No.

[BT]

I'll agree with Steve's reply..
There is not log book endorsement for LAHSO.
You as the pilot can either choose to accept or deny the LASHO "request"
from ATC.
Can you readily identify the point that you are to hold short of? Normally a
crossing runway and there should be markings on the landing runway that is
your limit.
Is your approach " under control" and you feel you can safely land and stop
before the designated LAHSO limit.
Remember.. you are giving up part of your runway.. and any options of a go
around.. the tower and the other pilot is banking on you being able to do
what you say you will.

If it's your home airport, you may be familiar with it. If it's not your
home.. it's your decision.
Is the tower asking you to LAHSO and taking the last 2,000ft of a 10,000ft
runway.. leaving you 8,000ft to land and stop in your C-172?
Or is he taking 2000ft from a 5000ft runway and leaving you only 3000ft. Not
an issue to land most light GA aircraft in 3000ft.
But if you accept it.. the pressure is on to perform.

BT

"RandyL" > wrote in message
...
> I have a question that has come up in another newsgroup, that I have
> always wondered about. When I received my flight training, my instructor
> told me not to accept any Land And Hold Short Operations (LAHSO)
> instructions from ATC until I had received training in those procedures -
> which I never did. Does a licensed pilot (not a student) have to be
> officially "certified" to perform any LAHSO procedures? And if so, how
> does one go about becoming certified? Or can any licensed pilot perform
> LAHSO procedures, as long as he has first received training in said
> procedures? If that is the case, how does ATC know that a pilot has
> received LAHSO training? Does ATC just assume that if a pilot accepts
> LAHSO instruction, that the pilot is familiar and has been trained in
> those procedures? Is LAHSO procedure training something that just needs to
> be logged in your logbook and endorsed by a CFI? Just curious...
>
> Randy L.
>
> --
> Remember: Any landing that you can walk away from,
> is a landing that you can be fined, sued, or prosecuted for.

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-07-09, BT > wrote:
> Remember.. you are giving up part of your runway.. and any options of a go
> around..

Sorry, but that's incorrect. See the last sentence of AIM 4-3-11(b)(5):

"A LAHSO clearance does not preclude a rejected landing."

If you need to go around after accepting a LAHSO clearance, you should
maintain safe separation from other aircraft and notify the controller ASAP
(see 4-3-11(b)(6)).
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)

[BT]

good catch... thanx Maynard..
and then you could end up with a near miss at the intersection
BT

"Jay Maynard" > wrote in message
...
> On 2008-07-09, BT > wrote:
>> Remember.. you are giving up part of your runway.. and any options of a
>> go
>> around..
>
> Sorry, but that's incorrect. See the last sentence of AIM 4-3-11(b)(5):
>
> "A LAHSO clearance does not preclude a rejected landing."
>
> If you need to go around after accepting a LAHSO clearance, you should
> maintain safe separation from other aircraft and notify the controller
> ASAP
> (see 4-3-11(b)(6)).
> --
> Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
> Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
> AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)

[BillJ]

RandyL wrote:
> I have a question that has come up in another newsgroup, that I have
> always wondered about. When I received my flight training, my instructor
> told me not to accept any Land And Hold Short Operations (LAHSO)
> instructions from ATC until I had received training in those procedures
> - which I never did. Does a licensed pilot (not a student) have to be
> officially "certified" to perform any LAHSO procedures? And if so, how
> does one go about becoming certified? Or can any licensed pilot perform
> LAHSO procedures, as long as he has first received training in said
> procedures? If that is the case, how does ATC know that a pilot has
> received LAHSO training? Does ATC just assume that if a pilot accepts
> LAHSO instruction, that the pilot is familiar and has been trained in
> those procedures? Is LAHSO procedure training something that just needs
> to be logged in your logbook and endorsed by a CFI? Just curious...
>
> Randy L.
>
The controllers know your aircraft type and they have a list (at least
they did at CLE when RW 36 was a LAHSO) of compatible types vs. landing
distance. So if they request it,they have a good idea it is safe.

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

RandyL wrote:
> I have a question that has come up in another newsgroup, that I have
> always wondered about. When I received my flight training, my instructor
> told me not to accept any Land And Hold Short Operations (LAHSO)
> instructions from ATC until I had received training in those procedures
> - which I never did. Does a licensed pilot (not a student) have to be
> officially "certified" to perform any LAHSO procedures? And if so, how
> does one go about becoming certified? Or can any licensed pilot perform
> LAHSO procedures, as long as he has first received training in said
> procedures? If that is the case, how does ATC know that a pilot has
> received LAHSO training? Does ATC just assume that if a pilot accepts
> LAHSO instruction, that the pilot is familiar and has been trained in
> those procedures? Is LAHSO procedure training something that just needs
> to be logged in your logbook and endorsed by a CFI? Just curious...
>
> Randy L.
>

While there is no requirement for a PP to have any sort of certification
to accept a LAHSO, accepting one is like accepting any other clearance
from ATC. If you don't know how to do it say "unable." If you are
uncomfortable with the specifics of a LAHSO say "unable."

I do think it is kind of strange that while your CFI understood that a
LAHSO clearance shouldn't be taken lightly he didn't teach them to you
before he sent you out for your check ride.

[RandyL[_2_]]

Thank you to all who responded. This has helped clear up this question for
me. I appreciate the help!

Randy L.

--
"When making an emergency off-field landing at night,
turn on the landing light just prior to touchdown.
If you don't like what you see, then turn off the landing light."

"RandyL" > wrote in message
...
> I have a question that has come up in another newsgroup,

[Steven Barnes]

*Student* pilots cannot accept LAHSO. As others have said, once you've got a
certificate, no problem.

"RandyL" > wrote in message
...
> Thank you to all who responded. This has helped clear up this question for
> me. I appreciate the help!
>
> Randy L.
>
> --
> "When making an emergency off-field landing at night,
> turn on the landing light just prior to touchdown.
> If you don't like what you see, then turn off the landing light."
>
> "RandyL" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I have a question that has come up in another newsgroup,
>

[kontiki[_2_]]

RandyL wrote:
> Thank you to all who responded. This has helped clear up this question
> for me. I appreciate the help!
>
> Randy L.
>

If you have listened to ATIS (as you should have) it should have
informed you that LAHSO are in efect so you can be prepped for
the request and have time to review the runway lengths and
airport diagram if you want.

But as other posters have stated, it usually no problem for a
typical small GA aircraft (the kind you likely be flying as a PP)
to deal with any LAHSO request you might get. If you are rusty
then practice some short field landings.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

BT wrote:
>
> I'll agree with Steve's reply..
> There is not log book endorsement for LAHSO.
> You as the pilot can either choose to accept or deny the LASHO
> "request" from ATC.
>

It's not a request, it's part of a clearance. If you refuse the restriction
to hold short you've also refused the landing clearance. Many pilots seem
genuinely surprised when the ATC response to their refusal of LAHSO is
something other than a clearance to land without the restriction.


>
> Can you readily identify the point that you are to hold short of?
>

You can if you meet the vision requirements of a Class III or better medical
and are familiar with airport markings and signage as you should be.


>
> Normally a crossing runway and there should be markings on the
> landing runway that is your limit.
> Is your approach " under control" and you feel you can safely land
> and stop before the designated LAHSO limit.
> Remember.. you are giving up part of your runway.. and any options of
> a go around.. the tower and the other pilot is banking on you being
> able to do what you say you will.
>

Not so. Acceptance of LAHSO does not preclude a go-around.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

BT wrote:
>
> good catch... thanx Maynard..
> and then you could end up with a near miss at the intersection
>

Or you could turn crosswind before reaching the intersection.

[Tman]

On a LAHSO, if i need to go around (which apparently, I can from the
language), do I still need to hold short, i.e. turn crosswind before
approaching the intersection? Do I turn left or right -- is that
cleared up before the decision to go around?

Or if I go around, it it just accepted that a.) we all hope the
conflicting traffic landing doesn't go around and quite the same moment,
and b.) one should think fast and keep their eyes open...

T


RandyL wrote:
> I have a question that has come up in another newsgroup, that I have
> always wondered about. When I received my flight training, my instructor
> told me not to accept any Land And Hold Short Operations (LAHSO)
> instructions from ATC until I had received training in those procedures
> - which I never did. Does a licensed pilot (not a student) have to be
> officially "certified" to perform any LAHSO procedures? And if so, how
> does one go about becoming certified? Or can any licensed pilot perform
> LAHSO procedures, as long as he has first received training in said
> procedures? If that is the case, how does ATC know that a pilot has
> received LAHSO training? Does ATC just assume that if a pilot accepts
> LAHSO instruction, that the pilot is familiar and has been trained in
> those procedures? Is LAHSO procedure training something that just needs
> to be logged in your logbook and endorsed by a CFI? Just curious...
>
> Randy L.
>

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-07-16, Tman <x@x> wrote:
> On a LAHSO, if i need to go around (which apparently, I can from the
> language), do I still need to hold short, i.e. turn crosswind before
> approaching the intersection? Do I turn left or right -- is that
> cleared up before the decision to go around?

Fly the airplane and do what you need to. It's the tower's problem to keep
everyone going in different directions. They may well instruct you to change
heading (and will, at some point, tell you where to go); until then, they'll
assume you'll fly runway heading.

> Or if I go around, it it just accepted that a.) we all hope the
> conflicting traffic landing doesn't go around and quite the same moment,
> and b.) one should think fast and keep their eyes open...

Yes...but this is no different from usual. See and avoid doesn't go away
just because there's a control tower there.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)