Desert MOA's

[Uncle Fuzzy]

Please be careful out there. I just got an earful from a fighter
pilot who said he had an 'encounter' with a glider over the Pahranagat
valley tuesday afternoon. That's a VERY busy corridor Monday through
Friday.

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
> Please be careful out there. I just got an earful from a fighter
> pilot who said he had an 'encounter' with a glider over the Pahranagat
> valley tuesday afternoon. That's a VERY busy corridor Monday through
> Friday.

Damn pesky gliders, blasting all over SHARED USE airspace at near
supersonic speeds, not paying the least bit of attention to the
occasional fighter jock that gets in their way...

[Tuno]

I'm confused. He gave you an earful? ... when you had the right-of-
way? I'm missing something here ... think think think ...

[Uncle Fuzzy]

On Jul 10, 9:46*am, Tuno > wrote:
> I'm confused. He gave you an earful? ... when you had the right-of-
> way? I'm missing something here ... think think think ...

Sorry all, I misstated. I didn't get an 'earful'. More of a heads
up. Yep, the glider not only has the right to be there, but the right-
of-way as well. The mil pilot just wanted to emphasize that's just
about the busiest corridor in a MOA in the US.

[Jim Logajan]

Tuno > wrote:
> I'm confused. He gave you an earful? ... when you had the right-of-
> way? I'm missing something here ... think think think ...

Here's what you're missing:

The other pilot was flying the latest USAF weapon: a balloon fighter
aircraft - something the enemy would never expect!

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

Wasn't the subject line MOA?

At 16:46 10 July 2008, Tuno wrote:
>I'm confused. He gave you an earful? ... when you had the right-of-
>way? I'm missing something here ... think think think ...
>

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

Tuno wrote:
> I'm confused. He gave you an earful? ... when you had the right-of-
> way? I'm missing something here ... think think think ...

Must have been Navy. I have a habit of contacting the listed
controlling party when I'm about to enter an MOA. USAF controllers are
usually very helpful, advise me where the traffic is likely to be, and
have never been an issue. Typical Navy exchange:

me: Fallon Approach, glider N303MR slash uniform at 15000 feet 20 miles
south of Austin, will be transiting Gabbs Central MOA, heading towards
Hawthorne.

Fallon: N303MR Gabb Central MOA is currently in use, stay clear, also
[lists off every MOA and Restricted area under his control] in use, stay
clear.

me: Fallon Approach, N303MR is unable to comply, entering Gabbs Central
now, please advise traffic in the area.

Then I switch back to 123.3...

[Jim Logajan]

Nyal Williams > wrote:
>
> Wasn't the subject line MOA?

Is that relevant? I can't find any qualifiers in the FARs indicating that
changes the right-of-way regulation.

> At 16:46 10 July 2008, Tuno wrote:
>>I'm confused. He gave you an earful? ... when you had the right-of-
>>way? I'm missing something here ... think think think ...
>>

[Tuno]

<< Wasn't the subject line MOA? >>

Yeah, so? A MOA is a sandbox where mil aircraft are supposed to play;
it is not an exclusion zone, for civil/GA to stay out of (unless
you’re a power-mad airspace-grabbing bureaucrat working for the Luke
AFB CG).

Glad to hear that the original exchange was really a "heads-up". I
like hearing those from the heavy metal!

~ted/2NO

[Mike125]

Nice epitaph - "He had the right-of-way"

Mike

[Uncle Fuzzy]

On Jul 10, 11:25*am, Mike125 > wrote:
> Nice epitaph - "He had the right-of-way"
>
> Mike

+1

[Jim Logajan]

Mike125 > wrote:
> Nice epitaph - "He had the right-of-way"

That concept is something I suspect everyone learns about when they first
learn to cross streets. (Though it appears it's worth Usenet "points". ;-)
)

I presume Nyal meant to use "Wasn't the subject line MOA?" as a rhetorical
question somehow. If he meant "You should expect military traffic in an
MOA" then I don't see how that expectation differs from standard
expectations of traffic in any airspace and the dangers of see-and-avoid
complacency.

But it brings up a question that I as a student would be interested in
hearing opinions on: given that "He had the right-of-way" is a lousy
epitaph, how many posters conclude from that (or other lines of thought)
that it is never (for themselves at least) advisable to fly a glider into
an active MOA - or one that you don't have information on current activity
status?

[Tim Taylor]

On Jul 10, 12:55 pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> Mike125 > wrote:
> > Nice epitaph - "He had the right-of-way"
>
> That concept is something I suspect everyone learns about when they first
> learn to cross streets. (Though it appears it's worth Usenet "points". ;-)
> )
>
> I presume Nyal meant to use "Wasn't the subject line MOA?" as a rhetorical
> question somehow. If he meant "You should expect military traffic in an
> MOA" then I don't see how that expectation differs from standard
> expectations of traffic in any airspace and the dangers of see-and-avoid
> complacency.
>
> But it brings up a question that I as a student would be interested in
> hearing opinions on: given that "He had the right-of-way" is a lousy
> epitaph, how many posters conclude from that (or other lines of thought)
> that it is never (for themselves at least) advisable to fly a glider into
> an active MOA - or one that you don't have information on current activity
> status?

Should you fly in one? Yes, but it means you should use caution and
common sense. If you don't have a transponder it is advisable to
communicate with the area controllers. I often cut through the MOA's
in Utah and Nevada in both gliders and power aircraft. I always
contact the control agency and usually monitor the frequency while in
their space (only switch if we have a flight of gliders and need to
communicate between ourselves). I also try to be courteous and call
as I am leaving so that they know I have left their sector.

[5Z]

On Jul 10, 12:55*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> But it brings up a question that I as a student would be interested in
> hearing opinions on: given that "He had the right-of-way" is a lousy
> epitaph, how many posters conclude from that (or other lines of thought)
> that it is never (for themselves at least) advisable to fly a glider into
> an active MOA - or one that you don't have information on current activity
> status?

If you look at a chart of the southwestern USA, it's about 90% MOA and
restricted areas. Nearly impossible to make a flight of any
consequence without flying through one. And many controlling agencies
opt out for the easy "no entry" response to a request for transition,
so unfortunately, it becomes easier to just not ask.

But, there are also some agreements between "always hot" restricted
areas and glider pilots for occasional transitions. I once, long ago
and before GPS, brokered such a deal for a regional contest to allow
us to fly through a portion of a restricted area. Then on Monday, I
got a call that some sailplanes had been spotted thermalling over the
ridge a few miles inside the well publicized and easy to identify
boundary of the still hot portion. Several of us who kept to the
bargain, ended up landing out as most of the lift in the area was over
that ridge.
(Sigh....)

[Mike Schumann]

A right of way doesn't help you when they can't see you in time.

Mike Schumann

"Uncle Fuzzy" > wrote in message
...
On Jul 10, 9:46 am, Tuno > wrote:
> I'm confused. He gave you an earful? ... when you had the right-of-
> way? I'm missing something here ... think think think ...

Sorry all, I misstated. I didn't get an 'earful'. More of a heads
up. Yep, the glider not only has the right to be there, but the right-
of-way as well. The mil pilot just wanted to emphasize that's just
about the busiest corridor in a MOA in the US.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[Eric Greenwell]

Mike Schumann wrote:
> A right of way doesn't help you when they can't see you in time.

If they don't see you in time, it's also a problem for them. I suppose
that's part of the reason they are cranky about civilian MOA traffic.

The problem appears to be using MOAs safely. What methods work? I list
some ideas, ordered by my guess of effectiveness, best to worst:

* avoiding them when they are in use would work the best, of course.
* I assume using a transponder would be almost as good.
* Perhaps using a PCAS like the Zaon MRX might alert you adequately.
* staying out of an MOA when it's "very busy" would help, but that seems
difficult to determine if you are always told "don't go in", regardless
of the amount of military traffic in it.
* transit it with a gaggle, so more eyes are looking and the group is
easier to see than an individual glider.
* really, really, looking around so much it makes your neck hurt.
* informing the controlling agency that you will be there.

Do power planes, which always have transponders, have the same access
problems gliders do; i.e., are the MOA controllers against any civilian
traffic, against only transponderless traffic, or just picking on gliders?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[jb92563]

On Jul 10, 10:21*am, Marc Ramsey > wrote:
> Tuno wrote:
> > I'm confused. He gave you an earful? ... when you had the right-of-
> > way? I'm missing something here ... think think think ...
>
> Must have been Navy. *I have a habit of contacting the listed
> controlling party when I'm about to enter an MOA. *USAF controllers are
> usually very helpful, advise me where the traffic is likely to be, and
> have never been an issue. *Typical Navy exchange:
>
> me: Fallon Approach, glider N303MR slash uniform at 15000 feet 20 miles
> south of Austin, will be transiting Gabbs Central MOA, heading towards
> Hawthorne.
>
> Fallon: N303MR Gabb Central MOA is currently in use, stay clear, also
> [lists off every MOA and Restricted area under his control] in use, stay
> clear.
>
> me: Fallon Approach, N303MR is unable to comply, entering Gabbs Central
> now, please advise traffic in the area.
>
> Then I switch back to 123.3...

I like Marc's approach.

Simply notify the controlling agency in an area where we are perfectly
legal to be in, and ask them
to notify other traffic.

Just because the traffic controllers don't want to be bothered, you
simply don't take "Buzz off" as an answer
but simply advise them what your are doing and make them do their
their job.

Then if someone streaks by you, you can complain to the FAA that air
traffic is not doing their job at this center.

[Mike the Strike]

Also note that transponders may not be of any help in a MOA. In a
recent dispute over the use of an Arizona MOA during a Regional
Contest a couple of years ago, we were informed that F16s using the
area had no means of identifying a transponder-equipped aircraft and
were flying under visual rules. Controllers may have been able to see
us but said they had no way to assist with avoidance of their
aircraft.

Mike

[BT]

>
> Do power planes, which always have transponders, have the same access
> problems gliders do; i.e., are the MOA controllers against any civilian
> traffic, against only transponderless traffic, or just picking on gliders?
>

When a civil transponder beacon return is identified by watchful eyes as
being in and transiting the MOA during military flight operations.
A "knock it off" call is made and everyone goes to a safe altitude and
airspace area.

In the mentioned case, the glider was in the "corridor" within the MOA used
by the military to climb and descend into and out of the MOA from the near
by military base.

Be careful out there folks.. there is a major training exercise going on for
the next month and a lot of foreign countries are participating with their
aircraft.

BT

[bagmaker]

A right of way doesn't help you when they can't see you in time.

If they don't see you in time, it's also a problem for them. I suppose
that's part of the reason they are cranky about civilian MOA traffic.

The problem appears to be using MOAs safely. What methods work? I list
some ideas, ordered by my guess of effectiveness, best to worst:

* avoiding them when they are in use would work the best, of course.
* I assume using a transponder would be almost as good.
* Perhaps using a PCAS like the Zaon MRX might alert you adequately.
* staying out of an MOA when it's "very busy" would help, but that seems
difficult to determine if you are always told "don't go in", regardless
of the amount of military traffic in it.
* transit it with a gaggle, so more eyes are looking and the group is
easier to see than an individual glider.
* really, really, looking around so much it makes your neck hurt.
* informing the controlling agency that you will be there.

Do power planes, which always have transponders, have the same access
problems gliders do; i.e., are the MOA controllers against any civilian
traffic, against only transponderless traffic, or just picking on gliders?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org[/QUOTE]



Perhaps a picture of Osama on the tail, they dont seem to be able to hit him!



Bagger (rolling, diving for cover)

[Wayne Paul]

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
news:DDudk.1252$bn3.526@trnddc07...
> Do power planes, which always have transponders, have the same access
> problems gliders do; i.e., are the MOA controllers against any civilian
> traffic, against only transponderless traffic, or just picking on gliders?

Eric,

According to the AOPA's website this is not just a glider problem.
(http://www.aopa.org/flightplanning/articles/2008/080707f-16.html)
Be sure to watch the video. (5 megs.)

See you in a few weeks at Mackay,

Wayne
HP-14 "Six Foxtrot"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

[Tuno]

Wow, thanks for posting that Wayne, a real ear-opening video!

KM's son flew KM at Parowan R9, he's an F-16 flight instructor at
Luke, I'd like to pick his brain about this video.

2NO