Sanding of plywood before epoxy

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Sanding beaks the fibers producing a less strong lap joint.
So what if you use good one side plywood - is the lap joint going to
be weaker because it is sanded?

[Morgans[_2_]]

> wrote in message
...
> Sanding beaks the fibers producing a less strong lap joint.
> So what if you use good one side plywood - is the lap joint going to
> be weaker because it is sanded?

Yep, though strength is not usually an issue, unless it is for gussets or
sheer webs.

To prepare plywood for max glue strength, use a cabinet scraper before glue
is applied. Don't let a lot of time elapse between the scraping and gluing.
--
Jim in NC

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:11:42 -0700 (PDT), "
> wrote:

>Sanding beaks the fibers producing a less strong lap joint.
>So what if you use good one side plywood - is the lap joint going to
>be weaker because it is sanded?

I think that this old bugaboo might have been valid back in the days
of resorcinol formaldehyde adhesives but I havent found it to be valid
at all with epoxy.

sanding breaks the fibres.
well what do you think cabinet scrapers do???
that is how you end up with a smooth surface. you abrade/cut/grind
down anything poking above the surface.

plywood lap joints are usually finish sanded and it is necessary to
have the surface of the lap actually flat on both parts or you will
get a weaker joint.

in any case none of this sanding vs cabinet scrapers vs broken glass
argument matters a toss.
make some standard test pieces by whatever method *you* use and after
letting the adhesive cure off, break them.
if they break through the joint the glue work is useless. if they
break through the wood and never through the joint then the glue work
is ok. end of story.

I sand every joint face in every piece I glue and never ever have I
had a glue joint break in a test piece.

the important things in joining with epoxy arent sanding or scraping.
they are....
absolutely no oil contamination of the joint.
no wax contamination.
no water contamination.
both pieces of wood at the same moisture content.
no loose dust in the joint area.
epoxy correctly mixed.
epoxy joint clamped in position with an appropriate gentle pressure.
joint not clamped so hard that the glue is squeezed totally out of the
joint.
absolutely no joint movement until the epoxy is fully cured.

and lastly but most importantly
cure the epoxy in the proper temperature range.

note that I sand with 80 grade orbital sandpaper glued to a flat block
and my final sanding preparation is done by hand. I achieve a pretty
nice surface.
if you machine sand and burn the surface dont expect a serviceable
joint.

ymmv but do the test pieces!
Stealth Pilot

[cavelamb himself[_4_]]

Stealth Pilot wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:11:42 -0700 (PDT), "
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Sanding beaks the fibers producing a less strong lap joint.
>>So what if you use good one side plywood - is the lap joint going to
>>be weaker because it is sanded?
>
>

I seem to recall that Birch faced plywood, because of the heat and
pressure used in making it, has to be santed to break the surface
glaze before gluing.

Mahogany and the rest don't have that problem.

One of the Mil Spec docs?



Richard

--
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Now just why the HELL do I have to press 1 for English?
John Wayne

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 07:44:48 -0500, cavelamb himself
> wrote:

>Stealth Pilot wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:11:42 -0700 (PDT), "
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Sanding beaks the fibers producing a less strong lap joint.
>>>So what if you use good one side plywood - is the lap joint going to
>>>be weaker because it is sanded?
>>
>>
>
>I seem to recall that Birch faced plywood, because of the heat and
>pressure used in making it, has to be santed to break the surface
>glaze before gluing.
>
>Mahogany and the rest don't have that problem.
>
>One of the Mil Spec docs?
>
>
>
>Richard

all plywoods should be sanded because all plywoods are heated and
pressed between steel plates to make them.
the glue is presented as a film between the wood plys. the heating
activates it as a bonding agent.

....well, all as in all the plywoods you'd consider using.
there are probably plywoods made in asia by people and water buffaloes
sitting on them.

Stealth Pilot

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Stealth Pilot" > wrote

> sanding breaks the fibres.
> well what do you think cabinet scrapers do???

According to what I read, the fibers breaking is not the probem It is the
sanding dust filling the pores of the wood, so glue does not soak in as
well.

When this came up before, one of the builders did test blocks, and found the
same results as was present in FPH.

> I sand every joint face in every piece I glue and never ever have I
> had a glue joint break in a test piece.
>
> the important things in joining with epoxy arent sanding or scraping.
> they are....
> absolutely no oil contamination of the joint.
> no wax contamination.
> no water contamination.
> both pieces of wood at the same moisture content.
> no loose dust in the joint area.
> epoxy correctly mixed.
> epoxy joint clamped in position with an appropriate gentle pressure.
> joint not clamped so hard that the glue is squeezed totally out of the
> joint.
> absolutely no joint movement until the epoxy is fully cured.
>
> and lastly but most importantly
> cure the epoxy in the proper temperature range.

Agree with the above, in practice, anyway. The difference between a flat
sanded surface and a flat scrapped or planned surface has got to be pretty
darn small, and like I said, in plywood, the difference is likely not very
important.
--
Jim in NC

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:59:16 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Stealth Pilot" > wrote
>
>> sanding breaks the fibres.
>> well what do you think cabinet scrapers do???
>
>According to what I read, the fibers breaking is not the probem It is the
>sanding dust filling the pores of the wood, so glue does not soak in as
>well.
>
>When this came up before, one of the builders did test blocks, and found the
>same results as was present in FPH.
>
>> I sand every joint face in every piece I glue and never ever have I
>> had a glue joint break in a test piece.
>>
>> the important things in joining with epoxy arent sanding or scraping.
>> they are....
>> absolutely no oil contamination of the joint.
>> no wax contamination.
>> no water contamination.
>> both pieces of wood at the same moisture content.
>> no loose dust in the joint area.
>> epoxy correctly mixed.
>> epoxy joint clamped in position with an appropriate gentle pressure.
>> joint not clamped so hard that the glue is squeezed totally out of the
>> joint.
>> absolutely no joint movement until the epoxy is fully cured.
>>
>> and lastly but most importantly
>> cure the epoxy in the proper temperature range.
>
>Agree with the above, in practice, anyway. The difference between a flat
>sanded surface and a flat scrapped or planned surface has got to be pretty
>darn small, and like I said, in plywood, the difference is likely not very
>important.

most certainly blow all the dust out. thinner (hotter) epoxy
penetrates best.

Stealth Pilot