Glider Cockpit with 4 Varios! Why?

[ContestID67]

http://www.canadabizmart.com/bootstrapper/collection/spectacular-cockpit-photos/

This web site has some nice pictures of aircraft cockpits, including
two gliders. If you scroll down you will find an LS-4 flying
inverted.

What caught my eye is that there appears to be four (4) varios in the
instrument panel. My soaring friends have been scratching our heads
trying to understand why you would ever need four varios in a single
glider.

Can anyone give some valid reasons why this would be useful?

Thanks, John DeRosa

[vontresc]

On Jul 16, 10:57*am, ContestID67 > wrote:
> http://www.canadabizmart.com/bootstrapper/collection/spectacular-cock...
>
> This web site has some nice pictures of aircraft cockpits, including
> two gliders. *If you scroll down you will find an LS-4 flying
> inverted.
>
> What caught my eye is that there appears to be four (4) varios in the
> instrument panel. *My soaring friends have been scratching our heads
> trying to understand why you would ever need four varios in a single
> glider.
>
> Can anyone give some valid reasons why this would be useful?
>
> Thanks, John DeRosa

Hmm looks like he has a Peschges VP4 installed which would account for
three of the four varios. The VP4 has a vario, and a speed to fly
output. I think those are the 2 top ones. So in essence there are only
2 vario systems installed in the LS. One electronic, and one manual.

Pete

[Kloudy via AviationKB.com]

ContestID67 wrote:

>
>What caught my eye is that there appears to be four (4) varios in the
>instrument panel.

Hmm,
I only see three.

Still, seems a bit much.
I usually fly with the electric and one mechanical.

I'm interested in hearing rationale for more than that.

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/soaring/200807/1

[Kloudy via AviationKB.com]

Kloudy wrote:
>>What caught my eye is that there appears to be four (4) varios in the
>>instrument panel.
>
>Hmm,
>I only see three.

Duuuh.

I see the Peschges now.

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

[Tuno]

<< I only see three. Still, seems a bit much. >>

Not at all. I fly with one mechanical (in case of battery failure) and
two electric -- a 302 that is my backup logger, and an LX7007 that is
my primary.

The mechanical uses pure TE compensation, of course. The 302 is set to
netto compensation, the LX's to relative netto. So while there are
three varios, there is no redundant information.

~ted/2NO

[Bruce]

Just a thought - why would you install a mechanical vario in a new glider? (flame suit on)

Just thinking - you can easily have two completely separate electrical systems. Solar panels are expensive, but not
relative to the cost of all that carbon. It causes all sorts of nasty interference mixing capacity flasks and transducer
varios on a single TE probe.

So why would you not have two electronic varios - there is so much more you can do with them. They have no- or virtually
no moving parts to wear, and they are in my experience faster and more accurate.

So why install mechanical varios in a new high tech glide? Convince me.

Bruce

Tuno wrote:
> << I only see three. Still, seems a bit much. >>
>
> Not at all. I fly with one mechanical (in case of battery failure) and
> two electric -- a 302 that is my backup logger, and an LX7007 that is
> my primary.
>
> The mechanical uses pure TE compensation, of course. The 302 is set to
> netto compensation, the LX's to relative netto. So while there are
> three varios, there is no redundant information.
>
> ~ted/2NO

[Tuno]

Well, to tell you the truth, my "mechanical" vario, isn't -- it's a
B40 (electric), that lets me switch to an internal battery if I have a
problem with the main batteries, bus, or fuse.

But it was mechanical in my last glider -- a Sage that came with the
V2C.

2NO

[Ian]

On 16 Jul, 20:37, Bruce > wrote:

> So why install mechanical varios in a new high tech glide? Convince me.

How well do electric ones react to nearby lightning bolts? Apart from
that, isn't it an awful lot easier to fit a mechanical vario than it
is to fit a complete second electrical system?

Ian "All mechanical cockpit" J

[Bruce]

Hi Ian

Lightning is best avoided. But in the event it is not avoidable, my limited experience is that a strike that is near
enough to knock out a GPS has no effect on a Tasman vario. Presume this is because of the aerial on the GPS.

My guess would be that - If you get hit hard enough to knock out your electronic varios you will probably not be
particularly worried about thermalling.

Bruce

Ian wrote:
> On 16 Jul, 20:37, Bruce > wrote:
>
>> So why install mechanical varios in a new high tech glide? Convince me.
>
> How well do electric ones react to nearby lightning bolts? Apart from
> that, isn't it an awful lot easier to fit a mechanical vario than it
> is to fit a complete second electrical system?
>
> Ian "All mechanical cockpit" J

[kirk.stant]

On Jul 16, 4:35*pm, Ian > wrote:
> On 16 Jul, 20:37, Bruce > wrote:
>
> > So why install mechanical varios in a new high tech glide? Convince me.
>
> How well do electric ones react to nearby lightning bolts? Apart from
> that, isn't it an awful lot easier to fit a mechanical vario than it
> is to fit a complete second electrical system?
>
> Ian "All mechanical cockpit" J

I'm totally in the "all electric" camp. Tossed my mechanical 8 years
ago, replaced with a nice Ilec electric backup (with audio), and
haven't had a problem since. Primary is an SN10. Both agree all the
time.

And 2 electrical systems are only slightly more work than one, if done
at the same time.

Given more funds, I would replace the Ilec with something that has
electronic TE, so that losing the probe wouldn't fail both varios - my
current single point of failure...

Mechanical varios belong with barographs - on the shelf behind the
club bar. Especially on club ships, where good varios with audio are
really needed, yet rare (at least in the US).

Cheers,

Kirk
66

[Martin Gregorie[_3_]]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:35:28 -0700, Ian wrote:

> On 16 Jul, 20:37, Bruce > wrote:
>
>> So why install mechanical varios in a new high tech glide? Convince me.
>
> How well do electric ones react to nearby lightning bolts? Apart from
> that, isn't it an awful lot easier to fit a mechanical vario than it
> is to fit a complete second electrical system?
>
Depends on which type you pick for your backup vario.

I have a single electric system fitted. I use an SDI C4 as my main
vario and a Borgelt B.40 as backup. Normally the electrical system drives
both varios, but the B.40 has its factory-supplied backup system. A 9v PP3
strapped to it and it has a three position power switch (Ext-Off-Int) to
select its power source. As the B.40 is said to run for about 24 hours on
a PP3, its as likely to get me home as a mechanical unit. I swap the PP3
annually.

The B.40 was no harder to install than a mechanical backup, eliminates
capacity vs pressure sensor problems and is safer in backup mode than a
mechanical because it is an audio vario.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. |
org | Zappa fan & glider pilot

[Don Johnstone[_3_]]

A PP3 battery packs in when it is cold as I know to my cost. I lost a
diamond height claim because a brand new batttery in the logger failed. A
suck and blow vario never suffers from lack of power.
If you are not going high enough to get that cold the the below is a
perfectly reasonable approach.

A man with two watches is never quite sure of the time.

At 23:45 16 July 2008, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:35:28 -0700, Ian wrote:
>
>> On 16 Jul, 20:37, Bruce wrote:
>>
>>> So why install mechanical varios in a new high tech glide? Convince
me.
>>
>> How well do electric ones react to nearby lightning bolts? Apart from
>> that, isn't it an awful lot easier to fit a mechanical vario than it
>> is to fit a complete second electrical system?
>>
>Depends on which type you pick for your backup vario.
>
>I have a single electric system fitted. I use an SDI C4 as my main
>vario and a Borgelt B.40 as backup. Normally the electrical system
drives
>both varios, but the B.40 has its factory-supplied backup system. A 9v
PP3
>strapped to it and it has a three position power switch (Ext-Off-Int) to
>select its power source. As the B.40 is said to run for about 24 hours
on
>a PP3, its as likely to get me home as a mechanical unit. I swap the PP3
>annually.
>
>The B.40 was no harder to install than a mechanical backup, eliminates
>capacity vs pressure sensor problems and is safer in backup mode than a
>mechanical because it is an audio vario.
>
>
>--
>martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>gregorie. |
>org | Zappa fan & glider pilot
>
>
>

[Nick Kennedy]

At 23:45 16 July 2008, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:35:28 -0700, Ian wrote:
>
>> On 16 Jul, 20:37, Bruce wrote:
>>
>>> So why install mechanical varios in a new high tech glide? Convince
me.

>> In my ASW-20 I have a 302 and a Winter mechanical vario and I think if
your a serious XC pilot it is important to have a good TE compensated
mechanical vario on board and heres why:

Ely Nevada July 2006: I was 145 miles north on a big day[ way the hell out
in the middle of nowhere BTW ] and slowly my 302 starts acting strange and
slowly, over about 15 minutes my ASI goes to zero. Well the pitot pressure
drives the 302 and let me tell you, without it, the 302 is completely
unusable. I was having a big flight and did not want to turn off the
302, because I would lose the logger. So I took a piece of chewing gum
and a piece of paper turned down the volume to zero and covered the
instrument face. I flew 6 more hours and turned in a 1000+ km OLC claim.
the next day I pulled my pitot line and blew a bug out of the front of it,
problem solved. What a bug is doing coring a thermal at 17,000' I'll
never know, maybe he was a hang glider pilot in his past life.

Labor Day weekend 2004 Salida Colorado.
Flying with the Boulder Club, I get in my ship and [ It was gonna be cold]
with my big boots on, catch and break off the power switch...hmmmm,bummer,
If I get out of the launch line, [ this was going to be another big day ]
I would lose my flying buddies and the chance to max out the day.
So I took off with a Garmin 12 logger and only my Winter Mechanical vario
and did 400 miles.

It takes a few minutes to get used to flying with the mechanical, silent
vario in your scan [ with the 302 I almost Never look at it, I fly 99% by
the tones] but after a bit, the peace and quiet is NICE, for a change.
These were a couple of experiences I had where having a simple, but high
quality T.E. compensated Mechanical vario in the panel saved the day!

Nick Kennedy
XS & TF
>> How well do electric ones react to nearby lightning bolts? Apart from
>> that, isn't it an awful lot easier to fit a mechanical vario than it
>> is to fit a complete second electrical system?
>>
>Depends on which type you pick for your backup vario.
>
>I have a single electric system fitted. I use an SDI C4 as my main
>vario and a Borgelt B.40 as backup. Normally the electrical system
drives
>both varios, but the B.40 has its factory-supplied backup system. A 9v
PP3
>strapped to it and it has a three position power switch (Ext-Off-Int) to
>select its power source. As the B.40 is said to run for about 24 hours
on
>a PP3, its as likely to get me home as a mechanical unit. I swap the PP3
>annually.
>
>The B.40 was no harder to install than a mechanical backup, eliminates
>capacity vs pressure sensor problems and is safer in backup mode than a
>mechanical because it is an audio vario.
>
>
>--
>martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>gregorie. |
>org | Zappa fan & glider pilot
>
>
>

[Tupperware Pilot]

If you think that panel was to much then check this one out!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tupperware_pilot/2285936536/
Loads of gadgets in this one!
TP

[Tupperware Pilot]

If you think that panel was to much then check this one out!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tupperware_pilot/2285936536/
Loads of gadgets in this one!
TP

[Jim White[_2_]]

At 02:56 17 July 2008, Nick Kennedy wrote:
>At 23:45 16 July 2008, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:35:28 -0700, Ian wrote:
>>
>>> On 16 Jul, 20:37, Bruce wrote:
>>>
>>>> So why install mechanical varios in a new high tech glide? Convince
>me.
>
Haven't yet seen an electric vario that is as pretty as my 80mm Sage.

Jim

ps:They also all have ****y little displays.

[finalglide]

On Jul 16, 4:57*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> http://www.canadabizmart.com/bootstrapper/collection/spectacular-cock...
>
> This web site has some nice pictures of aircraft cockpits, including
> two gliders. *If you scroll down you will find an LS-4 flying
> inverted.
>
> What caught my eye is that there appears to be four (4) varios in the
> instrument panel. *My soaring friends have been scratching our heads
> trying to understand why you would ever need four varios in a single
> glider.
>
> Can anyone give some valid reasons why this would be useful?
>
> Thanks, John DeRosa

I suggest that as he's upside down and still going up, or do varios
reverse their lift/sink needle positions if you're upside down? :-),
and his varios don't appear to agree with each other anyway, it might
be more useful to just get his tail number so you can scarper if he
joins you in a thermal.

Martin

[Cliff Hilty]

I think we should clarify by "electric" we actually mean "audio" Most
electric varios still get there information by pnuematics ie a static and
TE probe and are driven electrically. I had an electrically compensated
Ball vario (no TE Probe and absolutly hated it. Its compensation changed
during the flight with temperature and was very confusing. Using the SN10
now and 66's discarded Sage from a glider or two ago. I use the Sage
mostly when low and scratching to help center small lift and the SN10 for
everything else.

At 21:55 16 July 2008, kirk.stant wrote:
>On Jul 16, 4:35=A0pm, Ian wrote:
>> On 16 Jul, 20:37, Bruce wrote:
>>
>> > So why install mechanical varios in a new high tech glide? Convince
>me.
>>
>> How well do electric ones react to nearby lightning bolts? Apart from
>> that, isn't it an awful lot easier to fit a mechanical vario than it
>> is to fit a complete second electrical system?
>>
>> Ian "All mechanical cockpit" J
>
>I'm totally in the "all electric" camp. Tossed my mechanical 8 years
>ago, replaced with a nice Ilec electric backup (with audio), and
>haven't had a problem since. Primary is an SN10. Both agree all the
>time.
>
>And 2 electrical systems are only slightly more work than one, if done
>at the same time.
>
>Given more funds, I would replace the Ilec with something that has
>electronic TE, so that losing the probe wouldn't fail both varios - my
>current single point of failure...
>
>Mechanical varios belong with barographs - on the shelf behind the
>club bar. Especially on club ships, where good varios with audio are
>really needed, yet rare (at least in the US).
>
>Cheers,
>
>Kirk
>66
>

[Cliff Hilty]

I think we should clarify by "electric" we actually mean "audio" Most
electric varios still get there information by pnuematics ie a static and
TE probe and are driven electrically. I had an electrically compensated
Ball vario (no TE Probe and absolutly hated it. Its compensation changed
during the flight with temperature and was very confusing. Using the SN10
now and 66's discarded Sage from a glider or two ago. I use the Sage
mostly when low and scratching to help center small lift and the SN10 for
everything else.

At 21:55 16 July 2008, kirk.stant wrote:
>On Jul 16, 4:35=A0pm, Ian wrote:
>> On 16 Jul, 20:37, Bruce wrote:
>>
>> > So why install mechanical varios in a new high tech glide? Convince
>me.
>>
>> How well do electric ones react to nearby lightning bolts? Apart from
>> that, isn't it an awful lot easier to fit a mechanical vario than it
>> is to fit a complete second electrical system?
>>
>> Ian "All mechanical cockpit" J
>
>I'm totally in the "all electric" camp. Tossed my mechanical 8 years
>ago, replaced with a nice Ilec electric backup (with audio), and
>haven't had a problem since. Primary is an SN10. Both agree all the
>time.
>
>And 2 electrical systems are only slightly more work than one, if done
>at the same time.
>
>Given more funds, I would replace the Ilec with something that has
>electronic TE, so that losing the probe wouldn't fail both varios - my
>current single point of failure...
>
>Mechanical varios belong with barographs - on the shelf behind the
>club bar. Especially on club ships, where good varios with audio are
>really needed, yet rare (at least in the US).
>
>Cheers,
>
>Kirk
>66
>

[Cliff Hilty]

I think we should clarify by "electric" we actually mean "audio" Most
electric varios still get there information by pnuematics ie a static and
TE probe and are driven electrically. I had an electrically compensated
Ball vario (no TE Probe and absolutly hated it. Its compensation changed
during the flight with temperature and was very confusing. Using the SN10
now and 66's discarded Sage from a glider or two ago. I use the Sage
mostly when low and scratching to help center small lift and the SN10 for
everything else.

At 21:55 16 July 2008, kirk.stant wrote:
>On Jul 16, 4:35=A0pm, Ian wrote:
>> On 16 Jul, 20:37, Bruce wrote:
>>
>> > So why install mechanical varios in a new high tech glide? Convince
>me.
>>
>> How well do electric ones react to nearby lightning bolts? Apart from
>> that, isn't it an awful lot easier to fit a mechanical vario than it
>> is to fit a complete second electrical system?
>>
>> Ian "All mechanical cockpit" J
>
>I'm totally in the "all electric" camp. Tossed my mechanical 8 years
>ago, replaced with a nice Ilec electric backup (with audio), and
>haven't had a problem since. Primary is an SN10. Both agree all the
>time.
>
>And 2 electrical systems are only slightly more work than one, if done
>at the same time.
>
>Given more funds, I would replace the Ilec with something that has
>electronic TE, so that losing the probe wouldn't fail both varios - my
>current single point of failure...
>
>Mechanical varios belong with barographs - on the shelf behind the
>club bar. Especially on club ships, where good varios with audio are
>really needed, yet rare (at least in the US).
>
>Cheers,
>
>Kirk
>66
>

[Cliff Hilty]

I think we should clarify by "electric" we actually mean "audio" Most
electric varios still get there information by pnuematics ie a static and
TE probe and are driven electrically. I had an electrically compensated
Ball vario (no TE Probe and absolutly hated it. Its compensation changed
during the flight with temperature and was very confusing. Using the SN10
now and 66's discarded Sage from a glider or two ago. I use the Sage
mostly when low and scratching to help center small lift and the SN10 for
everything else.

At 21:55 16 July 2008, kirk.stant wrote:
>On Jul 16, 4:35=A0pm, Ian wrote:
>> On 16 Jul, 20:37, Bruce wrote:
>>
>> > So why install mechanical varios in a new high tech glide? Convince
>me.
>>
>> How well do electric ones react to nearby lightning bolts? Apart from
>> that, isn't it an awful lot easier to fit a mechanical vario than it
>> is to fit a complete second electrical system?
>>
>> Ian "All mechanical cockpit" J
>
>I'm totally in the "all electric" camp. Tossed my mechanical 8 years
>ago, replaced with a nice Ilec electric backup (with audio), and
>haven't had a problem since. Primary is an SN10. Both agree all the
>time.
>
>And 2 electrical systems are only slightly more work than one, if done
>at the same time.
>
>Given more funds, I would replace the Ilec with something that has
>electronic TE, so that losing the probe wouldn't fail both varios - my
>current single point of failure...
>
>Mechanical varios belong with barographs - on the shelf behind the
>club bar. Especially on club ships, where good varios with audio are
>really needed, yet rare (at least in the US).
>
>Cheers,
>
>Kirk
>66
>

[kirk.stant]

On Jul 17, 9:26*am, Cliff Hilty >
wrote:
> I think we should clarify by "electric" we actually mean "audio" Most
> electric varios still get there information by pnuematics ie a static and
> TE probe and are driven electrically. I had an electrically compensated
> Ball vario (no TE Probe and absolutly hated it. Its compensation changed
> during the flight with temperature and was very confusing. Using the SN10
> now and 66's discarded Sage from a glider or two ago. I use the Sage
> mostly when low and scratching to help center small lift and the SN10 for
> everything else.
>

The Sage is probably the only mechanical vario I would consider using
(fast response plus high "cool" factor) but I didn't have room for it
(it's a big SV) in my small LS6 panel - plus it's being put to much
better use in CH's Ventus!

Kirk
66

[John Smith]

> What caught my eye is that there appears to be four (4) varios in the

What caught my eye was that the LS4 is obviously looping a loop,
considering this glider is not rated for it...

As others said: There are many different things a vario can be set to
display: Actual, integrated, netto, speed to fly...

Besides, the picture is a fine example for the word "lag".

[BT]

and the yaw string is not straight, screwed up loop
BT

"John Smith" > wrote in message
. ..
>> What caught my eye is that there appears to be four (4) varios in the
>
> What caught my eye was that the LS4 is obviously looping a loop,
> considering this glider is not rated for it...
>
> As others said: There are many different things a vario can be set to
> display: Actual, integrated, netto, speed to fly...
>
> Besides, the picture is a fine example for the word "lag".

[DRN]

.... Why would anyone put four varios in a single glider ?

Only one possible reason.
Deep, deep, insecurity.

See ya, Dave "YO electric"

[stevehaley]

One good reason for using 2 electric varios is that you dont require a
Flask. I have seen gliders recently whose fancy electric varios/
FComputers costing a lot of money were compromised by splitting the TE
line too close to the instruments. The flask in the mechanical will
then adversely affect the electronic one.
see point 5 in Borgelts excelent article on vario leak/problem
finding. Given he makes these things I suspect that he knows what he
is talking about..
http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/Leaks.html
This made a huge diff to my last glider whose varios did some very
strange things and once I found the leak in the ASI caused by a loose
glass and moved the split in the TE behind the seat it was
transformed.

Personally I fly with 3 effectively
2 dials Driven off an LX 7000 one showing net the other normal. This
is an arangement I inherited and I actually find it quite intuitive
although I wouldnt miss losing one particuarly.
The 3rd is a B40 which has its own battery when required in the event
of a power failure. Far more useful IMHO than a mechanical in that it
is a better vario and it has audio. Try thermaling without an audio
once you have got used to it...

[VARR]

Offtopic... Forget the 4 varios and the sloppy loop in the LS-4.

Check out the Airbus A320-211, second from last.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/4yevhp
http://preview.tinyurl.com/6mmpyq

Left seat, Bacardi badge lanyard. Nice flair, no big deal.

Off his left hand, is that... a rum and coke? Dude, I know that the
industry is a mess right now, but can't it wait for the hotel bar...
j/k


On Jul 16, 11:57*am, ContestID67 > wrote:
> http://www.canadabizmart.com/bootstrapper/collection/spectacular-cock...
>
> This web site has some nice pictures of aircraft cockpits, including
> two gliders. *If you scroll down you will find an LS-4 flying
> inverted.
>
> What caught my eye is that there appears to be four (4) varios in the
> instrument panel. *My soaring friends have been scratching our heads
> trying to understand why you would ever need four varios in a single
> glider.
>
> Can anyone give some valid reasons why this would be useful?
>
> Thanks, John DeRosa