Busy airports and small GA

[Mxsmanic]

What is the largest/busiest airport you've flown into or out of in a small GA
aircraft as a private pilot, and was it IFR or VFR? What was the attitude of
the ATC in the area towards pilots like yourself moving about in an area
normally dominated by airliners and commercial flights?

[[email protected]]

On Jul 20, 12:28 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> What is the largest/busiest airport you've flown into or out of in a small GA
> aircraft as a private pilot, and was it IFR or VFR? What was the attitude of
> the ATC in the area towards pilots like yourself moving about in an area
> normally dominated by airliners and commercial flights?

You first

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> What is the largest/busiest airport you've flown into or out of in a
> small GA
> aircraft as a private pilot, and was it IFR or VFR? What was the
> attitude of
> the ATC in the area towards pilots like yourself moving about in an area
> normally dominated by airliners and commercial flights?

The worlds buisiest airport (for about one week a year) is Whittman Field -
but it is hardly dominated by airliners and commercial flights. I have
flown in and out of it during that week - ATC was quite helpful. Even got
us "special VFR" to get out one year.

I've also never had problems with ATC when flying into / out of large
airports with lots of commercial traffic.

Why?

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> You first

I've only flown on VATSIM, where controllers are a bit surprised by any type
of GA traffic (most VATSIM members prefer to fly airliners, for some reason).
They are often rusty with VFR procedures and considerations for small
aircraft. I doubt that this correlates with real life, because the traffic
mix and load are different on VATSIM.

I have heard that some large airports don't welcome small GA aircraft at all
(or, in Europe, they forbid it), whereas others are quite friendly towards the
visiting Cessna or Bonanza, even VFR.

[Mxsmanic]

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk @See My Sig.com> writes:

> Why?

Curiosity.

[[email protected]]

On Jul 20, 12:10 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk @See My Sig.com> writes:
>
> > Why?
>
> Curiosity.

I've never been to OSH, but I've flown into and out of VNY and CLT, as
well as near some busy airspace like DAL.
You just need to know the boundaries of ATC's control. If you let ATC
control you too much, at least I leave with the impression of having a
terrible flight, even though the actual flying might have been great.
ATC can only GUIDE you outside of their airspace.

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:

> > You first

> I've only flown on VATSIM, where controllers are a bit surprised by any type
> of GA traffic (most VATSIM members prefer to fly airliners, for some reason).
> They are often rusty with VFR procedures and considerations for small
> aircraft. I doubt that this correlates with real life, because the traffic
> mix and load are different on VATSIM.

Gee, simulation and the real world are different, what a surprise.

> I have heard that some large airports don't welcome small GA aircraft at all
> (or, in Europe, they forbid it), whereas others are quite friendly towards the
> visiting Cessna or Bonanza, even VFR.

Define "welcome" and "friendly".


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Viperdoc[_5_]]

Anthony, why bother since you won't ever fly into a Class B airspace or even
a grass field, and you'll only be able to simulate it on the computer?

[Maxwell[_2_]]

In article >, says...

> Mxsmanic > wrote:
> > writes:
>
> > > You first
>
> > I've only flown on VATSIM, where controllers are a bit surprised by any type
> > of GA traffic (most VATSIM members prefer to fly airliners, for some reason).
> > They are often rusty with VFR procedures and considerations for small
> > aircraft. I doubt that this correlates with real life, because the traffic
> > mix and load are different on VATSIM.
>
> Gee, simulation and the real world are different, what a surprise.
>
> > I have heard that some large airports don't welcome small GA aircraft at all
> > (or, in Europe, they forbid it), whereas others are quite friendly towards the
> > visiting Cessna or Bonanza, even VFR.
>
> Define "welcome" and "friendly".

They don't shoot you down

--

"Tis an ill wind that blows no minds"

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> What is the largest/busiest airport you've flown into or out of in a
> small GA aircraft as a private pilot, and was it IFR or VFR? What was
> the attitude of the ATC in the area towards pilots like yourself
> moving about in an area normally dominated by airliners and commercial
> flights?
>

Why? You'll never fly. Ever.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> You first
>
> I've only flown on VATSIM, where controllers are a bit surprised by
> any type of GA traffic (most VATSIM members prefer to fly airliners,
> for some reason). They are often rusty with VFR procedures and
> considerations for small aircraft. I doubt that this correlates with
> real life, because the traffic mix and load are different on VATSIM.
>
> I have heard that some large airports don't welcome small GA aircraft
> at all (or, in Europe, they forbid it


No they don;t, you fjukkktard.



Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

wrote in :

> Mxsmanic > wrote:
>> writes:
>
>> > You first
>
>> I've only flown on VATSIM, where controllers are a bit surprised by
>> any type of GA traffic (most VATSIM members prefer to fly airliners,
>> for some reason). They are often rusty with VFR procedures and
>> considerations for small aircraft. I doubt that this correlates with
>> real life, because the traffic mix and load are different on VATSIM.
>
> Gee, simulation and the real world are different, what a surprise.
>
>> I have heard that some large airports don't welcome small GA aircraft
>> at all (or, in Europe, they forbid it), whereas others are quite
>> friendly towards the visiting Cessna or Bonanza, even VFR.
>
> Define "welcome" and "friendly".
>
>




He'd have to have some sort of real life experience for that, wouldn't he?

Oh wait, he doesn't need that for anything. My bad.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk @See My Sig.com> writes:
>
>> Why?
>
> Curiosity.
>

you are an idiot


Bertie

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> You just need to know the boundaries of ATC's control. If you let ATC
> control you too much, at least I leave with the impression of having a
> terrible flight, even though the actual flying might have been great.
> ATC can only GUIDE you outside of their airspace.

Hmm ... what do you mean by "letting ATC control you too much"? Their limits
are defined by regulations, aren't they?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> You just need to know the boundaries of ATC's control. If you let ATC
>> control you too much, at least I leave with the impression of having
>> a terrible flight, even though the actual flying might have been
>> great. ATC can only GUIDE you outside of their airspace.
>
> Hmm ... what do you mean by "letting ATC control you too much"? Their
> limits are defined by regulations, aren't they?
>

You're an idiot.


Bertie

[Mike[_22_]]

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk @See My Sig.com> wrote in message
...
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
>> What is the largest/busiest airport you've flown into or out of in a
>> small GA
>> aircraft as a private pilot, and was it IFR or VFR? What was the
>> attitude of
>> the ATC in the area towards pilots like yourself moving about in an area
>> normally dominated by airliners and commercial flights?
>
> The worlds buisiest airport (for about one week a year) is Whittman
> Field - but it is hardly dominated by airliners and commercial flights. I
> have flown in and out of it during that week - ATC was quite helpful. Even
> got us "special VFR" to get out one year.
>
> I've also never had problems with ATC when flying into / out of large
> airports with lots of commercial traffic.

You'll typically have more problems with the airport itself rather than from
ATC. Some large airports charge hefty landing and ramp fees, so you may
wind up with a $150 or so charge you hadn't expected. This is how they
discourage the little guys from landing.

As far as ATC goes, most controllers will work you in just like any other
plane, although usually they prefer the little guys to fly into big airports
VFR on VMC days. That just gives them more options. They can bring you in
lower and put you on a short base to final turn rather than trying to stack
up bigger and faster aircraft behind you. So if you really want to ****
them off, fly a C150 upwind IFR into the class Bravo for the primary airport
during busy traffic times and see if you can hear the a$$holes pucker on
their side of the mic.

[Mxsmanic]

Mike writes:

> You'll typically have more problems with the airport itself rather than from
> ATC. Some large airports charge hefty landing and ramp fees, so you may
> wind up with a $150 or so charge you hadn't expected. This is how they
> discourage the little guys from landing.

How do they organize the payment? Are they waiting for you on the ramp, or do
you have to go to an office or something to pay up? Do you pay on arrival or
before you leave again? How do you find out the charges in advance? (I don't
recall seeing them in the directory or even on Airnav.)

> As far as ATC goes, most controllers will work you in just like any other
> plane, although usually they prefer the little guys to fly into big airports
> VFR on VMC days. That just gives them more options. They can bring you in
> lower and put you on a short base to final turn rather than trying to stack
> up bigger and faster aircraft behind you. So if you really want to ****
> them off, fly a C150 upwind IFR into the class Bravo for the primary airport
> during busy traffic times and see if you can hear the a$$holes pucker on
> their side of the mic.

Interesting. I would have guessed that ATC would prefer that everyone be IFR,
just to give them more precise control over the traffic.

[Benjamin Dover]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> You just need to know the boundaries of ATC's control. If you let ATC
>> control you too much, at least I leave with the impression of having
>> a terrible flight, even though the actual flying might have been
>> great. ATC can only GUIDE you outside of their airspace.
>
> Hmm ... what do you mean by "letting ATC control you too much"? Their
> limits are defined by regulations, aren't they?

You're too ****ing stupid to ever understand this concept.

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Mike writes:

> > You'll typically have more problems with the airport itself rather than from
> > ATC. Some large airports charge hefty landing and ramp fees, so you may
> > wind up with a $150 or so charge you hadn't expected. This is how they
> > discourage the little guys from landing.

> How do they organize the payment? Are they waiting for you on the ramp, or do
> you have to go to an office or something to pay up? Do you pay on arrival or
> before you leave again? How do you find out the charges in advance? (I don't
> recall seeing them in the directory or even on Airnav.)

It depends and real published data used by real pilots.

> > As far as ATC goes, most controllers will work you in just like any other
> > plane, although usually they prefer the little guys to fly into big airports
> > VFR on VMC days. That just gives them more options. They can bring you in
> > lower and put you on a short base to final turn rather than trying to stack
> > up bigger and faster aircraft behind you. So if you really want to ****
> > them off, fly a C150 upwind IFR into the class Bravo for the primary airport
> > during busy traffic times and see if you can hear the a$$holes pucker on
> > their side of the mic.

> Interesting. I would have guessed that ATC would prefer that everyone be IFR,
> just to give them more precise control over the traffic.

That's because you don't know **** from shinola about real flying and
just about everything you say on the subject is a half-ass guess.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Mike[_22_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Mike writes:
>
>> You'll typically have more problems with the airport itself rather than
>> from
>> ATC. Some large airports charge hefty landing and ramp fees, so you may
>> wind up with a $150 or so charge you hadn't expected. This is how they
>> discourage the little guys from landing.
>
> How do they organize the payment? Are they waiting for you on the ramp,
> or do
> you have to go to an office or something to pay up? Do you pay on arrival
> or
> before you leave again? How do you find out the charges in advance? (I
> don't
> recall seeing them in the directory or even on Airnav.)

You pay the bill at the FBO and you can find out from them what the charges
are.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Mike writes:
>
>> You'll typically have more problems with the airport itself rather
>> than from ATC. Some large airports charge hefty landing and ramp
>> fees, so you may wind up with a $150 or so charge you hadn't
>> expected. This is how they discourage the little guys from landing.
>
> How do they organize the payment? Are they waiting for you on the
> ramp, or do you have to go to an office or something to pay up? Do
> you pay on arrival or before you leave again? How do you find out the
> charges in advance? (I don't recall seeing them in the directory or
> even on Airnav.)
>


Why, you going to try and beg for a landing fee now?


Bertie

[Maxwell[_2_]]

In article >, Bertie the
Bunyip says...

> Mxsmanic > wrote in
> :
>
> > Mike writes:
> >
> >> You'll typically have more problems with the airport itself rather
> >> than from ATC. Some large airports charge hefty landing and ramp
> >> fees, so you may wind up with a $150 or so charge you hadn't
> >> expected. This is how they discourage the little guys from landing.
> >
> > How do they organize the payment? Are they waiting for you on the
> > ramp, or do you have to go to an office or something to pay up? Do
> > you pay on arrival or before you leave again? How do you find out the
> > charges in advance? (I don't recall seeing them in the directory or
> > even on Airnav.)
> >
>
>
> Why, you going to try and beg for a landing fee now?

Sitting by the side of the runway with an old hat and a cardboard sign?

Does he also have a kitten?

I always fall for teh baby katzes.

|\/| 3 0 \/\/ !!!1!


--

"Tis an ill wind that blows no minds"

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Maxwell <luv2^fly99@live.^com> wrote in news:MPG.22edba5e1bea833298b1b5
@notbxpats.edu:

> In article >, Bertie the
> Bunyip says...
>
>> Mxsmanic > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> > Mike writes:
>> >
>> >> You'll typically have more problems with the airport itself rather
>> >> than from ATC. Some large airports charge hefty landing and ramp
>> >> fees, so you may wind up with a $150 or so charge you hadn't
>> >> expected. This is how they discourage the little guys from
landing.
>> >
>> > How do they organize the payment? Are they waiting for you on the
>> > ramp, or do you have to go to an office or something to pay up? Do
>> > you pay on arrival or before you leave again? How do you find out
the
>> > charges in advance? (I don't recall seeing them in the directory
or
>> > even on Airnav.)
>> >
>>
>>
>> Why, you going to try and beg for a landing fee now?
>
> Sitting by the side of the runway with an old hat and a cardboard
sign?
>
> Does he also have a kitten?

I can't see one putting up wiht him!
>
> I always fall for teh baby katzes.
>


Me too. Altogheter,, awwww.

Bertie

[Steve Foley]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> writes:
>
> > You first
>
> I've only flown on VATSIM, where controllers are a bit surprised by any
type
> of GA traffic (most VATSIM members prefer to fly airliners, for some
reason).
> They are often rusty with VFR procedures and considerations for small
> aircraft. I doubt that this correlates with real life, because the
traffic
> mix and load are different on VATSIM.
>
> I have heard that some large airports don't welcome small GA aircraft at
all
> (or, in Europe, they forbid it), whereas others are quite friendly towards
the
> visiting Cessna or Bonanza, even VFR.

You didn't answer the question. Pretty sad, seeing as it was the question
that you posed.

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> What is the largest/busiest airport you've flown into or out of in a small GA
> aircraft as a private pilot, and was it IFR or VFR? What was the attitude of
> the ATC in the area towards pilots like yourself moving about in an area
> normally dominated by airliners and commercial flights?

DFW, nice as they could be, VFR.

[Darkwing]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> writes:
>
>> You just need to know the boundaries of ATC's control. If you let ATC
>> control you too much, at least I leave with the impression of having a
>> terrible flight, even though the actual flying might have been great.
>> ATC can only GUIDE you outside of their airspace.
>
> Hmm ... what do you mean by "letting ATC control you too much"? Their
> limits
> are defined by regulations, aren't they?

Douche bag.

[Darkwing]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Mike writes:
>
>> You'll typically have more problems with the airport itself rather than
>> from
>> ATC. Some large airports charge hefty landing and ramp fees, so you may
>> wind up with a $150 or so charge you hadn't expected. This is how they
>> discourage the little guys from landing.
>
> How do they organize the payment? Are they waiting for you on the ramp,
> or do
> you have to go to an office or something to pay up? Do you pay on arrival
> or
> before you leave again? How do you find out the charges in advance? (I
> don't
> recall seeing them in the directory or even on Airnav.)
>
>> As far as ATC goes, most controllers will work you in just like any other
>> plane, although usually they prefer the little guys to fly into big
>> airports
>> VFR on VMC days. That just gives them more options. They can bring you
>> in
>> lower and put you on a short base to final turn rather than trying to
>> stack
>> up bigger and faster aircraft behind you. So if you really want to ****
>> them off, fly a C150 upwind IFR into the class Bravo for the primary
>> airport
>> during busy traffic times and see if you can hear the a$$holes pucker on
>> their side of the mic.
>
> Interesting. I would have guessed that ATC would prefer that everyone be
> IFR,
> just to give them more precise control over the traffic.

Says the idiot.

[yeadeagisss]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Mike writes:
>
>>Some large airports charge hefty landing and ramp fees, so you may
>>wind up with a $150 or so charge you hadn't expected. This is how they
>>discourage the little guys from landing.
>
> How do they organize the payment?

If they find out it's you, they send large, strong, brutish men to beat
the crap out of you until you plead for mercy and offer them any amount
of money to make them stop. Then they laugh derisively and take what
they want from you.

Guess it's a good thing you don't actually fly, eh?

> I would have guessed that ATC would prefer that everyone be IFR

What you would have guessed is irrelevant.

[Steve Foley]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Mike writes:
>
> > You'll typically have more problems with the airport itself rather than
from
> > ATC. Some large airports charge hefty landing and ramp fees, so you may
> > wind up with a $150 or so charge you hadn't expected. This is how they
> > discourage the little guys from landing.
>
> How do they organize the payment?

They don't. The pilot organizes the payment. They organize the collection.

[Benjamin Dover]

yeadeagisss > wrote in
:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
>> Mike writes:
>>
>>>Some large airports charge hefty landing and ramp fees, so you may
>>>wind up with a $150 or so charge you hadn't expected. This is how they
>>>discourage the little guys from landing.
>>
>> How do they organize the payment?
>
> If they find out it's you, they send large, strong, brutish men to beat
> the crap out of you until you plead for mercy and offer them any amount
> of money to make them stop. Then they laugh derisively and take what
> they want from you.
>
> Guess it's a good thing you don't actually fly, eh?
>
>> I would have guessed that ATC would prefer that everyone be IFR
>
> What you would have guessed is irrelevant.
>

At LAS, the goodfellas will size you up and then offer you a deal you dare
not refuse.

[Dana M. Hague]

I flew a C-150 once into Lambert (St. Louis International). VFR, the
ink on my Private barely dry, no trouble with ATC. Ground control
asked me what was my destination on the airport and I said, "As close
as possible to TWA departure" (I was dropping off a friend). They
directed me, my friend got out, and I flew back out again. No hassle,
and no fees. 'Course that was 30 years ago...

-Dana

--
--
If replying by email, please make the obvious changes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler.-- Albert Einstein

[Mxsmanic]

Steve Foley writes:

> You didn't answer the question. Pretty sad, seeing as it was the question
> that you posed.

I don't have to ask questions to which I have answers.

[Buster Hymen]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Steve Foley writes:
>
>> You didn't answer the question. Pretty sad, seeing as it was the
>> question that you posed.
>
> I don't have to ask questions to which I have answers.
>

You aren't intelligent enough to know what answers you have.

[[email protected]]

On Jul 21, 11:51 pm, Buster Hymen > wrote:
> Mxsmanic > wrote :
>
> > Steve Foley writes:
>
> >> You didn't answer the question. Pretty sad, seeing as it was the
> >> question that you posed.
>
> > I don't have to ask questions to which I have answers.
>
> You aren't intelligent enough to know what answers you have.

Anthony: "I google, therefore I am"

[Steve Foley]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Foley writes:
>
>> You didn't answer the question. Pretty sad, seeing as it was the question
>> that you posed.
>
> I don't have to ask questions to which I have answers.

So why answer them incorrectly?

[buttman]

On Jul 20, 5:01*pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Mike writes:
> > You'll typically have more problems with the airport itself rather than from
> > ATC. *Some large airports charge hefty landing and ramp fees, so you may
> > wind up with a $150 or so charge you hadn't expected. *This is how they
> > discourage the little guys from landing.
>
> How do they organize the payment? *Are they waiting for you on the ramp, or do
> you have to go to an office or something to pay up? *Do you pay on arrival or
> before you leave again? *How do you find out the charges in advance? *(I don't
> recall seeing them in the directory or even on Airnav.)

A lot of times they only charge you if you use the FBO, which is
everytime unless you're just doing a touch and go. Sometimes they
waive the fee if you buy a ton of gas (like literally a ton),
sometimes they only charge a fee if the aircraft is certified to weigh
anymore than a certain amount. It all really depends. In my
experience, the fee is very informal, and if you REALLY wanted to get
out of paying, you could probably just take off and I don't think much
would happen. Sometimes my company flies to large airports which have
landing fees, but we only ever go to the cargo apron and drop off, so
we never visit a FBO, and therefore never pay anything. I know for a
fact we flew into Toronto a few months ago, dropped off at some cargo
hangar, filed our flight plan back to KYIP, then took right back off.
Later I looked it up, and there is indeed a landing fee there that we
most certainly did not pay. All though they may have called one of our
dispatchers to collect the fee...

[JB]

On Jul 22, 9:12*am, buttman > wrote:
I know for a
> fact we flew into Toronto a few months ago, dropped off at some cargo
> hangar, filed our flight plan back to KYIP, then took right back off.
> Later I looked it up, and there is indeed a landing fee there that we
> most certainly did not pay. All though they may have called one of our
> dispatchers to collect the fee...

Don't declare victory just yet. I fly to Toronto a few times/year to
visit family. They will send you an ATC user fee bill in the
mail....based on aircraft weight. They will track you by your tail
number and registration info.

--Jeff

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

buttman > wrote in
:

> On Jul 20, 5:01*pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>> Mike writes:
>> > You'll typically have more problems with the airport itself rather
>> > than
> from
>> > ATC. *Some large airports charge hefty landing and ramp fees, so
>> > you
> may
>> > wind up with a $150 or so charge you hadn't expected. *This is how
>> > th
> ey
>> > discourage the little guys from landing.
>>
>> How do they organize the payment? *Are they waiting for you on the
>> ramp
> , or do
>> you have to go to an office or something to pay up? *Do you pay on
>> arri
> val or
>> before you leave again? *How do you find out the charges in advance?
> *(I don't
>> recall seeing them in the directory or even on Airnav.)
>
> A lot of times they only charge you if you use the FBO, which is
> everytime unless you're just doing a touch and go. Sometimes they
> waive the fee if you buy a ton of gas (like literally a ton),
> sometimes they only charge a fee if the aircraft is certified to weigh
> anymore than a certain amount. It all really depends. In my
> experience, the fee is very informal, and if you REALLY wanted to get
> out of paying, you could probably just take off and I don't think much
> would happen. Sometimes my company flies to large airports which have
> landing fees, but we only ever go to the cargo apron and drop off, so
> we never visit a FBO, and therefore never pay anything. I know for a
> fact we flew into Toronto a few months ago, dropped off at some cargo
> hangar, filed our flight plan back to KYIP, then took right back off.
> Later I looked it up, and there is indeed a landing fee there that we
> most certainly did not pay. All though they may have called one of our
> dispatchers to collect the fee...

Snort!

Bertie

[xyzzy]

On Jul 20, 12:28*pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> What is the largest/busiest airport you've flown into or out of in a small GA
> aircraft as a private pilot, and was it IFR or VFR? *What was the attitude of
> the ATC in the area towards pilots like yourself moving about in an area
> normally dominated by airliners and commercial flights?

Dulles, VFR in a Warrior.

They vectored me all over the place to keep me out of the way of the
airliners and IFR traffic (it was CAVU day), I was definitely their
lowest priority and for about 1/2 hour I got a tour of the ADIZ while
they kept pushing me out of the way. Then let me land on 19L (with a
13 mile final :) during a break in airliner traffic and asked if I
could make the first high-speed turnoff (ummm, yes).

Their attitude was fine, but they clearly were rusty on dealing with
VFR traffic

Heck they were rusty on dealing with spam can traffic, period. When
we departed, clearance delivery told us to maintain 4000 or lower.
When we contacted departure they were annoyed at that clearance and
told us to stay at 2000 or below. But then we were cleared to 4000
before we'd even climbed past 1500. Clearly they were used to dealing
with much faster climbing planes than Warriors near gross on a hot
day.

It was a flying club trip and four Warriors went. I was VFR, the
others were IFR. I took off for Dulles first, and was the last one to
land.

[Jon Woellhaf[_2_]]

Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without cheating
and looking it up?

"xyzzy" > wrote in message ...

[Jim Logajan]

"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
> Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without
> cheating and looking it up?

Nothing happens.

I'm in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.

Let's just say that I do recall eventually seeing the Fortran code for it
(a port to MNF for a CDC 6400), a few years after I'd played it on a 110
baud Teletype(R). That was about thirty years ago.

[gatt[_5_]]

Jim Logajan wrote:

> Nothing happens.
>
> I'm in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.

LOL! If you ever get out, check out Flight Simulator 2.0. Depending
on your display, you can get 4-color graphics!

-c

[Jon]

On Jul 22, 3:39*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
> > Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without
> > cheating and looking it up?

Does that question interest you?

> Nothing happens.

Does it please you to know nothing happens?

> I'm in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.

Please go on.

> Let's just say that I do recall eventually seeing the Fortran code for it

Why do you recall eventually seeing the Fortran code for it?

> (a port to MNF for a CDC 6400), a few years after I'd played it on a 110
> baud Teletype(R). That was about thirty years ago.

Can you elaborate on that?

--------------

Who remembers that, w/o looking it up? ;)

[Mxsmanic]

Jon Woellhaf writes:

> Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without cheating
> and looking it up?

I do.

[Mxsmanic]

buttman writes:

> A lot of times they only charge you if you use the FBO, which is
> everytime unless you're just doing a touch and go. Sometimes they
> waive the fee if you buy a ton of gas (like literally a ton),
> sometimes they only charge a fee if the aircraft is certified to weigh
> anymore than a certain amount. It all really depends. In my
> experience, the fee is very informal, and if you REALLY wanted to get
> out of paying, you could probably just take off and I don't think much
> would happen. Sometimes my company flies to large airports which have
> landing fees, but we only ever go to the cargo apron and drop off, so
> we never visit a FBO, and therefore never pay anything. I know for a
> fact we flew into Toronto a few months ago, dropped off at some cargo
> hangar, filed our flight plan back to KYIP, then took right back off.
> Later I looked it up, and there is indeed a landing fee there that we
> most certainly did not pay. All though they may have called one of our
> dispatchers to collect the fee...

I thought a FBO was a private enterprise that operated on the premises of the
airport, not part of the airport mangement itself. What exactly is the
relationship of the FBO to the airport? Can't there be multiple FBOs at an
airport?

[Jim Logajan]

Jon > wrote:
> On Jul 22, 3:39*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
>> "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
>> > Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without
>> > cheating and looking it up?
>
> Does that question interest you?
>
>> Nothing happens.
>
> Does it please you to know nothing happens?
>
>> I'm in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
>
> Please go on.
>
>> Let's just say that I do recall eventually seeing the Fortran code
>> for it
>
> Why do you recall eventually seeing the Fortran code for it?
>
>> (a port to MNF for a CDC 6400), a few years after I'd played it on a
>> 110 baud Teletype(R). That was about thirty years ago.
>
> Can you elaborate on that?
>
> --------------
>
> Who remembers that, w/o looking it up? ;)

Again, I do - and I didn't need a therapist to help me remember.

[Buster Hymen]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> buttman writes:
>
>> A lot of times they only charge you if you use the FBO, which is
>> everytime unless you're just doing a touch and go. Sometimes they
>> waive the fee if you buy a ton of gas (like literally a ton),
>> sometimes they only charge a fee if the aircraft is certified to
>> weigh anymore than a certain amount. It all really depends. In my
>> experience, the fee is very informal, and if you REALLY wanted to get
>> out of paying, you could probably just take off and I don't think
>> much would happen. Sometimes my company flies to large airports which
>> have landing fees, but we only ever go to the cargo apron and drop
>> off, so we never visit a FBO, and therefore never pay anything. I
>> know for a fact we flew into Toronto a few months ago, dropped off at
>> some cargo hangar, filed our flight plan back to KYIP, then took
>> right back off. Later I looked it up, and there is indeed a landing
>> fee there that we most certainly did not pay. All though they may
>> have called one of our dispatchers to collect the fee...
>
> I thought a FBO was a private enterprise that operated on the premises
> of the airport, not part of the airport mangement itself. What
> exactly is the relationship of the FBO to the airport? Can't there be
> multiple FBOs at an airport?

You don't have enough brains to think, moron.

[Buster Hymen]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Jon Woellhaf writes:
>
>> Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without
>> cheating and looking it up?
>
> I do.
>

You looked it up. You are not competent to learn anything and have cheated
all your life.

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> buttman writes:

> > A lot of times they only charge you if you use the FBO, which is
> > everytime unless you're just doing a touch and go. Sometimes they
> > waive the fee if you buy a ton of gas (like literally a ton),
> > sometimes they only charge a fee if the aircraft is certified to weigh
> > anymore than a certain amount. It all really depends. In my
> > experience, the fee is very informal, and if you REALLY wanted to get
> > out of paying, you could probably just take off and I don't think much
> > would happen. Sometimes my company flies to large airports which have
> > landing fees, but we only ever go to the cargo apron and drop off, so
> > we never visit a FBO, and therefore never pay anything. I know for a
> > fact we flew into Toronto a few months ago, dropped off at some cargo
> > hangar, filed our flight plan back to KYIP, then took right back off.
> > Later I looked it up, and there is indeed a landing fee there that we
> > most certainly did not pay. All though they may have called one of our
> > dispatchers to collect the fee...

> I thought a FBO was a private enterprise that operated on the premises of the
> airport, not part of the airport mangement itself. What exactly is the
> relationship of the FBO to the airport? Can't there be multiple FBOs at an
> airport?

There you go trying to think about real world things again with no
frame of reference.

FBO stands for "Fixed Base Operator" and says nothing about who owns,
runs, or otherwise has any part in its operation, nor does it say
anything about how many there may or may not be at any particular
location anymore than the phrase "gas pump" says anything other than
a machine that dispenses gas.

The only thing that can be definatively said about the relationship
of a FBO to an airport is that it is on the airport.

If you were a real pilot you would have learned about FBO's in the
first couple of hours of instruction along with how to operate the
gas pump and how to refuel the airplane.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Mike[_22_]]

"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote in message
...
> Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without
> cheating and looking it up?

I believe the correct answer is....

Who gives a $hit?

I could be wrong though.

[Ricky]

On Jul 21, 8:40*am, Gig 601Xl Builder >
wrote:
> Mxsmanic wrote:
> > What is the largest/busiest airport you've flown into or out of in a small GA
> > aircraft as a private pilot, and was it IFR or VFR? *What was the attitude of
> > the ATC in the area towards pilots like yourself moving about in an area
> > normally dominated by airliners and commercial flights?
>
> DFW, nice as they could be, VFR.

When I was at Le Tourneau University we had to do a cross country into
DFW. I don't remember if it was in an Aztec or a Warrior but they
vectored me all over the metroplex before letting me in. It took
almost an hour to get on the ground after crossing over Dallas in
order to go pay the $50-$60 (don't remember exactly how much, long
time ago) landing fee. ATC & ground seemed a little more abrupt with
me but that could've just been my own nerves going into DFW & thinking
they were hating me for it.
The most challenging part of this flight was getting to the GA area
after landing. Even with detailed progressive taxiing and a detailed
ground map on my lap it took a lot of concentration and time to get to
parking, took nearly 30 min I believe with lots of holding short.

Ricky

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:

> Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without cheating
> and looking it up?

yo

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:28:25 -0600, "Jon Woellhaf" >
wrote:

> Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without cheating
> and looking it up?

And a hollow voice says, "Cretin...."

Ron Wanttaja

[Jon]

On Jul 22, 4:40*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> Jon > wrote:
> > On Jul 22, 3:39*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> >> "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
> >> > Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without
> >> > cheating and looking it up?
>
> > Does that question interest you?
>
> >> Nothing happens.
>
> > Does it please you to know nothing happens?
>
> >> I'm in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
>
> > Please go on.
>
> >> Let's just say that I do recall eventually seeing the Fortran code
> >> for it
>
> > Why do you recall eventually seeing the Fortran code for it?
>
> >> (a port to MNF for a CDC 6400), a few years after I'd played it on a
> >> 110 baud Teletype(R). That was about thirty years ago.
>
> > Can you elaborate on that?
>
> > --------------
>
> > Who remembers that, w/o looking it up? *;)
>
> Again, I do - and I didn't need a therapist to help me remember.

Then it's a good thing I'm not a therapist ;)

[buttman]

On Jul 22, 2:28*pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> I thought a FBO was a private enterprise that operated on the premises of the
> airport, not part of the airport mangement itself. *What exactly is the
> relationship of the FBO to the airport? *Can't there be multiple FBOs at an
> airport?

They can act as a middleman that just collects the fee then hands it
off to the airport management.

In the case of a large airport with multiple FBOs, I believe the way
it works is the FBOs are required to pay the airport a fee for each
airplane they service. "Service" here means fuel, oxygen fill-up,
parking space, hangar space, etc. If you don't use the services of an
FBO, then you don't owe anybody anything.

In my instructing days I remember a fellow instructor took a Seminole
to LAX just for the hell of it. He made sure to not stop anywhere
because they'd charge him a landing fee which he would have had to pay
out of his pocket. Instead he just taxied back to the departure and
and took off to Ontario or something where he could get fuel without a
landing fee.

[yod-yog+ais]

On 7/22/2008 1:26 PM Mxsmanic ignored two million years of human
evolution to write:

> I do.

So?

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Jon Woellhaf writes:
>
>> Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without
>> cheating and looking it up?
>
> I do.
>

No you don't.


Bertie

[Rich Ahrens[_2_]]

on 7/22/2008 11:55 AM xyzzy said the following:
> On Jul 20, 12:28 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>> What is the largest/busiest airport you've flown into or out of in a small GA
>> aircraft as a private pilot, and was it IFR or VFR? What was the attitude of
>> the ATC in the area towards pilots like yourself moving about in an area
>> normally dominated by airliners and commercial flights?
>
> Dulles, VFR in a Warrior.
>
> They vectored me all over the place to keep me out of the way of the
> airliners and IFR traffic (it was CAVU day), I was definitely their
> lowest priority and for about 1/2 hour I got a tour of the ADIZ while
> they kept pushing me out of the way. Then let me land on 19L (with a
> 13 mile final :) during a break in airliner traffic and asked if I
> could make the first high-speed turnoff (ummm, yes).
>
> Their attitude was fine, but they clearly were rusty on dealing with
> VFR traffic

Chicago Midway VFR in a 172, coming in from the northwest. Other than
approach keeping me low for last 15 miles or so, no issues at all. They
clearly were used to spamcans in the wake of the shutdown of Meigs.
Departure was really interesting as I was the only prop plane in sight,
taxiing with Southwest 737s and bizjets.

Also did VFR into Calgary in a 182. They put me on a looong straight-in
to 34, but had me do a wide 360 to one side to let an Airbus in past me.
Best part was asking me if I could accept LAHSO in the 8600 feet
available before 10-28 crossed.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Jon Woellhaf writes:
>
>> Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without
>> cheating and looking it up?
>
> I do.

No you don't.

Bertie

[Peter Clark]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:12:32 -0700 (PDT), buttman >
wrote:

>we never visit a FBO, and therefore never pay anything. I know for a
>fact we flew into Toronto a few months ago, dropped off at some cargo
>hangar, filed our flight plan back to KYIP, then took right back off.
>Later I looked it up, and there is indeed a landing fee there that we
>most certainly did not pay. All though they may have called one of our
>dispatchers to collect the fee...

Depends on the airport. Places that don't collect the fee via the FBO
usually just mail a bill to the registered owner.

[Lee K. Gleason[_2_]]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
>
> > Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without
cheating
> > and looking it up?
>
> yo
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> (goodness, please trim replies!!!)
>

You mean the game origin, or the math origin that inspired the game
origin?
--
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants

[Robert Barker]

"Lee K. Gleason" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Bob Noel" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>> "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
>>
>> > Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without
> cheating
>> > and looking it up?
>>
>> yo
>>
>> --
>> Bob Noel
>> (goodness, please trim replies!!!)
>>
>
> You mean the game origin, or the math origin that inspired the game
> origin?
> --
> Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
> Control-G Consultants
>
>
>

I can't believe I'm back in the forest!!!

[David Kazdan]

I wondered if anyone would mention that--it didn't start with the game.

David, AD8Y
who also played that at 110 baud many moons ago

Lee K. Gleason wrote:
> "Bob Noel" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>> "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
>>
>>> Just curious ... How many of you know the origin of xyzzy, without
> cheating
>>> and looking it up?
>> yo
>>
>> --
>> Bob Noel
>> (goodness, please trim replies!!!)
>>
>
> You mean the game origin, or the math origin that inspired the game
> origin?
> --
> Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
> Control-G Consultants
>
>
>

[Jon Woellhaf]

"David Kazdan" > wrote in message
...
>I wondered if anyone would mention that--it didn't start with the game.
>
> David, AD8Y
> who also played that at 110 baud many moons ago

I didn't know about the math origin until I looked it up. Must have been
asleep when that was mentioned in class.

I played at a blazing 1200 baud on a CRT hooked to a PDP-8.

How could have anyone guessed "xyzzy" without looking at the source code,
like we did? (Cheaters!)