Drilling out old rivets questions?

[Fonz]

G'Day all.
I have a Cessna 310L cockpit which I will be converting to a simulator.
I wish for it to stay as authentic as possible, including method of
construction and cosmetics.
As such I have to repair/replace and modify some aluminium panels.
My question:
What is the best way to remove solid rivets?
(I have been told to drill lightly into the little dimple of either the
universal or flush rivet, and then use the shank end of the same size bit to
bend/peel top off. After that just pop it out.)

What size drills should I use?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I should be using for installing.
Should I use the same fro removal?
3/32 #40 drill Silver cleco
1/8 #30 drill Copper cleco
5/32 #21 drill Black cleco
3/16 #10 drill Brass cleco

Hopefully this will be good practise for me, as one day I'd love to build an
RV.

Many thanks in advance for any advice provided.
Rob.
Melbourne Australia.

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:35:56 +1000, "Fonz" > wrote:

>G'Day all.
>I have a Cessna 310L cockpit which I will be converting to a simulator.
>I wish for it to stay as authentic as possible, including method of
>construction and cosmetics.
>As such I have to repair/replace and modify some aluminium panels.
>My question:
>What is the best way to remove solid rivets?

you need to drill out the rivet without enlarging or "figure 8'ing"
the underlying hole. that is the basic principle.
whatever way works for you without damaging the underlying sheet is
ok.

ordinary drills are often not stiff enough to stay in position.
double ended jobber drills that have shorter flutes and are thus
stiffer can be useful.

you should also search out a drill called variously a centre drill or
a slocumbe drill. machinists shops carry them. they have a stepped end
and are comparitively very stiff. a number 2 or number 3 would be
useful.

my old LAME swore by a blunt quarter inch wood chisel, it had just the
right end sharpness and could be used to pling off the head sideways
with a tap from a hammer. the rivet body was then tapped out of the
hole with a pin punch.

if you can work precisely and develop a gentle touch you should have
no problems.

Stealth pilot

[Fonz]

Thanks stealth.
I'll give both a try.
Rob.


"Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:35:56 +1000, "Fonz" > wrote:
>
>>G'Day all.
>>I have a Cessna 310L cockpit which I will be converting to a simulator.
>>I wish for it to stay as authentic as possible, including method of
>>construction and cosmetics.
>>As such I have to repair/replace and modify some aluminium panels.
>>My question:
>>What is the best way to remove solid rivets?
>
> you need to drill out the rivet without enlarging or "figure 8'ing"
> the underlying hole. that is the basic principle.
> whatever way works for you without damaging the underlying sheet is
> ok.
>
> ordinary drills are often not stiff enough to stay in position.
> double ended jobber drills that have shorter flutes and are thus
> stiffer can be useful.
>
> you should also search out a drill called variously a centre drill or
> a slocumbe drill. machinists shops carry them. they have a stepped end
> and are comparitively very stiff. a number 2 or number 3 would be
> useful.
>
> my old LAME swore by a blunt quarter inch wood chisel, it had just the
> right end sharpness and could be used to pling off the head sideways
> with a tap from a hammer. the rivet body was then tapped out of the
> hole with a pin punch.
>
> if you can work precisely and develop a gentle touch you should have
> no problems.
>
> Stealth pilot
>

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Fonz" > wrote in message
...
> G'Day all.
> I have a Cessna 310L cockpit which I will be converting to a simulator.
> I wish for it to stay as authentic as possible, including method of
> construction and cosmetics.
> As such I have to repair/replace and modify some aluminium panels.
> My question:
> What is the best way to remove solid rivets?
<...>


http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1431564069/bclid1432790122/bctid1657896937

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Charles]

Using a chisel and then punching out the rivet shank with a pin punch works
OK with button head rivets and a sturdy structure. I'd keep away from the
chisel until you had practiced for a while.
The drill bit sizes mentioned work well but sometimes the rivet shank is
very tightly imbedded in the underlying sheet and trying to punch it out
with a pin punch doesn't work well as the thin underlying sheet distorts
easily. Sometimes drilling all the way through is the only practical way but
you have to be VERY carefull doing this to keep from distorting the original
hole. Use new, sharp bits, and go slowly.
"Fonz" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks stealth.
> I'll give both a try.
> Rob.
>
>
> "Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:35:56 +1000, "Fonz" > wrote:
>>
>>>G'Day all.
>>>I have a Cessna 310L cockpit which I will be converting to a simulator.
>>>I wish for it to stay as authentic as possible, including method of
>>>construction and cosmetics.
>>>As such I have to repair/replace and modify some aluminium panels.
>>>My question:
>>>What is the best way to remove solid rivets?
>>
>> you need to drill out the rivet without enlarging or "figure 8'ing"
>> the underlying hole. that is the basic principle.
>> whatever way works for you without damaging the underlying sheet is
>> ok.
>>
>> ordinary drills are often not stiff enough to stay in position.
>> double ended jobber drills that have shorter flutes and are thus
>> stiffer can be useful.
>>
>> you should also search out a drill called variously a centre drill or
>> a slocumbe drill. machinists shops carry them. they have a stepped end
>> and are comparitively very stiff. a number 2 or number 3 would be
>> useful.
>>
>> my old LAME swore by a blunt quarter inch wood chisel, it had just the
>> right end sharpness and could be used to pling off the head sideways
>> with a tap from a hammer. the rivet body was then tapped out of the
>> hole with a pin punch.
>>
>> if you can work precisely and develop a gentle touch you should have
>> no problems.
>>
>> Stealth pilot
>>
>
>

[stol]

On Aug 7, 4:35*am, "Fonz" > wrote:
> G'Day all.
> I have a Cessna 310L cockpit which I will be converting to a simulator.
> I wish for it to stay as authentic as possible, including method of
> construction and cosmetics.
> As such I have to repair/replace and modify some aluminium panels.
> My question:
> What is the best way to remove solid rivets?
> (I have been told to drill lightly into the little dimple of either the
> universal or flush rivet, and then use the shank end of the same size bit to
> bend/peel top off. After that just pop it out.)
>
> What size drills should I use?
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I should be using for installing.
> Should I use the same fro removal?
> 3/32 * *#40 drill * *Silver cleco
> 1/8 * * *#30 drill * *Copper cleco
> 5/32 * *#21 drill * *Black cleco
> 3/16 * *#10 drill * *Brass cleco
>
> Hopefully this will be good practise for me, as one day I'd love to build an
> RV.
>
> Many thanks in advance for any advice provided.
> Rob.
> Melbourne Australia.

Heck, it is a simuator.. It will be earthbound forever. Do whatever it
takes to remove and replace them that doesn't take alot of time....
Drilling them out with the same size drill bit is the fastest and who
cares if you oblong the hole a little..
Just my opinion ya know...

Ben.
www.haaspowerair.com

[Fonz]

Thanks for the link. That is pretty much the way I thought it might go.
It's a good website. clarified a few things.
Regards,
Rob
"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk @See My Sig.com> wrote in message
...
> "Fonz" > wrote in message
> ...
>> G'Day all.
>> I have a Cessna 310L cockpit which I will be converting to a simulator.
>> I wish for it to stay as authentic as possible, including method of
>> construction and cosmetics.
>> As such I have to repair/replace and modify some aluminium panels.
>> My question:
>> What is the best way to remove solid rivets?
> <...>
>
>
> http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1431564069/bclid1432790122/bctid1657896937
>
> --
> Geoff
> The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Fonz]

Yep I know it will remain earthbound, but I don't.
I want to use this as practise for something that will sprout wings, so I'd
rather stuff up the sim, and have less problems with the real thing. I
don't mind opinions or people throwing in their 2cents, as eventually it
will total a dollar, and that dollar might be saved in the future with less
stuff-ups.
Regards,
Rob
"stol" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 7, 4:35 am, "Fonz" > wrote:
> G'Day all.
> I have a Cessna 310L cockpit which I will be converting to a simulator.
> I wish for it to stay as authentic as possible, including method of
> construction and cosmetics.
> As such I have to repair/replace and modify some aluminium panels.
> My question:
> What is the best way to remove solid rivets?
> (I have been told to drill lightly into the little dimple of either the
> universal or flush rivet, and then use the shank end of the same size bit
> to
> bend/peel top off. After that just pop it out.)
>
> What size drills should I use?
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I should be using for
> installing.
> Should I use the same fro removal?
> 3/32 #40 drill Silver cleco
> 1/8 #30 drill Copper cleco
> 5/32 #21 drill Black cleco
> 3/16 #10 drill Brass cleco
>
> Hopefully this will be good practise for me, as one day I'd love to build
> an
> RV.
>
> Many thanks in advance for any advice provided.
> Rob.
> Melbourne Australia.

Heck, it is a simuator.. It will be earthbound forever. Do whatever it
takes to remove and replace them that doesn't take alot of time....
Drilling them out with the same size drill bit is the fastest and who
cares if you oblong the hole a little..
Just my opinion ya know...

Ben.
www.haaspowerair.com

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Fonz wrote:
> Yep I know it will remain earthbound, but I don't.
> I want to use this as practise for something that will sprout wings, so I'd
> rather stuff up the sim, and have less problems with the real thing. I
> don't mind opinions or people throwing in their 2cents, as eventually it
> will total a dollar, and that dollar might be saved in the future with less
> stuff-ups.
> Regards,
> Rob

I understand you are want to go for realism but on something like a hole
that has been made oblong by drilling it isn't worth the effort. Once
you put the new rivet in you won't be able to tell and there isn't an
airworthiness issue.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Fonz" > wrote in message
...
> Yep I know it will remain earthbound, but I don't.
> I want to use this as practise for something that will sprout wings, so
> I'd rather stuff up the sim, and have less problems with the real thing.
> I don't mind opinions or people throwing in their 2cents, as eventually
> it will total a dollar, and that dollar might be saved in the future with
> less stuff-ups.

Sounds like a plan to me...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[John[_9_]]

On Aug 7, 6:35*am, "Fonz" > wrote:
> G'Day all.
> I have a Cessna 310L cockpit which I will be converting to a simulator.
> I wish for it to stay as authentic as possible, including method of
> construction and cosmetics.
> As such I have to repair/replace and modify some aluminium panels.
> My question:
> What is the best way to remove solid rivets?
> (I have been told to drill lightly into the little dimple of either the
> universal or flush rivet, and then use the shank end of the same size bit to
> bend/peel top off. After that just pop it out.)
>
> What size drills should I use?
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I should be using for installing.
> Should I use the same fro removal?
> 3/32 * *#40 drill * *Silver cleco
> 1/8 * * *#30 drill * *Copper cleco
> 5/32 * *#21 drill * *Black cleco
> 3/16 * *#10 drill * *Brass cleco
>
> Hopefully this will be good practise for me, as one day I'd love to build an
> RV.
>
> Many thanks in advance for any advice provided.
> Rob.
> Melbourne Australia.

There has been a lot of good advice so far. I would add one element
that has worked well for me. When I want to be careful of not damaging
the surrounding material I will drill right through the rivet with a
smaller drill before drilling the head with the appropriate size. I
would use a #50 drill for a 3/32 rivet and for the other sizes use the
drill for the next smaller size rivet. If it is a larger rivet and I
really need to be careful I might drill it twice before drilling the
head off. This way I can check if my hole was centered properly, when
I due drill the head off it usually goes easier and I think the shank
is weaker and responds better to being driven out.

Another technique that is useful if you have good access to both ends
of the rivet is to pull the rivet tail out with a good pair of flush
cut dikes. You still have to be careful if the rivet was bucked
between the sheets but most often I find that just closing the dikes
around the tail causes the body of the rivet to pop out easily.

When you have the right size drill properly centered a universal head
or other protruding head rivet will spin right off. That's when you
know your technique is right.


John Dupre'

[Fonz]

Thanks John.
Ihad a mate suggest the drill through thing and it worked great, as long as
it was centred. Did one big oops and will have to use a rivet 2 sizes
larger. As I said, I'd rather make the mistakes now than on a homebuilt.
Rob.

"John" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 7, 6:35 am, "Fonz" > wrote:
> G'Day all.
> I have a Cessna 310L cockpit which I will be converting to a simulator.
> I wish for it to stay as authentic as possible, including method of
> construction and cosmetics.
> As such I have to repair/replace and modify some aluminium panels.
> My question:
> What is the best way to remove solid rivets?
> (I have been told to drill lightly into the little dimple of either the
> universal or flush rivet, and then use the shank end of the same size bit
> to
> bend/peel top off. After that just pop it out.)
>
> What size drills should I use?
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I should be using for
> installing.
> Should I use the same fro removal?
> 3/32 #40 drill Silver cleco
> 1/8 #30 drill Copper cleco
> 5/32 #21 drill Black cleco
> 3/16 #10 drill Brass cleco
>
> Hopefully this will be good practise for me, as one day I'd love to build
> an
> RV.
>
> Many thanks in advance for any advice provided.
> Rob.
> Melbourne Australia.

There has been a lot of good advice so far. I would add one element
that has worked well for me. When I want to be careful of not damaging
the surrounding material I will drill right through the rivet with a
smaller drill before drilling the head with the appropriate size. I
would use a #50 drill for a 3/32 rivet and for the other sizes use the
drill for the next smaller size rivet. If it is a larger rivet and I
really need to be careful I might drill it twice before drilling the
head off. This way I can check if my hole was centered properly, when
I due drill the head off it usually goes easier and I think the shank
is weaker and responds better to being driven out.

Another technique that is useful if you have good access to both ends
of the rivet is to pull the rivet tail out with a good pair of flush
cut dikes. You still have to be careful if the rivet was bucked
between the sheets but most often I find that just closing the dikes
around the tail causes the body of the rivet to pop out easily.

When you have the right size drill properly centered a universal head
or other protruding head rivet will spin right off. That's when you
know your technique is right.


John Dupre'