Farewell, Buckeye (T-2C)!

[[email protected]]

See:

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004362.html

[Ogden Johnson III]

wrote:

>See:
>
>http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004362.html

Not so fast on the Buckeye, bucko.

It still has to go through the hoary traditional retirement from
*all* NAS/MCASs. Wherein NAS Podunk announces in a press release
that "The last T-2C in USN service was retired in a ceremony
yesterday." To be followed a month later in this or that
publication with an irate letter from the PIO of NAS Peoria,
saying "Podunk may have retired theirs, but we have four T-2Cs on
the flight line here right now, still serving as proficiency
trainers for ......"

Hell, this sort of thing went on endlessly with the C-117D (nee
C-47, R4D, DC-3) Gooney Bird. Every other month or three one
station or another would make the ill-considered press release,
to be followed a month later by a bunch of other stations
replying "We're still flying them." I was riding *in* the MAG-26
C-117D when I read such a press release in the Naval Aviation
News in the early/mid-sixties.

[Hey, riding in a Gooney Bird, you'll read *anything* you can get
your hands on. That was a slow, boring ride.]

--
OJ III

[John Carrier]

"Ogden Johnson III" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
>>See:
>>
>>http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004362.html
>
> Not so fast on the Buckeye, bucko.

Okay, there are going to be several private jets flying ... we had one of
them at the Meridian air show a couple months ago flown by an old friend of
mine.

But in an operational, military world, the Trusty Tubbyjet is gone, Gone,
GONE.

R/ John

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

John Carrier wrote:
> "Ogden Johnson III" > wrote in message
> ...
>> wrote:
>>
>>> See:
>>>
>>> http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004362.html
>> Not so fast on the Buckeye, bucko.
>
> Okay, there are going to be several private jets flying ... we had one of
> them at the Meridian air show a couple months ago flown by an old friend of
> mine.
>
> But in an operational, military world, the Trusty Tubbyjet is gone, Gone,
> GONE.
>
> R/ John
>
>

Used with great results at Pax in the OCF program. Don't know if that's
still being run but if not it should be.

--
Dudley Henriques

[John Carrier]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
> John Carrier wrote:
>> "Ogden Johnson III" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> See:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004362.html
>>> Not so fast on the Buckeye, bucko.
>>
>> Okay, there are going to be several private jets flying ... we had one of
>> them at the Meridian air show a couple months ago flown by an old friend
>> of mine.
>>
>> But in an operational, military world, the Trusty Tubbyjet is gone, Gone,
>> GONE.
>>
>> R/ John
>
> Used with great results at Pax in the OCF program. Don't know if that's
> still being run but if not it should be.

Should be. A onesy/twosy. The Tubby was/is a GREAT OCF airplane. You
could use any jet's recovery controls and the A/C would recover. There used
to be a fleet OCF program; once a year requal. Upright and inverted, rudder
triplets and lomchevacs.

Jerry Galagher (classmate, USNA '69) is still there IIRC. Mr. OCF for the
Navy for years. We've got two highly qualified OCF guys in Meridian (both
retired in the sim/ground school world). One was a fleet OCF guy and might
well be the jet lomchevac king. The other was doing OCF in T-2's forever,
first as a regular, then a reserve.

We don't spin the T-45. We do train to a few relatively benign departures;
a little more exotic stuff in the simulator, but it doesn't spin
predictably. It's inadvisable to spin most jets, though its done in flight
test (usually with spin chutes, etc hung on). The F-18 doesn't spin and the
latest flight control software evidently gets rid of its most serious
departure mode. The Turkey was easy to spin if you tried hard enough. I
don't think anyone ever recovered from a fully-developed F-14 spin.

R / John

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

John Carrier wrote:
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> ...
>> John Carrier wrote:
>>> "Ogden Johnson III" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> See:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004362.html
>>>> Not so fast on the Buckeye, bucko.
>>> Okay, there are going to be several private jets flying ... we had one of
>>> them at the Meridian air show a couple months ago flown by an old friend
>>> of mine.
>>>
>>> But in an operational, military world, the Trusty Tubbyjet is gone, Gone,
>>> GONE.
>>>
>>> R/ John
>> Used with great results at Pax in the OCF program. Don't know if that's
>> still being run but if not it should be.
>
> Should be. A onesy/twosy. The Tubby was/is a GREAT OCF airplane. You
> could use any jet's recovery controls and the A/C would recover. There used
> to be a fleet OCF program; once a year requal. Upright and inverted, rudder
> triplets and lomchevacs.
>
> Jerry Galagher (classmate, USNA '69) is still there IIRC. Mr. OCF for the
> Navy for years. We've got two highly qualified OCF guys in Meridian (both
> retired in the sim/ground school world). One was a fleet OCF guy and might
> well be the jet lomchevac king. The other was doing OCF in T-2's forever,
> first as a regular, then a reserve.
>
> We don't spin the T-45. We do train to a few relatively benign departures;
> a little more exotic stuff in the simulator, but it doesn't spin
> predictably. It's inadvisable to spin most jets, though its done in flight
> test (usually with spin chutes, etc hung on). The F-18 doesn't spin and the
> latest flight control software evidently gets rid of its most serious
> departure mode. The Turkey was easy to spin if you tried hard enough. I
> don't think anyone ever recovered from a fully-developed F-14 spin.
>
> R / John
>
>
On the Turkey spin; DD Smith and Pete Angelina put one in the bay at
Strike. They still show the film at TPS. Interesting that the airplane
recovered itself after the ejections altered the erect spin mode.

--
Dudley Henriques

[John Carrier]

Snip

> On the Turkey spin; DD Smith and Pete Angelina put one in the bay at
> Strike. They still show the film at TPS. Interesting that the airplane
> recovered itself after the ejections altered the erect spin mode.
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques

The simulator would spin flat too. If you swept the wings and began pumping
the stick, the nose would eventually fall through enough to effect recovery.
BUT

In the aircraft, the pilot was experiencing about 5 G eyeball out. Tough to
do anything with the flight controls when you're munching on the armament
control panel. I think that the ejection (action/reaction, thank you very
much Mr. Newton) was sufficient to push the nose down into the recovery.

Normally, you had to really hamburger the aircraft to spin it. BUT, an
engine snuffed at high AOA was experienced as a wing dropping off. Just a
little bit of inadvertent differential tail and off you went. I suspect the
DFC had a dramatic improvement at the limit, albeit at some penalty to those
who were really good at the limit.

R / John

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

John Carrier wrote:
> Snip
>
>> On the Turkey spin; DD Smith and Pete Angelina put one in the bay at
>> Strike. They still show the film at TPS. Interesting that the airplane
>> recovered itself after the ejections altered the erect spin mode.
>>
>> --
>> Dudley Henriques
>
> The simulator would spin flat too. If you swept the wings and began pumping
> the stick, the nose would eventually fall through enough to effect recovery.
> BUT
>
> In the aircraft, the pilot was experiencing about 5 G eyeball out. Tough to
> do anything with the flight controls when you're munching on the armament
> control panel. I think that the ejection (action/reaction, thank you very
> much Mr. Newton) was sufficient to push the nose down into the recovery.
>
> Normally, you had to really hamburger the aircraft to spin it. BUT, an
> engine snuffed at high AOA was experienced as a wing dropping off. Just a
> little bit of inadvertent differential tail and off you went. I suspect the
> DFC had a dramatic improvement at the limit, albeit at some penalty to those
> who were really good at the limit.
>
> R / John
>
>
They were testing for a new erect spin mode at Strike using the #619
engine test bed Turkey. They got it past PSG and it went flat. I can't
remember if he used asymmetrical thrust and in spin aileron to make it
go flat, but it did, and it accelerated to boot. The aoa was of course
pegged and the aircraft had a fluctuating low level airspeed.

DD was actually -7 sitting out front but Pete was almost through the
spin axis so his ride was much smoother.
They couldn't recover the aircraft. DD couldn't even reach the curtain
as you might imagine :-)
They finally got out. DD barely got his hands on the front handle but
just enough to fire the seat.
They recovered them both from the bay.

DD showed us a photograph of his face taken in the hospital several days
after the incident. You wouldn't believe how he looked. To me he looked
like he had been in a fight with a T Rex who had done a job on his face.
Every capillary in his eyes was ruptured and he was puffed out like no
tomorrow.

Best news was that they both survived. DD became a banker out in Ca.




--
Dudley Henriques

[John Carrier]

SNIP

> DD showed us a photograph of his face taken in the hospital several days
> after the incident. You wouldn't believe how he looked. To me he looked
> like he had been in a fight with a T Rex who had done a job on his face.
> Every capillary in his eyes was ruptured and he was puffed out like no
> tomorrow.
>
> Best news was that they both survived. DD became a banker out in Ca.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques

My VF-191 XO had an experience in the photo F-8 in which he experienced
considerable negative G. Ruptured the capilaries in the eyeballs. Blue
eyes amidst a solid red field. New callsign? Why "REDEYE" of course. Docs
told him he dodged a real bullet.

R / John

PS. You know what I like best about the Crusader community? The sea
stories are outrageous and they're all TRUE.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

John Carrier wrote:
> SNIP
>
>> DD showed us a photograph of his face taken in the hospital several days
>> after the incident. You wouldn't believe how he looked. To me he looked
>> like he had been in a fight with a T Rex who had done a job on his face.
>> Every capillary in his eyes was ruptured and he was puffed out like no
>> tomorrow.
>>
>> Best news was that they both survived. DD became a banker out in Ca.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dudley Henriques
>
> My VF-191 XO had an experience in the photo F-8 in which he experienced
> considerable negative G. Ruptured the capilaries in the eyeballs. Blue
> eyes amidst a solid red field. New callsign? Why "REDEYE" of course. Docs
> told him he dodged a real bullet.
>
> R / John
>
> PS. You know what I like best about the Crusader community? The sea
> stories are outrageous and they're all TRUE.
>
>

Yeah, it was one HELL of an airplane, under appreciated by many who
didn't fly it and solidly loved by those who did.

I've never had any of the fighters I was allowed to fly or flew on my
own into the negative side spin wise, but I have had a great deal of
experience doing inverted spins in the Pitts. It's a whole different
world :-)) It's funny about inverted spins and perspective. I've had
people watching me from the ground swear on a stack of bibles that I was
spinning to the right when in actuality I was spinning to the left. From
THEIR perspective, the airplane WAS spinning to the right :-)))
I've had many fun hours playing with this scenario explaining it in war
story "discussions" through the years.

--
Dudley Henriques