Is Zero Indicated Airspeed Possible?

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

There is the question. I'm in a mood today. Have you flown your
favorite aircraft with zero or near zero indicated airspeed? I'm
talking about controlled flight and predictable outcomes.
Let the games begin. I'm so freaking tired of beach volleyball and the
bull**** olympics that is full of professionals. Whoooooppppss I
digress
Zero IAS. Why is it important to pilots? And I'm talking about in
flight, not sitting on the ramp with the engine off.

[Viperdoc[_5_]]

I have done zero indicated airspeed routinely while flying acro- the top of
a hammerhead, tail slides, and lomcevaks come to mind.

[Steve Foley]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
...
> There is the question. I'm in a mood today. Have you flown your
> favorite aircraft with zero or near zero indicated airspeed?

Yup. This past Tuesday. Water in the pitot line. It wasn't much fun, because
I was pretty rusty. The ASI went to 60MPH and just stayed there after I
rotated.

When I pitched up, it dropped to zero, but I kept climbing. When I was
flying straignt and level, it seemed to clear up, but when I was landing, it
stayed at 80. I ended up dropping it a few feet when it stalled, but the ASI
still said 80.

[Sylvain]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:

> There is the question. I'm in a mood today. Have you flown your
> favorite aircraft with zero or near zero indicated airspeed?

I have flown an older (I mean, really old) glider that had a venturi
instead of a pitot, and the thing would happily drop to zero (not that it
was normally flying much faster :-) whenever you set it into a mildly
aggressive slip...

--Sylvain

[Rocky]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
> There is the question. I'm in a mood today. Have you flown your
> favorite aircraft with zero or near zero indicated airspeed? I'm
> talking about controlled flight and predictable outcomes.
> Let the games begin. I'm so freaking tired of beach volleyball and the
> bull**** olympics that is full of professionals. Whoooooppppss I
> digress
> Zero IAS. Why is it important to pilots? And I'm talking about in
> flight, not sitting on the ramp with the engine off.
1959 C-150 with 40' flaps and drooped wingtips. about 1/2 throttle, FULL
flaps and climbing 100 FPM at ZERO indicated air speed. I would guess is
was near 50+ but with the pitot tube at slow air speeds and high AOA it
read 0.

[[email protected]]

On Aug 15, 3:00 pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> There is the question. I'm in a mood today. Have you flown your
> favorite aircraft with zero or near zero indicated airspeed? I'm
> talking about controlled flight and predictable outcomes.
> Let the games begin. I'm so freaking tired of beach volleyball and the
> bull**** olympics that is full of professionals. Whoooooppppss I
> digress
> Zero IAS. Why is it important to pilots? And I'm talking about in
> flight, not sitting on the ramp with the engine off.

Ancient history, but the truth, On my IFR flight test, I cut the
throttle of the C172 I was flying on the takeoff run -- the airspeed
needle wouldn't come off zero. I announced the problem, probably with
a curse -- I wanted that rating, was at 199.2 hours total time, and so
ready!

The examiner said "Go anyway." Even now I am not sure I was flying a
legal airplane, but I do think my decision to chop the throttle told
him I'd probably make decent decisions as a pilot. I will admit
partial panel (needle, ball, and wind noise) was interesting, but it
was a tired 172 and spoke pretty loudly about its airspeed.

Turns out there was a bug that managed to hit the pitot dead center on
the airplane's last flight. I wonder now if testing the pitot heater
cooked it in place.

Two questions: during a flight test with an examiner, who is PIC?
I'm thinking here about taking responsibility for taking off. I assume
I was responsible, and probably showed poor judgment in taking off,
even with the go ahead from the examiner. Second question, was the
airplane legal without an airspeed indicator?

Even if the flight was NOT legal, I am not tearing up the card that
says "Instruments"

[Jim Logajan]

wrote:
> Second question, was the
> airplane legal without an airspeed indicator?

I believe FAR 91.205(d) or (b) would apply. It appears an operating
airspeed indicator was required.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in news:68fc8555-c715-436a-
:

> There is the question. I'm in a mood today. Have you flown your
> favorite aircraft with zero or near zero indicated airspeed?

Yep

Bertie

[TheSmokingGnu]

wrote:
> Turns out there was a bug that managed to hit the pitot dead center on
> the airplane's last flight. I wonder now if testing the pitot heater
> cooked it in place.

Mmm, fried bug. Was the bug too far into the tube to see from the
preflight, or are(were?) you not in the practice of checking the tube in
your walk-around?

> Two questions: during a flight test with an examiner, who is PIC?

The one making the go/no-go decision is the PIC. The one with his hands
on the controls is PIC (hint: the examinee is PIC. The examiner can tell
you to do anything, just like ATC can tell you to do anything. But you,
as PIC still make the decision whether to follow the instructions or
reject them).

> Second question, was the
> airplane legal without an airspeed indicator?

Instruments and equipment requirements

91.205 (d)(1)

IFR: Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section...

91.205 (b) (1): Airspeed indicator.

(hint: no.)

> Even if the flight was NOT legal, I am not tearing up the card that
> says "Instruments"

61.45 (b) (1) (i)

....An aircraft used for a practical test must have:

The equipment for each area of operation required for the practical test.

An airspeed indicator is required for most of the PTS tasks. I think you
made the right decision in aborting the takeoff, but you made the wrong
one in continuing the flight without essential equipment, and the
examiner is just as culpable for ignoring the PTS and the FARs to get a
student passed.

Another day, or another plane, perhaps, but not that day with that plane.

TheSmokingGnu

[Dallas]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:45:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

> Two questions: during a flight test with an examiner, who is PIC?

I recall my examiner stressing the point that she was legally my first
passenger, from that I'll deduce that the candidate for the certificate or
rating is the PIC.


--
Dallas

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Dallas > wrote in
:

> On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:02:16 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>
>>> There is the question. I'm in a mood today. Have you flown your
>>> favorite aircraft with zero or near zero indicated airspeed?
>
> I haven't done it, but flying through some icing with the pitot heat off
> should do the trick.
>

Tha'ts not flying with zero indicated airspeed, that's flying with the
airspeed indicator reading zero.

> So... what's your answer?


Hammerhaed turns and the like..


bertie
>

[Dallas]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:02:16 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

>> There is the question. I'm in a mood today. Have you flown your
>> favorite aircraft with zero or near zero indicated airspeed?

I haven't done it, but flying through some icing with the pitot heat off
should do the trick.

So... what's your answer?

--
Dallas

[Bob F.[_2_]]

"Dallas" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:02:16 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>
>>> There is the question. I'm in a mood today. Have you flown your
>>> favorite aircraft with zero or near zero indicated airspeed?
>
> I haven't done it, but flying through some icing with the pitot heat off
> should do the trick.
>
> So... what's your answer?
>
> --
> Dallas


If the pitot and weep hole ice over, the airspeed will not change until you
change altitude.

--
Regards, BobF.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

wrote:
>
>
> Two questions: during a flight test with an examiner, who is PIC?

Every examiner, on every checkride I've taken, has made it beyond clear
that _I_ was PIC before the engine started.

He made it clear that _I_ would be totally responsible for any violation
of FAR, airspace, etc...

[Bob F.[_2_]]

"Bob F." > wrote in message
. ..
> "Dallas" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:02:16 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>
>>>> There is the question. I'm in a mood today. Have you flown your
>>>> favorite aircraft with zero or near zero indicated airspeed?
>>
>> I haven't done it, but flying through some icing with the pitot heat off
>> should do the trick.
>>
>> So... what's your answer?
>>
>> --
>> Dallas
>
>
> If the pitot and weep hole ice over, the airspeed will not change until
> you change altitude.
>
> --
> Regards, BobF.


I had these airspeed experiences:
1. We were moving gliders from our winter storage location to our filed of
operation near Seattle. It was the first flight in the morning. This was
an extremely short field take off. We had a specially developed technique
to handle this including a very short tow rope. I was towing using a Pawnee
and noticed the AS to be very sluggish and it stopped at about 50 Kts. I
was committed for this size field and with a glider behind me to boot. I
wasn't sure of how fast I was going and just depended on experience,
aircraft feel and field length. I just cleared the fence. We climbed to
our agreed altitude, and kept a known throttle setting. When we got near
our final field, the glider released. My ASI was still indicating abt 60
kts but not changing except with altitude. I did a couple of stalls in
order to refresh myself of the nuances and feel of the Pawnee and then
returned to the field and made an uneventful landing. I later talked to the
glider pilot and to my delight he said he didn't notice anything out of the
ordinary during the whole event. A bug was found wedged in the pitot tube.

2. I had an instrument student on a 172 long cross country from SJC. We got
clearance, took off, and I noticed the ASI behaving very similarly. It was
indicating low but for some reason, the student said nothing. Just before
entering the cloud base, I pushed it over, asked the student to return for a
landing, negotiated this all with the tower and the student made an airspeed
indicator failure landing, a little hot, but just fine. Taxied back (still
indicating about 40 kts) to the flight school and pried out another bug.

A story I know of:
727, pitot heat breaker tripped, pilot didn't know. Pitot (actually called
an "air data sensor") froze over and as he was climbing the ASI was now
behaving like an altimeter. As the AS was increasing, he was increasing
pitch. It wasn't until he reached "stick shaker" did he put it all
together. There might be another variation and more details to this story,
since I now only remember the lesson and not the facts.

--
Regards, BobF.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Bob F." > wrote in
:

> "Bob F." > wrote in message
> . ..
>> "Dallas" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:02:16 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>>
>>>>> There is the question. I'm in a mood today. Have you flown your
>>>>> favorite aircraft with zero or near zero indicated airspeed?
>>>
>>> I haven't done it, but flying through some icing with the pitot heat
>>> off should do the trick.
>>>
>>> So... what's your answer?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dallas
>>
>>
>> If the pitot and weep hole ice over, the airspeed will not change
>> until you change altitude.
>>
>> --
>> Regards, BobF.
>
>
> I had these airspeed experiences:
> 1. We were moving gliders from our winter storage location to our
> filed of operation near Seattle. It was the first flight in the
> morning. This was an extremely short field take off. We had a
> specially developed technique to handle this including a very short
> tow rope. I was towing using a Pawnee and noticed the AS to be very
> sluggish and it stopped at about 50 Kts. I was committed for this
> size field and with a glider behind me to boot. I wasn't sure of how
> fast I was going and just depended on experience, aircraft feel and
> field length. I just cleared the fence. We climbed to our agreed
> altitude, and kept a known throttle setting. When we got near our
> final field, the glider released. My ASI was still indicating abt 60
> kts but not changing except with altitude. I did a couple of stalls
> in order to refresh myself of the nuances and feel of the Pawnee and
> then returned to the field and made an uneventful landing. I later
> talked to the glider pilot and to my delight he said he didn't notice
> anything out of the ordinary during the whole event. A bug was found
> wedged in the pitot tube.
>
> 2. I had an instrument student on a 172 long cross country from SJC.
> We got clearance, took off, and I noticed the ASI behaving very
> similarly. It was indicating low but for some reason, the student
> said nothing. Just before entering the cloud base, I pushed it over,
> asked the student to return for a landing, negotiated this all with
> the tower and the student made an airspeed indicator failure landing,
> a little hot, but just fine. Taxied back (still indicating about 40
> kts) to the flight school and pried out another bug.
>
> A story I know of:
> 727, pitot heat breaker tripped, pilot didn't know. Pitot (actually
> called an "air data sensor") froze over and as he was climbing the ASI
> was now behaving like an altimeter. As the AS was increasing, he was
> increasing pitch. It wasn't until he reached "stick shaker" did he
> put it all together. There might be another variation and more
> details to this story, since I now only remember the lesson and not
> the facts.
>


There was a 727 that crashed because of iced over pitot tubes. the pitot
heat wasn't truned on. The early pitot heat swtiching gave you greens if
the heat was n, bu tnothing if it was turned off. All Boeings were
modified to have a big amber light on if the heat was left off and
indications throughout the industry were rethought to ultimately develop
the "dark cockpits" we have today, mostly due to that accident.

Bertie

[Bob F.[_2_]]

One more AS experience I just remembered.

A fellow pilot just finished completely rebuilding his A36. We agreed to a
test plan. After the static tests we moved to 6 high speed taxi tests on
the active rwy at RHV. We kept the tower informed before these tests via
phone as a courtesy. On the first HS run, the AS went backwards about 15
dgrees to a stop and stayed there. No big deal, we instantly knew the pitot
and static lines were interchanged. We competed the other 5 runs just to
liftoff and stopped each time with the AS going negative each time. We went
back, changed the lines around and finished the reast of our tests
uneventfully.

Bob F.

[Bob F.[_2_]]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> There was a 727 that crashed because of iced over pitot tubes. the pitot
> heat wasn't truned on. The early pitot heat swtiching gave you greens if
> the heat was n, bu tnothing if it was turned off. All Boeings were
> modified to have a big amber light on if the heat was left off and
> indications throughout the industry were rethought to ultimately develop
> the "dark cockpits" we have today, mostly due to that accident.
>
> Bertie


Thanks Bertie.

Trivia Q. How many passenger windows were in the last 727 that Boeing
built?

A. Zero, it was a cargo plane. The windows were blocked over. They were
actually installed in case the aircraft was ever converted to a PAX version.
--
Regards, BobF.

[Tech Support]

OS&B

Instructing in the T-6 I used to win cokes from my Air Force students
by starting a loop at zero indicated airspeed.

Big John
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:00:23 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
> wrote:

>There is the question. I'm in a mood today. Have you flown your
>favorite aircraft with zero or near zero indicated airspeed? I'm
>talking about controlled flight and predictable outcomes.
>Let the games begin. I'm so freaking tired of beach volleyball and the
>bull**** olympics that is full of professionals. Whoooooppppss I
>digress
>Zero IAS. Why is it important to pilots? And I'm talking about in
>flight, not sitting on the ramp with the engine off.

[Dallas]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:54:07 -0400, Bob F. wrote:

> If the pitot and weep hole ice over, the airspeed will not change until you
> change altitude.

Whoops.. yeah... I knew that... temporary brain fart syndrome.

With the hole iced over it will act like an altimeter until the static port
ices over... then it just freezes in place.



--
Dallas

[Dallas]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 00:50:51 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

> There was a 727 that crashed because of iced over pitot tubes.

I remember reading about that... Didn't the cockpit recorder reveal the
crew going crazy trying to figure out what was going on?

--
Dallas

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Dallas > wrote in news:1mmc3o4ndvhyo
:

> On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 00:50:51 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>
>> There was a 727 that crashed because of iced over pitot tubes.
>
> I remember reading about that... Didn't the cockpit recorder reveal the
> crew going crazy trying to figure out what was going on?
>

Well, it was all over very quickly IIRC. I think the flight was a test
flight after some heavy maintenance. The airspeed went to max wehn they
iced over during the climb and the handling pilot pulled and stalled the
airplane. The disorientation would have built rapidly.

Bertie

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
...
>I have done zero indicated airspeed routinely while flying acro- the top
>of a hammerhead, tail slides, and lomcevaks come to mind.


Even a good wingover can get you near zero...

Plus you can be at 90 degrees of bank and ball in the center coordinated.

So, what's the point?

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Aug 15, 12:00*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> There is the question. I'm in a mood today. Have you flown your
> favorite aircraft with zero or near zero indicated airspeed? I'm
> talking about controlled flight and predictable outcomes.
> Let the games begin. I'm so freaking tired of beach volleyball and the
> bull**** olympics that is full of professionals. Whoooooppppss I
> digress
> Zero IAS. Why is it important to pilots? And I'm talking about in
> flight, not sitting on the ramp with the engine off.

Sure. The Decathlon flys great with zero IAS.

-Robert

[john smith]

In article
>,
"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:

> There is the question. I'm in a mood today. Have you flown your
> favorite aircraft with zero or near zero indicated airspeed? I'm
> talking about controlled flight and predictable outcomes.
> Let the games begin. I'm so freaking tired of beach volleyball and the
> bull**** olympics that is full of professionals. Whoooooppppss I
> digress
> Zero IAS. Why is it important to pilots? And I'm talking about in
> flight, not sitting on the ramp with the engine off.

In Kelly Johnson's autobiography, he wrote of flying with Howard Hughes
during an accepance flight of TWA's first Constellation. Hughes was in
the left seat, Johnson in the right. Hughes asked Johnson to demonstrate
a power on stall. Johnson did took the aircraft into the buffet and
recovered.
Hughes stated that what Johnson had done was not a stall and took
control of the aircraft. With the throttles full forward, Hughes pulled
the nose up. As the aircraft shuddered and started to fall off, Johnson
took control and recovered to level flight. Hughes, visibly shaken, sat
silently on the remainder of the flight back to the airport.

Johnson stated that it was the first and only time he had ever seen the
airspeed indicator on a commercial aircraft indicate zero.