Right Rudder

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

Oh my goodness....Right Rudder? Why in the world would any pilot need
right rudder and why do so many of todays pilots fail to have any
understanding of it? How come so many of todays pilots seem to hug the
left side of the runway?
Such a frustration for CFI's and I wonder how many of the current crop
of CFI's have a handle on it or even understand what they are trying
to teach?
Its a sad situation.
Your comments or observations?

[gatt[_5_]]

> Oh my goodness....Right Rudder? Why in the world would any pilot need
> right rudder

Huh?

> Such a frustration for CFI's and I wonder how many of the current crop
> of CFI's have a handle on it or even understand what they are trying
> to teach?

The FAA performs initial CFI checkrides directly so if a CFI candidate
doesn't have a handle on it, it should be immediately apparent to the
FAA itself.

What with the zero-flap forward slip to landing demonstrations and
cross-control stall discussion, not to mention all of the aerodynamic
questions on the CFI written alone, I don't think anybody will find that
the CFIs don't understand what they're trying to teach.


-c

[Jim Logajan]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> Oh my goodness....Right Rudder? Why in the world would any pilot need
> right rudder and why do so many of todays pilots fail to have any
> understanding of it?

I'm training in a glider - I hadn't noticed any asymmetries with regard to
rudder use. I suspect my CFI would slap me on the back of the head if I
didn't use appropriate rudder. Okay, maybe not, because she's a
veterinarian when not acting as a CFIG on the weekends, so I presume that
means she's good with animals and mongrel students like me.

;-)

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Aug 15, 2:42*pm, gatt > wrote:
> > Oh my goodness....Right Rudder? Why in the world would any pilot need
> > right rudder
>
> Huh?
>
> > Such a frustration for CFI's and I wonder how many of the current crop
> > of CFI's have a handle on it or even understand what they are trying
> > to teach?
>
> The FAA performs initial CFI checkrides directly so if a CFI candidate
> doesn't have a handle on it, it should be immediately apparent to the
> FAA itself.
>
> What with the zero-flap forward slip to landing demonstrations and
> cross-control stall discussion, not to mention all of the aerodynamic
> questions on the CFI written alone, I don't think anybody will find that
> the CFIs don't understand what they're trying to teach.
>
> -c

Then you should fly with the current crop of CFI's and ask them hard
questions about what they do and why?
It appears you have bought into the idea the FAA is the "be all, end
all " and is the untimate authority. I have a hard time with new CFI's
who can't teach a forward slip without the longitudinal axis going 10
degrees off line. They don't have a clue how to use the rudder
effectively.
And what of the zero flap forward slip to a landing? What about the
cross control stall discussion? To what meaning? BFD they can discuss
it and can't perform it and not have a clue how it relates to a spin
entry. Spins? What a joke. I challenge you to show me 10 out of 100
new CFI's who can do a coherent discussion and demonstration of spins
and recoveries or who have actually done them? Discussions are great
but its like sex. You can talk until you are blue in the face about
sex but don't have a clue until you have participated it.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Jim Logajan wrote:
> "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>> Oh my goodness....Right Rudder? Why in the world would any pilot need
>> right rudder and why do so many of todays pilots fail to have any
>> understanding of it?
>
> I'm training in a glider - I hadn't noticed any asymmetries with regard to
> rudder use. I suspect my CFI would slap me on the back of the head if I
> didn't use appropriate rudder. Okay, maybe not, because she's a
> veterinarian when not acting as a CFIG on the weekends, so I presume that
> means she's good with animals and mongrel students like me.
>
> ;-)

She could of course throw you to the dogs :-)

--
Dudley Henriques

[Jim Logajan]

Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> Jim Logajan wrote:
>> "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>>> Oh my goodness....Right Rudder? Why in the world would any pilot
>>> need right rudder and why do so many of todays pilots fail to have
>>> any understanding of it?
>>
>> I'm training in a glider - I hadn't noticed any asymmetries with
>> regard to rudder use. I suspect my CFI would slap me on the back of
>> the head if I didn't use appropriate rudder. Okay, maybe not, because
>> she's a veterinarian when not acting as a CFIG on the weekends, so I
>> presume that means she's good with animals and mongrel students like
>> me.
>>
>> ;-)
>
> She could of course throw you to the dogs :-)

That would worry me mightly if I had not already met the dogs. :-)

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Jim Logajan wrote:
> Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>> Jim Logajan wrote:
>>> "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>>>> Oh my goodness....Right Rudder? Why in the world would any pilot
>>>> need right rudder and why do so many of todays pilots fail to have
>>>> any understanding of it?
>>> I'm training in a glider - I hadn't noticed any asymmetries with
>>> regard to rudder use. I suspect my CFI would slap me on the back of
>>> the head if I didn't use appropriate rudder. Okay, maybe not, because
>>> she's a veterinarian when not acting as a CFIG on the weekends, so I
>>> presume that means she's good with animals and mongrel students like
>>> me.
>>>
>>> ;-)
>> She could of course throw you to the dogs :-)
>
> That would worry me mightly if I had not already met the dogs. :-)

Well, that being the case, you could of course become the teacher's pet!!
:-))

--
Dudley Henriques

[f-newguy]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
...
> Oh my goodness....Right Rudder? Why in the world would any pilot need
> right rudder and why do so many of todays pilots fail to have any
> understanding of it? How come so many of todays pilots seem to hug the
> left side of the runway?
> Such a frustration for CFI's and I wonder how many of the current crop
> of CFI's have a handle on it or even understand what they are trying
> to teach?
> Its a sad situation.
> Your comments or observations?

Something must have changed radically since I got my private ticket eleven
years ago. I remember a lot of emphasis on the rudder.

[buttman]

On Aug 15, 2:14*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> On Aug 15, 2:42*pm, gatt > wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Oh my goodness....Right Rudder? Why in the world would any pilot need
> > > right rudder
>
> > Huh?
>
> > > Such a frustration for CFI's and I wonder how many of the current crop
> > > of CFI's have a handle on it or even understand what they are trying
> > > to teach?
>
> > The FAA performs initial CFI checkrides directly so if a CFI candidate
> > doesn't have a handle on it, it should be immediately apparent to the
> > FAA itself.
>
> > What with the zero-flap forward slip to landing demonstrations and
> > cross-control stall discussion, not to mention all of the aerodynamic
> > questions on the CFI written alone, I don't think anybody will find that
> > the CFIs don't understand what they're trying to teach.
>
> > -c
>
> Then you should fly with the current crop of CFI's and ask them hard
> questions about what they do and why?
> It appears you have bought into the idea the FAA is the "be all, end
> all " and is the untimate authority. I have a hard time with new CFI's
> who can't teach a forward slip without the longitudinal axis going 10
> degrees off line. They don't have a clue how to use the rudder
> effectively.
> And what of the zero flap forward slip to a landing? What about the
> cross control stall discussion? To what meaning? BFD they can discuss
> it and can't perform it and not have a clue how it relates to a spin
> entry. Spins? What a joke. I challenge you to show me 10 out of 100
> new CFI's who can do a coherent discussion and demonstration of spins
> and recoveries or who have actually done them? Discussions are great
> but its like sex. You can talk until you are blue in the face about
> sex but don't have a clue until you have participated it.

I think you need to not generalize so much. I imagine most "current
crop of CFI's" you are referring to are people with roughly 250 hours
TT. Obviously they are not going to be Chuck Yeagers. And if you're
one of those 10,000+ hour pilots who can do it all, those CFI's are
going to look more worse than they really are.

As long as they can teach someone else how to fly without crashing in
the process or wasting a ton of time/money, then everything will be
OK. If, for some reason its still not OK, then just don't hire CFI's
with low time. Because there is really nothing else you can do about
it.

[Jim Logajan]

Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> Jim Logajan wrote:
>> Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>>> Jim Logajan wrote:
>>>> "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>>>>> Oh my goodness....Right Rudder? Why in the world would any pilot
>>>>> need right rudder and why do so many of todays pilots fail to have
>>>>> any understanding of it?
>>>> I'm training in a glider - I hadn't noticed any asymmetries with
>>>> regard to rudder use. I suspect my CFI would slap me on the back of
>>>> the head if I didn't use appropriate rudder. Okay, maybe not, because
>>>> she's a veterinarian when not acting as a CFIG on the weekends, so I
>>>> presume that means she's good with animals and mongrel students like
>>>> me.
>>>>
>>>> ;-)
>>> She could of course throw you to the dogs :-)
>>
>> That would worry me mightly if I had not already met the dogs. :-)
>
> Well, that being the case, you could of course become the teacher's pet!!
>:-))

Groan.

:-)

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Jim Logajan wrote:
> Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>> Jim Logajan wrote:
>>> Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>>>> Jim Logajan wrote:
>>>>> "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>>>>>> Oh my goodness....Right Rudder? Why in the world would any pilot
>>>>>> need right rudder and why do so many of todays pilots fail to have
>>>>>> any understanding of it?
>>>>> I'm training in a glider - I hadn't noticed any asymmetries with
>>>>> regard to rudder use. I suspect my CFI would slap me on the back of
>>>>> the head if I didn't use appropriate rudder. Okay, maybe not, because
>>>>> she's a veterinarian when not acting as a CFIG on the weekends, so I
>>>>> presume that means she's good with animals and mongrel students like
>>>>> me.
>>>>>
>>>>> ;-)
>>>> She could of course throw you to the dogs :-)
>>> That would worry me mightly if I had not already met the dogs. :-)
>> Well, that being the case, you could of course become the teacher's pet!!
>> :-))
>
> Groan.
>
> :-)

My wife LOVES Shakespeare. I can't understand the guy myself, except
what he said about puns.
:-))

--
Dudley Henriques

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
> Oh my goodness....Right Rudder? Why in the world would any pilot need
> right rudder and why do so many of todays pilots fail to have any
> understanding of it? How come so many of todays pilots seem to hug the
> left side of the runway?
> Such a frustration for CFI's and I wonder how many of the current crop
> of CFI's have a handle on it or even understand what they are trying
> to teach?
> Its a sad situation.
> Your comments or observations?
Most airplanes can be slowed down enough behind the curve to produce a 0
airspeed (IF) and it's a big IF, the aircraft has enough aileron
authority to counteract the torque. You can do this in a J3 for example,
but in the P51, you will torque roll the airplane before reaching a zero
airspeed.

--
Dudley Henriques

[gatt[_5_]]

buttman wrote:

>>Then you should fly with the current crop of CFI's and ask them hard
>>questions about what they do and why?

Well, a bunch of CFI candidates and I have been meeting two or three
times a week since about April and because I work ten hours a day, I'm
the last in line, but the others have passed their checkrides in the
last several weeks and already have students.

What exactly would you like me to ask them?

>>And what of the zero flap forward slip to a landing? What about the
>>cross control stall discussion? To what meaning? BFD they can discuss
>>it and can't perform it

Now, how in hell do you say they can't perform it? They DID perform it,
at least to PTS standards. Why are you suggesting to readers that they
can't?

>> Spins? What a joke. I challenge you to show me 10 out of 100
>>new CFI's who can do a coherent discussion and demonstration of spins
>>and recoveries or who have actually done them?

Again, you're showing total ignorance. Of the 10 CFIs I know, ALL OF
THEM HAVE DONE SPINS. Most recently, I demonstrated six of them with a
gold seal CFII-MEI on July 2. What exactly would you like to to discuss?

>> Discussions are great but its like sex. You can talk until you are blue in the face

Blahblahblah...are you not aware of 14 CFR 61.183 (i) 1 and 2? You have
to have a logbook endorsement from a CFI saying that you've demonstrated

> I think you need to not generalize so much. I imagine most "current
> crop of CFI's" you are referring to are people with roughly 250 hours
> TT. Obviously they are not going to be Chuck Yeagers.

And yet they've all demonstrated spins and spin recovery for a required
logbook endorsement prior to the checkride, and demonstrated
instructional proficiency in spin awareness and recovery during the exam.

> And if you're one of those 10,000+ hour pilots who can do it all,

How many of those do you think there are compared to the number of
people in primary, instrument or commercial training, or getting a
flight review?

> As long as they can teach someone else how to fly without crashing in
> the process or wasting a ton of time/money, then everything will be
> OK.

That's more or less obvious, isn't it?

-c

[gatt[_5_]]

gatt wrote:
> buttman wrote:

Sorry, I mangled the attributions and responded to both of you as if it
were one post. My error.

-c

[gatt[_5_]]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:

>
> Then you should fly with the current crop of CFI's and ask them hard
> questions about what they do and why?

I accidentally misquoted Buttman (?) in my reply to you. In a nutshell,
I've flown with a current crop of CFIs and hang out with them weekly. My
checkride is next week. I'm not doing it to build hours, by the way,
and certainly not for the money; I want to teach people to fly.

>I have a hard time with new CFI's who can't teach a forward slip
without the longitudinal
> axis going 10 degrees off line.

If that was the case they'd never pass the checkride.

> And what of the zero flap forward slip to a landing? What about the
> cross control stall discussion? To what meaning? BFD they can discuss
> it and can't perform it

I demonstrated spins in a C-150 for the chief instructor last month.
It's a required logbook endorsement for the CFI checkride. You have to
demonstrate spins and instructional proficiency, and then if you fail to
demonstrate instructional proficiency during the checkride you have to
go demonstrate spins themselves again with the instructor.

Been there, done that.

> I challenge you to show me 10 out of 100
> new CFI's who can do a coherent discussion and demonstration of spins
> and recoveries or who have actually done them?

Won't name names on the usenet, but 8/8 of the new CFIs in the last year
have done them and all of the older CFIs have as well.

-c

[gatt[_5_]]

Second attempt here...

buttman wrote:

> I think you need to not generalize so much. I imagine most "current
> crop of CFI's" you are referring to are people with roughly 250 hours
> TT. Obviously they are not going to be Chuck Yeagers. And if you're
> one of those 10,000+ hour pilots who can do it all, those CFI's are
> going to look more worse than they really are.

Agreed.


> As long as they can teach someone else how to fly without crashing in
> the process or wasting a ton of time/money, then everything will be
> OK. If, for some reason its still not OK, then just don't hire CFI's
> with low time. Because there is really nothing else you can do about
> it.

Still stating the obvious, and I totally agree.

I apologize again for confusing your post with the one to which you were
replying. You guys have a great weekend!


-c

[Robert Moore]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote
> I have a hard time with new CFI's
> who can't teach a forward slip without the longitudinal axis going 10
> degrees off line.

Is there something here that I don't understand? In a forward slip to
a landing (to lose altitude), of course the longitudinal axis is not
aligned with the runway. The axis and runway SHOULD be aligned in a
side slip (crosswind correction). Did I misread something?

Bob Moore
Flight Instructor ASE IA since 1970
ATP B-727 B-707 PanAm (retired)

[karl mcgruber]

I just wait for a day with a big right crosswind!

Karl
"Curator"

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
...
> Oh my goodness....Right Rudder? Why in the world would any pilot need
> right rudder and why do so many of todays pilots fail to have any
> understanding of it? How come so many of todays pilots seem to hug the
> left side of the runway?
> Such a frustration for CFI's and I wonder how many of the current crop
> of CFI's have a handle on it or even understand what they are trying
> to teach?
> Its a sad situation.
> Your comments or observations?

[[email protected]]

Ol Shy & Bashful > wrote:
> Oh my goodness....Right Rudder? Why in the world would any pilot need
> right rudder and why do so many of todays pilots fail to have any
> understanding of it? How come so many of todays pilots seem to hug the
> left side of the runway?
> Such a frustration for CFI's and I wonder how many of the current crop
> of CFI's have a handle on it or even understand what they are trying
> to teach?
> Its a sad situation.
> Your comments or observations?

Once you've passed the check ride there is no one screaming in your
ear to keep it over the center line and people get sloppy.

And if the runway is wide, what difference does it make until the
runway isn't...

Personally, since my airplae has a free castoring nose wheel and a
bad record of people hitting things at the edge of the runway, I
try to keep things centered.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Mike[_22_]]

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
5.205...
> "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote
>> I have a hard time with new CFI's
>> who can't teach a forward slip without the longitudinal axis going 10
>> degrees off line.
>
> Is there something here that I don't understand? In a forward slip to
> a landing (to lose altitude), of course the longitudinal axis is not
> aligned with the runway. The axis and runway SHOULD be aligned in a
> side slip (crosswind correction). Did I misread something?

No, you got it right. Apparently the OP doesn't quite have a handle or
doesn't understand what he's trying to teach.