What to do if the canopy opens during flight ?

[Superdoof]

Hi,
In the video at www.fulldeflection.com , Kirby Chambliss has his
canopy fly open during flight.
He was very cool about it. I think he made all the right choices.

I've had a door open a few times during flight too, on a Cessna 152.
My instructor showed me how to close it in-flight.

You slow down to nearly stall speed, which means you can open the door
just wide enough to slam it well enough to close. Although it would be
safe to leave open.

Imagine if Svetlana Kapanina, or Patty Wagstaff had their canopies
open. There'd be hair everywhere.

Superdoof.

[Vaughn Simon]

"Superdoof" > wrote in message
...

The answer to your question is to put everything else out of your mind that
does not involve flying the aircraft. Fly the plane! With one notable
exception that comes quickly to mind (Katana), your plane will fly just fine
with the canopy open (or gone).

Actually, canopies are dangerous things. They tend to be very expensive, and
tend to not be "idiot proof". That is, if the pilot fails to check the security
of the canopy before flight, it might fly open on takeoff, a really bad time for
a pilot to be distracted! I keep a file of glider canopy accidents. Some
involve fatalities.



--
Vaughn

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nothing personal, but if you are posting through Google Groups I may not receive
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a real NNTP server & news reader program and you will never go back. All you
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$3.95 setup fee.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Will poofread for food.

[buttman]

On Aug 15, 4:40*pm, Superdoof > wrote:
>
> I've had a door open a few times during flight too, on a Cessna 152.
> My instructor showed me how to close it in-flight.
>
> You slow down to nearly stall speed, which means you can open the door
> just wide enough to slam it well enough to close. Although it would be
> safe to leave open.
>

What? You don't even need to do that. I have about 800 hours in a
C152, which means I've about 800 instances of the door popping open.

First you open the window, then you grab the door by the window frame,
push out hard against the relative wind, then slam it close. You don't
even need to slow down, unless you are a wimp or something.

[More_Flaps]

On Aug 16, 11:21*am, buttman > wrote:
> On Aug 15, 4:40*pm, Superdoof > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I've had a door open a few times during flight too, on a Cessna 152.
> > My instructor showed me how to close it in-flight.
>
> > You slow down to nearly stall speed, which means you can open the door
> > just wide enough to slam it well enough to close. Although it would be
> > safe to leave open.
>
> What? You don't even need to do that. I have about 800 hours in a
> C152, which means I've about 800 instances of the door popping open.
>
> First you open the window, then you grab the door by the window frame,
> push out hard against the relative wind, then slam it close. You don't
> even need to slow down, unless you are a wimp or something.

You need to either get the door catch fixed or do your pre take off
checks properly.

Cheers

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

buttman > wrote in news:09c6c89f-3978-48a9-805a-
:

> On Aug 15, 4:40*pm, Superdoof > wrote:
>>
>> I've had a door open a few times during flight too, on a Cessna 152.
>> My instructor showed me how to close it in-flight.
>>
>> You slow down to nearly stall speed, which means you can open the door
>> just wide enough to slam it well enough to close. Although it would be
>> safe to leave open.
>>
>
> What? You don't even need to do that. I have about 800 hours in a
> C152, which means I've about 800 instances of the door popping open.

IOW you don't know how to secure the door in your airplane and you don't
know how to squawk an airplane to a mechanic.



Bertie

[buttman]

On Aug 15, 5:24*pm, More_Flaps > wrote:
> On Aug 16, 11:21*am, buttman > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 15, 4:40*pm, Superdoof > wrote:
>
> > > I've had a door open a few times during flight too, on a Cessna 152.
> > > My instructor showed me how to close it in-flight.
>
> > > You slow down to nearly stall speed, which means you can open the door
> > > just wide enough to slam it well enough to close. Although it would be
> > > safe to leave open.
>
> > What? You don't even need to do that. I have about 800 hours in a
> > C152, which means I've about 800 instances of the door popping open.
>
> > First you open the window, then you grab the door by the window frame,
> > push out hard against the relative wind, then slam it close. You don't
> > even need to slow down, unless you are a wimp or something.
>
> You need to either get the door catch fixed or do your pre take off
> checks properly.
>
> Cheers

I was exagerating on the amount of instances the door has popped open.
More like 50 or 100 instances.

The C152 door latch was very poorly designed. Its not like Piper/
Beechcraft latches or even a 172 latch. There is no locking mechanism.
The way they work is theres a little bolt thing that sticks out from
the door that gets wedged between these gears in the door frame. As
those planes age the latch gets weaker and weaker to where you have to
slam them every time, and even then, it'll still pop open.

[george]

On Aug 16, 11:32 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> buttman > wrote in news:09c6c89f-3978-48a9-805a-
> :
>
> > On Aug 15, 4:40 pm, Superdoof > wrote:
>
> >> I've had a door open a few times during flight too, on a Cessna 152.
> >> My instructor showed me how to close it in-flight.
>
> >> You slow down to nearly stall speed, which means you can open the door
> >> just wide enough to slam it well enough to close. Although it would be
> >> safe to leave open.
>
> > What? You don't even need to do that. I have about 800 hours in a
> > C152, which means I've about 800 instances of the door popping open.
>
> IOW you don't know how to secure the door in your airplane and you don't
> know how to squawk an airplane to a mechanic.
>

:-)
The door opening on a C150-152 is no worry.
You have an 85 knot air stream that's going to hold it from opening
any further.
Aircraft with sliding canopies can be flown with the canopy ajar and
even fully open..

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

george > wrote in
:

> On Aug 16, 11:32 am, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> buttman > wrote in news:09c6c89f-3978-48a9-805a-
>> :
>>
>> > On Aug 15, 4:40 pm, Superdoof > wrote:
>>
>> >> I've had a door open a few times during flight too, on a Cessna
>> >> 152. My instructor showed me how to close it in-flight.
>>
>> >> You slow down to nearly stall speed, which means you can open the
>> >> door just wide enough to slam it well enough to close. Although it
>> >> would be safe to leave open.
>>
>> > What? You don't even need to do that. I have about 800 hours in a
>> > C152, which means I've about 800 instances of the door popping
>> > open.
>>
>> IOW you don't know how to secure the door in your airplane and you
>> don't know how to squawk an airplane to a mechanic.
>>
>
>:-)
> The door opening on a C150-152 is no worry.
> You have an 85 knot air stream that's going to hold it from opening
> any further.
> Aircraft with sliding canopies can be flown with the canopy ajar and
> even fully open..
>
>

Some can. I did have th ecanopy on a Blanik open in flight. KIt made
quite a mess when it crashed agains the side of the fuselage. The
remnants came crashing back and the glide angle was severely affected by
the big hole in the airplane.

Bertie

[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article
>,
Superdoof > wrote:

> Hi,
> In the video at www.fulldeflection.com , Kirby Chambliss has his
> canopy fly open during flight.
> He was very cool about it. I think he made all the right choices.
>
> I've had a door open a few times during flight too, on a Cessna 152.
> My instructor showed me how to close it in-flight.
>
> You slow down to nearly stall speed, which means you can open the door
> just wide enough to slam it well enough to close. Although it would be
> safe to leave open.
>
> Imagine if Svetlana Kapanina, or Patty Wagstaff had their canopies
> open. There'd be hair everywhere.
>
> Superdoof.

It depends on the airplane. Bonanzas,Comanche, Cherokees, etc. can fly
safely, at reduced speed, until landing. The big mistake a lot of
Bonanza pilots have made is exactly the procedure outlined above. They
stalled, the airplane snapped and they went in.

Best procedure is to slow down to best glide speed, either leave the
door alone or have a passenger (if available) hold the back side of the
door to keep it from fluttering, and land at the nearest airport.

The plane will fly quite nicely (and safely) under these conditions.

Some experimentals may experience disruption of the airflow over the
tail and may be in a heap o' hurt if the canopy opens in flight; others
have no problem.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:32:34 -0700 (PDT), buttman >
wrote:

>On Aug 15, 5:24*pm, More_Flaps > wrote:
>> On Aug 16, 11:21*am, buttman > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 15, 4:40*pm, Superdoof > wrote:
>>
>> > > I've had a door open a few times during flight too, on a Cessna 152.
>> > > My instructor showed me how to close it in-flight.
>>
>> > > You slow down to nearly stall speed, which means you can open the door
>> > > just wide enough to slam it well enough to close. Although it would be
>> > > safe to leave open.
>>
>> > What? You don't even need to do that. I have about 800 hours in a
>> > C152, which means I've about 800 instances of the door popping open.
>>
>> > First you open the window, then you grab the door by the window frame,
>> > push out hard against the relative wind, then slam it close. You don't
>> > even need to slow down, unless you are a wimp or something.
>>
>> You need to either get the door catch fixed or do your pre take off
>> checks properly.
>>
>> Cheers
>
>I was exagerating on the amount of instances the door has popped open.
>More like 50 or 100 instances.
>
>The C152 door latch was very poorly designed. Its not like Piper/
>Beechcraft latches or even a 172 latch. There is no locking mechanism.
>The way they work is theres a little bolt thing that sticks out from
>the door that gets wedged between these gears in the door frame. As
>those planes age the latch gets weaker and weaker to where you have to
>slam them every time, and even then, it'll still pop open.

it has stuff all to do with the door latch.
that aircraft has a vent problem. air inlets working but air outlets
blocked.
Stealth Pilot

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Dallas" > wrote

> Here's a photo of my finger after doing that in a 172 when the window came
> down in the slipstream:

<chuckle>

Sorry to see that happened to you. Sorry for laughing, too, but you are as
bad as me! It takes a special person to take time to take a close-up of a
"good injury." Is that two or three stitches worth? Surprising that a
window can do that.

I have a picture of an air nail gun powered roofing nail going in and back
out the other side of my thumb. It's one of my favorites!
--
Jim in NC

[Dallas]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:21:47 -0700 (PDT), buttman wrote:

> First you open the window, then you grab the door by the window frame,
> push out hard against the relative wind, then slam it close.

Here's a photo of my finger after doing that in a 172 when the window came
down in the slipstream:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Dallas52/Dallas/DondoesDallas030.jpg


--
Dallas

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Dallas" > wrote

> Ouch!
>
> But it could have been worse:
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Dallas52/Dallas/Safetyatwork.jpg

Yeowser! That one is hard to imagine. It must have involved using the gun
over your head, firing it towards the face, and the safety was pressed by
the edge of the wood, but the nail was not over the wood.

How do I come to that conclusion? I did the same to my hand, one time.
Those are the only two times in all the hours of using nail guns that have
gotten me "nailed." I'm a carpenter by trade, by the by.

The nail in the thumb was really strange. The hose was fouled, so a gave it
a big whip to shake it loose, and as I did, the safety contacted my opposite
hand, but the trigger must have gotten bumped in the process of whipping the
hose. Kinda' stupid, but most accidents are. :-(
..
Anyway, did you manage to get the door shut when you cut your finger? I
suppose you turned around and went for medical attention.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Superdoof" > wrote

> Imagine if Svetlana Kapanina, or Patty Wagstaff had their canopies
> open. There'd be hair everywhere.

Patty has short hair, now. I liked her much better as a curly headed
brunette.

I have the opposite fear of the canopies that the windshield and canopy
overhead are all one piece, and the hinges are at the leading edge of the
canopy.

What would you do if you wanted to get out of the crashing airplane, and had
a parachute, of course? I understand that some have an emergency hinge
release. That would be better than noting, but then you get to wear the
canopy in your face, I would think.

I surely would be very uncomfortable flying a plane without a hinge release,
especially while testing, or flying acro.
--
Jim in NC

[Dallas]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 21:35:10 -0400, Morgans wrote:

> Surprising that a window can do that.

It's ok to laugh... it was funny about twenty minutes after it happened.

Right after it happened, the first thing I did was to look to see if my
finger was still there. It was a miracle it didn't break the bone.

I have a nice scar that should be there for the rest of my life... It's a
great conversation starter at cocktail parties.


--
Dallas

[Dallas]

On 17 Aug 2008 00:52:50 GMT, Clark wrote:

> Ya didn't leave bloodstains on the aircraft, did you?

Ha...
I was actually flying with ManhattanMan from this group. If he hadn't come
up with the handkerchief we would have had to land to stop the bleeding.

--
Dallas

[Dallas]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 21:35:10 -0400, Morgans wrote:

> I have a picture of an air nail gun powered roofing nail going in and back
> out the other side of my thumb.

Ouch!

But it could have been worse:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/Dallas52/Dallas/Safetyatwork.jpg


--
Dallas

[Peter Dohm]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Superdoof" > wrote
>
>> Imagine if Svetlana Kapanina, or Patty Wagstaff had their canopies
>> open. There'd be hair everywhere.
>
> Patty has short hair, now. I liked her much better as a curly headed
> brunette.
>
> I have the opposite fear of the canopies that the windshield and canopy
> overhead are all one piece, and the hinges are at the leading edge of the
> canopy.
>
> What would you do if you wanted to get out of the crashing airplane, and
> had a parachute, of course? I understand that some have an emergency
> hinge release. That would be better than noting, but then you get to wear
> the canopy in your face, I would think.
>
> I surely would be very uncomfortable flying a plane without a hinge
> release, especially while testing, or flying acro.
> --
> Jim in NC
I have exactly the same concern about those tilt forward canopies; and don't
know how, or if, it is adiquately adressed. It just seems like a high price
to make egress easier on the ramp.

Peter

[Vaughn Simon]

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
. ..
> I have exactly the same concern about those tilt forward canopies; and don't
> know how, or if, it is adiquately adressed. It just seems like a high price
> to make egress easier on the ramp.

In my experience, a conopy does nothing to make egress easier on the ramp.
In fact, I recently stopped renting a factory made Zenith partially because it
is difficult for a solo pilot to close and properly latch the ill-fitting
canopy. I will take a real door any day.

What a canopy really does is simplify airframe design, particularly for a
mid-wing design; but it does so at the expense of adding a whole new set of
problems.

Vaughn

[Rocky Stevens]

On Aug 17, 10:22 am, "Vaughn Simon"
> wrote:
> "Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
>
> . ..
>
> > I have exactly the same concern about those tilt forward canopies; and don't
> > know how, or if, it is adiquately adressed. It just seems like a high price
> > to make egress easier on the ramp.
>
> In my experience, a conopy does nothing to make egress easier on the ramp.
> In fact, I recently stopped renting a factory made Zenith partially because it
> is difficult for a solo pilot to close and properly latch the ill-fitting
> canopy. I will take a real door any day.
>
> What a canopy really does is simplify airframe design, particularly for a
> mid-wing design; but it does so at the expense of adding a whole new set of
> problems.
>
> Vaughn

Not that anecdotal evidence means anything, but my flying lessons have
been stopped for over a week due to some latch problem with the
Evektor Sportstar's canopy. VERY frustrating....

[[email protected]]

Vaughn Simon > wrote:
>
> "Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> I have exactly the same concern about those tilt forward canopies; and don't
>> know how, or if, it is adiquately adressed. It just seems like a high price
>> to make egress easier on the ramp.
>
> In my experience, a conopy does nothing to make egress easier on the ramp.
> In fact, I recently stopped renting a factory made Zenith partially because it
> is difficult for a solo pilot to close and properly latch the ill-fitting
> canopy. I will take a real door any day.

The canopy on a Grumman does what a canopy is supposed to do and slides
back.

> What a canopy really does is simplify airframe design, particularly for a
> mid-wing design; but it does so at the expense of adding a whole new set of
> problems.

The only problems with Grumman canopies is the $3 nylon bushing that
wears out and you need to clean and lube the tracks now and then.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[TheSmokingGnu]

Dallas wrote:
> When I
> pushed the door open into the 100 knot slipstream, it came down with equal
> force.

Lesson learned: don't open the window, push on the interior frame with
your palm flat and vertical and your thumb straight out to the right.

Review required: Parasite drag. :P


TheSmokingGnu

[Dallas]

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 09:00:02 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio wrote:

> Life's journey is not to arrive at
> the grave safely in a pristine,
> well-preserved body,but rather to
> skid in sideways, totally used up
> and worn out, shouting
> "Holy ****...what a ride!!"

....and with the most toys.

:- )

--
Dallas

[Dallas]

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 01:57:21 -0400, Morgans wrote:

> Anyway, did you manage to get the door shut when you cut your finger?

I was a student flying dual with my CFI (ManhattanMan was in the back seat
waiting for his turn to fly). The CFI said he *thought* the door was open
and he gave me the instructions on what to do.

When I opened the window it stayed up, so I used my right hand to pop the
latch while holding the door by the window frame with my left. When I
pushed the door open into the 100 knot slipstream, it came down with equal
force.

Looking back it was predictable, but as a student I was doing everything
the CFI told me to do. The funny part was that I was sure the door wasn't
open.

> suppose you turned around and went for medical attention.

Hell no, no pussies on that airplane! We tied it off until my finger tip
was turning blue, then went on to fly for 2 more hours. :- )


--
Dallas

[Peter Dohm]

> wrote in message
...
> Vaughn Simon > wrote:
>>

> The canopy on a Grumman does what a canopy is supposed to do and slides
> back.
>
(some snipped)
> --
> Jim Pennino

I agree completely!

Personally, as a builder, I would be inclined to add a couple of hand grips
in the glareshield and a ridge across the floor about a foot ahead of the
seat, to make it easier to heave myself up and out; but that does not
detract in any way from the basic concept that the canopy of a small GA
aircraft should slide back as its means of opening.

Peter

[[email protected]]

Peter Dohm > wrote:
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> Vaughn Simon > wrote:
>>>
>
>> The canopy on a Grumman does what a canopy is supposed to do and slides
>> back.
>>
> (some snipped)
>> --
>> Jim Pennino
>
> I agree completely!
>
> Personally, as a builder, I would be inclined to add a couple of hand grips
> in the glareshield and a ridge across the floor about a foot ahead of the
> seat, to make it easier to heave myself up and out; but that does not
> detract in any way from the basic concept that the canopy of a small GA
> aircraft should slide back as its means of opening.

On the Grummans, there is a metal bow for the seal and latching
mechanism that works fine for a hand hold.

The seat cushions flip up with your toes so you step in onto the
seat pan, then the floor and sit down. It is a lot easier than it
sounds.

See:

http://mail.specsol.com/~jimp/tiger.jpg


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Vaughn Simon]

"Rocky Stevens" > wrote in message
...
>
> Not that anecdotal evidence means anything, but my flying lessons have
> been stopped for over a week due to some latch problem with the
> Evektor Sportstar's canopy. VERY frustrating....

Yes, a broken canopy can cost thousands to repair and ground a plane for
months.

I have a few years of glider instructing in my background. Since most
gliders have hinged canopies, one of the first lectures any of our student
received is on the care and feeding of canopies:

-They are never slammed.

-You never walk away from an open canopy (can get blown closed and cracked).

-You never sit in a cockpit with the canopy closed but not latched (might
forget & take off with unlatched canopy).

-Check latch & push up on canopy as part of every pre-takeoff check.

-Never wear a baseball hat with a button on top (good advice in any aircraft,
but especially true with a canopy).

-If things suddenly get noisy and windy, forget the canopy and fly the aircraft.


--
Vaughn

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nothing personal, but if you are posting through Google Groups I may not receive
your message. Google refuses to control the flood of spam messages originating
in their system, so on any given day I may or may not have Google blocked. Try
a real NNTP server & news reader program and you will never go back. All you
need is access to an NNTP server (AKA "news server") and a news reader program.
You probably already have a news reader program in your computer (Hint: Outlook
Express). Assuming that your Usenet needs are modest, use
http://news.aioe.org/ for free and/or http://www.teranews.com/ for a one-time
$3.95 setup fee.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Will poofread for food.

[Peter Dohm]

> wrote in message
...
> Peter Dohm > wrote:
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Vaughn Simon > wrote:
>>>>
>>
>>> The canopy on a Grumman does what a canopy is supposed to do and slides
>>> back.
>>>
>> (some snipped)
>>> --
>>> Jim Pennino
>>
>> I agree completely!
>>
>> Personally, as a builder, I would be inclined to add a couple of hand
>> grips
>> in the glareshield and a ridge across the floor about a foot ahead of the
>> seat, to make it easier to heave myself up and out; but that does not
>> detract in any way from the basic concept that the canopy of a small GA
>> aircraft should slide back as its means of opening.
>
> On the Grummans, there is a metal bow for the seal and latching
> mechanism that works fine for a hand hold.
>
> The seat cushions flip up with your toes so you step in onto the
> seat pan, then the floor and sit down. It is a lot easier than it
> sounds.
>
> See:
>
> http://mail.specsol.com/~jimp/tiger.jpg
>
>
> --
> Jim Pennino
>
That sounds like a good concept.

BTW, that paint scheme suits the tiger very well.

Peter

[John Godwin]

wrote in
:

> The canopy on a Grumman does what a canopy is supposed to do and
> slides back.

The folks at Zlin would disagree :-)

--

[[email protected]]

John Godwin > wrote:
> wrote in
> :
>
>> The canopy on a Grumman does what a canopy is supposed to do and
>> slides back.
>
> The folks at Zlin would disagree :-)

Only because they had a bunch of Pole illegal immigrants working in the
factory who were putting the canopies on backwards and by the time anyone
noticed, it was too late...

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.