Becker vs Microair

[Dixie Sierra]

I've decided to give up on my Avionic Dittel and buy new. It's been a
good radio and has given many years of service, but I'd like some new
functionality.

Functionality is really at the heart of my dilemna. I've kind of
narrowed things down to Becker vs Microair (I've ruled out Walter
Dittel on price... everyone has a limit independent of reason). There
seems to be a broad consensus that the Becker is a more reliable
choice. However, the Microair seems to offer a number of superior
features.

1) Remote operation from a stick mounted toggle.
2) Dual scan beteween the active and standby freqs with the ability to
transmit on the active. (Becker also offers a scan option but it seems
to be cover far more freqs and the freqs covered can only be changed
by turning the radio off and on at least twice. Dual scan seems very
nice when flying XC in the vicinity of an active airport.)
3 Alpha descriptions of saved freqs.
4) Variable squelch (Becker has this, but not without turning the
radio off and on at least twice to make changes.)


So here I am... The Microair costs less and has "better" features. But
who cares if it doesn't work?

What to do? What to do?.. I think I'll fly with the handheld!

What am I missing? I'm sure there are many cosniderations that escape
me.

Doug

[GK[_1_]]

On Aug 15, 8:18*pm, Dixie Sierra > wrote:
> I've decided to give up on my Avionic Dittel and buy new. It's been a
> good radio and has given many years of service, but I'd like some new
> functionality.
>
> Functionality is really at the heart of my dilemna. I've kind of
> narrowed things down to Becker vs Microair (I've ruled out Walter
> Dittel on price... everyone has a limit independent of reason). There
> seems to be a broad consensus that the Becker is a more reliable
> choice. However, the Microair seems to offer a number of superior
> features.
>
> 1) Remote operation from a stick mounted toggle.
> 2) Dual scan beteween the active and standby freqs with the ability to
> transmit on the active. (Becker also offers a scan option but it seems
> to be cover far more freqs and the freqs covered can only be changed
> by turning the radio off and on at least twice. Dual scan seems very
> nice when flying XC in the vicinity of an active airport.)
> 3 Alpha descriptions of saved freqs.
> 4) Variable squelch (Becker has this, but not without turning the
> radio off and on at least twice to make changes.)
>
> So here I am... The Microair costs less and has "better" features. But
> who cares if it doesn't work?
>
> What to do? What to do?.. I think I'll fly with the handheld!
>
> What am I missing? I'm sure there are many cosniderations that escape
> me.
>
> Doug

- Statistically speaking I know of THREE cases of Micro air radio
having problems with transmitting once the radio gets warm - usually
an hour into flight. The two Becker’s (one being mine) on the other
hand seem to work flawlessly.
So, save yourself the arse pain, spend little more and have a product
that has a solid dependability record; it’s not like you buy one every
year. Besides there is nothing more frustrating than your equipment
not operative on that good day.
Good luck.

GK

[Darryl Ramm]

On Aug 15, 5:40*pm, GK > wrote:
> On Aug 15, 8:18*pm, Dixie Sierra > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I've decided to give up on my Avionic Dittel and buy new. It's been a
> > good radio and has given many years of service, but I'd like some new
> > functionality.
>
> > Functionality is really at the heart of my dilemna. I've kind of
> > narrowed things down to Becker vs Microair (I've ruled out Walter
> > Dittel on price... everyone has a limit independent of reason). There
> > seems to be a broad consensus that the Becker is a more reliable
> > choice. However, the Microair seems to offer a number of superior
> > features.
>
> > 1) Remote operation from a stick mounted toggle.
> > 2) Dual scan beteween the active and standby freqs with the ability to
> > transmit on the active. (Becker also offers a scan option but it seems
> > to be cover far more freqs and the freqs covered can only be changed
> > by turning the radio off and on at least twice. Dual scan seems very
> > nice when flying XC in the vicinity of an active airport.)
> > 3 Alpha descriptions of saved freqs.
> > 4) Variable squelch (Becker has this, but not without turning the
> > radio off and on at least twice to make changes.)
>
> > So here I am... The Microair costs less and has "better" features. But
> > who cares if it doesn't work?
>
> > What to do? What to do?.. I think I'll fly with the handheld!
>
> > What am I missing? I'm sure there are many cosniderations that escape
> > me.
>
> > Doug
>
> *- Statistically speaking I know *of THREE cases of Micro air radio
> having problems with transmitting once the radio gets warm - usually
> an hour into flight. The two Becker’s (one being mine) on the other
> hand seem to work flawlessly.
> So, save yourself the arse pain, spend little more and have a product
> that has a solid dependability record; it’s not like you buy one every
> year. Besides there is nothing more frustrating than your equipment
> not operative on that good day.
> Good luck.
>
> GK

Kind of comparing a Mercedes and a Lada. IMNSHO

Feature shopping is not where I'd start. Reputation. Reliability.
Service support. What else is used locally?

I suffered with an early Microair radio while training. Display would
go to garbage (Chinese like characters) and it would have other
problems when it got hot. I believe that some problems have been
addressed but that was such a substandard experience, and I've seen
others Microairs with the same problems. Personally I'd not touch
them. By comparisons I've owned two Becker radios and two Becker
transponders and used more in club ships with no problems. Also
excellent fast turn around on Becker repairs with a Becker USA service
center (one of the transponders had its fuse blown by an external
error - not Becker's problems). I flew last weekend in a Duo Discus
with a Microair transponder and its slightly funky user interface and
hard to read display had me wanting my Becker transponder....

it is claimed that the Beckers also run better at lower voltage but
I've not tested this myself.

Darryl

[[email protected]]

We have had a Microair on our plane. It has never worked properly, in
spite of two returns to the factory. We don't bother anymore. 'Nough
said.

Cheers, Charles

[Uncle Fuzzy]

On Aug 15, 5:40*pm, GK > wrote:
> On Aug 15, 8:18*pm, Dixie Sierra > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I've decided to give up on my Avionic Dittel and buy new. It's been a
> > good radio and has given many years of service, but I'd like some new
> > functionality.
>
> > Functionality is really at the heart of my dilemna. I've kind of
> > narrowed things down to Becker vs Microair (I've ruled out Walter
> > Dittel on price... everyone has a limit independent of reason). There
> > seems to be a broad consensus that the Becker is a more reliable
> > choice. However, the Microair seems to offer a number of superior
> > features.
>
> > 1) Remote operation from a stick mounted toggle.
> > 2) Dual scan beteween the active and standby freqs with the ability to
> > transmit on the active. (Becker also offers a scan option but it seems
> > to be cover far more freqs and the freqs covered can only be changed
> > by turning the radio off and on at least twice. Dual scan seems very
> > nice when flying XC in the vicinity of an active airport.)
> > 3 Alpha descriptions of saved freqs.
> > 4) Variable squelch (Becker has this, but not without turning the
> > radio off and on at least twice to make changes.)
>
> > So here I am... The Microair costs less and has "better" features. But
> > who cares if it doesn't work?
>
> > What to do? What to do?.. I think I'll fly with the handheld!
>
> > What am I missing? I'm sure there are many cosniderations that escape
> > me.
>
> > Doug
>
> *- Statistically speaking I know *of THREE cases of Micro air radio
> having problems with transmitting once the radio gets warm - usually
> an hour into flight. The two Becker’s (one being mine) on the other
> hand seem to work flawlessly.
> So, save yourself the arse pain, spend little more and have a product
> that has a solid dependability record; it’s not like you buy one every
> year. Besides there is nothing more frustrating than your equipment
> not operative on that good day.
> Good luck.
>
> GK- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

... OTOH, just buying a Becker doesn't mean it will be trouble free.
Our club has purchased two Becker transceivers in the last 3 years.
Both have required return for repair in short order. Another club
member had to send his Becker Transponder back twice to get it to work
(turned out to be a cold solder joint). I went (for me) big bucks and
bought a Dittel FSG2T, which was also bad out of the box (Dittel
repaired it for free, of course). The Becker transceivers seem okay
after they come back from the factory, but IMO we should be able to
expect these high dollar bits of electronics to work reliably. In my
limited experience, 100% of the Becker and Dittel electronics were
defective (granted, I have a sample size of only four).

[Richard[_1_]]

On Aug 15, 6:56*pm, wrote:
> We have had a Microair on our plane. *It has never worked properly, in
> spite of two returns to the factory. *We don't bother anymore. 'Nough
> said.
>
> Cheers, *Charles


I sell both MicroAir and Becker Radios and Transponders. I have had
a MicroAir Rev N in my glider for 3 years with no problems, except a
Push to Talks switch that was corroded., no fault of the MicroAir. The
early MicroAirs did have problems mentioned above. MicroAir changed
hands several years ago and I beleive have been extremely active in
solving any problem they encounter with their products. I talked to a
customer yesterday that sent several Beckers his club had back to
Germany for repair. He stated he would never again buy a Becker
product.

MicroAir has a US service center Erie Aviation.

I think both radios are acceptable, the MicroAir is less expensive and
smaller.


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Brian[_1_]]

I have had a Terra 760D in my glider for the last 10 years. It works
great nearly all the time except when I fly in our soaring regatta in
Central Idaho. It has always recieved great but when I start flying at
High Altitude were we typically fly between 14,000 and 18,000 feet the
tranmission occasionally becomes unreadable. I suspect this is some
combination of the batteries getting cold (low voltage) and possibly
the radio itself not liking the altitude. After a couple years of
consistantly having trouble I performed my own informal survey. We
have up to 15 different gliders flying in these regatta's and the
after listening to different radios I determined that only the Dittles
and the Beckers consistantly performed well (with clear
transmissions) in this High altitude enviorment. This year I
installed Becker and am very pleased with it with everyone giving the
transmission quaility a thumbs up. I remember that the MicroAir
miserably failed my informal Survey and the ATR was suspect (due to
the pilot often failed to respond, I don't know if this was the pilot,
the reciever or the transmitter). I don't recall what other radios I
evaluated.

Brian
HP16T

[[email protected]]

Soar Truckee where I am based has Microair radios in their fleet of 4
ride gliders. They get used frequently and to the best of my
recollection they have not experienced any problems. I have a 2 year
old Becker radio and transponder in my glider. The radio will need to
be sent to the factory because of low modulation even after trying
several mics and turning up the user adjustable gain level in the
radio. The first time I turned on the transponder when it was
installed by a Becker distributor it started to smoke from behind the
display. The code selector switch, which I thought was a low voltage
device, melted and was rendered unusable. Becker replaced the
transponder quickly. Given the relatively high rate of problems in
glider avionics in general, my preference would be for the company
that provides the best repair service.

[Jim White[_2_]]

My first Becker went back. The second is fine if the volts are high. >12.5
I guess, but I cannot tell because the voltmeter on it always reads 15.1
(on 12V batteries). I would prefer not to buy another Becker. Surely
there MUST be a better alternative?

Jim

[Pete Startup[_2_]]

Buy an ATR500 from Funkwerk(ex-Filser) in Germany.
Reasonable price,excellent quality and IT WORKS FAULTLESSLY!

I too had an early Microair and have been scarred for life.

Pete

[Pete Startup[_2_]]

Buy an ATR500 form Funkwerk(ex-Filser) in Germany.
Reasonable price,good quality and IT WORKS FAULTLESSLY!

http://www.shop.funkwerk-avionics.com/english/

I too had an early Microair and have been scarred for life.

Pete

[Pete Startup[_2_]]

Buy an ATR500 from Funkwerk(ex-Filser) in Germany.
Reasonable price,excellent quality and IT WORKS FAULTLESSLY!

I too had an early Microair and have been scarred for life.

Pete

[Bruce]

Second that.

Went through all this tossing up - considered what was installed in other aircraft, and how they were standing up after
a couple of years. Considered the service available. Choice was Becker or Funkwerk.

Consequently:
Remove one by prehistoric power gobbling, huge, heavy,dual 360 channel King.
Lose 2.4kg in cockpit after installing one tiny light ATR500.

Pleasant Surprises
The fittings and wiring that come with the beast are first rate.
The instructions are clear - and correct.
The thing works as advertised - first time.
Reception is crystal clear.
Transmission is perfect - it has a function to tune the transmitter to the microphone. So my ultra low power LX electret
mike can now work from 10cm from my face.
It works down to pretty low voltages. I have not had it below 11.2 volts, but everything was still working at that point.
The dual channel function works well.
The squelch is automatic - and it works.
Power consumption is very low.
Limited experience is that hot (30+ centigrade at launch) and high (13,000 feet) are not problems.

Negatives.
The user interface is very logical, but some of the buttons are hard to reach accurately in my Std Cirrus, bigger might
have been better.
The display is quite readable, but a little cryptic.
You have to turn a knob and push a button for some of the functions. Beats the switch off+on alternative, but again in
the Cirrus the panel is an inconvenient stretch away...
Good part is that in general you only ever have to use the stored frequency knob to select one of the 9 saved channels,
and it is a good size. Everything else is pretty much automatic, or set and forget.

All things considered, I am happy enough with the Funkwerk (ex Filser) product to have ordered it's replacement ATR833
for the new toy.

For reference - fly with a Dittel in the Kestrel and don't like it as much. It is a slightly older radio (FSG2T), but
the ATR500 is far nicer to use == better.

Biggest advantage - I can now get two days power out of one battery , compared to three hours with the monster...


My 2c. worth - come over to the dark side - No amount of cheap is going to compensate for recreation spoiled by stuff
malfunctioning - rather skip a couple of luxuries or make some other plan and buy quality.

Bruce


Pete Startup wrote:
> Buy an ATR500 form Funkwerk(ex-Filser) in Germany.
> Reasonable price,good quality and IT WORKS FAULTLESSLY!
>
> http://www.shop.funkwerk-avionics.com/english/
>
> I too had an early Microair and have been scarred for life.
>
> Pete

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:39:59 +0000, Pete Startup wrote:

> Buy an ATR500 from Funkwerk(ex-Filser) in Germany. Reasonable
> price,excellent quality and IT WORKS FAULTLESSLY!
>
I fitted an ATR500 last winter and am happy with it, though I admit that
I usually soar with it off. I've had no problems with it. Its main
limitation is only 9 presets and the need to remember which preset has
what frequency.

If you want to label the frequencies and have 99 of them, consider the
ATR600.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Neal Pfeiffer]

Does anyone have any experience with the newer XCOM radio? I had a demo
at Oshkosh and it looked logical with reasonable performance and power
draw. It also has a repeater head, which would be nice for my
two-seater. Given all of the comments in this thread, its obvious that
reliablity is a key concern.

- from someone with an unnamed brand radio in for repair for that last
11 months, but that's another story -

...... Neal

Dixie Sierra wrote:
> I've decided to give up on my Avionic Dittel and buy new. It's been a
> good radio and has given many years of service, but I'd like some new
> functionality.
>
> Functionality is really at the heart of my dilemna. I've kind of
> narrowed things down to Becker vs Microair (I've ruled out Walter
> Dittel on price... everyone has a limit independent of reason). There
> seems to be a broad consensus that the Becker is a more reliable
> choice. However, the Microair seems to offer a number of superior
> features.
>
> 1) Remote operation from a stick mounted toggle.
> 2) Dual scan beteween the active and standby freqs with the ability to
> transmit on the active. (Becker also offers a scan option but it seems
> to be cover far more freqs and the freqs covered can only be changed
> by turning the radio off and on at least twice. Dual scan seems very
> nice when flying XC in the vicinity of an active airport.)
> 3 Alpha descriptions of saved freqs.
> 4) Variable squelch (Becker has this, but not without turning the
> radio off and on at least twice to make changes.)
>
>
> So here I am... The Microair costs less and has "better" features. But
> who cares if it doesn't work?
>
> What to do? What to do?.. I think I'll fly with the handheld!
>
> What am I missing? I'm sure there are many cosniderations that escape
> me.
>
> Doug
>
>

[Bruce]

ATR600 and ATR833 have a remote head capability.

I understand that if cheap is the requirement then the Microair or XCom may be worth looking at. Based on what I saw -
the eagerness of nearly every microair owner I met to move their radio on at an attractive price, caveat emptor...

Personally I find it impossible to remember what all the frequencies are - given there are 9 of them I program in what I
need if I move to a different location. We have relatively uncomplicated airspace so I have never felt a need for even
the full 9.

Neal Pfeiffer wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience with the newer XCOM radio? I had a demo
> at Oshkosh and it looked logical with reasonable performance and power
> draw. It also has a repeater head, which would be nice for my
> two-seater. Given all of the comments in this thread, its obvious that
> reliablity is a key concern.
>
> - from someone with an unnamed brand radio in for repair for that last
> 11 months, but that's another story -
>
> ..... Neal
>
> Dixie Sierra wrote:
>> I've decided to give up on my Avionic Dittel and buy new. It's been a
>> good radio and has given many years of service, but I'd like some new
>> functionality.
>>
>> Functionality is really at the heart of my dilemna. I've kind of
>> narrowed things down to Becker vs Microair (I've ruled out Walter
>> Dittel on price... everyone has a limit independent of reason). There
>> seems to be a broad consensus that the Becker is a more reliable
>> choice. However, the Microair seems to offer a number of superior
>> features.
>>
>> 1) Remote operation from a stick mounted toggle.
>> 2) Dual scan beteween the active and standby freqs with the ability to
>> transmit on the active. (Becker also offers a scan option but it seems
>> to be cover far more freqs and the freqs covered can only be changed
>> by turning the radio off and on at least twice. Dual scan seems very
>> nice when flying XC in the vicinity of an active airport.)
>> 3 Alpha descriptions of saved freqs.
>> 4) Variable squelch (Becker has this, but not without turning the
>> radio off and on at least twice to make changes.)
>>
>>
>> So here I am... The Microair costs less and has "better" features. But
>> who cares if it doesn't work?
>>
>> What to do? What to do?.. I think I'll fly with the handheld!
>>
>> What am I missing? I'm sure there are many cosniderations that escape
>> me.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>>

[Eric Greenwell]

Jim White wrote:
> My first Becker went back. The second is fine if the volts are high. >12.5
> I guess, but I cannot tell because the voltmeter on it always reads 15.1
> (on 12V batteries). I would prefer not to buy another Becker. Surely
> there MUST be a better alternative?

Sounds like your second Becker should go back, too; however, I suggest
you first swap it with a another glider with a same model Becker that is
working properly. That could tell you if the problem is the Becker or
the stuff in the glider that is causing the problem.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[GM]

On Aug 15, 8:18*pm, Dixie Sierra > wrote:
> I've decided to give up on my Avionic Dittel and buy new. It's been a
> good radio and has given many years of service, but I'd like some new
> functionality.
>
> Functionality is really at the heart of my dilemna. I've kind of
> narrowed things down to Becker vs Microair (I've ruled out Walter
> Dittel on price... everyone has a limit independent of reason). There
> seems to be a broad consensus that the Becker is a more reliable
> choice. However, the Microair seems to offer a number of superior
> features.
>
> 1) Remote operation from a stick mounted toggle.
> 2) Dual scan beteween the active and standby freqs with the ability to
> transmit on the active. (Becker also offers a scan option but it seems
> to be cover far more freqs and the freqs covered can only be changed
> by turning the radio off and on at least twice. Dual scan seems very
> nice when flying XC in the vicinity of an active airport.)
> 3 Alpha descriptions of saved freqs.
> 4) Variable squelch (Becker has this, but not without turning the
> radio off and on at least twice to make changes.)
>
> So here I am... The Microair costs less and has "better" features. But
> who cares if it doesn't work?
>
> What to do? What to do?.. I think I'll fly with the handheld!
>
> What am I missing? I'm sure there are many cosniderations that escape
> me.
>
> Doug


Doug,

I bought a used Becker AR3201 from Wings & Wheels more than 15 years
ago and it has been working flawlessly ever since. If I had to replace
it, I would consider a Becker again.
You want to pick a manufacturer that has been around for a while and
will be around for a while, too. Service/Repair facility network is an
important point, too.

Uli

[jcarlyle]

Both my Becker radio (AR4201 installed July 2000) and Becker
transponder (ATC4401 installed April 2008) have worked and performed
to my entire satisfaction. I would definitely buy Becker again!

I know there are folks who have had problems, but I think you'll
always hear about problems and seldom hear about good experiences. One
should also keep in mind that electronics problems in gliders may be
magnified since a lot of instrument wiring seems to be done by non-
professionals.

-John

[Bill Daniels]

"jcarlyle" > wrote in message
...
> Both my Becker radio (AR4201 installed July 2000) and Becker
> transponder (ATC4401 installed April 2008) have worked and performed
> to my entire satisfaction. I would definitely buy Becker again!
>
> I know there are folks who have had problems, but I think you'll
> always hear about problems and seldom hear about good experiences. One
> should also keep in mind that electronics problems in gliders may be
> magnified since a lot of instrument wiring seems to be done by non-
> professionals.
>
> -John

John is right. Reliability is more often the result of a good installation
rather than the basic radio.

I have a Microair and, as long as you feed it >11.5V, it works fine. Up and
down the flightline it seems that every radio brand has it's share of
problems. Gliders are a harsh environment for complex electronics. Be
thankful radios work at all.

Most often I note the problem is low battery voltage or bad power wires, bad
antenna connection, bad mike or mike wiring. Classic symptom: "Works on the
bench but not in the glider."

I do recall one problem with my Microair 760. At first there were
complaints of low modulation (strong carrier - weak voice). I increased
mike gain with a screw in the side of the unit and now have good modulation.
I think radios are set for use in airplanes where pilots are likely to shout
over engine noise. In gliders, we tend to speak softer so we need to set
higher mike gain.

[John Scott[_2_]]

I have a Mircoaire Rev N radio in my glider, purchased as a "Gllider Kit"
kit with mic, speaker, and wiring harness from Aircraf Spruce. It has
worked fine for me. Folks report my transmissions are clear and strong, as
long as my glider is not pointed straight at them (antenna in trailing edge
of rudder, most of which is carbon fiber). I mentioned it was specifically
a "glider kit" since the modulation has been fine.

Our club has another Mircoaire Rev N in a 1-26 that works fine, but has had
to have the mic gain adjusted.

If battery voltage is gets low, the transmission does seem to get garbled.
I fly with 2 batteries so I can switch a fresh one in late in the day if
needed to get good radio transmission.

John Scott

[Neal Pfeiffer]

When I asked about XCOM, it was not because of price. In fact in the US
the cost is on par with a Becker and definitely well above a Microair.
I simply wanted to know if others out there use them and found them to
be reliable.

As for ATR radios, the ATR720C in my Ka6E has worked well. The ATR57 in
my Ka6BR has not been reliable. Now the ATR57 in a friend's Elfe
appears to work well for him. My 57 was an early version and they may
be more problematic. Whenever I get the 57 back from the shop, I will
need to decide whether to keep it or trade it out. I do want to keep
the small package with a circular, panel mount.

...... Neal

Bruce wrote:

> ATR600 and ATR833 have a remote head capability.
>
> I understand that if cheap is the requirement then the Microair or XCom
> may be worth looking at. Based on what I saw - the eagerness of nearly
> every microair owner I met to move their radio on at an attractive
> price, caveat emptor...
>
> Personally I find it impossible to remember what all the frequencies are
> - given there are 9 of them I program in what I need if I move to a
> different location. We have relatively uncomplicated airspace so I have
> never felt a need for even the full 9.
>
> Neal Pfeiffer wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have any experience with the newer XCOM radio? I had a
>> demo at Oshkosh and it looked logical with reasonable performance and
>> power draw. It also has a repeater head, which would be nice for my
>> two-seater. Given all of the comments in this thread, its obvious
>> that reliablity is a key concern.
>>
>> - from someone with an unnamed brand radio in for repair for that last
>> 11 months, but that's another story -
>>
>> ..... Neal
>>
>> Dixie Sierra wrote:
>>
>>> I've decided to give up on my Avionic Dittel and buy new. It's been a
>>> good radio and has given many years of service, but I'd like some new
>>> functionality.
>>>
>>> Functionality is really at the heart of my dilemna. I've kind of
>>> narrowed things down to Becker vs Microair (I've ruled out Walter
>>> Dittel on price... everyone has a limit independent of reason). There
>>> seems to be a broad consensus that the Becker is a more reliable
>>> choice. However, the Microair seems to offer a number of superior
>>> features.
>>>
>>> 1) Remote operation from a stick mounted toggle.
>>> 2) Dual scan beteween the active and standby freqs with the ability to
>>> transmit on the active. (Becker also offers a scan option but it seems
>>> to be cover far more freqs and the freqs covered can only be changed
>>> by turning the radio off and on at least twice. Dual scan seems very
>>> nice when flying XC in the vicinity of an active airport.)
>>> 3 Alpha descriptions of saved freqs.
>>> 4) Variable squelch (Becker has this, but not without turning the
>>> radio off and on at least twice to make changes.)
>>>
>>>
>>> So here I am... The Microair costs less and has "better" features. But
>>> who cares if it doesn't work?
>>>
>>> What to do? What to do?.. I think I'll fly with the handheld!
>>>
>>> What am I missing? I'm sure there are many cosniderations that escape
>>> me.
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
>>>

[Wayne Paul]

"Neal Pfeiffer" > wrote in message
...
> When I asked about XCOM, it was not because of price. In fact in the US
> the cost is on par with a Becker and definitely well above a Microair. I
> simply wanted to know if others out there use them and found them to be
> reliable.
>
> As for ATR radios, the ATR720C in my Ka6E has worked well. The ATR57 in
> my Ka6BR has not been reliable. Now the ATR57 in a friend's Elfe appears
> to work well for him. My 57 was an early version and they may be more
> problematic. Whenever I get the 57 back from the shop, I will need to
> decide whether to keep it or trade it out. I do want to keep the small
> package with a circular, panel mount.
>
> ..... Neal
>

I have one of the very early ATR 57s. It set around the shop for about four
years while I was restoring my HP-14. When it was finally installed, it had
problems. It was sent back to the factory (not a inexpensive process) and
was upgraded.

As Brian mentions, there are times I miss transmissions if my squelch is set
too high and there is background hiss if it isn't.

Counting the ART 57's original cost plus the repair cost, I could have had a
new Becker and a few extra dollars in my pocket.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:16:47 -0600, Bill Daniels wrote:

> I have a Microair and, as long as you feed it >11.5V, it works fine. Up
> and down the flightline it seems that every radio brand has it's share
> of problems. Gliders are a harsh environment for complex electronics.
> Be thankful radios work at all.
>
Has anybody tried putting a solid state DC-DC converter in the Microair's
power supply?

Devices exist that can easily supply a constant voltage in the range
12-14v at whatever current the radio requires, even when the battery
drops to 10v. It seems to me that these devices could solve many of the
problems people have discussed on r.a.s when attempting to run
electronics designed for 12-14v off an SLA. The main drawback would
appear to be a slightly reduced battery life because the conversion won't
be 100% efficient. A side effect is likely to be that the radio will work
OK until the battery is completely drained, at which point it will
suddenly drop out; a voltmeter upstream of the converter might be useful.

As an example of what these converters can do, I installed a T&B about a
year ago. Its a powered aircraft type designed for a 28v supply which has
been fitted with a solid state DC-DC converter to step up the voltage. As
a result it runs happily off 12v.

Maxim sell a huge range of DC-DC converter chips for step-up and step-
down use. These handle currents of at least 2 amps: maybe higher, but I
haven't needed anything more so haven't looked. A low-power example is
the MAX666, which supplies 5v at 40 mA from an input in the range 2-16v.

Disclaimer: I have no connection with Maxim.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Bill Daniels]

"Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:16:47 -0600, Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>> I have a Microair and, as long as you feed it >11.5V, it works fine. Up
>> and down the flightline it seems that every radio brand has it's share
>> of problems. Gliders are a harsh environment for complex electronics.
>> Be thankful radios work at all.
>>
> Has anybody tried putting a solid state DC-DC converter in the Microair's
> power supply?
>
> Devices exist that can easily supply a constant voltage in the range
> 12-14v at whatever current the radio requires, even when the battery
> drops to 10v. It seems to me that these devices could solve many of the
> problems people have discussed on r.a.s when attempting to run
> electronics designed for 12-14v off an SLA. The main drawback would
> appear to be a slightly reduced battery life because the conversion won't
> be 100% efficient. A side effect is likely to be that the radio will work
> OK until the battery is completely drained, at which point it will
> suddenly drop out; a voltmeter upstream of the converter might be useful.
>
> As an example of what these converters can do, I installed a T&B about a
> year ago. Its a powered aircraft type designed for a 28v supply which has
> been fitted with a solid state DC-DC converter to step up the voltage. As
> a result it runs happily off 12v.
>
> Maxim sell a huge range of DC-DC converter chips for step-up and step-
> down use. These handle currents of at least 2 amps: maybe higher, but I
> haven't needed anything more so haven't looked. A low-power example is
> the MAX666, which supplies 5v at 40 mA from an input in the range 2-16v.
>
> Disclaimer: I have no connection with Maxim.
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

Good idea, Martin.

I've looked (not very throughly) for one that would output 13.8V (typical
regulated voltage in "12V" aircraft systems) from something like 6 - 18V
input. I'd like >95% efficiency but most are ~85%. It would also me nice
to have one with a low voltage cutoff on the input side that would prevent
damage to the battery from deep discharge.

I suspect most gadgets would work better with regulated voltage.

[Greg Arnold[_2_]]

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:16:47 -0600, Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>> I have a Microair and, as long as you feed it >11.5V, it works fine. Up
>> and down the flightline it seems that every radio brand has it's share
>> of problems. Gliders are a harsh environment for complex electronics.
>> Be thankful radios work at all.
>>
> Has anybody tried putting a solid state DC-DC converter in the Microair's
> power supply?
>
> Devices exist that can easily supply a constant voltage in the range
> 12-14v at whatever current the radio requires, even when the battery
> drops to 10v.


Does the Dittel FSG 2T have one of these? It is advertised to work at 9
volts, and my experience is that it continues to work fine even when the
voltage during transmission is below 10 volts (and the vario is going
crazy due to low voltage).

A point not totally unrelated to this thread -- I believe the FSG 2T
uses flash memory, and thus doesn't have an internal battery that will
have to be replaced. Do other radios have this feature?



It seems to me that these devices could solve many of the
> problems people have discussed on r.a.s when attempting to run
> electronics designed for 12-14v off an SLA. The main drawback would
> appear to be a slightly reduced battery life because the conversion won't
> be 100% efficient. A side effect is likely to be that the radio will work
> OK until the battery is completely drained, at which point it will
> suddenly drop out; a voltmeter upstream of the converter might be useful.
>
> As an example of what these converters can do, I installed a T&B about a
> year ago. Its a powered aircraft type designed for a 28v supply which has
> been fitted with a solid state DC-DC converter to step up the voltage. As
> a result it runs happily off 12v.
>
> Maxim sell a huge range of DC-DC converter chips for step-up and step-
> down use. These handle currents of at least 2 amps: maybe higher, but I
> haven't needed anything more so haven't looked. A low-power example is
> the MAX666, which supplies 5v at 40 mA from an input in the range 2-16v.
>
> Disclaimer: I have no connection with Maxim.
>
>

[Eric Greenwell]

Greg Arnold wrote:
> Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:16:47 -0600, Bill Daniels wrote:
>>
>>> I have a Microair and, as long as you feed it >11.5V, it works fine. Up
>>> and down the flightline it seems that every radio brand has it's share
>>> of problems. Gliders are a harsh environment for complex
>>> electronics. Be thankful radios work at all.

I suspect airplanes are worse than gliders; after all, there is no
vibration, no spikes on the voltage supply, and likely less heat under
the panel (no engine heat and less electronics producing heat). The
wring installation may be worse, typically. TSO'd radios have to meet
some very stringent electrical, mechanical, and environmental
requirements, so I expect them to work almost perfectly in a glider.

>>>
>> Has anybody tried putting a solid state DC-DC converter in the
>> Microair's power supply?
>> Devices exist that can easily supply a constant voltage in the range
>> 12-14v at whatever current the radio requires, even when the battery
>> drops to 10v.
>
>
> Does the Dittel FSG 2T have one of these? It is advertised to work at 9
> volts, and my experience is that it continues to work fine even when the
> voltage during transmission is below 10 volts (and the vario is going
> crazy due to low voltage).

TSO'd radios (like the FSG 2T) have been required to work in the 9-10
volt range (at reduced power output) for about 20 years. They may use a
DC-DC converter to achieve this, but I don't know which ones do. Some of
radios obviously do, such as the Becker 4401 transponder, as they have
wide range power supplies that also work up to 30 volts or so, while the
power input remains constant.

The Microair isn't TSO'd, so it doesn't have to meet this low voltage
operation spec (nor does it claim to), which likely explains why there
are reports of low voltage operation problems. It might benefit from a
converter, if it has problems above 11 volts.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[James Hamilton[_2_]]

At 19:18 16 August 2008, Wayne Paul wrote:
>
>"Neal Pfeiffer" wrote in message
...
>> When I asked about XCOM, it was not because of price. In fact in the
US
>
>> the cost is on par with a Becker and definitely well above a Microair.
I
>
>> simply wanted to know if others out there use them and found them to be

>> reliable.
>>
>> As for ATR radios, the ATR720C in my Ka6E has worked well. The ATR57
in
>
>> my Ka6BR has not been reliable. Now the ATR57 in a friend's Elfe
>appears
>> to work well for him. My 57 was an early version and they may be more

>> problematic. Whenever I get the 57 back from the shop, I will need to

>> decide whether to keep it or trade it out. I do want to keep the small

>> package with a circular, panel mount.
>>
>> ..... Neal
>>
>
>I have one of the very early ATR 57s. It set around the shop for about
>four
>years while I was restoring my HP-14. When it was finally installed, it
>had
>problems. It was sent back to the factory (not a inexpensive process)
and
>
>was upgraded.
>
>As Brian mentions, there are times I miss transmissions if my squelch is
>set
>too high and there is background hiss if it isn't.
>
>Counting the ART 57's original cost plus the repair cost, I could have
had
>a
>new Becker and a few extra dollars in my pocket.
>
>Wayne
>HP-14 "6F"
>http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder
>
>
>
I had a Becker 3201 radio and Becker 4401 xpndr in my Ventus for 6 years
(they are still there, I think, new owner). They both worked flawlessly
in all kinds of temperatures at altitudes from sea level to above 20K. In
both cases I spent a few extra bucks to have a professional make up the
wiring harness for me. Basically all I had to do was hook up two wires
for power. Also, a good antenna installation is a must. The Becker ran
on a 12 volt battery and I had flights up to 6 hours in length with the
radio going strong...xmit & receive (granted I don't talk much on the
radio). I got many comments from others about how clear and strong my
transmissions were heard over the air..."airline" quality.

JLH

[ContestID67]

On Aug 16, 8:18*am, Dixie Sierra > wrote:

> 2) Dual scan beteween the active and standby freqs with the ability to
> transmit on the active. (Becker also offers a scan option but it seems
> to be cover far more freqs and the freqs covered can only be changed
> by turning the radio off and on at least twice. Dual scan seems very
> nice when flying XC in the vicinity of an active airport.)

I might be wrong but I don't think that the Microaire has dual scan.
It has active and standby freqs but you have to manually toggle
between them.

Otherwise it has what you say that Becker has, scanning all the
channels in memory.

Here is a quote from the manual;

Mode Switch - Scan Mode - By holding down the toggle switch for 3
seconds, the M760 goes into scan mode. The programmed memories are
cycled quickly across the display. The M760 checks each memory in turn
for any signal. If there is no signal the radio moves to the next
programmed memory. When a signal is detected, the scan locks to that
memory to receive the signal. This memory is held for 10 seconds after
the signal finishes to afford the user an opportunity to reply on that
memory channel. The user can stop the scan operation by pressing down
briefly the toggle key, or the PTT button.

[Gavin Short[_2_]]

At 08:39 16 August 2008, Pete Startup wrote:
>Buy an ATR500 from Funkwerk(ex-Filser) in Germany.
>Reasonable price,excellent quality and IT WORKS FAULTLESSLY!
>
>I too had an early Microair and have been scarred for life.
>
>Pete
>

I have had the same experience with my ATR500 (purchased in Jan 07). Very
happy with it and the slim electrec microphone (both supplied by LX
avionics in UK).
Microair was an alternative but I erred on the side of reliability rather
than the cheapest.

Gavin
Std Cirrus, CNN now G-SCNN, #173
LSV Viersen, Keiheuvel, Belgium

[Dixie Sierra]

Must be new to Rev P.

I decided on the Microair. I don't know if I'll regret it... but I'll
sure find out. Cost was not the only factor, or even the deciding
factor, but it was a factor. With the money I'll save, I can buy a
PCAS (almost). There's at least one Microair in the local area that
seems to work fine.

6.1.2 Monitor Function
By holding down the remote memory button or toggle key for 3
seconds and then releasing, the M760 will enable the monitor
function. Both active and standby frequencies are monitored at
the same time for a signal. An ‘M’ character will oscillate up
and down to indicate that the monitor function is active.
A signal can be received on either the active or the standby
frequency. While receiving a signal on the
active frequency the standby channel is NOT monitored. While receiving
a signal on the standby
frequency the active channel is periodically monitored. If a signal is
found on the active frequency the
M760 will revert to the active frequency. After a signal has been
received the M760 will return to
monitoring both frequencies.
IMPORTANT NOTE
The user can only transmit on the active frequency. If the PTT is
keyed the
radio will transmit on the active frequency only.
Monitor mode can be cancelled by pressing the remote memory button or
toggle key briefly. The ‘M’
character is no longer displayed at the right hand end of the display.
If the mode key is pressed to move
to channel mode, the monitor function is dis-engaged.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Aug 19, 8:41*am, Dixie Sierra > wrote:
> Must be new to Rev P.
>
> I decided on the Microair. I don't know if I'll regret it...

I doubt if you'll regret it. Many of the early problems were caused by
poor contact between the microcontroller and its socket. Later
version used a better quality socket and the early ones can be made
fully function by following a service bulletin that improves the
contact with the original socket. It an easy fix that any electronics
amateur would be capable of doing. (A while ago Microaire prevented
public access to the SBs but I have PDFs if anyone needs one)

Thanks for the information on the dual scan mode. I don't have that
but it sounds like are useful upgrade.

I don't have to persuade you since you already decided on Microaire,
but I'd never want a glider radio that didn't have pilot adjustable
squelch level. It allows monitoring of safety calls from close
gliders while shutting off the distant chatterers. Break the squelch
before calling ground crew when out on course.


Andy