Magneto Timing Question

[Dick[_1_]]

The specs for my C-85 are upper plugs mag @ 28* BTDC and lower @ 30*BTDC.

My results are upper @ 30* BTDC and lower @ 32* BTDC.

I couldn't find a "flower pot" with attached degree wheel to borrow and
attach to the prop hub so used a little "mickey mouse" circular protractor
with a free swinging needle/pointer.

Two separate readings confirmed my 30-32. TDC was identified and impulses
unloaded before taking the readings.

My question is whether my results are acceptable for a low speed ,
experimental or need to be readjusted??

If need to be redone, I'd appreciate a little on why, please.

Thanks, Dick

PS: If listening <G>, I think "highflyer"(?) gave me some mag advice
during an "annual" a few years back which was appreciated.

[Orval Fairbairn[_2_]]

In article <IMJpk.70$482.47@trnddc06>, "Dick" >
wrote:

> The specs for my C-85 are upper plugs mag @ 28* BTDC and lower @ 30*BTDC.
>
> My results are upper @ 30* BTDC and lower @ 32* BTDC.
>
> I couldn't find a "flower pot" with attached degree wheel to borrow and
> attach to the prop hub so used a little "mickey mouse" circular protractor
> with a free swinging needle/pointer.
>
> Two separate readings confirmed my 30-32. TDC was identified and impulses
> unloaded before taking the readings.
>
> My question is whether my results are acceptable for a low speed ,
> experimental or need to be readjusted??
>
> If need to be redone, I'd appreciate a little on why, please.
>
> Thanks, Dick
>
> PS: If listening <G>, I think "highflyer"(?) gave me some mag advice
> during an "annual" a few years back which was appreciated.

Since you are probably using 100LL in an 80 octane engine, you are
probably just going to get a little more than 85 HP, with no damage.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 23:54:16 GMT, "Dick" > wrote:

>The specs for my C-85 are upper plugs mag @ 28* BTDC and lower @ 30*BTDC.
>
>My results are upper @ 30* BTDC and lower @ 32* BTDC.
>
>I couldn't find a "flower pot" with attached degree wheel to borrow and
>attach to the prop hub so used a little "mickey mouse" circular protractor
>with a free swinging needle/pointer.
>
>Two separate readings confirmed my 30-32. TDC was identified and impulses
>unloaded before taking the readings.
>
>My question is whether my results are acceptable for a low speed ,
>experimental or need to be readjusted??
>
>If need to be redone, I'd appreciate a little on why, please.
>

not sure of the C-85 but on the O-200 there are cylinders out there
made before a subtle design change was implemented that have a history
of departing the engine on engines with advanced timing.
my own engine has four of those early cylinders and so runs with
timing a little retarded from what it could be. (as per the AD)
if it need be done that may be why.

Stealth Pilot

[[email protected]]

On Aug 16, 5:54 pm, "Dick" > wrote:

> I couldn't find a "flower pot" with attached degree wheel to borrow and
> attach to the prop hub so used a little "mickey mouse" circular protractor
> with a free swinging needle/pointer.

There should be timing marks on the prop flange. They'll be
on the bottom when the #1 cylinder is at TDC, and you line them up
with the crankcase seam. Shouldn't need the other timing doodad, which
isn't all that accurate.

Dan

[Dick[_1_]]

yes there are timing marks. Unfortunately I can't access the case seam due
to nosebowl and air plenum sheetmetal that I'd prefer not removing.

So I guess my question still remains on difference between 30/32 and
28/30...

Thanks anyway, Dick
> wrote in message
...
> On Aug 16, 5:54 pm, "Dick" > wrote:
>
>> I couldn't find a "flower pot" with attached degree wheel to borrow and
>> attach to the prop hub so used a little "mickey mouse" circular
>> protractor
>> with a free swinging needle/pointer.
>
> There should be timing marks on the prop flange. They'll be
> on the bottom when the #1 cylinder is at TDC, and you line them up
> with the crankcase seam. Shouldn't need the other timing doodad, which
> isn't all that accurate.
>
> Dan

[John Kimmel]

Dick wrote:
> yes there are timing marks. Unfortunately I can't access the case seam due
> to nosebowl and air plenum sheetmetal that I'd prefer not removing.
>
> So I guess my question still remains on difference between 30/32 and
> 28/30...
>
> Thanks anyway, Dick

The correct answer as to why we like to maintain correct magneto timing in aviation is to prevent catastrophic engine failure such as
loss of cylinders, holes burned through pistons, thrown rods and other negative consequences of detonation. Is this answer clear
enough for you? Does it help that I'm an A&P? Why would you even bother to check the timing if you weren't going to do anything about
it except wring your hands and beg other people to tell you it's OK? Do you go through the same agony when your oil's low, or your
tire pressure's low? I can't believe that in the two days you've spent waffling over this, you couldn't find the time to loosen 4
nuts, rotate 2 mags, torque 4 nuts and make a logbook entry.

--
John Kimmel


I think it will be quiet around here now. So long.

[Dale Scroggins[_2_]]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
> In article <IMJpk.70$482.47@trnddc06>, "Dick" >
> wrote:
>
>> The specs for my C-85 are upper plugs mag @ 28* BTDC and lower @ 30*BTDC.
>>
>> My results are upper @ 30* BTDC and lower @ 32* BTDC.
>>
>> I couldn't find a "flower pot" with attached degree wheel to borrow and
>> attach to the prop hub so used a little "mickey mouse" circular
>> protractor
>> with a free swinging needle/pointer.
>>
>> Two separate readings confirmed my 30-32. TDC was identified and impulses
>> unloaded before taking the readings.
>>
>> My question is whether my results are acceptable for a low speed ,
>> experimental or need to be readjusted??
>>
>> If need to be redone, I'd appreciate a little on why, please.
>>
>> Thanks, Dick
>>
>> PS: If listening <G>, I think "highflyer"(?) gave me some mag advice
>> during an "annual" a few years back which was appreciated.
>
> Since you are probably using 100LL in an 80 octane engine, you are
> probably just going to get a little more than 85 HP, with no damage.
>
> --
> Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

Please reconsider your response. Detonation is not the only concern. These
old Continentals can built up of parts of unknown age, condition, and
history. Even when new, these engines didn't handle high cylinder pressures
very well. So even if the cylinder pressures are not high enough to cause
detonation with 100LL, they can still be high enough to pull cylinder base
studs out of the case, crack cylinder heads, hammer main bearings, and flex
or distort crankcases over time.

I'm not sure the OP's method for checking timing is accurate, but if his mag
timing is in fact 2 degrees advanced, it should be reset to the values on
the data plate.

[Dick[_1_]]

Thanks John but I was aware of the potential problems before you took the
time out to chew on me. Since you're wrong about "wringing my hands and
begging for an okay", I don't consider your being an A&P any help at this
time...

However since most specs have a range of values, I am looking for that
range.

"John Kimmel" > wrote in message
...
> Dick wrote:
>> yes there are timing marks. Unfortunately I can't access the case seam
>> due to nosebowl and air plenum sheetmetal that I'd prefer not removing.
>>
>> So I guess my question still remains on difference between 30/32 and
>> 28/30...
>>
>> Thanks anyway, Dick
>
> The correct answer as to why we like to maintain correct magneto timing in
> aviation is to prevent catastrophic engine failure such as loss of
> cylinders, holes burned through pistons, thrown rods and other negative
> consequences of detonation. Is this answer clear enough for you? Does it
> help that I'm an A&P? Why would you even bother to check the timing if
> you weren't going to do anything about it except wring your hands and beg
> other people to tell you it's OK? Do you go through the same agony when
> your oil's low, or your tire pressure's low? I can't believe that in the
> two days you've spent waffling over this, you couldn't find the time to
> loosen 4 nuts, rotate 2 mags, torque 4 nuts and make a logbook entry.
>
> --
> John Kimmel
>
>
> I think it will be quiet around here now. So long.

[Dick[_1_]]

Dale,
If OP means original poster, that is me. For the record, my timing is 2 deg
more advanced but still BTDC by 32 deg. After an A&P rebuilt and installed
my mags about 100 hours ago, I'm not sure if they were installed per the
manual spec 30 deg or the 32 deg I found by test recently. A different A&P
doesn't have a problem with it either way.

I any case, I am just curious about any range established per "rule of
thumb", experience or paracticality..

Thanks for taking the time to give your opinion.


"Dale Scroggins" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article <IMJpk.70$482.47@trnddc06>, "Dick" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The specs for my C-85 are upper plugs mag @ 28* BTDC and lower @
>>> 30*BTDC.
>>>
>>> My results are upper @ 30* BTDC and lower @ 32* BTDC.
>>>
>>> I couldn't find a "flower pot" with attached degree wheel to borrow and
>>> attach to the prop hub so used a little "mickey mouse" circular
>>> protractor
>>> with a free swinging needle/pointer.
>>>
>>> Two separate readings confirmed my 30-32. TDC was identified and
>>> impulses
>>> unloaded before taking the readings.
>>>
>>> My question is whether my results are acceptable for a low speed ,
>>> experimental or need to be readjusted??
>>>
>>> If need to be redone, I'd appreciate a little on why, please.
>>>
>>> Thanks, Dick
>>>
>>> PS: If listening <G>, I think "highflyer"(?) gave me some mag advice
>>> during an "annual" a few years back which was appreciated.
>>
>> Since you are probably using 100LL in an 80 octane engine, you are
>> probably just going to get a little more than 85 HP, with no damage.
>>
>> --
>> Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
>
> Please reconsider your response. Detonation is not the only concern.
> These old Continentals can built up of parts of unknown age, condition,
> and history. Even when new, these engines didn't handle high cylinder
> pressures very well. So even if the cylinder pressures are not high
> enough to cause detonation with 100LL, they can still be high enough to
> pull cylinder base studs out of the case, crack cylinder heads, hammer
> main bearings, and flex or distort crankcases over time.
>
> I'm not sure the OP's method for checking timing is accurate, but if his
> mag timing is in fact 2 degrees advanced, it should be reset to the values
> on the data plate.

[Dale Scroggins[_2_]]

"Dick" > wrote in message
news:2c2qk.130$p72.75@trnddc05...
> Dale,
> If OP means original poster, that is me. For the record, my timing is 2
> deg more advanced but still BTDC by 32 deg. After an A&P rebuilt and
> installed my mags about 100 hours ago, I'm not sure if they were installed
> per the manual spec 30 deg or the 32 deg I found by test recently. A
> different A&P
> doesn't have a problem with it either way.
>
> I any case, I am just curious about any range established per "rule of
> thumb", experience or paracticality..
>
> Thanks for taking the time to give your opinion.
>
>
<snip>

I can't give you a rule of thumb. I can pass along an informed opinion
developed over the last thirty years as aircraft mechanic, with several
thousand hours of that spent working on small Continentals.

1. You shouldn't run your timing more advanced than specified. Two degrees
is too much excess advance for your engine; 30 degrees advance is a lot of
advance for an engine that turns about 2,000 rpm most of the time.
Continental specified 30 degrees to get good performance at a cost in
durability. When I set mag timing, I'm happy only when it's within 1/2 a
degree. But I would worry if it were 1/2 a degree too much advance on a
small Continental.

If the mechanic who put the mag on set it right to begin with, then your
points are wearing faster than the cam rubbing block, and the timing will
continue to advance as you fly. And the e-gap, or internal mag timing, is
drifting too. If the timing shifted 2 degrees in 100 hours, you have
something wearing too fast.

How, if you could not see the prop flange markings, did you establish TDC?
Are you fully confident that the advance is 30 and 32 degrees? By the way,
if you can see the flange markings from the top, but not the bottom, you
could time the mags using a cylinder other than #1. The second A&P may have
doubts about your methods. How did the first A&P set the timing; could he
see the prop flange markings, or did he use a timing wheel? The wheels can
be inaccurate if improperly set up or if the pointer friction is excessive.

2. How old are your cylinder heads? Not since overhaul, not since cylinder
barrel replacement, but since the heads were new? Have they ever been
welded? How old is your case? How many hours total time? Who did the
overhaul, and what was the condition of the mating surfaces and bearing
journals? Continental hasn't made a C85 in quite a number of years, and
advancing the timing a couple of degrees, especially from a fairly advanced
setting to begin with, will result in significantly higher cylinder
pressures. Are all your engine parts up to that?

The questions I asked above would be questions I would have in making the
decision to reset the timing. But, in the end, I would probably use the
time-rite or timing wheel and recheck the mag timing. If it had any excess
advance I would reset the timing. If it had two degrees excess advance, I
would pull off the point covers and look at the points.

[Dick[_1_]]

Dale,
Thanks for the additional thoughts. Bottom line: I'll recheck my technique
and the points before "bumping" the mags.

Thanks again, Dick




"Dale Scroggins" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dick" > wrote in message
> news:2c2qk.130$p72.75@trnddc05...
>> Dale,
>> If OP means original poster, that is me. For the record, my timing is 2
>> deg more advanced but still BTDC by 32 deg. After an A&P rebuilt and
>> installed my mags about 100 hours ago, I'm not sure if they were
>> installed per the manual spec 30 deg or the 32 deg I found by test
>> recently. A different A&P
>> doesn't have a problem with it either way.
>>
>> I any case, I am just curious about any range established per "rule of
>> thumb", experience or paracticality..
>>
>> Thanks for taking the time to give your opinion.
>>
>>
> <snip>
>
> I can't give you a rule of thumb. I can pass along an informed opinion
> developed over the last thirty years as aircraft mechanic, with several
> thousand hours of that spent working on small Continentals.
>
> 1. You shouldn't run your timing more advanced than specified. Two
> degrees is too much excess advance for your engine; 30 degrees advance is
> a lot of advance for an engine that turns about 2,000 rpm most of the
> time. Continental specified 30 degrees to get good performance at a cost
> in durability. When I set mag timing, I'm happy only when it's within 1/2
> a degree. But I would worry if it were 1/2 a degree too much advance on a
> small Continental.
>
> If the mechanic who put the mag on set it right to begin with, then your
> points are wearing faster than the cam rubbing block, and the timing will
> continue to advance as you fly. And the e-gap, or internal mag timing, is
> drifting too. If the timing shifted 2 degrees in 100 hours, you have
> something wearing too fast.
>
> How, if you could not see the prop flange markings, did you establish TDC?
> Are you fully confident that the advance is 30 and 32 degrees? By the
> way, if you can see the flange markings from the top, but not the bottom,
> you could time the mags using a cylinder other than #1. The second A&P
> may have doubts about your methods. How did the first A&P set the timing;
> could he see the prop flange markings, or did he use a timing wheel? The
> wheels can be inaccurate if improperly set up or if the pointer friction
> is excessive.
>
> 2. How old are your cylinder heads? Not since overhaul, not since
> cylinder barrel replacement, but since the heads were new? Have they ever
> been welded? How old is your case? How many hours total time? Who did
> the overhaul, and what was the condition of the mating surfaces and
> bearing journals? Continental hasn't made a C85 in quite a number of
> years, and advancing the timing a couple of degrees, especially from a
> fairly advanced setting to begin with, will result in significantly higher
> cylinder pressures. Are all your engine parts up to that?
>
> The questions I asked above would be questions I would have in making the
> decision to reset the timing. But, in the end, I would probably use the
> time-rite or timing wheel and recheck the mag timing. If it had any
> excess advance I would reset the timing. If it had two degrees excess
> advance, I would pull off the point covers and look at the points.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Rip]

Dick wrote:
> The specs for my C-85 are upper plugs mag @ 28* BTDC and lower @ 30*BTDC.
>
> My results are upper @ 30* BTDC and lower @ 32* BTDC.
>
> I couldn't find a "flower pot" with attached degree wheel to borrow and
> attach to the prop hub so used a little "mickey mouse" circular protractor
> with a free swinging needle/pointer.
>
> Two separate readings confirmed my 30-32. TDC was identified and impulses
> unloaded before taking the readings.
>
> My question is whether my results are acceptable for a low speed ,
> experimental or need to be readjusted??
>
> If need to be redone, I'd appreciate a little on why, please.
>
> Thanks, Dick
>
> PS: If listening <G>, I think "highflyer"(?) gave me some mag advice
> during an "annual" a few years back which was appreciated.
>
>
Teledyne Continental has issued MSB94-8C-1. With rare exceptions (mostly
for turbo'd engines), the magneto to engine timing tolerance is +/- 1
degree.

Your results, per the manufacturer, are one degree out of specification.

Rip
A&P/IA

[Dick[_1_]]

Actually found my original technique was poor and was able to use Dales
advice of timing a different piston to the upper case split. Right on @ 30
and 28deg per spec. Thanks to all who advised.
"Rip" > wrote in message
...
> Dick wrote:
>> The specs for my C-85 are upper plugs mag @ 28* BTDC and lower @ 30*BTDC.
>>
>> My results are upper @ 30* BTDC and lower @ 32* BTDC.
>>
>> I couldn't find a "flower pot" with attached degree wheel to borrow and
>> attach to the prop hub so used a little "mickey mouse" circular
>> protractor with a free swinging needle/pointer.
>>
>> Two separate readings confirmed my 30-32. TDC was identified and impulses
>> unloaded before taking the readings.
>>
>> My question is whether my results are acceptable for a low speed ,
>> experimental or need to be readjusted??
>>
>> If need to be redone, I'd appreciate a little on why, please.
>>
>> Thanks, Dick
>>
>> PS: If listening <G>, I think "highflyer"(?) gave me some mag advice
>> during an "annual" a few years back which was appreciated.
> Teledyne Continental has issued MSB94-8C-1. With rare exceptions (mostly
> for turbo'd engines), the magneto to engine timing tolerance is +/- 1
> degree.
>
> Your results, per the manufacturer, are one degree out of specification.
>
> Rip
> A&P/IA

[Dennis Johnson]

The TCM shop manual for my IO-550 engine says to set the magneto timing plus
or minus 1° from spec.

Dennis

[Charles Vincent]

Dale Scroggins wrote:

> How did the first A&P
> set the timing; could he see the prop flange markings, or did he use a
> timing wheel? The wheels can be inaccurate if improperly set up or if
> the pointer friction is excessive.
>

I used to have a nifty device that installed into the plug hole on the
number one cylinder. It had a probe and a set of cards(each had marks
for several engines) that installed on it that would directly read the
cylinder position. The device was entirely mechanical and had a very
well made wooden box for a case. I inherited it and sold it years ago
since I wasn't likely to ever work on an R-2800 (most of the cards were
for big radials, but lycoming and continental were well represented as
well) I expected that it was probably standard kit for A&Ps

Charles

[150flivver]

On Aug 22, 7:58 am, Charles Vincent > wrote:
> Dale Scroggins wrote:
> > How did the first A&P
> > set the timing; could he see the prop flange markings, or did he use a
> > timing wheel? The wheels can be inaccurate if improperly set up or if
> > the pointer friction is excessive.
>
> I used to have a nifty device that installed into the plug hole on the
> number one cylinder. It had a probe and a set of cards(each had marks
> for several engines) that installed on it that would directly read the
> cylinder position. The device was entirely mechanical and had a very
> well made wooden box for a case. I inherited it and sold it years ago
> since I wasn't likely to ever work on an R-2800 (most of the cards were
> for big radials, but lycoming and continental were well represented as
> well) I expected that it was probably standard kit for A&Ps
>
> Charles

They're called Timerite and are still available but quite pricey.