Sec. of State Rice warns Russia about Bombers off Alaska [Archive]

Tiger

August 19th 08, 07:35 AM

Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska

Jonathan S. Landay | McClatchy Newspapers

last updated: August 18, 2008 07:53:59 PM

BRUSSELS, Belgium — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice Monday ruled out
accelerating Georgia's admission to NATO in response to the Russian
invasion. But she warned Moscow that it is playing "a very dangerous
game" by resuming Cold War-era strategic bomber patrols close to the
Alaskan coast.

"Russia is a state that is unfortunately using the one tool that it has
always used whenever it wishes to deliver a message and that's its
military power," Rice told reporters en route to an emergency meeting of
NATO foreign ministers set for Tuesday. "That's not the way to deal in
the 21st century."

With Europe divided between former Soviet bloc nations, which seek tough
measures, and major powers such as Germany, which is hesitant to
jeopardize significant business and energy ties with Russia, it was
unclear whether NATO would produce a robust response to Russia's
invasion of Georgia.

Russian forces Monday continued to move around Georgia with impunity,
and senior U.S. defense officials said they were troubled by
intelligence showing the Russians had deployed SS-21 ballistic missiles
into South Ossetia with a range to strike Tbilisi, the Georgian capital.

Rice said Russia has raised questions about its place in the
international community through the invasion and other actions,
including the resumption last year for the first time since the 1991
collapse of the former Soviet Union of air patrols near the Alaskan
coast by Tu-95 strategic bombers, code-named Bears by NATO.

"We've had Russian strategic aviation challenging in ways they haven't,
even along our borders with the United States, which I might note is a
very dangerous game and perhaps one that I suggest the Russians want to
reconsider. This is not one that is cost-free," Rice said.

She did not elaborate on a U.S. reaction to the flights, which have been
widely seen as an attempt by Russia, flush with windfall oil profits, to
reassert itself as a global power despite serious problems with its
military.

Since the flights resumed in August 2007, U.S. and Canadian fighters
have intercepted the Russian bombers and escorted them away from the
U.S. coast.

U.S. officials have previously attached little real significance to the
flights by the turboprop-powered Cold War relics, and defense officials
said Monday recent flights did not provoke concerns within the Pentagon.

Russian bombers also have made forays into neutral airspace near Norway
and over U.S. aircraft carriers in the Pacific.

Rice said, however, that the Alaska patrols and the invasion of Georgia
contradicted Russia's stated desire for political and economic
integration into the international community.

She charged that Russia's offensive deep into Georgia was aimed at
"undermining" the pro-U.S. government of President Mikhail Saakashvili
and crippling the impoverished nation by damaging and destroying vital
economic infrastructure.

"That is an objective that will be denied because Georgian democracy
stands and it will stand with the help of its allies around the world,"
Rice said. "Georgian infrastructure will be rebuilt. Georgia's economy
will be reinforced."

Rice said that NATO foreign ministers would consider measures to
reinforce U.S. and European support for Georgia's territorial integrity.
For its part, the United States is also sending teams to assess the
re-equipping of Georgia's U.S.-trained military, which was battered by
superior Russian forces, and to evaluate reconstruction needs, she said.

But she said the United States would not push to accelerate approval by
the 26 foreign ministers of plans for the admission to NATO of Georgia
and the former Soviet republic of Ukraine.

Instead, the ministers were expected to reaffirm that the plans will be
considered as scheduled at a regular foreign ministers meeting in December.

"We are . . . going to send a message that we are not going to allow
Russia to draw a new line at those states that are not yet integrated
into the trans-Atlantic structures like Georgia and Ukraine," said Rice.

France and Germany blocked approval in April of the criteria they must
meet to qualify for membership, citing Georgia's unresolved territorial
disputes and vehement Russian opposition.

Rice said the ministers also would reaffirm NATO's support for former
Soviet bloc nations like Poland and the Baltic states. Though now
alliance members, those nations have been deeply unsettled by what they
saw as a tepid Western response to a major step by Moscow to reassert
its influence over its former empire.

Rice is to visit Warsaw on Wednesday to formally sign an agreement that
will allow the United States to locate anti-missile interceptors in
Poland in exchange for bolstering the country's air defenses, a move
that has enraged Russia.

Finally, she said, the foreign ministers will reassess overall relations
with Russia, which has been seeking membership in international
financial institutions and closer ties with the European Union.

"Frankly, Russia can't have it both ways. It can't act in a way that it
did in the Cold War when it was the Soviet Union and expect to be
treated as a responsible partner," Rice said.

Nancy A. Youssef in Washington contributed.

McClatchy Newspapers 2008

korben dallas

August 19th 08, 08:43 AM

Tiger wrote:
> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska

this drivel is released entirely for internal consumption, considering
the upcoming election and stuff like that. outside of the usa rice have
no visibility whatsoever, which also applies to the entire neocon
clique. (it's like "stealth" technology, except that this one does work
:) way to render yourself irrelevant, good ol' usa! "rice warns moscow"
lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"

eyeball

August 19th 08, 03:38 PM

On Aug 19, 3:43*am, korben dallas > wrote:
> Tiger wrote:
> > Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
>
> this drivel is released entirely for internal consumption, considering
> the upcoming election and stuff like that. outside of the usa rice have
> no visibility whatsoever, which also applies to the entire neocon
> clique. (it's like "stealth" technology, except that this one does work
> :) way to render yourself irrelevant, good ol' usa! "rice warns moscow"
> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"

You live in Moscow, komrade?

korben dallas

August 19th 08, 04:24 PM

eyeball wrote:
>> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
>
> You live in Moscow, komrade?

this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))

live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live" there.
or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
lives in the usa.

i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on vacation.

[email protected][_2_]

August 19th 08, 04:33 PM

On Aug 19, 11:24*am, korben dallas > wrote:
> eyeball wrote:
> >> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
>
> > You live in Moscow, komrade?
>
> this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))
>
> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live" there.
> or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
> anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
> lives in the usa.
>
> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on vacation..

If it's so bad, why don't you leave? I'm sure someone of
your intelligence could find a good job in Moscow. Why anyone would
live where they hate is beyond me.

korben dallas

August 19th 08, 04:46 PM

wrote:
>
> If it's so bad, why don't you leave?

what do you mean "leave"? i work there. it's like going from home to the
office, you know. not everybody likes it, but that's just the way it is.
i like my work, and as long as it is the case i can tolerate the
backwards experience of living here. many people come to work to usa
from abroad, as your know. they consider living here as necessary evil,
something you have to tolerate.

> I'm sure someone of
> your intelligence could find a good job in Moscow.

today this is extremely attractive, considering the significantly higher
pay coupled with only slightly higher cost of life, and immeasurably
better standards of life in moscow. i'll definitely consider it when
i'll decide to switch jobs. i actually have a number of good offers from
there.

> Why anyone would
> live where they hate is beyond me.

you must be a billionaire... good for you. we, ordinary folks, usually
have to make some compromises in choosing where we work and where we live.

[email protected][_2_]

August 19th 08, 05:40 PM

On Aug 19, 11:46*am, korben dallas > wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > * * * * * *If it's so bad, why don't you leave?
>
> what do you mean "leave"? i work there. it's like going from home to the
> office, you know. not everybody likes it, but that's just the way it is.
> i like my work, and as long as it is the case i can tolerate the
> backwards experience of living here. many people come to work to usa
> from abroad, as your know. they consider living here as necessary evil,
> something you have to tolerate.

I'm sorry you have to subject yourself to such a sad
experience. You must live a sad, bitter life.

>
> > I'm sure someone of
> > your intelligence could find a good job in Moscow.
>
> today this is extremely attractive, considering the significantly higher
> pay coupled with only slightly higher cost of life, and immeasurably
> better standards of life in moscow. i'll definitely consider it when
> i'll decide to switch jobs. i actually have a number of good offers from
> there.

So, what's keeping you here among the unwashed heathens? I
mean, more money and better conditions....are you a masochist?

>
> > Why anyone would
> > live where they hate is beyond me.
>
> you must be a billionaire... good for you. we, ordinary folks, usually
> have to make some compromises in choosing where we work and where we live..

No, it's just beyond me that anyone would choose to live where
they hate. If you have the job skills to work internationally, I'd
assume that means you have the ability to pick and choose. If you have
"good offers" where you'd prefer to be.......

Dan[_9_]

August 19th 08, 05:57 PM

.... that if they don't play nice, we will hold our breath until we turn
blue!

Dan

Raymond O'Hara

August 19th 08, 10:31 PM

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
> ... that if they don't play nice, we will hold our breath until we turn
> blue!
>
>

and stamp our feet, don't forget the stamping of feet.

remeber the republicans have said that countries don't invade other
countries in the 21st century.

tankfixer

August 20th 08, 03:10 AM

In article >, says...
> eyeball wrote:
> >> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
> >
> > You live in Moscow, komrade?
>
> this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))
>
> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live" there.
> or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
> anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
> lives in the usa.
>
> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on vacation.
>

We can help you get to stay there...

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

Dan[_12_]

August 20th 08, 03:17 AM

tankfixer wrote:
> In article >, says...
>> eyeball wrote:
>>>> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
>>> You live in Moscow, komrade?
>> this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))
>>
>> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live" there.
>> or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
>> anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
>> lives in the usa.
>>
>> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on vacation.
>>
>
> We can help you get to stay there...
>

So how come he can afford to go visit Moscow annually yet can't
afford to move there? I think the fool is lying through someone's teeth.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

tankfixer

August 20th 08, 03:42 AM

In article >, says...
> tankfixer wrote:
> > In article >, says...
> >> eyeball wrote:
> >>>> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
> >>> You live in Moscow, komrade?
> >> this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))
> >>
> >> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live" there.
> >> or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
> >> anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
> >> lives in the usa.
> >>
> >> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on vacation.
> >>
> >
> > We can help you get to stay there...
> >
>
> So how come he can afford to go visit Moscow annually yet can't
> afford to move there? I think the fool is lying through someone's teeth.

Why do I suspect he works at Reed College....

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

korben dallas

August 20th 08, 04:07 AM

Dan wrote:
>>>
>>> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live"
>>> there. or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word
>>> "live" to anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life
>>> ever. nobody lives in the usa.
>>>
>>> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on
>>> vacation.
>>>
>>
>> We can help you get to stay there...
>>
>
> So how come he can afford to go visit Moscow annually yet can't afford
> to move there? I think the fool is lying through someone's teeth.
>

lol... this is probably the best one yet, folks! priceless!

you see how the bot's brain works: it has just a handful of concepts it
is programmed with, and it is absolutely incapable of thinking outside
that narrow box. you see, in this case this one got into an infinite
cycle on the concept of "affording" something. it now somehow thinks
that i can't _afford_ moving to moscow! where it got that strange idea
(i never mentioned anything like that) is beyond me. but i can assure
you that if i try to unloop the cycle, and explain to it that i can
really afford to move absolutely anywhere in the world, it will simply
short-circuit, reboot and then get itself into the same infinite cycle
again. this is how the brain of a typical well-brainwashed american
lemming works. the only good news here is of course that fortunately not
all americans are as hopeless as this one...

korben dallas

August 20th 08, 04:18 AM

tankfixer wrote:
>>>
>> So how come he can afford to go visit Moscow annually yet can't
>> afford to move there? I think the fool is lying through someone's teeth.
>
> Why do I suspect he works at Reed College....
>

lemme guess... could it be that you are receiving some instructions from
"the center" transmitted directly into your brain?

korben dallas

August 20th 08, 04:31 AM

wrote:
>
> I'm sorry you have to subject yourself to such a sad
> experience. You must live a sad, bitter life.

no, quite the opposite. you must be judging by yourself, while i'm
pretty capable of rising above the circumstances.

>
> So, what's keeping you here among the unwashed heathens? I
> mean, more money and better conditions....are you a masochist?

you see, my life is quite a lot more than "money and conditions". i'm
afraid you won't understand, not programmed to.

there's even a bit of charitable purpose of me being here. your see, as
i said before, usa today is like an neanderthal with a grenade. me and
people like me, by our very presence we kind of "average up" the general
iq of this backwards country, essentially rising it from the level of a
neanderthal tribe to the level of, say, fifteenth century village, thus
reducing the probability of that neanderthal pulling out the pin
inadvertently. many intelligent people come here from different parts of
the world with this specific thought in mind. so far the civilized world
hasn't found a better solution to the problem of usa possessing nukes.

but in any case, it is a lot more than that

> No, it's just beyond me that anyone would choose to live where
> they hate. If you have the job skills to work internationally, I'd
> assume that means you have the ability to pick and choose. If you have
> "good offers" where you'd prefer to be.......

as i said, i'll definitely do it at the first good opportunity. it is
not that simple, again. the very fact that i have to explain this is a
good indication that i'm trying to have a conversation with a not very
advanced (artificial?) intelligence... are you fimiliar with the
concepts of "family", "friends", "house", "ties", "getting settled down"
in some place? somehow i don't think so....

tankfixer

August 20th 08, 04:33 AM

In article >, says...
> tankfixer wrote:
> >>>
> >> So how come he can afford to go visit Moscow annually yet can't
> >> afford to move there? I think the fool is lying through someone's teeth.
> >
> > Why do I suspect he works at Reed College....
> >
>
> lemme guess... could it be that you are receiving some instructions from
> "the center" transmitted directly into your brain?

Don't you have a peace protest to attend ?

Have fun standing in the rain on Broadway I hope ?

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

Dan[_12_]

August 20th 08, 04:39 AM

korben dallas wrote:
> Dan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live"
>>>> there. or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word
>>>> "live" to anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life
>>>> ever. nobody lives in the usa.
>>>>
>>>> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on
>>>> vacation.
>>>>
>>>
>>> We can help you get to stay there...
>>>
>>
>> So how come he can afford to go visit Moscow annually yet can't
>> afford to move there? I think the fool is lying through someone's teeth.
>>
>
> lol... this is probably the best one yet, folks! priceless!
>
> you see how the bot's brain works: it has just a handful of concepts it
> is programmed with, and it is absolutely incapable of thinking outside
> that narrow box. you see, in this case this one got into an infinite
> cycle on the concept of "affording" something. it now somehow thinks
> that i can't _afford_ moving to moscow! where it got that strange idea
> (i never mentioned anything like that) is beyond me. but i can assure
> you that if i try to unloop the cycle, and explain to it that i can
> really afford to move absolutely anywhere in the world, it will simply
> short-circuit, reboot and then get itself into the same infinite cycle
> again. this is how the brain of a typical well-brainwashed american
> lemming works. the only good news here is of course that fortunately not
> all americans are as hopeless as this one...

Um, you told us in another thread Deems you couldn't couldn't afford
to move:

"you must be a billionaire... good for you. we, ordinary folks, usually
have to make some compromises in choosing where we work and where we live."

I doubt you are as you say.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

george

August 20th 08, 05:02 AM

On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska

As if that's never happened before.
Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
Unless Conny wants to start WW3

Rob Arndt[_2_]

August 20th 08, 05:07 AM

On Aug 19, 9:02ï¿½pm, george > wrote:
> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>
> > Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
>
> As if that's never happened before.
> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> Unless Conny wants to start WW3

Russia claims Georgian "provocation" for the invasion of that nation
and now Polish "provocation" with the missile deal in progress- making
them a Russian target.

Let's play that game and say Russian Bears around Alaska are
"provocation" and splash a few :)

Rob

Rob Arndt[_2_]

August 20th 08, 05:13 AM

On Aug 19, 9:02ï¿½pm, george > wrote:
> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>
> > Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
>
> As if that's never happened before.
> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> Unless Conny wants to start WW3

So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.

People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
anything of Slavic origin.

Rob

tomcervo

August 20th 08, 06:04 AM

On Aug 19, 10:17ï¿½pm, Dan > wrote:
> tankfixer wrote:
> > In article >, says...
> >> eyeball wrote:
> >>>> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
> >>> You live in Moscow, komrade?
> >> this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))
>
> >> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live" there.
> >> or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
> >> anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
> >> lives in the usa.
>
> >> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on vacation.
>
> > We can help you get to stay there...
>
> ï¿½ ï¿½So how come he can afford to go visit Moscow annually yet can't
> afford to move there? I think the fool is lying through someone's teeth.
>

Cost of living's higher in Idaho.

tomcervo

August 20th 08, 06:06 AM

On Aug 20, 12:13ï¿½am, Rob Arndt > wrote:
> People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
> negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations,

Rouge Nation? Wasn't that an 80's band?

Dan[_12_]

August 20th 08, 06:06 AM

Dan[_12_]

August 20th 08, 06:12 AM

Rob Arndt wrote:
> On Aug 19, 9:02ï¿½pm, george > wrote:
>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>>
>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
>> As if that's never happened before.
>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>
> Russia claims Georgian "provocation" for the invasion of that nation
> and now Polish "provocation" with the missile deal in progress- making
> them a Russian target.
>
> Let's play that game and say Russian Bears around Alaska are
> "provocation" and splash a few :)
>
> Rob

Erm, shaniqua? Did the Soviets shooting down U.S. aircraft during the
cold war stop the incursions into Soviet airspace? Do try thinking for a
change.

I have an idea, seeing as you think killing human beings is a
solution why not lie about your age and go join the French Foreign
Legion or German army since we know you don't believe in serving the
U.S. and you have lied to us many times you should give it a try. Maybe
you will get to actually do something brave for the first time in your
life. Just make sure you don't shoot yourself in the foot on day one of
small arms training.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

tankfixer

August 20th 08, 06:12 AM

In article <09eb4f53-09f5-475a-86a5-
>, says...
> On Aug 19, 9:02?pm, george > wrote:
> > On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
> >
> > > Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
> >
> > As if that's never happened before.
> > Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> > Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>
> Russia claims Georgian "provocation" for the invasion of that nation
> and now Polish "provocation" with the missile deal in progress- making
> them a Russian target.
>
> Let's play that game and say Russian Bears around Alaska are
> "provocation" and splash a few :)

Fortunately we never could be bothered to volunteer to serve so we are
safe from your delusions.

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

Dan[_12_]

August 20th 08, 06:13 AM

tomcervo wrote:
> On Aug 19, 10:17ï¿½pm, Dan > wrote:
>> tankfixer wrote:
>>> In article >, says...
>>>> eyeball wrote:
>>>>>> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
>>>>> You live in Moscow, komrade?
>>>> this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))
>>>> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live" there.
>>>> or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
>>>> anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
>>>> lives in the usa.
>>>> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on vacation.
>>> We can help you get to stay there...
>> ï¿½ ï¿½So how come he can afford to go visit Moscow annually yet can't
>> afford to move there? I think the fool is lying through someone's teeth.
>>
>
> Cost of living's higher in Idaho.

So is quality of life and legal system.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Rob Arndt[_2_]

August 20th 08, 06:49 AM

On Aug 19, 10:12ï¿½pm, tankfixer > wrote:
> In article <09eb4f53-09f5-475a-86a5-
> >, says...
>
> > On Aug 19, 9:02?pm, george > wrote:
> > > On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>
> > > > Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
>
> > > As if that's never happened before.
> > > Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> > > Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>
> > Russia claims Georgian "provocation" for the invasion of that nation
> > and now Polish "provocation" with the missile deal in progress- making
> > them a Russian target.
>
> > Let's play that game and say Russian Bears around Alaska are
> > "provocation" and splash a few :)
>
> Fortunately we never could be bothered to volunteer to serve so we are
> safe from your delusions.
>
> --
> Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
> Goode with Ketchup.

So working on a M-60 somehow makes you both a political analyst and
military strategist?

Dream on, Tinkerbell.

Everything on this NG is opinion anyway.

All you are doing in sitting on your ass and hoping resurgent Russian
military power/aggression will just go away.

Congratulations, you are now a Canadian or European ;)

Rob

Dan[_12_]

August 20th 08, 07:01 AM

Rob Arndt wrote:
> On Aug 19, 10:12ï¿½pm, tankfixer > wrote:
>> In article <09eb4f53-09f5-475a-86a5-
>> >, says...
>>
>>> On Aug 19, 9:02?pm, george > wrote:
>>>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>>>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
>>>> As if that's never happened before.
>>>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
>>>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>>> Russia claims Georgian "provocation" for the invasion of that nation
>>> and now Polish "provocation" with the missile deal in progress- making
>>> them a Russian target.
>>> Let's play that game and say Russian Bears around Alaska are
>>> "provocation" and splash a few :)
>> Fortunately we never could be bothered to volunteer to serve so we are
>> safe from your delusions.
>>
>> --
>> Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
>> Goode with Ketchup.
>
> So working on a M-60 somehow makes you both a political analyst and
> military strategist?

Well, you long ago proved writing a blog makes you neither an analyst
nor strategist, so who do you say something as silly as that?

> Everything on this NG is opinion anyway.

You poor girl, why must you pretend your opinion is better than
anyone else's?

> All you are doing in sitting on your ass and hoping resurgent Russian
military power/aggression will just go away.

All you are doing in sitting on your ass and hoping for a war between
anyone as long as you don't have to go fight it yourself.

> Congratulations, you are now a Canadian or European

At least he served his own country, you seem more interested in
serving a country you haven't even visited.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Vincent

August 20th 08, 02:44 PM

Jack Linthicum

August 20th 08, 03:12 PM

On Aug 20, 9:44 am, Vincent > wrote:
> Rob Arndt wrote:
> > On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
> >> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>
> >>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
> >> As if that's never happened before.
> >> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> >> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>
> > So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> > you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> > gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> > you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>
> > People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
> > negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
> > anything of Slavic origin.
>
> > Rob
>
> Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22
>
> That is what takes balls
>
> Vince

On the other hand we have people who are still alive to testify as to
the efficacy of shooting versus some other solution.

The Traveling Hunter

Grizzly Defense
What's the best way to defend yourself if you run into a grizzly while
hunting--or if a grizzly tries to run into you?

Nearly all authorities on the subject agree that the first two words
to memorize in this regard are "pepper spray." I'm fully aware that
some hunters associate pepper spray with politically correct, granola-
eating, New Age, tree-hugger crapola. "Just give me my gun," these
guys brag, "and I'll drop any charging griz like a sack of rocks."

Other hunters are less fanatical on the subject, but simply have
serious (and understandable) doubts about the efficacy of a spray can
to stop one of the largest and most dangerous animals in North
America. Doesn't it just make sense that a high-caliber bullet is more
potent, and more effective in a life-or-death situation?

It’s a reasonable question, and by no means should hunters dismiss the
power and value of their firearms, as we'll discuss later. But as is
so often the case when it comes to bears, the answer is more complex
than it might first appear.

Studies by biologist Stephen Herrero and others indicate that pepper
spray works on charging bears about 90 to 96 percent of the time. Mark
Matheny, a hunter who was seriously mauled by a grizzly several years
ago while deer hunting north of Yellowstone Park, and who subsequently
began a career devoted to bear self-defense and the manufacture of
UDAP pepper spray, explains how a mere blast of cayenne aerosol can
stop an angry griz:

"First, with a charging bear the loud hissing and billowing cloud
startles them, lessening or turning their aggressive intentions into a
state of surprise or even defensive evasion. When a bear hits the wall
of fog and breathes it in, his sense of smell is instantly shut down,
which confuses any animal. Chemically, pepper spray is an inflammatory
agent, an irritant, that gets into the bear's mucus membranes, causing
temporary blindness, choking, and difficulty breathing. In many cases,
they go off hacking and coughing."

For those who believe a gun is still a better bet to stop a bear,
Matheny adds:

"Some people think a .44 magnum or large-caliber rifle is going to
have the 'power' to stop a bear. But you're talking about a bullet not
much wider than a writing pen hitting a vital area. That's assuming
you even get a bullet off. Most times when someone with a firearm is
attacked, they don't get a shot off. You've got to get the gun up,
aim, and fire. With pepper spray, you can fire right from the holster,
putting up a wide stream, even a fog, of deterrent. You can respond
instantly and the likelihood of hitting the bear is much greater."

Another compelling reason for the use of pepper spray instead of
bullets is that many grizzly charges are not full "attacks," but are
only attempts by the bear to discourage and intimidate human
intruders. For instance, if you surprise a grizzly feeding on an elk
carcass (possibly your elk carcass), the bear might charge without
intending actual contact, its purpose being to simply drive you away.

Of course, for those who aren't expert at reading bear behavior, it's
fair to ask, "How am I supposed to know whether the bear means
business or is just bluffing?" Which is precisely why pepper spray is
a better alternative to a bullet in most situations. With the spray,
you can very likely discourage the bear without worsening the
situation or elevating it to an irreversibly deadlier level. If the
bear breaks through the spray blast, and you're an armed hunter, you
still have your gun as a last resort. But if a sprayed bear veers off,
the encounter is over. No one is hurt. Conversely, if your first line
of defense is a gunshot, and you shoot at the bear, the results will
almost always be more severe. If the bear was only bluffing, you've
now either killed or wounded a bear unnecessarily. Also possible is
that by wounding it you've turned a bluffing bear into a seriously
enraged one, intent on killing you. Another scenario: You shoot at an
attacking bear and--because they come so fast, unbelievably fast if
you've never experienced it, often catching you in utter surprise--you
simply miss. The bear is on you. What you missed with bullets you
could have easily hit with deterrent spray.

But aren't there times when you should shoot, or perhaps must shoot?
While pepper spray is generally considered the best primary, first-
choice bear defense, you wouldn't want to make the same mistake as the
hunter in Wyoming's Bridger-Teton National Forest who, when charged by
a sow grizzly with three yearling cubs, allegedly threw his high-
powered rifle at the bear and pulled out a can of pepper spray, which
by that time failed to stop the attack. The hunter was mauled until
his partner shot and killed the 475-pound animal. Later, from his
hospital bed, the hunter said he didn't want to shoot the bear because
he feared going to jail (for killing an endangered species) and losing
his hunting privileges.

The reality is, if a grizzly attacks, sometimes you have to shoot,
and, further, you would be foolish not to. That is why I think of
pepper spray as "the first line of defense, when feasible." If
there's no time to hit the spray button (and with the canister mounted
pistol-fashion on your belt, you can aim and fire from the hip in mere
seconds), or if you spray and the bear keeps coming, you have little
choice but to shoot. With a grizzly still far enough away to dissuade,
you can try a shot into the air or into the ground near the animal,
hoping the muzzle blast or bullet noise will stop or turn the charge.
But with a close, fast-incoming bear, don't waste time with a warning
shot. Aim for the deadliest point you can find. On a close-in,
charging bear, this will probably be the face or upper chest. Often
full-attack grizzlies lower their heads as they come in, so that's
about all you have to aim at. More than one Alaskan guide of my
acquaintance suggests aiming for the snout--a high shot goes into the
upper skull or even over the top, into the neck or spine; and if the
bear hops or you shoot low, you have a chance at the throat, chest, or
even a shoulder or leg, all of which can stop the animal, if only long
enough for you to aim and shoot again.

Although this is legitimate self-defense, it clearly is not a
desirable outcome. That is why Mark Matheny likes to tell hunters,
"Spray 'em, don't slay 'em." He points out that too many close-
encounter grizzlies are killed unnecessarily; which is not only bad
for the bears, but also for hunting's already precarious social image.
Long-time bear biologist Chris Servheen agrees, calling the
unnecessary killing of grizzlies by sportsmen nothing less than "a
threat to hunting."

In the end, the ideal is to protect yourself while sparing the bears,
whenever that's possible. --Anthony Acerrano

frank

August 20th 08, 03:19 PM

On Aug 20, 12:06*am, Dan > wrote:
> Rob Arndt wrote:
> > On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
> >> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>
> >>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
> >> As if that's never happened before.
> >> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> >> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>
> > So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> > you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> > gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> > you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>
> > People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
> > negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
> > anything of Slavic origin.
>
> > Rob
>
> * *"Rouge nations?" Max Factor? Cover Girl?
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Don't ask, don't tell...

You know the ones, just look at their dress uniforms.

Vincent

August 20th 08, 03:41 PM

Vincent

August 20th 08, 03:41 PM

frank wrote:
> On Aug 20, 12:06 am, Dan > wrote:
>> Rob Arndt wrote:
>>> On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
>>>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>>>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
>>>> As if that's never happened before.
>>>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
>>>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
>>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
>>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
>>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>>> People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
>>> negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
>>> anything of Slavic origin.
>>> Rob
>> "Rouge nations?" Max Factor? Cover Girl?
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> Don't ask, don't tell...
>
> You know the ones, just look at their dress uniforms.

or undress uniforms

Vince

Mark Borgerson[_2_]

August 20th 08, 05:12 PM

In article >, says...
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm sorry you have to subject yourself to such a sad
> > experience. You must live a sad, bitter life.
>
> no, quite the opposite. you must be judging by yourself, while i'm
> pretty capable of rising above the circumstances.
>
> >
> > So, what's keeping you here among the unwashed heathens? I
> > mean, more money and better conditions....are you a masochist?
>
> you see, my life is quite a lot more than "money and conditions". i'm
> afraid you won't understand, not programmed to.
>
> there's even a bit of charitable purpose of me being here. your see, as
> i said before, usa today is like an neanderthal with a grenade. me and
> people like me, by our very presence we kind of "average up" the general
> iq of this backwards country, essentially rising it from the level of a
> neanderthal tribe to the level of, say, fifteenth century village, thus
> reducing the probability of that neanderthal pulling out the pin
> inadvertently. many intelligent people come here from different parts of
> the world with this specific thought in mind. so far the civilized world
> hasn't found a better solution to the problem of usa possessing nukes.
>
> but in any case, it is a lot more than that
>
> > No, it's just beyond me that anyone would choose to live where
> > they hate. If you have the job skills to work internationally, I'd
> > assume that means you have the ability to pick and choose. If you have
> > "good offers" where you'd prefer to be.......
>
> as i said, i'll definitely do it at the first good opportunity. it is
> not that simple, again. the very fact that i have to explain this is a
> good indication that i'm trying to have a conversation with a not very
> advanced (artificial?) intelligence... are you fimiliar with the
> concepts of "family", "friends", "house", "ties", "getting settled down"
> in some place? somehow i don't think so....
>

Can you afford a keyboard with a working shift key?

Mark Borgerson

korben dallas

August 20th 08, 05:16 PM

Mark Borgerson wrote:
>> as i said, i'll definitely do it at the first good opportunity. it is
>> not that simple, again. the very fact that i have to explain this is a
>> good indication that i'm trying to have a conversation with a not very
>> advanced (artificial?) intelligence... are you fimiliar with the
>> concepts of "family", "friends", "house", "ties", "getting settled down"
>> in some place? somehow i don't think so....
>
> Can you afford a keyboard with a working shift key?

and how do you think i type question marks and quotation marks?
copy-paste from other texts?

Dan[_12_]

August 20th 08, 06:12 PM

Jack Linthicum wrote:
> On Aug 20, 9:44 am, Vincent > wrote:
>> Rob Arndt wrote:
>>> On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
>>>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>>>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
>>>> As if that's never happened before.
>>>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
>>>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
>>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
>>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
>>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>>> People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
>>> negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
>>> anything of Slavic origin.
>>> Rob
>> Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22
>>
>> That is what takes balls
>>
>> Vince
>
> On the other hand we have people who are still alive to testify as to
> the efficacy of shooting versus some other solution.
>
> The Traveling Hunter
>
> Grizzly Defense
> What's the best way to defend yourself if you run into a grizzly while
> hunting--or if a grizzly tries to run into you?
>
> Nearly all authorities on the subject agree that the first two words
> to memorize in this regard are "pepper spray." I'm fully aware that
> some hunters associate pepper spray with politically correct, granola-
> eating, New Age, tree-hugger crapola. "Just give me my gun," these
> guys brag, "and I'll drop any charging griz like a sack of rocks."
>
> Other hunters are less fanatical on the subject, but simply have
> serious (and understandable) doubts about the efficacy of a spray can
> to stop one of the largest and most dangerous animals in North
> America. Doesn't it just make sense that a high-caliber bullet is more
> potent, and more effective in a life-or-death situation?
>
> It’s a reasonable question, and by no means should hunters dismiss the
> power and value of their firearms, as we'll discuss later. But as is
> so often the case when it comes to bears, the answer is more complex
> than it might first appear.
>
> Studies by biologist Stephen Herrero and others indicate that pepper
> spray works on charging bears about 90 to 96 percent of the time. Mark
> Matheny, a hunter who was seriously mauled by a grizzly several years
> ago while deer hunting north of Yellowstone Park, and who subsequently
> began a career devoted to bear self-defense and the manufacture of
> UDAP pepper spray, explains how a mere blast of cayenne aerosol can
> stop an angry griz:
>
> "First, with a charging bear the loud hissing and billowing cloud
> startles them, lessening or turning their aggressive intentions into a
> state of surprise or even defensive evasion. When a bear hits the wall
> of fog and breathes it in, his sense of smell is instantly shut down,
> which confuses any animal. Chemically, pepper spray is an inflammatory
> agent, an irritant, that gets into the bear's mucus membranes, causing
> temporary blindness, choking, and difficulty breathing. In many cases,
> they go off hacking and coughing."
>
> For those who believe a gun is still a better bet to stop a bear,
> Matheny adds:
>
> "Some people think a .44 magnum or large-caliber rifle is going to
> have the 'power' to stop a bear. But you're talking about a bullet not
> much wider than a writing pen hitting a vital area. That's assuming
> you even get a bullet off. Most times when someone with a firearm is
> attacked, they don't get a shot off. You've got to get the gun up,
> aim, and fire. With pepper spray, you can fire right from the holster,
> putting up a wide stream, even a fog, of deterrent. You can respond
> instantly and the likelihood of hitting the bear is much greater."
>
> Another compelling reason for the use of pepper spray instead of
> bullets is that many grizzly charges are not full "attacks," but are
> only attempts by the bear to discourage and intimidate human
> intruders. For instance, if you surprise a grizzly feeding on an elk
> carcass (possibly your elk carcass), the bear might charge without
> intending actual contact, its purpose being to simply drive you away.
>
> Of course, for those who aren't expert at reading bear behavior, it's
> fair to ask, "How am I supposed to know whether the bear means
> business or is just bluffing?" Which is precisely why pepper spray is
> a better alternative to a bullet in most situations. With the spray,
> you can very likely discourage the bear without worsening the
> situation or elevating it to an irreversibly deadlier level. If the
> bear breaks through the spray blast, and you're an armed hunter, you
> still have your gun as a last resort. But if a sprayed bear veers off,
> the encounter is over. No one is hurt. Conversely, if your first line
> of defense is a gunshot, and you shoot at the bear, the results will
> almost always be more severe. If the bear was only bluffing, you've
> now either killed or wounded a bear unnecessarily. Also possible is
> that by wounding it you've turned a bluffing bear into a seriously
> enraged one, intent on killing you. Another scenario: You shoot at an
> attacking bear and--because they come so fast, unbelievably fast if
> you've never experienced it, often catching you in utter surprise--you
> simply miss. The bear is on you. What you missed with bullets you
> could have easily hit with deterrent spray.
>
> But aren't there times when you should shoot, or perhaps must shoot?
> While pepper spray is generally considered the best primary, first-
> choice bear defense, you wouldn't want to make the same mistake as the
> hunter in Wyoming's Bridger-Teton National Forest who, when charged by
> a sow grizzly with three yearling cubs, allegedly threw his high-
> powered rifle at the bear and pulled out a can of pepper spray, which
> by that time failed to stop the attack. The hunter was mauled until
> his partner shot and killed the 475-pound animal. Later, from his
> hospital bed, the hunter said he didn't want to shoot the bear because
> he feared going to jail (for killing an endangered species) and losing
> his hunting privileges.
>
> The reality is, if a grizzly attacks, sometimes you have to shoot,
> and, further, you would be foolish not to. That is why I think of
> pepper spray as "the first line of defense, when feasible." If
> there's no time to hit the spray button (and with the canister mounted
> pistol-fashion on your belt, you can aim and fire from the hip in mere
> seconds), or if you spray and the bear keeps coming, you have little
> choice but to shoot. With a grizzly still far enough away to dissuade,
> you can try a shot into the air or into the ground near the animal,
> hoping the muzzle blast or bullet noise will stop or turn the charge.
> But with a close, fast-incoming bear, don't waste time with a warning
> shot. Aim for the deadliest point you can find. On a close-in,
> charging bear, this will probably be the face or upper chest. Often
> full-attack grizzlies lower their heads as they come in, so that's
> about all you have to aim at. More than one Alaskan guide of my
> acquaintance suggests aiming for the snout--a high shot goes into the
> upper skull or even over the top, into the neck or spine; and if the
> bear hops or you shoot low, you have a chance at the throat, chest, or
> even a shoulder or leg, all of which can stop the animal, if only long
> enough for you to aim and shoot again.
>
> Although this is legitimate self-defense, it clearly is not a
> desirable outcome. That is why Mark Matheny likes to tell hunters,
> "Spray 'em, don't slay 'em." He points out that too many close-
> encounter grizzlies are killed unnecessarily; which is not only bad
> for the bears, but also for hunting's already precarious social image.
> Long-time bear biologist Chris Servheen agrees, calling the
> unnecessary killing of grizzlies by sportsmen nothing less than "a
> threat to hunting."
>
> In the end, the ideal is to protect yourself while sparing the bears,
> whenever that's possible. --Anthony Acerrano
>
>
>

What about the right to keep and arm bears?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Jack Linthicum

August 20th 08, 06:28 PM

On Aug 20, 1:12 pm, Dan > wrote:
> Jack Linthicum wrote:
> > On Aug 20, 9:44 am, Vincent > wrote:
> >> Rob Arndt wrote:
> >>> On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
> >>>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
> >>>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
> >>>> As if that's never happened before.
> >>>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> >>>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
> >>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> >>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> >>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> >>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
> >>> People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
> >>> negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
> >>> anything of Slavic origin.
> >>> Rob
> >> Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22
>
> >> That is what takes balls
>
> >> Vince
>
> > On the other hand we have people who are still alive to testify as to
> > the efficacy of shooting versus some other solution.
>
> > The Traveling Hunter
>
> > Grizzly Defense
> > What's the best way to defend yourself if you run into a grizzly while
> > hunting--or if a grizzly tries to run into you?
>
> > Nearly all authorities on the subject agree that the first two words
> > to memorize in this regard are "pepper spray." I'm fully aware that
> > some hunters associate pepper spray with politically correct, granola-
> > eating, New Age, tree-hugger crapola. "Just give me my gun," these
> > guys brag, "and I'll drop any charging griz like a sack of rocks."
>
> > Other hunters are less fanatical on the subject, but simply have
> > serious (and understandable) doubts about the efficacy of a spray can
> > to stop one of the largest and most dangerous animals in North
> > America. Doesn't it just make sense that a high-caliber bullet is more
> > potent, and more effective in a life-or-death situation?
>
> > It’s a reasonable question, and by no means should hunters dismiss the
> > power and value of their firearms, as we'll discuss later. But as is
> > so often the case when it comes to bears, the answer is more complex
> > than it might first appear.
>
> > Studies by biologist Stephen Herrero and others indicate that pepper
> > spray works on charging bears about 90 to 96 percent of the time. Mark
> > Matheny, a hunter who was seriously mauled by a grizzly several years
> > ago while deer hunting north of Yellowstone Park, and who subsequently
> > began a career devoted to bear self-defense and the manufacture of
> > UDAP pepper spray, explains how a mere blast of cayenne aerosol can
> > stop an angry griz:
>
> > "First, with a charging bear the loud hissing and billowing cloud
> > startles them, lessening or turning their aggressive intentions into a
> > state of surprise or even defensive evasion. When a bear hits the wall
> > of fog and breathes it in, his sense of smell is instantly shut down,
> > which confuses any animal. Chemically, pepper spray is an inflammatory
> > agent, an irritant, that gets into the bear's mucus membranes, causing
> > temporary blindness, choking, and difficulty breathing. In many cases,
> > they go off hacking and coughing."
>
> > For those who believe a gun is still a better bet to stop a bear,
> > Matheny adds:
>
> > "Some people think a .44 magnum or large-caliber rifle is going to
> > have the 'power' to stop a bear. But you're talking about a bullet not
> > much wider than a writing pen hitting a vital area. That's assuming
> > you even get a bullet off. Most times when someone with a firearm is
> > attacked, they don't get a shot off. You've got to get the gun up,
> > aim, and fire. With pepper spray, you can fire right from the holster,
> > putting up a wide stream, even a fog, of deterrent. You can respond
> > instantly and the likelihood of hitting the bear is much greater."
>
> > Another compelling reason for the use of pepper spray instead of
> > bullets is that many grizzly charges are not full "attacks," but are
> > only attempts by the bear to discourage and intimidate human
> > intruders. For instance, if you surprise a grizzly feeding on an elk
> > carcass (possibly your elk carcass), the bear might charge without
> > intending actual contact, its purpose being to simply drive you away.
>
> > Of course, for those who aren't expert at reading bear behavior, it's
> > fair to ask, "How am I supposed to know whether the bear means
> > business or is just bluffing?" Which is precisely why pepper spray is
> > a better alternative to a bullet in most situations. With the spray,
> > you can very likely discourage the bear without worsening the
> > situation or elevating it to an irreversibly deadlier level. If the
> > bear breaks through the spray blast, and you're an armed hunter, you
> > still have your gun as a last resort. But if a sprayed bear veers off,
> > the encounter is over. No one is hurt. Conversely, if your first line
> > of defense is a gunshot, and you shoot at the bear, the results will
> > almost always be more severe. If the bear was only bluffing, you've
> > now either killed or wounded a bear unnecessarily. Also possible is
> > that by wounding it you've turned a bluffing bear into a seriously
> > enraged one, intent on killing you. Another scenario: You shoot at an
> > attacking bear and--because they come so fast, unbelievably fast if
> > you've never experienced it, often catching you in utter surprise--you
> > simply miss. The bear is on you. What you missed with bullets you
> > could have easily hit with deterrent spray.
>
> > But aren't there times when you should shoot, or perhaps must shoot?
> > While pepper spray is generally considered the best primary, first-
> > choice bear defense, you wouldn't want to make the same mistake as the
> > hunter in Wyoming's Bridger-Teton National Forest who, when charged by
> > a sow grizzly with three yearling cubs, allegedly threw his high-
> > powered rifle at the bear and pulled out a can of pepper spray, which
> > by that time failed to stop the attack. The hunter was mauled until
> > his partner shot and killed the 475-pound animal. Later, from his
> > hospital bed, the hunter said he didn't want to shoot the bear because
> > he feared going to jail (for killing an endangered species) and losing
> > his hunting privileges.
>
> > The reality is, if a grizzly attacks, sometimes you have to shoot,
> > and, further, you would be foolish not to. That is why I think of
> > pepper spray as "the first line of defense, when feasible." If
> > there's no time to hit the spray button (and with the canister mounted
> > pistol-fashion on your belt, you can aim and fire from the hip in mere
> > seconds), or if you spray and the bear keeps coming, you have little
> > choice but to shoot. With a grizzly still far enough away to dissuade,
> > you can try a shot into the air or into the ground near the animal,
> > hoping the muzzle blast or bullet noise will stop or turn the charge.
> > But with a close, fast-incoming bear, don't waste time with a warning
> > shot. Aim for the deadliest point you can find. On a close-in,
> > charging bear, this will probably be the face or upper chest. Often
> > full-attack grizzlies lower their heads as they come in, so that's
> > about all you have to aim at. More than one Alaskan guide of my
> > acquaintance suggests aiming for the snout--a high shot goes into the
> > upper skull or even over the top, into the neck or spine; and if the
> > bear hops or you shoot low, you have a chance at the throat, chest, or
> > even a shoulder or leg, all of which can stop the animal, if only long
> > enough for you to aim and shoot again.
>
> > Although this is legitimate self-defense, it clearly is not a
> > desirable outcome. That is why Mark Matheny likes to tell hunters,
> > "Spray 'em, don't slay 'em." He points out that too many close-
> > encounter grizzlies are killed unnecessarily; which is not only bad
> > for the bears, but also for hunting's already precarious social image.
> > Long-time bear biologist Chris Servheen agrees, calling the
> > unnecessary killing of grizzlies by sportsmen nothing less than "a
> > threat to hunting."
>
> > In the end, the ideal is to protect yourself while sparing the bears,
> > whenever that's possible. --Anthony Acerrano
>
> What about the right to keep and arm bears?
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I understand it is the "keeping" that the difficult part

often called "The Tall Pig"

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.colusi.org/linked/photos/bear_flag.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.colusi.org/linked/html/photo/bear_flag.htm&h=322&w=510&sz=60&tbnid=_dtZGb0uOIYJ::&tbnh=83&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbear%2Bflag&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=3&ct=image&cd=1

Rob Arndt[_2_]

August 20th 08, 06:37 PM

On Aug 20, 6:44ï¿½am, Vincent > wrote:
> Rob Arndt wrote:
> > On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
> >> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>
> >>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
> >> As if that's never happened before.
> >> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> >> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>
> > So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> > you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> > gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> > you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>
> > People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
> > negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
> > anything of Slavic origin.
>
> > Rob
>
> Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22
>
> That is what takes balls
>
> Vince- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bad analogy. If hunter is US vs Russian Bear the gun is anything from
a .50 cal rifle to a 40mm Grenade launcher to a flame thrower.

Where is the vaunted USAF which is able to defeat any foe, anwhere?
Apparently not over Georgian skies but in hiding or under repair.

Same for US ground and naval forces- former has no troops to send
anyway as it cannot even manage Afghanistan nor Iraq nor US borders
and the latter would be ineffectual.*

Rob

* Bush won't even send a hospital ship to the Black Sea.

Dan[_12_]

August 20th 08, 08:32 PM

Rob Arndt wrote:
> On Aug 20, 6:44ï¿½am, Vincent > wrote:
>> Rob Arndt wrote:
>>> On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
>>>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>>>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
>>>> As if that's never happened before.
>>>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
>>>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
>>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
>>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
>>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>>> People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
>>> negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
>>> anything of Slavic origin.
>>> Rob
>> Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22
>>
>> That is what takes balls
>>
>> Vince- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Bad analogy. If hunter is US vs Russian Bear the gun is anything from
> a .50 cal rifle to a 40mm Grenade launcher to a flame thrower.
>
> Where is the vaunted USAF which is able to defeat any foe, anwhere?
> Apparently not over Georgian skies but in hiding or under repair.

Where is the treaty or pact that requires or allows USAF involvement?
For that matter, if you feel so strongly why aren't YOU volunteering?
It's easy for you to accuse servicemen of being cowards since you you
are safe behind your modem.

Tell us how USAF involvement beyond what is currently going on would
change things. Would it make you happy for the USAF to shoot down
Russian aircraft?

>
> Same for US ground and naval forces- former has no troops to send
> anyway as it cannot even manage Afghanistan nor Iraq nor US borders
> and the latter would be ineffectual.*
>
> Rob
>
> * Bush won't even send a hospital ship to the Black Sea.

It has been determined the Comfort isn't needed at this time, genius.
Turkey hasn't said she would allow the Comfort to pass anyway.

Are you aware the USAF is making several flights a day into Georgia
with relief? I guess that doesn't count because you'd prefer war.

Where are your heroes the Germans? Hiding under their beds?

For that matter, have you ever said anything positive about the U.S.
and when did you say it?

Amazing how someone who has never had to face any risk in her life
insults those who do it every day, isn't it?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

tankfixer

August 20th 08, 08:58 PM

In article <fba49d69-3a49-472c-a447-02211c5d9d00
@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, says...
> On Aug 19, 10:17?pm, Dan > wrote:
> > tankfixer wrote:
> > > In article >, says...
> > >> eyeball wrote:
> > >>>> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
> > >>> You live in Moscow, komrade?
> > >> this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))
> >
> > >> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live" there.
> > >> or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
> > >> anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
> > >> lives in the usa.
> >
> > >> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on vacation.
> >
> > > We can help you get to stay there...
> >
> > ? ?So how come he can afford to go visit Moscow annually yet can't
> > afford to move there? I think the fool is lying through someone's teeth.
> >
>
> Cost of living's higher in Idaho.

About a day's drive too....

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

tankfixer

August 20th 08, 09:01 PM

In article <284a5176-e895-4a2a-a622-0a39b7cea6b6
@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, says...
> On Aug 19, 10:12?pm, tankfixer > wrote:
> > In article <09eb4f53-09f5-475a-86a5-
> > >, says...
> >
> > > On Aug 19, 9:02?pm, george > wrote:
> > > > On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
> >
> > > > > Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
> >
> > > > As if that's never happened before.
> > > > Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> > > > Unless Conny wants to start WW3
> >
> > > Russia claims Georgian "provocation" for the invasion of that nation
> > > and now Polish "provocation" with the missile deal in progress- making
> > > them a Russian target.
> >
> > > Let's play that game and say Russian Bears around Alaska are
> > > "provocation" and splash a few :)
> >
> > Fortunately we never could be bothered to volunteer to serve so we are
> > safe from your delusions.
> >
>
> So working on a M-60 somehow makes you both a political analyst and
> military strategist?

It gives one a perspective you will never aquire.

You assume it's the only job I've ever had in the military.

>
> Dream on, Tinkerbell.
>
> Everything on this NG is opinion anyway.

Much of ill-informed and outright silly.

>
> All you are doing in sitting on your ass and hoping resurgent Russian
> military power/aggression will just go away.

No, I'm not offering stupid opinions based on incomplete and half true
news reports.
That is folly.

>
> Congratulations, you are now a Canadian or European ;)

And I would still be a better man than you ....

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

Rob Arndt[_2_]

August 20th 08, 09:17 PM

On Aug 20, 12:32ï¿½pm, Dan > wrote:
> Rob Arndt wrote:
> > On Aug 20, 6:44 am, Vincent > wrote:
> >> Rob Arndt wrote:
> >>> On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
> >>>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
> >>>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
> >>>> As if that's never happened before.
> >>>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> >>>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
> >>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> >>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> >>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> >>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
> >>> People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
> >>> negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
> >>> anything of Slavic origin.
> >>> Rob
> >> Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22
>
> >> That is what takes balls
>
> >> Vince- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Bad analogy. If hunter is US vs Russian Bear the gun is anything from
> > a .50 cal rifle to a 40mm Grenade launcher to a flame thrower.
>
> > Where is the vaunted USAF which is able to defeat any foe, anwhere?
> > Apparently not over Georgian skies but in hiding or under repair.
>
> ï¿½ ï¿½Where is the treaty or pact that requires or allows USAF involvement?
> For that matter, if you feel so strongly why aren't YOU volunteering?
> It's easy for you to accuse servicemen of being cowards since you you
> are safe behind your modem.
>
> ï¿½ ï¿½Tell us how USAF involvement beyond what is currently going on would
> change things. Would it make you happy for the USAF to shoot down
> Russian aircraft?
>
>
>
> > Same for US ground and naval forces- former has no troops to send
> > anyway as it cannot even manage Afghanistan nor Iraq nor US borders
> > and the latter would be ineffectual.*
>
> > Rob
>
> > * Bush won't even send a hospital ship to the Black Sea.
>
> ï¿½ It has been determined the Comfort isn't needed at this time, genius.
> Turkey hasn't said she would allow the Comfort to pass anyway.
>
> ï¿½ Are you aware the USAF is making several flights a day into Georgia
> with relief? I guess that doesn't count because you'd prefer war.
>
> ï¿½ Where are your heroes the Germans? Hiding under their beds?
>
> ï¿½ For that matter, have you ever said anything positive about the U.S.
> and when did you say it?
>
> ï¿½ Amazing how someone who has never had to face any risk in her life
> insults those who do it every day, isn't it?
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

A single C-17 does not qualify as any real relief effort, nor a C-9...

Stop making excuses...

Rob

Rob Arndt[_2_]

August 20th 08, 09:18 PM

On Aug 20, 1:01ï¿½pm, tankfixer > wrote:
> In article <284a5176-e895-4a2a-a622-0a39b7cea6b6
> @d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 19, 10:12?pm, tankfixer > wrote:
> > > In article <09eb4f53-09f5-475a-86a5-
> > > >, says...
>
> > > > On Aug 19, 9:02?pm, george > wrote:
> > > > > On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>
> > > > > > Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
>
> > > > > As if that's never happened before.
> > > > > Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> > > > > Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>
> > > > Russia claims Georgian "provocation" for the invasion of that nation
> > > > and now Polish "provocation" with the missile deal in progress- making
> > > > them a Russian target.
>
> > > > Let's play that game and say Russian Bears around Alaska are
> > > > "provocation" and splash a few :)
>
> > > Fortunately we never could be bothered to volunteer to serve so we are
> > > safe from your delusions.
>
> > So working on a M-60 somehow makes you both a political analyst and
> > military strategist?
>
> It gives one a perspective you will never aquire.
>
> You assume it's the only job I've ever had in the military.
>
>
>
> > Dream on, Tinkerbell.
>
> > Everything on this NG is opinion anyway.
>
> Much of ill-informed and outright silly.
>
>
>
> > All you are doing in sitting on your ass and hoping resurgent Russian
> > military power/aggression will just go away.
>
> No, I'm not offering stupid opinions based on incomplete and half true
> news reports.
> That is folly.
>
>
>
> > Congratulations, you are now a Canadian or European ;)
>
> And I would still be a better man than you ....
>
> --
> Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
> Goode with Ketchup.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Says you- from the safety of your trailer or a basement...

Rob

tankfixer

August 20th 08, 09:23 PM

In article <f492d803-788b-4aa6-b6cd-41039cf3c694
@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, says...
> On Aug 20, 1:12 pm, Dan > wrote:
> > Jack Linthicum wrote:
> > > On Aug 20, 9:44 am, Vincent > wrote:
> > >> Rob Arndt wrote:
> > >>> On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
> > >>>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
> > >>>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
> > >>>> As if that's never happened before.
> > >>>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> > >>>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
> > >>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> > >>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> > >>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> > >>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
> > >>> People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
> > >>> negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
> > >>> anything of Slavic origin.
> > >>> Rob
> > >> Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22
> >
> > >> That is what takes balls
> >
> > >> Vince
> >
> > > On the other hand we have people who are still alive to testify as to
> > > the efficacy of shooting versus some other solution.
> >
> > > The Traveling Hunter
> >
> > > Grizzly Defense
> > > What's the best way to defend yourself if you run into a grizzly while
> > > hunting--or if a grizzly tries to run into you?
> >
> > > Nearly all authorities on the subject agree that the first two words
> > > to memorize in this regard are "pepper spray." I'm fully aware that
> > > some hunters associate pepper spray with politically correct, granola-
> > > eating, New Age, tree-hugger crapola. "Just give me my gun," these
> > > guys brag, "and I'll drop any charging griz like a sack of rocks."
> >
> > > Other hunters are less fanatical on the subject, but simply have
> > > serious (and understandable) doubts about the efficacy of a spray can
> > > to stop one of the largest and most dangerous animals in North
> > > America. Doesn't it just make sense that a high-caliber bullet is more
> > > potent, and more effective in a life-or-death situation?
> >
> > > It?s a reasonable question, and by no means should hunters dismiss the
> > > power and value of their firearms, as we'll discuss later. But as is
> > > so often the case when it comes to bears, the answer is more complex
> > > than it might first appear.
> >
> > > Studies by biologist Stephen Herrero and others indicate that pepper
> > > spray works on charging bears about 90 to 96 percent of the time. Mark
> > > Matheny, a hunter who was seriously mauled by a grizzly several years
> > > ago while deer hunting north of Yellowstone Park, and who subsequently
> > > began a career devoted to bear self-defense and the manufacture of
> > > UDAP pepper spray, explains how a mere blast of cayenne aerosol can
> > > stop an angry griz:
> >
> > > "First, with a charging bear the loud hissing and billowing cloud
> > > startles them, lessening or turning their aggressive intentions into a
> > > state of surprise or even defensive evasion. When a bear hits the wall
> > > of fog and breathes it in, his sense of smell is instantly shut down,
> > > which confuses any animal. Chemically, pepper spray is an inflammatory
> > > agent, an irritant, that gets into the bear's mucus membranes, causing
> > > temporary blindness, choking, and difficulty breathing. In many cases,
> > > they go off hacking and coughing."
> >
> > > For those who believe a gun is still a better bet to stop a bear,
> > > Matheny adds:
> >
> > > "Some people think a .44 magnum or large-caliber rifle is going to
> > > have the 'power' to stop a bear. But you're talking about a bullet not
> > > much wider than a writing pen hitting a vital area. That's assuming
> > > you even get a bullet off. Most times when someone with a firearm is
> > > attacked, they don't get a shot off. You've got to get the gun up,
> > > aim, and fire. With pepper spray, you can fire right from the holster,
> > > putting up a wide stream, even a fog, of deterrent. You can respond
> > > instantly and the likelihood of hitting the bear is much greater."
> >
> > > Another compelling reason for the use of pepper spray instead of
> > > bullets is that many grizzly charges are not full "attacks," but are
> > > only attempts by the bear to discourage and intimidate human
> > > intruders. For instance, if you surprise a grizzly feeding on an elk
> > > carcass (possibly your elk carcass), the bear might charge without
> > > intending actual contact, its purpose being to simply drive you away.
> >
> > > Of course, for those who aren't expert at reading bear behavior, it's
> > > fair to ask, "How am I supposed to know whether the bear means
> > > business or is just bluffing?" Which is precisely why pepper spray is
> > > a better alternative to a bullet in most situations. With the spray,
> > > you can very likely discourage the bear without worsening the
> > > situation or elevating it to an irreversibly deadlier level. If the
> > > bear breaks through the spray blast, and you're an armed hunter, you
> > > still have your gun as a last resort. But if a sprayed bear veers off,
> > > the encounter is over. No one is hurt. Conversely, if your first line
> > > of defense is a gunshot, and you shoot at the bear, the results will
> > > almost always be more severe. If the bear was only bluffing, you've
> > > now either killed or wounded a bear unnecessarily. Also possible is
> > > that by wounding it you've turned a bluffing bear into a seriously
> > > enraged one, intent on killing you. Another scenario: You shoot at an
> > > attacking bear and--because they come so fast, unbelievably fast if
> > > you've never experienced it, often catching you in utter surprise--you
> > > simply miss. The bear is on you. What you missed with bullets you
> > > could have easily hit with deterrent spray.
> >
> > > But aren't there times when you should shoot, or perhaps must shoot?
> > > While pepper spray is generally considered the best primary, first-
> > > choice bear defense, you wouldn't want to make the same mistake as the
> > > hunter in Wyoming's Bridger-Teton National Forest who, when charged by
> > > a sow grizzly with three yearling cubs, allegedly threw his high-
> > > powered rifle at the bear and pulled out a can of pepper spray, which
> > > by that time failed to stop the attack. The hunter was mauled until
> > > his partner shot and killed the 475-pound animal. Later, from his
> > > hospital bed, the hunter said he didn't want to shoot the bear because
> > > he feared going to jail (for killing an endangered species) and losing
> > > his hunting privileges.
> >
> > > The reality is, if a grizzly attacks, sometimes you have to shoot,
> > > and, further, you would be foolish not to. That is why I think of
> > > pepper spray as "the first line of defense, when feasible." If
> > > there's no time to hit the spray button (and with the canister mounted
> > > pistol-fashion on your belt, you can aim and fire from the hip in mere
> > > seconds), or if you spray and the bear keeps coming, you have little
> > > choice but to shoot. With a grizzly still far enough away to dissuade,
> > > you can try a shot into the air or into the ground near the animal,
> > > hoping the muzzle blast or bullet noise will stop or turn the charge.
> > > But with a close, fast-incoming bear, don't waste time with a warning
> > > shot. Aim for the deadliest point you can find. On a close-in,
> > > charging bear, this will probably be the face or upper chest. Often
> > > full-attack grizzlies lower their heads as they come in, so that's
> > > about all you have to aim at. More than one Alaskan guide of my
> > > acquaintance suggests aiming for the snout--a high shot goes into the
> > > upper skull or even over the top, into the neck or spine; and if the
> > > bear hops or you shoot low, you have a chance at the throat, chest, or
> > > even a shoulder or leg, all of which can stop the animal, if only long
> > > enough for you to aim and shoot again.
> >
> > > Although this is legitimate self-defense, it clearly is not a
> > > desirable outcome. That is why Mark Matheny likes to tell hunters,
> > > "Spray 'em, don't slay 'em." He points out that too many close-
> > > encounter grizzlies are killed unnecessarily; which is not only bad
> > > for the bears, but also for hunting's already precarious social image..
> > > Long-time bear biologist Chris Servheen agrees, calling the
> > > unnecessary killing of grizzlies by sportsmen nothing less than "a
> > > threat to hunting."
> >
> > > In the end, the ideal is to protect yourself while sparing the bears,
> > > whenever that's possible. --Anthony Acerrano
> >
> > What about the right to keep and arm bears?
> >
> > Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> I understand it is the "keeping" that the difficult part

They lay nicely in front of the fireplace....

>
> often called "The Tall Pig"
>
> http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.colusi.org/linked/photos/bear_flag.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.colusi.org/linked/html/photo/bear_flag.htm&h=322&w=510&sz=60&tbnid=_dtZGb0uOIYJ::&tbnh=83&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbear%2Bflag&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=3&ct=image&cd=1
>

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

tankfixer

August 20th 08, 09:23 PM

In article <51af37c0-b1a4-41df-82f2-
>, says...
> On Aug 20, 6:44?am, Vincent > wrote:
> > Rob Arndt wrote:
> > > On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
> > >> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
> >
> > >>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
> > >> As if that's never happened before.
> > >> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> > >> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
> >
> > > So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> > > you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> > > gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> > > you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
> >
> > > People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
> > > negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
> > > anything of Slavic origin.
> >
> > > Rob
> >
> > Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22
> >
> > That is what takes balls
> >
> > Vince- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Bad analogy. If hunter is US vs Russian Bear the gun is anything from
> a .50 cal rifle to a 40mm Grenade launcher to a flame thrower.
>
> Where is the vaunted USAF which is able to defeat any foe, anwhere?
> Apparently not over Georgian skies but in hiding or under repair.
>
> Same for US ground and naval forces- former has no troops to send
> anyway as it cannot even manage Afghanistan nor Iraq nor US borders
> and the latter would be ineffectual.*

Why is it there were more non-combat deaths in Iraq last month than ones
resulting from combat ?

As for naval forces why don't you tell us why they would be ineffectual
?

>
> Rob
>
> * Bush won't even send a hospital ship to the Black Sea.

rather dishonest of you to make the accusation
Turkey is reluctant to let it pass and it would not arrive for serveral
weeks as it is.

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

tankfixer

August 20th 08, 09:23 PM

In article >,
says...
> In article >, says...
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm sorry you have to subject yourself to such a sad
> > > experience. You must live a sad, bitter life.
> >
> > no, quite the opposite. you must be judging by yourself, while i'm
> > pretty capable of rising above the circumstances.
> >
> > >
> > > So, what's keeping you here among the unwashed heathens? I
> > > mean, more money and better conditions....are you a masochist?
> >
> > you see, my life is quite a lot more than "money and conditions". i'm
> > afraid you won't understand, not programmed to.
> >
> > there's even a bit of charitable purpose of me being here. your see, as
> > i said before, usa today is like an neanderthal with a grenade. me and
> > people like me, by our very presence we kind of "average up" the general
> > iq of this backwards country, essentially rising it from the level of a
> > neanderthal tribe to the level of, say, fifteenth century village, thus
> > reducing the probability of that neanderthal pulling out the pin
> > inadvertently. many intelligent people come here from different parts of
> > the world with this specific thought in mind. so far the civilized world
> > hasn't found a better solution to the problem of usa possessing nukes.
> >
> > but in any case, it is a lot more than that
> >
> > > No, it's just beyond me that anyone would choose to live where
> > > they hate. If you have the job skills to work internationally, I'd
> > > assume that means you have the ability to pick and choose. If you have
> > > "good offers" where you'd prefer to be.......
> >
> > as i said, i'll definitely do it at the first good opportunity. it is
> > not that simple, again. the very fact that i have to explain this is a
> > good indication that i'm trying to have a conversation with a not very
> > advanced (artificial?) intelligence... are you fimiliar with the
> > concepts of "family", "friends", "house", "ties", "getting settled down"
> > in some place? somehow i don't think so....
> >
>
> Can you afford a keyboard with a working shift key?

That assumes it is smart enough to know how to use it.

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

tankfixer

August 20th 08, 09:26 PM

In article <78e81164-22b5-4cce-9c65-
>, says...
> On Aug 20, 12:32?pm, Dan > wrote:
> > Rob Arndt wrote:
> > > On Aug 20, 6:44 am, Vincent > wrote:
> > >> Rob Arndt wrote:
> > >>> On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
> > >>>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
> > >>>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
> > >>>> As if that's never happened before.
> > >>>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> > >>>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
> > >>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> > >>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> > >>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> > >>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
> > >>> People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
> > >>> negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
> > >>> anything of Slavic origin.
> > >>> Rob
> > >> Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22
> >
> > >> That is what takes balls
> >
> > >> Vince- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > >> - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > Bad analogy. If hunter is US vs Russian Bear the gun is anything from
> > > a .50 cal rifle to a 40mm Grenade launcher to a flame thrower.
> >
> > > Where is the vaunted USAF which is able to defeat any foe, anwhere?
> > > Apparently not over Georgian skies but in hiding or under repair.
> >
> > ? ?Where is the treaty or pact that requires or allows USAF involvement?
> > For that matter, if you feel so strongly why aren't YOU volunteering?
> > It's easy for you to accuse servicemen of being cowards since you you
> > are safe behind your modem.
> >
> > ? ?Tell us how USAF involvement beyond what is currently going on would
> > change things. Would it make you happy for the USAF to shoot down
> > Russian aircraft?
> >
> >
> >
> > > Same for US ground and naval forces- former has no troops to send
> > > anyway as it cannot even manage Afghanistan nor Iraq nor US borders
> > > and the latter would be ineffectual.*
> >
> > > Rob
> >
> > > * Bush won't even send a hospital ship to the Black Sea.
> >
> > ? It has been determined the Comfort isn't needed at this time, genius.
> > Turkey hasn't said she would allow the Comfort to pass anyway.
> >
> > ? Are you aware the USAF is making several flights a day into Georgia
> > with relief? I guess that doesn't count because you'd prefer war.
> >
> > ? Where are your heroes the Germans? Hiding under their beds?
> >
> > ? For that matter, have you ever said anything positive about the U.S.
> > and when did you say it?
> >
> > ? Amazing how someone who has never had to face any risk in her life
> > insults those who do it every day, isn't it?
> >
> > Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> A single C-17 does not qualify as any real relief effort, nor a C-9...

Does it hurt to be so dumb Rob ?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080818/pl_afp/georgiarussiaconflictusaid_
080818224747
WASHINGTON (AFP) - Five more US military flights with relief supplies
were dispatched to war-torn Georgia Monday as Washington considered the
possibility of sea humanitarian missions, officials said.

ADVERTISEMENT

So far, 14 planes have been involved in the US humanitarian effort,
which cost more than 4.2 million dollars, including medical supplies,
antibiotics, tents, blankets, food and water, they said.

"Five flights arrived in (the Georgian capital) Tbilisi over the weekend
carrying State Department-provided sleeping bags, blankets, burn
bandages and first aid kits for distribution to internally displaced
persons," State Department spokesman Robert Wood told reporters.

"Five additional flights are scheduled for today, August 18, carrying an
estimated 25,000 Defense Department-provided MRE's (meals-ready-to-eat)
as well as 3,000 hygiene kits provided by USAID and the office of
foreign disaster assistance," he said

>
> Stop making excuses...

Stop being stupid.

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

Vincent

August 20th 08, 09:27 PM

tankfixer

August 20th 08, 09:31 PM

In article <2241bea1-0d40-4ab9-963f-
>, says...
> On Aug 20, 1:01?pm, tankfixer > wrote:
> > In article <284a5176-e895-4a2a-a622-0a39b7cea6b6
> > @d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, says...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Aug 19, 10:12?pm, tankfixer > wrote:
> > > > In article <09eb4f53-09f5-475a-86a5-
> > > > >, says...
> >
> > > > > On Aug 19, 9:02?pm, george > wrote:
> > > > > > On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
> >
> > > > > > As if that's never happened before.
> > > > > > Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> > > > > > Unless Conny wants to start WW3
> >
> > > > > Russia claims Georgian "provocation" for the invasion of that nation
> > > > > and now Polish "provocation" with the missile deal in progress- making
> > > > > them a Russian target.
> >
> > > > > Let's play that game and say Russian Bears around Alaska are
> > > > > "provocation" and splash a few :)
> >
> > > > Fortunately we never could be bothered to volunteer to serve so we are
> > > > safe from your delusions.
> >
> > > So working on a M-60 somehow makes you both a political analyst and
> > > military strategist?
> >
> > It gives one a perspective you will never aquire.
> >
> > You assume it's the only job I've ever had in the military.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Dream on, Tinkerbell.
> >
> > > Everything on this NG is opinion anyway.
> >
> > Much of ill-informed and outright silly.
> >
> >
> >
> > > All you are doing in sitting on your ass and hoping resurgent Russian
> > > military power/aggression will just go away.
> >
> > No, I'm not offering stupid opinions based on incomplete and half true
> > news reports.
> > That is folly.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Congratulations, you are now a Canadian or European ;)
> >
> > And I would still be a better man than you ....
> >
> Says you- from the safety of your trailer or a basement...

Projecting again are you Rob ?

You know it's not too late to step up and make something of yourself.
Have your mom drive you to a recruiting station this afternoon

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

Jack Linthicum

August 20th 08, 09:31 PM

On Aug 20, 4:23 pm, tankfixer > wrote:
> In article <f492d803-788b-4aa6-b6cd-41039cf3c694
> @k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 20, 1:12 pm, Dan > wrote:
> > > Jack Linthicum wrote:
> > > > On Aug 20, 9:44 am, Vincent > wrote:
> > > >> Rob Arndt wrote:
> > > >>> On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
> > > >>>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
> > > >>>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
> > > >>>> As if that's never happened before.
> > > >>>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> > > >>>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
> > > >>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> > > >>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> > > >>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> > > >>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
> > > >>> People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
> > > >>> negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
> > > >>> anything of Slavic origin.
> > > >>> Rob
> > > >> Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22
>
> > > >> That is what takes balls
>
> > > >> Vince
>
> > > > On the other hand we have people who are still alive to testify as to
> > > > the efficacy of shooting versus some other solution.
>
> > > > The Traveling Hunter
>
> > > > Grizzly Defense
> > > > What's the best way to defend yourself if you run into a grizzly while
> > > > hunting--or if a grizzly tries to run into you?
>
> > > > Nearly all authorities on the subject agree that the first two words
> > > > to memorize in this regard are "pepper spray." I'm fully aware that
> > > > some hunters associate pepper spray with politically correct, granola-
> > > > eating, New Age, tree-hugger crapola. "Just give me my gun," these
> > > > guys brag, "and I'll drop any charging griz like a sack of rocks."
>
> > > > Other hunters are less fanatical on the subject, but simply have
> > > > serious (and understandable) doubts about the efficacy of a spray can
> > > > to stop one of the largest and most dangerous animals in North
> > > > America. Doesn't it just make sense that a high-caliber bullet is more
> > > > potent, and more effective in a life-or-death situation?
>
> > > > It?s a reasonable question, and by no means should hunters dismiss the
> > > > power and value of their firearms, as we'll discuss later. But as is
> > > > so often the case when it comes to bears, the answer is more complex
> > > > than it might first appear.
>
> > > > Studies by biologist Stephen Herrero and others indicate that pepper
> > > > spray works on charging bears about 90 to 96 percent of the time. Mark
> > > > Matheny, a hunter who was seriously mauled by a grizzly several years
> > > > ago while deer hunting north of Yellowstone Park, and who subsequently
> > > > began a career devoted to bear self-defense and the manufacture of
> > > > UDAP pepper spray, explains how a mere blast of cayenne aerosol can
> > > > stop an angry griz:
>
> > > > "First, with a charging bear the loud hissing and billowing cloud
> > > > startles them, lessening or turning their aggressive intentions into a
> > > > state of surprise or even defensive evasion. When a bear hits the wall
> > > > of fog and breathes it in, his sense of smell is instantly shut down,
> > > > which confuses any animal. Chemically, pepper spray is an inflammatory
> > > > agent, an irritant, that gets into the bear's mucus membranes, causing
> > > > temporary blindness, choking, and difficulty breathing. In many cases,
> > > > they go off hacking and coughing."
>
> > > > For those who believe a gun is still a better bet to stop a bear,
> > > > Matheny adds:
>
> > > > "Some people think a .44 magnum or large-caliber rifle is going to
> > > > have the 'power' to stop a bear. But you're talking about a bullet not
> > > > much wider than a writing pen hitting a vital area. That's assuming
> > > > you even get a bullet off. Most times when someone with a firearm is
> > > > attacked, they don't get a shot off. You've got to get the gun up,
> > > > aim, and fire. With pepper spray, you can fire right from the holster,
> > > > putting up a wide stream, even a fog, of deterrent. You can respond
> > > > instantly and the likelihood of hitting the bear is much greater."
>
> > > > Another compelling reason for the use of pepper spray instead of
> > > > bullets is that many grizzly charges are not full "attacks," but are
> > > > only attempts by the bear to discourage and intimidate human
> > > > intruders. For instance, if you surprise a grizzly feeding on an elk
> > > > carcass (possibly your elk carcass), the bear might charge without
> > > > intending actual contact, its purpose being to simply drive you away.
>
> > > > Of course, for those who aren't expert at reading bear behavior, it's
> > > > fair to ask, "How am I supposed to know whether the bear means
> > > > business or is just bluffing?" Which is precisely why pepper spray is
> > > > a better alternative to a bullet in most situations. With the spray,
> > > > you can very likely discourage the bear without worsening the
> > > > situation or elevating it to an irreversibly deadlier level. If the
> > > > bear breaks through the spray blast, and you're an armed hunter, you
> > > > still have your gun as a last resort. But if a sprayed bear veers off,
> > > > the encounter is over. No one is hurt. Conversely, if your first line
> > > > of defense is a gunshot, and you shoot at the bear, the results will
> > > > almost always be more severe. If the bear was only bluffing, you've
> > > > now either killed or wounded a bear unnecessarily. Also possible is
> > > > that by wounding it you've turned a bluffing bear into a seriously
> > > > enraged one, intent on killing you. Another scenario: You shoot at an
> > > > attacking bear and--because they come so fast, unbelievably fast if
> > > > you've never experienced it, often catching you in utter surprise--you
> > > > simply miss. The bear is on you. What you missed with bullets you
> > > > could have easily hit with deterrent spray.
>
> > > > But aren't there times when you should shoot, or perhaps must shoot?
> > > > While pepper spray is generally considered the best primary, first-
> > > > choice bear defense, you wouldn't want to make the same mistake as the
> > > > hunter in Wyoming's Bridger-Teton National Forest who, when charged by
> > > > a sow grizzly with three yearling cubs, allegedly threw his high-
> > > > powered rifle at the bear and pulled out a can of pepper spray, which
> > > > by that time failed to stop the attack. The hunter was mauled until
> > > > his partner shot and killed the 475-pound animal. Later, from his
> > > > hospital bed, the hunter said he didn't want to shoot the bear because
> > > > he feared going to jail (for killing an endangered species) and losing
> > > > his hunting privileges.
>
> > > > The reality is, if a grizzly attacks, sometimes you have to shoot,
> > > > and, further, you would be foolish not to. That is why I think of
> > > > pepper spray as "the first line of defense, when feasible." If
> > > > there's no time to hit the spray button (and with the canister mounted
> > > > pistol-fashion on your belt, you can aim and fire from the hip in mere
> > > > seconds), or if you spray and the bear keeps coming, you have little
> > > > choice but to shoot. With a grizzly still far enough away to dissuade,
> > > > you can try a shot into the air or into the ground near the animal,
> > > > hoping the muzzle blast or bullet noise will stop or turn the charge.
> > > > But with a close, fast-incoming bear, don't waste time with a warning
> > > > shot. Aim for the deadliest point you can find. On a close-in,
> > > > charging bear, this will probably be the face or upper chest. Often
> > > > full-attack grizzlies lower their heads as they come in, so that's
> > > > about all you have to aim at. More than one Alaskan guide of my
> > > > acquaintance suggests aiming for the snout--a high shot goes into the
> > > > upper skull or even over the top, into the neck or spine; and if the
> > > > bear hops or you shoot low, you have a chance at the throat, chest, or
> > > > even a shoulder or leg, all of which can stop the animal, if only long
> > > > enough for you to aim and shoot again.
>
> > > > Although this is legitimate self-defense, it clearly is not a
> > > > desirable outcome. That is why Mark Matheny likes to tell hunters,
> > > > "Spray 'em, don't slay 'em." He points out that too many close-
> > > > encounter grizzlies are killed unnecessarily; which is not only bad
> > > > for the bears, but also for hunting's already precarious social image.
> > > > Long-time bear biologist Chris Servheen agrees, calling the
> > > > unnecessary killing of grizzlies by sportsmen nothing less than "a
> > > > threat to hunting."
>
> > > > In the end, the ideal is to protect yourself while sparing the bears,
> > > > whenever that's possible. --Anthony Acerrano
>
> > > What about the right to keep and arm bears?
>
> > > Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> > I understand it is the "keeping" that the difficult part
>
> They lay nicely in front of the fireplace....
>
>
>
> > often called "The Tall Pig"
>
> >http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.colusi.org/linked/phot...
>
> --
> Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
> Goode with Ketchup.

It is the ones that wake up that too few people worry about

Vincent

August 20th 08, 09:33 PM

tankfixer wrote:
> In article <51af37c0-b1a4-41df-82f2-
> >, says...
>> On Aug 20, 6:44?am, Vincent > wrote:
>>> Rob Arndt wrote:
>>>> On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
>>>>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>>>>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
>>>>> As if that's never happened before.
>>>>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
>>>>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>>>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
>>>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
>>>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
>>>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>>>> People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
>>>> negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
>>>> anything of Slavic origin.
>>>> Rob
>>> Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22
>>>
>>> That is what takes balls
>>>
>>> Vince- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>> Bad analogy. If hunter is US vs Russian Bear the gun is anything from
>> a .50 cal rifle to a 40mm Grenade launcher to a flame thrower.
>>
>> Where is the vaunted USAF which is able to defeat any foe, anwhere?
>> Apparently not over Georgian skies but in hiding or under repair.
>>
>> Same for US ground and naval forces- former has no troops to send
>> anyway as it cannot even manage Afghanistan nor Iraq nor US borders
>> and the latter would be ineffectual.*
>
> Why is it there were more non-combat deaths in Iraq last month than ones
> resulting from combat ?
>

Because the Iraqi view us as no longer relevant and and are biding
their time before we leave and they can kill one another to their hearts

Sectarian Bias Alleged In Iraqi Raids in Diyala
Security Forces Storm Governor's Office

By Zaid Sabah and Sudarsan Raghavan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, August 20, 2008; Page A09

BAGHDAD, Aug 19 -- Iraqi security forces raided the governor's office in
restive Diyala province Tuesday, killing an official and injuring four
guards. A Sunni provincial council member and the Sunni president of
Diyala University were also arrested, prompting accusations of sectarian
bias on the part of the Shiite-dominated security forces.

Local officials declared three days of mourning and protested the raids.
In response to the tensions, security officials imposed a curfew on
Baqubah, the provincial capital.

The arrests threatened to deepen Sunni frustrations in Diyala, which is
largely led by Shiites but has a predominantly Sunni population.
U.S.-backed Sunni fighters who turned against the insurgent group
al-Qaeda in Iraq have for months expressed resentment at arrests and
crackdowns by the Shiite-led police force

etcetera

Vince

george

August 20th 08, 09:38 PM

On Aug 20, 4:13 pm, Rob Arndt > wrote:
> On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
>
> > On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>
> > > Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
>
> > As if that's never happened before.
> > Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> > Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>
> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.

You obviously are unaware of how to make sure that you don't encounter
a bear.
Shooting the bear is a last resort

> People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
> negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
> anything of Slavic origin.
>

When you have finished interviewing your own interpretation of the
world do try to actually read what was posted.
And does lipstick come with the rouge ?
Sheesh

Dan[_12_]

August 20th 08, 09:40 PM

Rob Arndt wrote:
> On Aug 20, 12:32ï¿½pm, Dan > wrote:
>> Rob Arndt wrote:
>>> On Aug 20, 6:44 am, Vincent > wrote:
>>>> Rob Arndt wrote:
>>>>> On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
>>>>>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>>>>>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
>>>>>> As if that's never happened before.
>>>>>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
>>>>>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>>>>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
>>>>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
>>>>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
>>>>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>>>>> People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
>>>>> negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
>>>>> anything of Slavic origin.
>>>>> Rob
>>>> Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22
>>>> That is what takes balls
>>>> Vince- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> Bad analogy. If hunter is US vs Russian Bear the gun is anything from
>>> a .50 cal rifle to a 40mm Grenade launcher to a flame thrower.
>>> Where is the vaunted USAF which is able to defeat any foe, anwhere?
>>> Apparently not over Georgian skies but in hiding or under repair.
>> ï¿½ ï¿½Where is the treaty or pact that requires or allows USAF involvement?
>> For that matter, if you feel so strongly why aren't YOU volunteering?
>> It's easy for you to accuse servicemen of being cowards since you you
>> are safe behind your modem.
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½Tell us how USAF involvement beyond what is currently going on would
>> change things. Would it make you happy for the USAF to shoot down
>> Russian aircraft?
>>
>>
>>
>>> Same for US ground and naval forces- former has no troops to send
>>> anyway as it cannot even manage Afghanistan nor Iraq nor US borders
>>> and the latter would be ineffectual.*
>>> Rob
>>> * Bush won't even send a hospital ship to the Black Sea.
>> ï¿½ It has been determined the Comfort isn't needed at this time, genius.
>> Turkey hasn't said she would allow the Comfort to pass anyway.
>>
>> ï¿½ Are you aware the USAF is making several flights a day into Georgia
>> with relief? I guess that doesn't count because you'd prefer war.
>>
>> ï¿½ Where are your heroes the Germans? Hiding under their beds?
>>
>> ï¿½ For that matter, have you ever said anything positive about the U.S.
>> and when did you say it?
>>
>> ï¿½ Amazing how someone who has never had to face any risk in her life
>> insults those who do it every day, isn't it?
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> A single C-17 does not qualify as any real relief effort, nor a C-9...
>
> Stop making excuses...
>
> Rob

What did you expect the U.S. military to do? Suppose the USAF went
to Georgia and shot down every Russian airplane and destroyed all the
Russian ground forces, then what? Do you seriously expect the Russians
to stop at that point? Do you really want the U.S. to engage in direct
war with Russia?

There's more than one C-17 involved. Why bring up C-9? They are all
long retired.

Where are your beloved Germans?

Have you ever said anything positive about the U.S. and when did you
say it?

Do you have the slightest idea how pathetic you sound?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

george

August 20th 08, 09:45 PM

On Aug 21, 8:31 am, tankfixer > wrote:

> You know it's not too late to step up and make something of yourself.
> Have your mom drive you to a recruiting station this afternoon
>
We have/had a term for such living room warriors.
We called them 'B' Battalion (or 'B' Watch)
They'll 'B' here when we go and they'll 'B' here when we come back..

Dan[_12_]

August 20th 08, 09:48 PM

tankfixer wrote:
> In article <2241bea1-0d40-4ab9-963f-
> >, says...
>> On Aug 20, 1:01?pm, tankfixer > wrote:
>>> In article <284a5176-e895-4a2a-a622-0a39b7cea6b6
>>> @d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, says...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Aug 19, 10:12?pm, tankfixer > wrote:
>>>>> In article <09eb4f53-09f5-475a-86a5-
>>>>> >, says...
>>>>>> On Aug 19, 9:02?pm, george > wrote:
>>>>>>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>>>>>>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
>>>>>>> As if that's never happened before.
>>>>>>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
>>>>>>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
>>>>>> Russia claims Georgian "provocation" for the invasion of that nation
>>>>>> and now Polish "provocation" with the missile deal in progress- making
>>>>>> them a Russian target.
>>>>>> Let's play that game and say Russian Bears around Alaska are
>>>>>> "provocation" and splash a few :)
>>>>> Fortunately we never could be bothered to volunteer to serve so we are
>>>>> safe from your delusions.
>>>> So working on a M-60 somehow makes you both a political analyst and
>>>> military strategist?
>>> It gives one a perspective you will never aquire.
>>>
>>> You assume it's the only job I've ever had in the military.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Dream on, Tinkerbell.
>>>> Everything on this NG is opinion anyway.
>>> Much of ill-informed and outright silly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> All you are doing in sitting on your ass and hoping resurgent Russian
>>>> military power/aggression will just go away.
>>> No, I'm not offering stupid opinions based on incomplete and half true
>>> news reports.
>>> That is folly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Congratulations, you are now a Canadian or European ;)
>>> And I would still be a better man than you ....
>>>
>> Says you- from the safety of your trailer or a basement...
>
> Projecting again are you Rob ?
>
> You know it's not too late to step up and make something of yourself.
> Have your mom drive you to a recruiting station this afternoon
>
>
I don't think that will happen. Aren't is a coward and her mother
wouldn't do her any favours if she ever finds out aren't called her an
idiot her in RAM a few years ago. Actually she called both her parents
idiots.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

tankfixer

August 21st 08, 01:02 AM

In article <pc%qk.299$w51.178@trnddc01>, says...
> tankfixer wrote:
> > In article <51af37c0-b1a4-41df-82f2-
> > >, says...
> >> On Aug 20, 6:44?am, Vincent > wrote:
> >>> Rob Arndt wrote:
> >>>> On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george > wrote:
> >>>>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
> >>>>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
> >>>>> As if that's never happened before.
> >>>>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> >>>>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
> >>>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> >>>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> >>>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> >>>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
> >>>> People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna
> >>>> negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and
> >>>> anything of Slavic origin.
> >>>> Rob
> >>> Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22
> >>>
> >>> That is what takes balls
> >>>
> >>> Vince- Hide quoted text -
> >>>
> >>> - Show quoted text -
> >> Bad analogy. If hunter is US vs Russian Bear the gun is anything from
> >> a .50 cal rifle to a 40mm Grenade launcher to a flame thrower.
> >>
> >> Where is the vaunted USAF which is able to defeat any foe, anwhere?
> >> Apparently not over Georgian skies but in hiding or under repair.
> >>
> >> Same for US ground and naval forces- former has no troops to send
> >> anyway as it cannot even manage Afghanistan nor Iraq nor US borders
> >> and the latter would be ineffectual.*
> >
> > Why is it there were more non-combat deaths in Iraq last month than ones
> > resulting from combat ?
> >
>
> Because the Iraqi view us as no longer relevant and and are biding
> their time before we leave and they can kill one another to their hearts

That is a possible explanation.

>
> Sectarian Bias Alleged In Iraqi Raids in Diyala
> Security Forces Storm Governor's Office
>
>
> By Zaid Sabah and Sudarsan Raghavan
> Washington Post Foreign Service
> Wednesday, August 20, 2008; Page A09
>
> BAGHDAD, Aug 19 -- Iraqi security forces raided the governor's office in
> restive Diyala province Tuesday, killing an official and injuring four
> guards. A Sunni provincial council member and the Sunni president of
> Diyala University were also arrested, prompting accusations of sectarian
> bias on the part of the Shiite-dominated security forces.
>
> Local officials declared three days of mourning and protested the raids.
> In response to the tensions, security officials imposed a curfew on
> Baqubah, the provincial capital.
>
> The arrests threatened to deepen Sunni frustrations in Diyala, which is
> largely led by Shiites but has a predominantly Sunni population.
> U.S.-backed Sunni fighters who turned against the insurgent group
> al-Qaeda in Iraq have for months expressed resentment at arrests and
> crackdowns by the Shiite-led police force
>

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

tankfixer

August 21st 08, 01:03 AM

In article <615855b5-7128-45ba-a95c-
>, says...
> On Aug 21, 8:31 am, tankfixer > wrote:
>
> > You know it's not too late to step up and make something of yourself.
> > Have your mom drive you to a recruiting station this afternoon
> >
> We have/had a term for such living room warriors.
> We called them 'B' Battalion (or 'B' Watch)
> They'll 'B' here when we go and they'll 'B' here when we come back..

Rob's one of those who had better things to do with his life than
volunteer for anything.

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

tankfixer

August 21st 08, 01:04 AM

In article >, says...
> tankfixer wrote:
> > In article <2241bea1-0d40-4ab9-963f-
> > >, says...
> >> On Aug 20, 1:01?pm, tankfixer > wrote:
> >>> In article <284a5176-e895-4a2a-a622-0a39b7cea6b6
> >>> @d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, says...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Aug 19, 10:12?pm, tankfixer > wrote:
> >>>>> In article <09eb4f53-09f5-475a-86a5-
> >>>>> >, says...
> >>>>>> On Aug 19, 9:02?pm, george > wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska
> >>>>>>> As if that's never happened before.
> >>>>>>> Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done.
> >>>>>>> Unless Conny wants to start WW3
> >>>>>> Russia claims Georgian "provocation" for the invasion of that nation
> >>>>>> and now Polish "provocation" with the missile deal in progress- making
> >>>>>> them a Russian target.
> >>>>>> Let's play that game and say Russian Bears around Alaska are
> >>>>>> "provocation" and splash a few :)
> >>>>> Fortunately we never could be bothered to volunteer to serve so we are
> >>>>> safe from your delusions.
> >>>> So working on a M-60 somehow makes you both a political analyst and
> >>>> military strategist?
> >>> It gives one a perspective you will never aquire.
> >>>
> >>> You assume it's the only job I've ever had in the military.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Dream on, Tinkerbell.
> >>>> Everything on this NG is opinion anyway.
> >>> Much of ill-informed and outright silly.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> All you are doing in sitting on your ass and hoping resurgent Russian
> >>>> military power/aggression will just go away.
> >>> No, I'm not offering stupid opinions based on incomplete and half true
> >>> news reports.
> >>> That is folly.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Congratulations, you are now a Canadian or European ;)
> >>> And I would still be a better man than you ....
> >>>
> >> Says you- from the safety of your trailer or a basement...
> >
> > Projecting again are you Rob ?
> >
> > You know it's not too late to step up and make something of yourself.
> > Have your mom drive you to a recruiting station this afternoon
> >
> >
> I don't think that will happen. Aren't is a coward and her mother
> wouldn't do her any favours if she ever finds out aren't called her an
> idiot her in RAM a few years ago. Actually she called both her parents
> idiots.
>

I guess the boy can take the bus then..

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

Steve Hix

August 21st 08, 02:45 AM

In article >,
tankfixer > wrote:

> In article <78e81164-22b5-4cce-9c65-
> >, says...
> >
> > Stop making excuses...
>
> Stop being stupid.

It's all he's got left.

tankfixer

August 21st 08, 04:56 AM

In article >,
says...
> In article >,
> tankfixer > wrote:
>
> > In article <78e81164-22b5-4cce-9c65-
> > >, says...
> > >
> > > Stop making excuses...
> >
> > Stop being stupid.
>
> It's all he's got left.

So it seems.

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

Dean

August 21st 08, 03:44 PM

On Aug 20, 3:32 pm, Dan > wrote:
snipped....
>
> Where are your heroes the Germans? Hiding under their beds?
>
snipped
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I believe the Germans are in Afghanistan....up north where they don't
have to fight......

Dean

William Black[_1_]

August 21st 08, 07:10 PM

"Rob Arndt" > wrote in message
...

So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.

----------------------------

That's great, right up to when you realise that the bear has a gun too,
and so does his wife and his kids.

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

george

August 21st 08, 10:00 PM

On Aug 22, 6:10 am, "William Black" >
wrote:
> "Rob Arndt" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>
> ----------------------------
>
> That's great, right up to when you realise that the bear has a gun too,
> and so does his wife and his kids.
>
I can't work out as to why his only solution to a wild animal is to
destroy it.
The simile is absurd

Andrew Robert Breen

August 21st 08, 11:31 PM

In article >,
george > wrote:
>On Aug 22, 6:10 am, "William Black" >
>wrote:
>> "Rob Arndt" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>>
>> ----------------------------
>>
>> That's great, right up to when you realise that the bear has a gun too,
>> and so does his wife and his kids.
>>
>I can't work out as to why his only solution to a wild animal is to
>destroy it.
> The simile is absurd

It's not Arndt's similie that's absurd. It's him.

--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

Dean A. Markley

August 22nd 08, 02:03 AM

korben dallas wrote:
> eyeball wrote:
>>> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
>>
>> You live in Moscow, komrade?
>
> this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))
>
> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live" there.
> or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
> anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
> lives in the usa.
>
> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on vacation.
What part of Moscow do you live in? Which McDonalds is the closest to
you? Do the Russians prefer Coke or Pepsi?

frank

August 22nd 08, 05:41 AM

On Aug 21, 8:03*pm, "Dean A. Markley" > wrote:
> korben dallas wrote:
> > eyeball wrote:
> >>> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
>
> >> You live in Moscow, komrade?
>
> > this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))
>
> > live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live" there..
> > or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
> > anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
> > lives in the usa.
>
> > i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on vacation.
>
> What part of Moscow do you live in? *Which McDonalds is the closest to
> you? *Do the Russians prefer Coke or Pepsi?

Wait, we got Ruskies in Idaho? First they show up in Georgia, now
they're in Idaho? What the hell they do, take the Amtrak from
Berkeley?

Damn Bush and his black helicopters, where's my militia alert list....

Dan[_12_]

August 22nd 08, 06:31 AM

frank wrote:
> On Aug 21, 8:03 pm, "Dean A. Markley" > wrote:
>> korben dallas wrote:
>>> eyeball wrote:
>>>>> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
>>>> You live in Moscow, komrade?
>>> this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))
>>> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live" there.
>>> or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
>>> anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
>>> lives in the usa.
>>> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on vacation.
>> What part of Moscow do you live in? Which McDonalds is the closest to
>> you? Do the Russians prefer Coke or Pepsi?
>
> Wait, we got Ruskies in Idaho? First they show up in Georgia, now
> they're in Idaho? What the hell they do, take the Amtrak from
> Berkeley?
>
> Damn Bush and his black helicopters, where's my militia alert list....

If we give them Sacramento and Newark will they give us Georgia back?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Richard Casady

August 22nd 08, 01:13 PM

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), george >
wrote:

>On Aug 22, 6:10 am, "William Black" >
>wrote:
>> "Rob Arndt" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>>
>> ----------------------------
>>
>> That's great, right up to when you realise that the bear has a gun too,
>> and so does his wife and his kids.
>>
>I can't work out as to why his only solution to a wild animal is to
>destroy it.
> The simile is absurd

Of the critters in North America, only bears, possibly moose, are
dangerous enough to occasionally need shooting in self defence. All
the rest get a pass unless one needs to eat them. [I haven't shot any
game in about thirty years.]

Casady

[email protected][_2_]

August 22nd 08, 02:04 PM

On Aug 22, 8:13*am, (Richard Casady)
wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), george >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Aug 22, 6:10 am, "William Black" >
> >wrote:[i]
> >> "Rob Arndt" > wrote in message
>
> ....
>
> >> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> >> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> >> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> >> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>
> >> ----------------------------
>
> >> That's great, *right up to when you realise that the bear has a gun too,
> >> and so does his wife and his kids.
>
> >I can't work out as to why his only solution to a wild animal is to
> >destroy it.
> > The simile is absurd
>
> Of the critters in North America, only bears, possibly moose, are
> dangerous enough to occasionally need shooting in self defence. All
> the rest get a pass unless one needs to eat them.
>
> Casady

Rattlesnakes and cottonmouths say "hi". Also, mountain
lions have been getting a bit more frisky lately.

frank

August 22nd 08, 03:51 PM

On Aug 22, 8:04*am, " > wrote:
> On Aug 22, 8:13*am, (Richard Casady)
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), george >
> > wrote:
>[i]
> > >On Aug 22, 6:10 am, "William Black" >
> > >wrote:
> > >> "Rob Arndt" > wrote in message
>
> > ...
>
> > >> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> > >> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> > >> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> > >> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>
> > >> ----------------------------
>
> > >> That's great, *right up to when you realise that the bear has a gun too,
> > >> and so does his wife and his kids.
>
> > >I can't work out as to why his only solution to a wild animal is to
> > >destroy it.
> > > The simile is absurd
>
> > Of the critters in North America, only bears, possibly moose, are
> > dangerous enough to occasionally need shooting in self defence. All
> > the rest get a pass unless one needs to eat them.
>
> > Casady
>
> * * * * * * * Rattlesnakes and cottonmouths say "hi". Also, mountain
> lions have been getting a bit more frisky lately.

I guess if that's your thing, you 'could' move to Missouri. They
repealed the laws on bestiality a few years ago. Then realized their
mistake and put them back in. For State legislatures, they have to be
one of the dumbest ones around, hands down.

For a while they were passing anti-abortion laws. Not a problem,
that's part of the legislative system, you can make whatever law you
want. But, when the Supreme court finds it unconstitutional, and the
court voids the law, then you pass the same law a year later, and its
voided and you do it again, now that's stupid. Or idiotic. Or the
Missouri legislature.

Now Missouri is a nice state, their Dept of Conservation, Wildlife,
all that, is the best in the country. Great places to fish, hunt,
recreate, and lots of them. Hiking, biking, can't beat it. You can't
climb a 5,000 foot mountain, but hey.

Legislators, they're dumb. I used to work for the state, used to hate
to get calls from the legislators wanting to back up their favorite
project or bill.

frank

August 22nd 08, 03:54 PM

On Aug 22, 12:31*am, Dan > wrote:
> frank wrote:
> > On Aug 21, 8:03 pm, "Dean A. Markley" > wrote:
> >> korben dallas wrote:
> >>> eyeball wrote:
> >>>>> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
> >>>> You live in Moscow, komrade?
> >>> this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))
> >>> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live" there.
> >>> or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
> >>> anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
> >>> lives in the usa.
> >>> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on vacation.
> >> What part of Moscow do you live in? *Which McDonalds is the closest to
> >> you? *Do the Russians prefer Coke or Pepsi?
>
> > Wait, we got Ruskies in Idaho? First they show up in Georgia, now
> > they're in Idaho? What the hell they do, take the Amtrak from
> > Berkeley?
>
> > Damn Bush and his black helicopters, where's my militia alert list....
>
> * * If we give them Sacramento and Newark will they give us Georgia back?
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I vote El Paso and Houston, and I'm a native Texan. Anybody got any
other areas? Maybe we can swap for oil fields in the Caucases. Florida
for the Ukraine? Then they could have MORE Cubans...and if we time it
right, could get rid of some of the more airheaded movie stars.

Richard Casady

August 22nd 08, 04:35 PM

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:54:54 -0700 (PDT), frank
> wrote:

>On Aug 22, 12:31*am, Dan > wrote:
>> frank wrote:
>> > On Aug 21, 8:03 pm, "Dean A. Markley" > wrote:
>> >> korben dallas wrote:
>> >>> eyeball wrote:
>> >>>>> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
>> >>>> You live in Moscow, komrade?
>> >>> this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))
>> >>> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live" there.
>> >>> or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
>> >>> anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
>> >>> lives in the usa.
>> >>> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on vacation.
>> >> What part of Moscow do you live in? *Which McDonalds is the closest to
>> >> you? *Do the Russians prefer Coke or Pepsi?
>>
>> > Wait, we got Ruskies in Idaho? First they show up in Georgia, now
>> > they're in Idaho? What the hell they do, take the Amtrak from
>> > Berkeley?
>>
>> > Damn Bush and his black helicopters, where's my militia alert list....
>>
>> * * If we give them Sacramento and Newark will they give us Georgia back?
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>I vote El Paso and Houston, and I'm a native Texan. Anybody got any
>other areas? Maybe we can swap for oil fields in the Caucases. Florida
>for the Ukraine? Then they could have MORE Cubans...and if we time it
>right, could get rid of some of the more airheaded movie stars.

As a Viet Nam era USAF vet, I don't really mind that Jane Fonda made a
trip to Hanoi. I object to her coming back.

Casady

Richard Casady

August 22nd 08, 04:39 PM

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 06:04:16 -0700 (PDT), "
> wrote:

>On Aug 22, 8:13*am, (Richard Casady)
>wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), george >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>[i]
>> >On Aug 22, 6:10 am, "William Black" >
>> >wrote:
>> >> "Rob Arndt" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> >> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
>> >> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
>> >> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
>> >> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>>
>> >> ----------------------------
>>
>> >> That's great, *right up to when you realise that the bear has a gun too,
>> >> and so does his wife and his kids.
>>
>> >I can't work out as to why his only solution to a wild animal is to
>> >destroy it.
>> > The simile is absurd
>>
>> Of the critters in North America, only bears, possibly moose, are
>> dangerous enough to occasionally need shooting in self defence. All
>> the rest get a pass unless one needs to eat them.
>>
>> Casady
>
>
> Rattlesnakes and cottonmouths say "hi". Also, mountain
>lions have been getting a bit more frisky lately.

It is easier to avoid a snake than shoot it. Lions do not have an
extensive record for attacking people. Bears do.

Casady

[email protected][_2_]

August 22nd 08, 05:38 PM

On Aug 22, 11:39*am, (Richard Casady)
wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 06:04:16 -0700 (PDT), "
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Aug 22, 8:13*am, (Richard Casady)
> >wrote:
> >> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), george >
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >On Aug 22, 6:10 am, "William Black" >
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> "Rob Arndt" > wrote in message
>
> >> ...
>
> >> >> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
> >> >> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
> >> >> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
> >> >> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>
> >> >> ----------------------------
>
> >> >> That's great, *right up to when you realise that the bear has a gun too,
> >> >> and so does his wife and his kids.
>
> >> >I can't work out as to why his only solution to a wild animal is to
> >> >destroy it.
> >> > The simile is absurd
>
> >> Of the critters in North America, only bears, possibly moose, are
> >> dangerous enough to occasionally need shooting in self defence. All
> >> the rest get a pass unless one needs to eat them. [I haven't shot any
> >> game in about thirty years.]
>
> >> Casady
>
> > * * * * * * *Rattlesnakes and cottonmouths say "hi". Also, mountain
> >lions have been getting a bit more frisky lately.
>
> It is easier to avoid a snake than shoot it. Lions do not have an
> extensive record for attacking people. Bears do.
>
> Casady

Snakes are fine unless they decide to move in. Mountqain
lions...which there was no record of an attack on a human until about
20 years ago....are now averaging 3-4 per year.

[email protected][_2_]

August 22nd 08, 05:49 PM

>·

>
> > > Of the critters in North America, only bears, possibly moose, are
> > > dangerous enough to occasionally need shooting in self defence. All
> > > the rest get a pass unless one needs to eat them. [I haven't shot any
> > > game in about thirty years.]
>
> > > Casady
>
> > * * * * * * * Rattlesnakes and cottonmouths say "hi". Also, mountain
> > lions have been getting a bit more frisky lately.
>
> I guess if that's your thing, you 'could' move to Missouri. They
> repealed the laws on bestiality a few years ago. Then realized their
> mistake and put them back in. For State legislatures, they have to be
> one of the dumbest ones around, hands down.
>
> For a while they were passing anti-abortion laws. Not a problem,
> that's part of the legislative system, you can make whatever law you
> want. But, when the Supreme court finds it unconstitutional, and the
> court voids the law, then you pass the same law a year later, and its
> voided and you do it again, now that's stupid. Or idiotic. Or the
> Missouri legislature.
>
> Now Missouri is a nice state, their Dept of Conservation, Wildlife,
> all that, is the best in the country. Great places to fish, hunt,
> recreate, and lots of them. Hiking, biking, can't beat it. You can't
> climb a 5,000 foot mountain, but hey.
>
> Legislators, they're dumb. I used to work for the state, used to hate
> to get calls from the legislators wanting to back up their favorite
> project or bill.

I'd say most, if not all, state legislatures tend toward being
total dumbasses at times. There's something about getting elected that
seems to drop IQs by 25 points at the national level and 50 points at
the state level.

Jack Linthicum

August 22nd 08, 06:05 PM

On Aug 22, 12:49 pm, " > wrote:
> >·
>
> > > > Of the critters in North America, only bears, possibly moose, are
> > > > dangerous enough to occasionally need shooting in self defence. All
> > > > the rest get a pass unless one needs to eat them. [I haven't shot any
> > > > game in about thirty years.]
>
> > > > Casady
>
> > > Rattlesnakes and cottonmouths say "hi". Also, mountain
> > > lions have been getting a bit more frisky lately.
>
> > I guess if that's your thing, you 'could' move to Missouri. They
> > repealed the laws on bestiality a few years ago. Then realized their
> > mistake and put them back in. For State legislatures, they have to be
> > one of the dumbest ones around, hands down.
>
> > For a while they were passing anti-abortion laws. Not a problem,
> > that's part of the legislative system, you can make whatever law you
> > want. But, when the Supreme court finds it unconstitutional, and the
> > court voids the law, then you pass the same law a year later, and its
> > voided and you do it again, now that's stupid. Or idiotic. Or the
> > Missouri legislature.
>
> > Now Missouri is a nice state, their Dept of Conservation, Wildlife,
> > all that, is the best in the country. Great places to fish, hunt,
> > recreate, and lots of them. Hiking, biking, can't beat it. You can't
> > climb a 5,000 foot mountain, but hey.
>
> > Legislators, they're dumb. I used to work for the state, used to hate
> > to get calls from the legislators wanting to back up their favorite
> > project or bill.
>
> I'd say most, if not all, state legislatures tend toward being
> total dumbasses at times. There's something about getting elected that
> seems to drop IQs by 25 points at the national level and 50 points at
> the state level.

There is also the factor of phantom self-esteem, the belief that you
have in you the qualities the lobbyists and staff seem to find in you.

frank

August 22nd 08, 06:53 PM

On Aug 22, 10:35*am, (Richard Casady)
wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:54:54 -0700 (PDT), frank
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Aug 22, 12:31*am, Dan > wrote:
> >> frank wrote:
> >> > On Aug 21, 8:03 pm, "Dean A. Markley" > wrote:
> >> >> korben dallas wrote:
> >> >>> eyeball wrote:
> >> >>>>> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
> >> >>>> You live in Moscow, komrade?
> >> >>> this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))
> >> >>> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live" there.
> >> >>> or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
> >> >>> anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
> >> >>> lives in the usa.
> >> >>> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on vacation.
> >> >> What part of Moscow do you live in? *Which McDonalds is the closest to
> >> >> you? *Do the Russians prefer Coke or Pepsi?
>
> >> > Wait, we got Ruskies in Idaho? First they show up in Georgia, now
> >> > they're in Idaho? What the hell they do, take the Amtrak from
> >> > Berkeley?
>
> >> > Damn Bush and his black helicopters, where's my militia alert list.....
>
> >> * * If we give them Sacramento and Newark will they give us Georgia back?
>
> >> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> >I vote El Paso and Houston, and I'm a native Texan. Anybody got any
> >other areas? Maybe we can swap for oil fields in the Caucases. Florida
> >for the Ukraine? Then they could have MORE Cubans...and if we time it
> >right, could get rid of some of the more airheaded movie stars.
>
> As a Viet Nam era USAF vet, I don't really mind that Jane Fonda made a
> trip to Hanoi. I object to her coming back.
>
> Casady

I seem to recall there was quite an anti-war crowd in Japan, mainly
Communist based as opposed to those with a philosophical disagreement
with war. There were more than a few Army enlisted types who went over
to them and were smuggled out to Sweden via propaganda stop in Moscow.
Might have been a naval enlisted or two, but mainly Army.

I recall there was a B-52 navigator refused to drop on Hanoi, turned
the mission down, said he didn't want to kill wimmen, kids, group of
local Catholic nuns wanted to present a letter to him via our chain of
command commending him. We turned them down.

Later, Communists were still active. Used to show up at the base gates
monthly to protest USAF being there, complained about all the planes
flying, listed what took off when, where they flew to. Usually was a
pretty complete list. Passed over a petition and complaint and went on
their way. I guess they're still doing it, who knows...

Steve Hix

August 22nd 08, 07:12 PM

In article >,
(Richard Casady) wrote:
>
> It is easier to avoid a snake than shoot it.

I've lived in rattlesnake country almost all my life. Never a problem,
as long I take some care turning over rocks or logs in the spring, when
the hatchlings are first out. If I could just convince the local bull
snakes to move in on the gophers...

> Lions do not have an extensive record for attacking people.

That has been changing in the past decade or so; several attacks,
including some fatalities, in California and Colorado in the past few
years.

Their numbers have been rising pretty well, and they really do seem to
be losing their fear of humans at the same time.

> Bears do.

Dean A. Markley

August 22nd 08, 09:24 PM

Dan wrote:
> frank wrote:
>> On Aug 21, 8:03 pm, "Dean A. Markley" > wrote:
>>> korben dallas wrote:
>>>> eyeball wrote:
>>>>>> lol "john pumpkin from dumb****, ga warns solar system"
>>>>> You live in Moscow, komrade?
>>>> this question is actually deeper than you might know, sonny :)))
>>>> live? well, i work in oregon. of course, i have to kind of "live"
>>>> there.
>>>> or, more precisely, i "reside" there, since applying the word "live" to
>>>> anywhere in the usa is like the greatest insult to life ever. nobody
>>>> lives in the usa.
>>>> i do in fact live in moscow when i go there about once a year on
>>>> vacation.
>>> What part of Moscow do you live in? Which McDonalds is the closest to
>>> you? Do the Russians prefer Coke or Pepsi?
>>
>> Wait, we got Ruskies in Idaho? First they show up in Georgia, now
>> they're in Idaho? What the hell they do, take the Amtrak from
>> Berkeley?
>>
>> Damn Bush and his black helicopters, where's my militia alert list....
>
> If we give them Sacramento and Newark will they give us Georgia back?
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Why do we want Georgia back? LOL

Dean A. Markley

August 22nd 08, 09:26 PM

Richard Casady wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), george >
> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 22, 6:10 am, "William Black" >
>> wrote:[i]
>>> "Rob Arndt" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
>>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
>>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
>>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>>>
>>> ----------------------------
>>>
>>> That's great, right up to when you realise that the bear has a gun too,
>>> and so does his wife and his kids.
>>>
>> I can't work out as to why his only solution to a wild animal is to
>> destroy it.
>> The simile is absurd
>
> Of the critters in North America, only bears, possibly moose, are
> dangerous enough to occasionally need shooting in self defence. All
> the rest get a pass unless one needs to eat them.
>
> Casady
Disagree. Ever have a Northern Banded Watersnake come at you? Not big,
not poisonous but mean and scary as all hell.

george

August 22nd 08, 09:34 PM

On Aug 23, 8:26 am, "Dean A. Markley" > wrote:

> Disagree. Ever have a Northern Banded Watersnake come at you? Not big,
> not poisonous but mean and scary as all hell.

That's why I like living here.
Our only snakes are either in parliament or Psychology departments

Richard Casady

August 22nd 08, 10:19 PM

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:26:36 -0400, "Dean A. Markley"
> wrote:

>Richard Casady wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), george >
>> wrote:
>> [i]
>>> On Aug 22, 6:10 am, "William Black" >
>>> wrote:
>>>> "Rob Arndt" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
>>>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
>>>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
>>>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------
>>>>
>>>> That's great, right up to when you realise that the bear has a gun too,
>>>> and so does his wife and his kids.
>>>>
>>> I can't work out as to why his only solution to a wild animal is to
>>> destroy it.
>>> The simile is absurd
>>
>> Of the critters in North America, only bears, possibly moose, are
>> dangerous enough to occasionally need shooting in self defence. All
>> the rest get a pass unless one needs to eat them.
>>
>> Casady
>Disagree. Ever have a Northern Banded Watersnake come at you? Not big,
>not poisonous but mean and scary as all hell.

Don't need a gun to kill one. It's a small snake not a Cape Buffalo. I
would hit it with my stick and not draw even if I was carrying. If it
is moving it would be a difficult target. Unless you are expecting a
war, the defence gun will likely be a pistol. A snake is a difficult
target for a gun and dead easy for a cane. I had a rabid coon in the
house and I killed it with a baseball bat, without spilling any blood.
Maybe I used a golf club. Whichever. I have both lying around, handy
in case I want to hit something.

Casady

dott.Piergiorgio

August 23rd 08, 01:32 AM

Richard Casady ha scritto:
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:26:36 -0400, "Dean A. Markley"
> > wrote:
>
>> Richard Casady wrote:
>>> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT), george >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Aug 22, 6:10 am, "William Black" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> "Rob Arndt" > wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do
>>>>> you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his
>>>>> gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around
>>>>> you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> That's great, right up to when you realise that the bear has a gun too,
>>>>> and so does his wife and his kids.
>>>>>
>>>> I can't work out as to why his only solution to a wild animal is to
>>>> destroy it.
>>>> The simile is absurd
>>> Of the critters in North America, only bears, possibly moose, are
>>> dangerous enough to occasionally need shooting in self defence. All
>>> the rest get a pass unless one needs to eat them. [I haven't shot any
>>> game in about thirty years.]
>>>
>>> Casady
>> Disagree. Ever have a Northern Banded Watersnake come at you? Not big,
>> not poisonous but mean and scary as all hell.
>
> Don't need a gun to kill one. It's a small snake not a Cape Buffalo. I
> would hit it with my stick and not draw even if I was carrying. If it
> is moving it would be a difficult target. Unless you are expecting a
> war, the defence gun will likely be a pistol. A snake is a difficult
> target for a gun and dead easy for a cane.

Pleaseeee..... I have haved here "close & personal" disagreement between
me, Vipers (Aspis) and my pickaxe handle and I can assure that isn't an
easy fight, because the basic tactics, somewhat opposite the "cross the
T" (you must be alongside, having more target area to aim and out of the
bite arc) are too well understood by these little, fast & nimbly 10"-14"
long reptilians whose countermanouvre really too well and in many cases
you must jump sideways to avoid the bite to the bare foot (here in
southern Italy you really need to wear sandals or even be barefoot
indoors, trust me...)

It's a really nonsense that here in Italy the "DDs" (that's, porcupines
& the tiny European hedgehogs) can't be privately owned, even if you
have a really large garden...

(Now the fellow s.m.n.ers surely understand why I have my peculiar
opinion on the whole counter-speedboat tactics & equipment issue..)

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

[email protected]

August 23rd 08, 11:42 AM

> Of the critters in North America, only bears, possibly moose, are
> dangerous enough to occasionally need shooting in self defence. All
> the rest get a pass unless one needs to eat them. [I haven't shot any
> game in about thirty years.]

Wolverines? Although no occurence of attack on humans listed, watching
their tracks precisely match the ones you left on a prior hike makes
you wonder whether you're the game.

Richard Casady

August 23rd 08, 06:38 PM

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:12:35 -0700, Steve Hix
> wrote:

>In article >,
> (Richard Casady) wrote:
>>
>> It is easier to avoid a snake than shoot it.
>
>I've lived in rattlesnake country almost all my life. Never a problem,
>as long I take some care turning over rocks or logs in the spring, when
>the hatchlings are first out. If I could just convince the local bull
>snakes to move in on the gophers...

Many western ranches do nothing to discourage rattlers in the barn.
They like the rodents less.

Casady

[email protected][_2_]

August 23rd 08, 06:45 PM

On Aug 23, 1:38*pm, (Richard Casady)
wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:12:35 -0700, Steve Hix
>
> > wrote:
> >In article >,
> > (Richard Casady) wrote:
>
> >> It is easier to avoid a snake than shoot it.
>
> >I've lived in rattlesnake country almost all my life. Never a problem,
> >as long I take some care turning over rocks or logs in the spring, when
> >the hatchlings are first out. If I could just convince the local bull
> >snakes to move in on the gophers...
>
> Many western ranches do nothing to discourage rattlers in the barn.
> They like the rodents less.
>
> Casady

Uh, not if they have livestock. Rattlesnake bites on cows are
expensive.

Richard Casady

August 23rd 08, 08:46 PM

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 10:45:20 -0700 (PDT), "
> wrote:

>On Aug 23, 1:38*pm, (Richard Casady)
>wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:12:35 -0700, Steve Hix
>>
>> > wrote:
>> >In article >,
>> > (Richard Casady) wrote:
>>
>> >> It is easier to avoid a snake than shoot it.
>>
>> >I've lived in rattlesnake country almost all my life. Never a problem,
>> >as long I take some care turning over rocks or logs in the spring, when
>> >the hatchlings are first out. If I could just convince the local bull
>> >snakes to move in on the gophers...
>>
>> Many western ranches do nothing to discourage rattlers in the barn.
>> They like the rodents less.
>>
>> Casady
>
>
> Uh, not if they have livestock. Rattlesnake bites on cows are
>expensive.

Livestock are in the pasture. Hay and equipment are in the barn. Any
snake in the barn is not in the pasture.

Casady

Steve Hix

August 23rd 08, 09:34 PM

In article
>,
wrote:

> > Of the critters in North America, only bears, possibly moose, are
> > dangerous enough to occasionally need shooting in self defence. All
> > the rest get a pass unless one needs to eat them. [I haven't shot any
> > game in about thirty years.]
>
> Wolverines? Although no occurence of attack on humans listed, watching
> their tracks precisely match the ones you left on a prior hike makes
> you wonder whether you're the game.

They're probably deciding to save you for later.

Then get distracted by something easier to catch and eat.

Steve Hix

August 23rd 08, 09:36 PM

In article >,
(Richard Casady) wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:12:35 -0700, Steve Hix
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > (Richard Casady) wrote:
> >>
> >> It is easier to avoid a snake than shoot it.
> >
> >I've lived in rattlesnake country almost all my life. Never a problem,
> >as long I take some care turning over rocks or logs in the spring, when
> >the hatchlings are first out. If I could just convince the local bull
> >snakes to move in on the gophers...
>
> Many western ranches do nothing to discourage rattlers in the barn.
> They like the rodents less.

Non-venemous rodent-eating snakes would be far preferable to
rattlesnakes, at least where you spend much time working.

Local ranchers that I know are fine with gopher/bull/corn/etc snakes in
and around the barns. Rattlesnakes, not so much.

Steve Hix

August 23rd 08, 09:37 PM

In article >,
(Richard Casady) wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 10:45:20 -0700 (PDT), "
> > wrote:
>
> >On Aug 23, 1:38*pm, (Richard Casady)
> >wrote:
> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:12:35 -0700, Steve Hix
> >>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >In article >,
> >> > (Richard Casady) wrote:
> >>
> >> >> It is easier to avoid a snake than shoot it.
> >>
> >> >I've lived in rattlesnake country almost all my life. Never a problem,
> >> >as long I take some care turning over rocks or logs in the spring, when
> >> >the hatchlings are first out. If I could just convince the local bull
> >> >snakes to move in on the gophers...
> >>
> >> Many western ranches do nothing to discourage rattlers in the barn.
> >> They like the rodents less.
> >>
> >> Casady
> >
> >
> > Uh, not if they have livestock. Rattlesnake bites on cows are
> >expensive.
>
> Livestock are in the pasture. Hay and equipment are in the barn. Any
> snake in the barn is not in the pasture.

Never worked with milking cows, or goats, or had horses? They all end up
in and around the barns regularly.

[email protected][_2_]

August 23rd 08, 09:40 PM

On Aug 23, 3:46*pm, (Richard Casady)
wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 10:45:20 -0700 (PDT), "
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Aug 23, 1:38*pm, (Richard Casady)
> >wrote:
> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:12:35 -0700, Steve Hix
>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >In article >,
> >> > (Richard Casady) wrote:
>
> >> >> It is easier to avoid a snake than shoot it.
>
> >> >I've lived in rattlesnake country almost all my life. Never a problem,
> >> >as long I take some care turning over rocks or logs in the spring, when
> >> >the hatchlings are first out. If I could just convince the local bull
> >> >snakes to move in on the gophers...
>
> >> Many western ranches do nothing to discourage rattlers in the barn.
> >> They like the rodents less.
>
> >> Casady
>
> > * * *Uh, not if they have livestock. Rattlesnake bites on cows are
> >expensive.
>
> Livestock are in the pasture. Hay and equipment are in the barn. Any
> snake in the barn is not in the pasture.
>
> Casady

Not so much.....many livestocks end up in or around barns
fairly regularly. I've known a lot of farmers and ranchers.....they
put up with nonvenomous snakes. They kill venomous ones. Besides, most
ratters and mousers that I've seen are cats....with the occasional
terrier type dog.
And if they keep horses, all snakes get disposed of.....horses
really don't like snakes.

Richard Casady

August 24th 08, 12:38 AM

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 13:37:16 -0700, Steve Hix
> wrote:

>In article >,
> (Richard Casady) wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 10:45:20 -0700 (PDT), "
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >On Aug 23, 1:38*pm, (Richard Casady)
>> >wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:12:35 -0700, Steve Hix
>> >>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >In article >,
>> >> > (Richard Casady) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> It is easier to avoid a snake than shoot it.
>> >>
>> >> >I've lived in rattlesnake country almost all my life. Never a problem,
>> >> >as long I take some care turning over rocks or logs in the spring, when
>> >> >the hatchlings are first out. If I could just convince the local bull
>> >> >snakes to move in on the gophers...
>> >>
>> >> Many western ranches do nothing to discourage rattlers in the barn.
>> >> They like the rodents less.
>> >>
>> >> Casady
>> >
>> >
>> > Uh, not if they have livestock. Rattlesnake bites on cows are
>> >expensive.
>>
>> Livestock are in the pasture. Hay and equipment are in the barn. Any
>> snake in the barn is not in the pasture.
>
>Never worked with milking cows, or goats, or had horses? They all end up
>in and around the barns regularly.

Western ranches few to no milking cows, who are not found in barns in
any case. They do have purpose built milking sheds, where they do have
dairy cattle, in places like Iowa. As for horses, modern ranches may
not have any, although they all have at least one pickup per person.
You are about as likely to find a modern cowboy in an airplane as on a
horse.

Casady

Steve Hix

August 24th 08, 03:01 AM

In article >,
(Richard Casady) wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 13:37:16 -0700, Steve Hix
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > (Richard Casady) wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 10:45:20 -0700 (PDT), "
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Aug 23, 1:38*pm, (Richard Casady)
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:12:35 -0700, Steve Hix
> >> >>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >In article >,
> >> >> > (Richard Casady) wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >> It is easier to avoid a snake than shoot it.
> >> >>
> >> >> >I've lived in rattlesnake country almost all my life. Never a problem,
> >> >> >as long I take some care turning over rocks or logs in the spring, when
> >> >> >the hatchlings are first out. If I could just convince the local bull
> >> >> >snakes to move in on the gophers...
> >> >>
> >> >> Many western ranches do nothing to discourage rattlers in the barn.
> >> >> They like the rodents less.
> >> >>
> >> >> Casady
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Uh, not if they have livestock. Rattlesnake bites on cows are
> >> >expensive.
> >>
> >> Livestock are in the pasture. Hay and equipment are in the barn. Any
> >> snake in the barn is not in the pasture.
> >
> >Never worked with milking cows, or goats, or had horses? They all end up
> >in and around the barns regularly.
>
> Western ranches few to no milking cows, who are not found in barns in
> any case. They do have purpose built milking sheds, where they do have
> dairy cattle, in places like Iowa.

It's not all King or Harris Ranch operations; there are a lot of small
operations out here, and some of them do have a couple of milk cows for
their own use. It's not like snakes can't wander into a milking shed,
either.

> As for horses, modern ranches may not have any,

This would surprise the smallish horse-oriented operations out here.
Perhaps you should let them know that they must be raising some other
sort of livestock.

> although they all have at least one pickup per person.
> You are about as likely to find a modern cowboy in an airplane as on a
> horse.

Not out here in the central California coastal range. There's more to
life than multi-million acre range, you know.