Fun toy to have

[john smith]

Remote-Controlled Helicopter Toys Recalled by Innovage Due to Fire and
Burn Hazards

In cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
(CPSC), Innovage LLC, of Foothill Ranch, Calif., is voluntarily
recalling about 685,000 "Sky Scrambler" and "The Sharper Image" Wireless
Indoor Helicopters. The rechargeable lithium ion battery inside the
helicopters can overheat, catch fire, and ignite nearby combustibles,
posing fire and burn hazards to consumers.

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

John Smith wrote:
> Remote-Controlled Helicopter Toys Recalled by Innovage Due to Fire and
> Burn Hazards
>
> In cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
> (CPSC), Innovage LLC, of Foothill Ranch, Calif., is voluntarily
> recalling about 685,000 "Sky Scrambler" and "The Sharper Image" Wireless
> Indoor Helicopters. The rechargeable lithium ion battery inside the
> helicopters can overheat, catch fire, and ignite nearby combustibles,
> posing fire and burn hazards to consumers.


Face it. The Chinese are attacking us. They are just being very clever
about it.

[Frank Olson]

Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:

> Face it. The Chinese are attacking us. They are just being very clever
> about it.


I'll say... It's time for Bush to start a "War on Trade". First
item... invade Canada. Who needs pesky NAFTA?

[Lou]

On Aug 19, 10:51 am, Frank Olson
> wrote:
> Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
> > Face it. The Chinese are attacking us. They are just being very clever
> > about it.
>
> I'll say... It's time for Bush to start a "War on Trade". First
> item... invade Canada. Who needs pesky NAFTA?

Well, with the price of fuel, Canada makes sense.
Lou

[Neil Gould]

Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
> John Smith wrote:
>> Remote-Controlled Helicopter Toys Recalled by Innovage Due to Fire
>> and Burn Hazards
>>
>> In cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
>> (CPSC), Innovage LLC, of Foothill Ranch, Calif., is voluntarily
>> recalling about 685,000 "Sky Scrambler" and "The Sharper Image"
>> Wireless Indoor Helicopters. The rechargeable lithium ion battery
>> inside the helicopters can overheat, catch fire, and ignite nearby
>> combustibles, posing fire and burn hazards to consumers.
>
>
> Face it. The Chinese are attacking us. They are just being very clever
> about it.
>
They sure are. Rather than correct our bogus design specifications to
something less dangerous, they deliver exactly what we order and let us hang
ourselves. Talk about good use of resources!

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Neil Gould wrote:
> Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
>> John Smith wrote:
>>> Remote-Controlled Helicopter Toys Recalled by Innovage Due to Fire
>>> and Burn Hazards
>>>
>>> In cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
>>> (CPSC), Innovage LLC, of Foothill Ranch, Calif., is voluntarily
>>> recalling about 685,000 "Sky Scrambler" and "The Sharper Image"
>>> Wireless Indoor Helicopters. The rechargeable lithium ion battery
>>> inside the helicopters can overheat, catch fire, and ignite nearby
>>> combustibles, posing fire and burn hazards to consumers.
>>
>> Face it. The Chinese are attacking us. They are just being very clever
>> about it.
>>
> They sure are. Rather than correct our bogus design specifications to
> something less dangerous, they deliver exactly what we order and let us hang
> ourselves. Talk about good use of resources!
>
>
>
>
>

Do you think for a second that Innovage LLC
(http://www.macraesbluebook.com/search/company.cfm?company=646435)
designed anything other than the packaging and a horrible website
(follow the link above)? The called a manufacturer or they called them
and said, "We have made a cheap toy helicopter. Would you like to sell
it you running dog cap^H^H^H^H^H fine American Marketing company."

On the larger picture do you think Mattel or any other toy company told
them to use lead based paint. I've never seen that even suggested.

They are doing exactly what Japan used to do and what we did 30 or 40
years ago. Cut corners to save money.

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2008-08-19 06:40:10 -0700, John Smith > said:

> Remote-Controlled Helicopter Toys Recalled by Innovage Due to Fire and
> Burn Hazards
>
> In cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
> (CPSC), Innovage LLC, of Foothill Ranch, Calif., is voluntarily
> recalling about 685,000 "Sky Scrambler" and "The Sharper Image" Wireless
> Indoor Helicopters. The rechargeable lithium ion battery inside the
> helicopters can overheat, catch fire, and ignite nearby combustibles,
> posing fire and burn hazards to consumers.

Cool. A great nerd toy. But do you know how to make an exploding floppy
disk with nail polish remover and some other ingredients?

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[john smith]

In article <200808191636137987-christophercampbell@hotmailcom>,
C J Campbell > wrote:

> On 2008-08-19 06:40:10 -0700, John Smith > said:
>
> > Remote-Controlled Helicopter Toys Recalled by Innovage Due to Fire and
> > Burn Hazards
> >
> > In cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
> > (CPSC), Innovage LLC, of Foothill Ranch, Calif., is voluntarily
> > recalling about 685,000 "Sky Scrambler" and "The Sharper Image" Wireless
> > Indoor Helicopters. The rechargeable lithium ion battery inside the
> > helicopters can overheat, catch fire, and ignite nearby combustibles,
> > posing fire and burn hazards to consumers.
>
> Cool. A great nerd toy. But do you know how to make an exploding floppy
> disk with nail polish remover and some other ingredients?

No, but I am willing to learn!

Nail polish remover is acetone, a floppy disk is mylar with a metalic
coating. What are the other ingredients? Potassium Iodide?

[More_Flaps]

On Aug 20, 11:36*am, C J Campbell >
wrote:
> On 2008-08-19 06:40:10 -0700, John Smith > said:
>
> > Remote-Controlled Helicopter Toys Recalled by Innovage Due to Fire and
> > Burn Hazards
>
> > * * In cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
> > (CPSC), Innovage LLC, of Foothill Ranch, Calif., is voluntarily
> > recalling about 685,000 "Sky Scrambler" and "The Sharper Image" Wireless
> > Indoor Helicopters. The rechargeable lithium ion battery inside the
> > helicopters can overheat, catch fire, and ignite nearby combustibles,
> > posing fire and burn hazards to consumers.
>
> Cool. A great nerd toy. But do you know how to make an exploding floppy
> disk with nail polish remover and some other ingredients?
>
>

You are showing your age.,,, Who uses floppy didks these days?
Exploding USB devices would be be better.

Cheers

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> They are doing exactly what Japan used to do and what we did 30 or 40
> years ago. Cut corners to save money.

Um, well, yes. That's how the system is supposed to work. Money flows
toward the lowest cost of production because that's what we (consumers)
demand.

However, if a factory produces shoddy products, no one buys their junk and
they go out of business. It's a system always seeking balance, and (best of
all) it finds this balance automatically, without human oversight.

It only gets really screwed up when gummint ("for the sake of the children",
always) gets involved.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
Ercoupe N94856
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> They are doing exactly what Japan used to do and what we did 30 or 40
>> years ago. Cut corners to save money.
>
> Um, well, yes. That's how the system is supposed to work. Money flows
> toward the lowest cost of production because that's what we (consumers)
> demand.
>
> However, if a factory produces shoddy products, no one buys their junk
> and they go out of business. It's a system always seeking balance, and
> (best of all) it finds this balance automatically, without human oversight.
>
> It only gets really screwed up when gummint ("for the sake of the
> children", always) gets involved.

I understand that you are a free market guy and so am I. But there are
certain things that it is just more efficient for we as consumers to
outsource to either the government or some other centralized source.

Am I expected to have a lab at home to check for toxic chemicals on my
kids toys?

The model of Underwriters Laboratories works quite well or at least used
to when anyone paid attention to it.

[Jose Jimenez]

> However, if a factory produces shoddy products, no one buys their junk
> and they go out of business.

Like Microsoft... :-P

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2008-08-19 19:19:35 -0700, John Smith > said:

> In article <200808191636137987-christophercampbell@hotmailcom>,
> C J Campbell > wrote:
>
>> On 2008-08-19 06:40:10 -0700, John Smith > said:
>>
>>> Remote-Controlled Helicopter Toys Recalled by Innovage Due to Fire and
>>> Burn Hazards
>>>
>>> In cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
>>> (CPSC), Innovage LLC, of Foothill Ranch, Calif., is voluntarily
>>> recalling about 685,000 "Sky Scrambler" and "The Sharper Image" Wireless
>>> Indoor Helicopters. The rechargeable lithium ion battery inside the
>>> helicopters can overheat, catch fire, and ignite nearby combustibles,
>>> posing fire and burn hazards to consumers.
>>
>> Cool. A great nerd toy. But do you know how to make an exploding floppy
>> disk with nail polish remover and some other ingredients?
>
> No, but I am willing to learn!
>
> Nail polish remover is acetone, a floppy disk is mylar with a metalic
> coating. What are the other ingredients? Potassium Iodide?

I am not going to publish bomb-making techniques, even on Usenet. I am
sure the information is available for anyone who is willing to look for
it. Suffice it to say that it works on the same principle as
strike-anywhere matches, when the drive heads scrape the surface of the
disk. The nail polish remover is merely a solvent for the active
ingredient.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> Am I expected to have a lab at home to check for toxic chemicals on my
> kids toys?
>
> The model of Underwriters Laboratories works quite well or at least used
> to when anyone paid attention to it.

Correct. And, now that the problem has caused the loss of millions of
dollars in sales, the shoddy factories have been fixed, and the problem
rectified. They system worked.

Serious question: I never heard of any kids being hurt in this lead-paint
situation -- did you?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
Ercoupe N94856
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

>> However, if a factory produces shoddy products, no one buys their junk
>> and they go out of business.
>
> Like Microsoft... :-P

No.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
Ercoupe N94856
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> Am I expected to have a lab at home to check for toxic chemicals on my
>> kids toys?
>>
>> The model of Underwriters Laboratories works quite well or at least
>> used to when anyone paid attention to it.
>
> Correct. And, now that the problem has caused the loss of millions of
> dollars in sales, the shoddy factories have been fixed, and the problem
> rectified. They system worked.

Don't forget China also put some guy to death for it to. But the system
isn't fixed and never can be as long as the country we are buying from
isn't working under the same set of rules.

>
> Serious question: I never heard of any kids being hurt in this
> lead-paint situation -- did you?

No, but Lead poisoning doesn't show up right away.

[Jon Woellhaf[_2_]]

"Gig 601Xl Builder" wrote, "... Lead poisoning doesn't show up right away."

I wondered for years if all the solder fumes I inhaled in my youth ...

Ah, what were we talking about?

[Bob Noel]

In article <nqWqk.306314$yE1.76131@attbi_s21>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> >> However, if a factory produces shoddy products, no one buys their junk
> >> and they go out of business.
> >
> > Like Microsoft... :-P
>
> No.

Like that old saying "No one ever got fired for buying IBM equipment", no
one gets fired for buying that microsoft junk.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[john smith]

In article <_pWqk.251261$TT4.150351@attbi_s22>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Serious question: I never heard of any kids being hurt in this lead-paint
> situation -- did you?

An interesting read is the consumer products safety commission website.
There are a number of recalls listed due to lead paint.

http://cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prerel.html

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> Like that old saying "No one ever got fired for buying IBM equipment", no
> one gets fired for buying that microsoft junk.

I've switched over almost entirely to Vista (three laptops, two desktops --
still have three desktops running XP) and like it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
Ercoupe N94856
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Noel]

In article <jc3rk.306918$yE1.154432@attbi_s21>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > Like that old saying "No one ever got fired for buying IBM equipment", no
> > one gets fired for buying that microsoft junk.
>
> I've switched over almost entirely to Vista (three laptops, two desktops --
> still have three desktops running XP) and like it.

you are a sick sick man.... :-)

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

[Stella Starr]

Jay Honeck wrote:
I never heard of any kids being hurt in this
> lead-paint situation -- did you?

http://www.idph.state.il.us/public/press06/10.24.06GovLead.htm

"Across the country approximately 310,000 children younger than
six-years-old are poisoned by lead each year..."


http://www.idph.state.il.us/public/press06/10.24.06GovLead.htm

Last year's record low, according to New York State Health Department,
was only 1,970 kids poisoned by lead.


http://www.oregonlive.com/business/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/business/1218682520112120.xml&coll=7

Boy who swallowed metal trinket from a gumball machine still has
elevated levels of lead in his body and some short-term memory loss.


http://wcco.com/local/lead.testing.mall.2.362515.html

"4-year-old Jarnell Graham died when he swallowed a little charm from an
inexpensive bracelet..."

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

>> I've switched over almost entirely to Vista (three laptops, two
>> desktops --
>> still have three desktops running XP) and like it.
>
> you are a sick sick man.... :-)

It's fast, it's intuitive, it's easy, and it's cheap, relatively speaking.

Actually, the only gripe I've had with Vista is getting XP machines to
work/print on a Vista network, which has been stupidly hard. The OS itself
has been utterly bulletproof.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
Ercoupe N94856
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> I never heard of any kids being hurt in this
>> lead-paint situation -- did you?

<A bunch of unrelated stuff snipped>

I find nothing relevant here, Stella, unless you'd like to discuss some
unrelated lead-paint-scare press releases from (among others) the most
corrupt politician in Illinois history, with the possible exception of King
Daley?

Let's start again: I was asking about the specific example of the recalled
Chinese toys that were painted with lead paint. Did anyone hear anything
about anyone being injured by this event? I can find nothing about any
injuries in the media.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
Ercoupe N94856
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[John Smith]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Let's start again: I was asking about the specific example of the
> recalled Chinese toys that were painted with lead paint. Did anyone
> hear anything about anyone being injured by this event?

Luckily, no. So, luckily, the governement acted timely. However, there
have been intoxinations caused by long time exposure to lead in the
past. The best known example is probably the antique Rome. No need to
repeat every mistake.

For more information about the toxity of lead:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead#Health_effects

[John Smith]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> I've switched over almost entirely to Vista [...] and like it.

Just as you like to drive a Cessna spam can, too, because you haven't
flown a real airplane yet. (Such as a Yak 52, Extra 300, Cap 232, Pitts
or the like.)

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-08-21, John Smith > wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>> I've switched over almost entirely to Vista [...] and like it.
> Just as you like to drive a Cessna spam can, too, because you haven't
> flown a real airplane yet. (Such as a Yak 52, Extra 300, Cap 232, Pitts
> or the like.)

Actually, he's got two airplanes, a Piper Pathfinder and an Ercoupe.

I wouldn't mind flying the "real airplanes" you list, but I've got no
interest at all in aerobatics: I get motion sickness with any significant
positive or negative G.

There's more to real aviation than aerobatics.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

[John Smith]

Jay Maynard wrote:

> I wouldn't mind flying the "real airplanes" you list, but I've got no
> interest at all in aerobatics:

Actually, aerobatics planes are a delight to fly even if you prefer
straight and level. I usually rent a Cap10 to make simple trips, just
because it is so much more fun to fly a responsive plane. Not sure it
would make a good IFR platform, though.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Jay Maynard wrote:
>>> I've switched over almost entirely to Vista [...] and like it.
>> Just as you like to drive a Cessna spam can, too, because you haven't
>> flown a real airplane yet. (Such as a Yak 52, Extra 300, Cap 232, Pitts
>> or the like.)
>
> Actually, he's got two airplanes, a Piper Pathfinder and an Ercoupe.
>
> I wouldn't mind flying the "real airplanes" you list, but I've got no
> interest at all in aerobatics: I get motion sickness with any significant
> positive or negative G.
>
> There's more to real aviation than aerobatics.


I was with an instructor once who wanted to show me "how to turn around really
quickly". His maneuver was a skidded turn.

Anybody can jerk an airplane around the sky with the thought of inducing G. I
think it takes more skill to fly smoothly. My remarks are aimed at the duffers
among us (the yank and bank crowd); not the folks who actually practice
aerobatics to perfect their maneuvers.

Ask a passenger who the best pilot is and they'll say it was the one who made
the best landing... even if it ended up at the local USAF base instead of the
adjacent civilian airport. At least they'll say that until they realize they're
in the wrong place. <G>



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[john smith]

In article <ol7rk.252117$TT4.151102@attbi_s22>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> The OS itself has been utterly bulletproof.

Not any more!
Last week it was made public that someone has figured out a way to
remotely disable all of VISTA machine's security features over the web.

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> Like that old saying "No one ever got fired for buying IBM equipment", no
>> one gets fired for buying that microsoft junk.
>
> I've switched over almost entirely to Vista (three laptops, two desktops
> -- still have three desktops running XP) and like it.

You are in the minority. I saw a report on slash dot that 2/3s of
computers that had Vista on them now have reverse migrated back to XP.

[[email protected]]

John Smith > wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>> Let's start again: I was asking about the specific example of the
>> recalled Chinese toys that were painted with lead paint. Did anyone
>> hear anything about anyone being injured by this event?
>
> Luckily, no. So, luckily, the governement acted timely. However, there
> have been intoxinations caused by long time exposure to lead in the
> past. The best known example is probably the antique Rome. No need to
> repeat every mistake.
>
> For more information about the toxity of lead:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead#Health_effects

The majority of lead poisoning cases in children in the US are among
immigrant children treated with folk remedies.

Here's just one article about it; there are lots:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22782271/

In the Southwest, almost all cases fall into this catagory.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:zs7rk.307204$yE1.53876@attbi_s21:

>> I never heard of any kids being hurt in this
>>> lead-paint situation -- did you?
>
> <A bunch of unrelated stuff snipped>
>
> I find nothing relevant here, Stella, unless you'd like to discuss
> some unrelated lead-paint-scare press releases from (among others) the
> most corrupt politician in Illinois history, with the possible
> exception of King Daley?
>
> Let's start again: I was asking about the specific example of the
> recalled Chinese toys that were painted with lead paint. Did anyone
> hear anything about anyone being injured by this event? I can find
> nothing about any injuries in the media.

Yeah, but you only look at faux news, so...


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:ol7rk.252117$TT4.151102@attbi_s22:

>>> I've switched over almost entirely to Vista (three laptops, two
>>> desktops --
>>> still have three desktops running XP) and like it.
>>
>> you are a sick sick man.... :-)
>
> It's fast, it's intuitive, it's easy, and it's cheap, relatively
> speaking.
>
> Actually, the only gripe I've had with Vista is getting XP machines to
> work/print on a Vista network, which has been stupidly hard. The OS
> itself has been utterly bulletproof.


Perfect for you, a system for idiots


Bertie

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> You are in the minority. I saw a report on slash dot that 2/3s of
> computers that had Vista on them now have reverse migrated back to XP.

Perhaps, but given the thousands of Vista machines that are sold daily, my
minority status won't last long. As is always the case with OS upgrades,
there is now a growing group of young computer owners who have known nothing
but Vista, who will regard XP the way we regard Windows 3.1 or DOS.

I have found nothing about Vista to complain about, other than the
aforementioned networking-with-XP-machines difficulty. It's stable, easy to
use, fast, and offers some enhancements and eye-candy that XP didn't have.

More importantly, I found the migration from XP to Vista to be completely
intuitive, with no instruction or help screens required. I just got to
work, and the OS simply disappeared, as every good OS should.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
Ercoupe N94856
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> You are in the minority. I saw a report on slash dot that 2/3s of
>> computers that had Vista on them now have reverse migrated back to XP.
>
> Perhaps, but given the thousands of Vista machines that are sold daily,
> my minority status won't last long. As is always the case with OS
> upgrades, there is now a growing group of young computer owners who have
> known nothing but Vista, who will regard XP the way we regard Windows
> 3.1 or DOS.
>
> I have found nothing about Vista to complain about, other than the
> aforementioned networking-with-XP-machines difficulty. It's stable,
> easy to use, fast, and offers some enhancements and eye-candy that XP
> didn't have.
>
> More importantly, I found the migration from XP to Vista to be
> completely intuitive, with no instruction or help screens required. I
> just got to work, and the OS simply disappeared, as every good OS should.


I mis-remembered the story I quoted. The actual story was the 35% of new
Windows computers are downgraded either at the factory or by the user
shortly after purchase from Vista to XP.

So there are still thousands of XP machines shipping and those are
people that made the decision to not use Vista.

I tested Vista on one machine in our office. It ran slower than the same
machine with XP. There was a lack of drivers for some fairly common
hardware and this was about 8 months after Vista shipped.

MS pretty much knows it built a dog. That's why they have kept pushing
back the drop dead date on XP.

[gatt[_5_]]

Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:

> I tested Vista on one machine in our office. It ran slower than the same
> machine with XP. There was a lack of drivers for some fairly common
> hardware and this was about 8 months after Vista shipped.
>
> MS pretty much knows it built a dog. That's why they have kept pushing
> back the drop dead date on XP.

This will seem obvious as written, but it seems to escape many of the
people I talk to on a day-to-day basis:

Most of the machines that Vista is meant to run on haven't been built
(or, in fact, designed) yet. That includes the systems presently being
sold.

Meanwhile -MOST- early-stage software products, especially Microsoft
OSes and web browers, are buggy and insecure crap for at least the first
year after they're released because X-million people haven't found
X-million ways to break them.

I work with a guy who actually CAMPED OUT for the midnight release of
Windows 95 at Incredible Universe. He CAMPED OUT for an operating system.

And, wouldn't you be surprised; he's still single. But he's got a
killer new Mac on which to play World of Warcraft and Flight Simulator X.

-c

[Martin Hotze[_2_]]

gatt schrieb:
> And, wouldn't you be surprised; he's still single. But he's got a
> killer new Mac on which to play World of Warcraft and Flight Simulator X.

he probably wouldn't be able to afford that MAC being married. :-)

#m

[gatt[_5_]]

Martin Hotze wrote:
> gatt schrieb:
>
>> And, wouldn't you be surprised; he's still single. But he's got a
>> killer new Mac on which to play World of Warcraft and Flight Simulator X.
>
> he probably wouldn't be able to afford that MAC being married. :-)

Very true. Or the plasma screen, or Wii, or PS3, Rock Band, or Guitar
Hero III...

[Neil Gould]

Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
>
> I mis-remembered the story I quoted. The actual story was the 35% of
> new Windows computers are downgraded either at the factory or by
> the user shortly after purchase from Vista to XP.
>
That sounds like an old story. Checked lately?

> I tested Vista on one machine in our office. It ran slower than the
> same machine with XP.
>
Which makes your experience about 2 years old. Vista has a much larger
footprint than XP, so you need more of a system to run it efficiently. OTOH,
that's been the case with every new OS for the last couple of decades.

> There was a lack of drivers for some fairly
> common hardware and this was about 8 months after Vista shipped.
>
At least some of this is marketing BS. I have a machine that has been
running Vista for about a year, and according to HP, there are no compatible
printer drivers for my printer. Of course, they recommended "upgrading" to a
newer model printer. Well, I just happened to notice that the drivers for
the "newer model" were _exactly the same ones_ as for the printer I had, but
HP's brain-dead installation program wouldn't install the older ones. So, I
installed it manually (via regedit), and it's been working flawlessly since
then.

I'm no fan of Vista, but then I'm no fan of XP or of OSX either. Those of us
that need a lot out of an OS can break any of them without much effort. But,
they'll all handle more than what the vast majority of users need.

> MS pretty much knows it built a dog. That's why they have kept pushing
> back the drop dead date on XP.
>
What drop dead date on XP are you referring to? The drop dead date for
Windows 2000 isn't even here yet, and the drop dead date for Win98 was less
than a year ago. XP has a long way to go before it's deprecated.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:AFjrk.307998$yE1.76961@attbi_s21:

>> You are in the minority. I saw a report on slash dot that 2/3s of
>> computers that had Vista on them now have reverse migrated back to
>> XP.
>
> Perhaps, but given the thousands of Vista machines that are sold
> daily, my minority status won't last long. As is always the case with
> OS upgrades, there is now a growing group of young computer owners who
> have known nothing but Vista, who will regard XP the way we regard
> Windows 3.1 or DOS.
>
> I have found nothing about Vista to complain about, other than the
> aforementioned networking-with-XP-machines difficulty. It's stable,
> easy to use, fast, and offers some enhancements and eye-candy that XP
> didn't have.
>
> More importantly, I found the migration from XP to Vista to be
> completely intuitive, with no instruction or help screens required. I
> just got to work, and the OS simply disappeared, as every good OS
> should.

You're a spamming fjukkwit.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

Jay Maynard > wrote in
:

> On 2008-08-21, John Smith > wrote:
>> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>> I've switched over almost entirely to Vista [...] and like it.
>> Just as you like to drive a Cessna spam can, too, because you haven't
>> flown a real airplane yet. (Such as a Yak 52, Extra 300, Cap 232, Pitts
>> or the like.)
>
> Actually, he's got two airplanes, a Piper Pathfinder and an Ercoupe.
>
> I wouldn't mind flying the "real airplanes" you list, but I've got no
> interest at all in aerobatics: I get motion sickness with any significant
> positive or negative G.
>
> There's more to real aviation than aerobatics.


Many things.


And flying a Cherokeee is not amongst them.



Bertie

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-08-22, Neil Gould > wrote:
> Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
>> I mis-remembered the story I quoted. The actual story was the 35% of
>> new Windows computers are downgraded either at the factory or by
>> the user shortly after purchase from Vista to XP.
> That sounds like an old story. Checked lately?

Posted to Slashdot on August 18, 2008:
http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/18/2016228

>> MS pretty much knows it built a dog. That's why they have kept pushing
>> back the drop dead date on XP.
> What drop dead date on XP are you referring to?

Probably the one where you can't get it any more.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

[Peter Clark]

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:44:53 -0700, "Neil Gould"
> wrote:

>Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
>>
>> I mis-remembered the story I quoted. The actual story was the 35% of
>> new Windows computers are downgraded either at the factory or by
>> the user shortly after purchase from Vista to XP.
>>
>That sounds like an old story. Checked lately?

I don't think it's still too outdated, MS has had a real problem
cutting off new XP sales. Didn't they just have to extend it again
because manufacturers complained?

Course, I've had Vista since it was in betas (MSDN). It got a
boatload better since SP1. Course, so did XP. Nothing like the
problems people had with Windows ME though.

>What drop dead date on XP are you referring to? The drop dead date for
>Windows 2000 isn't even here yet, and the drop dead date for Win98 was less
>than a year ago. XP has a long way to go before it's deprecated.

The new license (buy a new copy) avaialability as published at
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/default.mspx
which keeps getting pushed out and shows Windows 2000 cannot be
purchased any more. Or see the service pack/support roadmap at
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/servicepacks.mspx
which indicates that they're only publishing security patches for
anything below XP and have EOS/EOL'd NT4 and I would expect Windows
2000 to follow, probably 2 years after NT4's cutoff. I'm not sure
when that was right now, but it must be coming soon.

[Neil Gould]

Jay Maynard wrote:
> On 2008-08-22, Neil Gould > wrote:
>> Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
>>> I mis-remembered the story I quoted. The actual story was the 35% of
>>> new Windows computers are downgraded either at the factory or by
>>> the user shortly after purchase from Vista to XP.
>> That sounds like an old story. Checked lately?
>
> Posted to Slashdot on August 18, 2008:
> http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/18/2016228
>
Thanks fo rthe pointer... that's recent enough! ;-)

However, its references, I think the methodology used to determine this is
rather questionable because it presumes that the machines included in the
sample were originally set up with Vista just because they could have been.
Even the originator of the "data" states that it is pretty much a guess.
And, a sample size of 3,000 units is not significant given the millions of
computers sold during the same period. But, it is indicative of the shoddy
"research data" that people are willing to believe when it fits their
preconceptions.

>>> MS pretty much knows it built a dog. That's why they have kept
>>> pushing back the drop dead date on XP.
>> What drop dead date on XP are you referring to?
>
> Probably the one where you can't get it any more.
>
Considering that I purchased a new copy of Windows 2000 a couple weeks ago,
I think that your notion that you can't get XP anymore -- or even that one
won't be able to get XP for years to come -- is not based in reality.

Neil

[Neil Gould]

Peter Clark wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:44:53 -0700, "Neil Gould" wrote:
>
>> Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
>>>
>>> I mis-remembered the story I quoted. The actual story was the 35% of
>>> new Windows computers are downgraded either at the factory or by
>>> the user shortly after purchase from Vista to XP.
>>>
>> That sounds like an old story. Checked lately?
>
> I don't think it's still too outdated, MS has had a real problem
> cutting off new XP sales. Didn't they just have to extend it again
> because manufacturers complained?
>
What keeps most OSs going is compatibililty with existing hardware and
applications. People don't do their primary work using only the OS, no
matter what MS or Apple want users to think.

> Course, I've had Vista since it was in betas (MSDN). It got a
> boatload better since SP1. Course, so did XP. Nothing like the
> problems people had with Windows ME though.
>
Well, WinME was a horrendous product that breathed new life into Win98. Some
folks are trying to present Vista as analogous to ME, but I don't see that
as even remotely true. Even if the figures quoted above were correct, that
still means that 65% of all new Windows-based computers are running Vista.
That's many millions of machines.

There are good reasons to stay with XP if one currently has an XP-based
network or if they're running older hardware. Vista is bulky and originally
didn't play well in a mixed networking environment, and some aspects of the
newer IIS are incompatible with older versions, which can place a
significant financial burden on companies with large systems. But that's
quite a different matter than implying that Vista is somehow deficient.

>> What drop dead date on XP are you referring to? The drop dead date
>> for Windows 2000 isn't even here yet, and the drop dead date for
>> Win98 was less than a year ago. XP has a long way to go before it's
>> deprecated.
>
> The new license (buy a new copy) avaialability as published at
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/default.mspx
> which keeps getting pushed out and shows Windows 2000 cannot be
> purchased any more.
>
Not from Microsoft... but, Win2k is still being sold in the marketplace. At
any rate, the _drop dead_ date is when support is no longer available, which
was why I questioned the statement.

Neil

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Neil Gould wrote:
> Jay Maynard wrote:

>>>> MS pretty much knows it built a dog. That's why they have kept
>>>> pushing back the drop dead date on XP.
>>> What drop dead date on XP are you referring to?
>> Probably the one where you can't get it any more.
>>
> Considering that I purchased a new copy of Windows 2000 a couple weeks ago,
> I think that your notion that you can't get XP anymore -- or even that one
> won't be able to get XP for years to come -- is not based in reality.
>
> Neil
>

That's the point. MS has set at least 3 dates that will be the day that
XP can no longer be purchased and 2 of them have already passed.
Comparing Win2000 with XP is not really apples to apples. One is server
software. They are likely to be selling that when we are both dead.


Jumping back to the driver issue and machine issue that has been brought
up. The machine in question was an Alienware 3.3 P4ht that while not a
duo was a pretty fast machine and has 2GB of ram. The driver problems we
had with it were nVidia graphics drivers.

[john smith]

In article >,
Gig 601Xl Builder > wrote:

> Jumping back to the driver issue and machine issue that has been brought
> up. The machine in question was an Alienware 3.3 P4ht that while not a
> duo was a pretty fast machine and has 2GB of ram. The driver problems we
> had with it were nVidia graphics drivers.

Does it have one of the defective nVidia cards?

[Englebert]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
...
>
> You're a spamming fjukkwit.
>
>
> Bertie

and you are a ****ing spamwit.

[Neil Gould]

Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
> Neil Gould wrote:
>> Jay Maynard wrote:
>
>>>>> MS pretty much knows it built a dog. That's why they have kept
>>>>> pushing back the drop dead date on XP.
>>>> What drop dead date on XP are you referring to?
>>> Probably the one where you can't get it any more.
>>>
>> Considering that I purchased a new copy of Windows 2000 a couple
>> weeks ago, I think that your notion that you can't get XP anymore --
>> or even that one won't be able to get XP for years to come -- is not
>> based in reality.
>>
>> Neil
>>
>
> That's the point. MS has set at least 3 dates that will be the day
> that XP can no longer be purchased and 2 of them have already passed.
> Comparing Win2000 with XP is not really apples to apples. One is
> server software. They are likely to be selling that when we are both
> dead.
>
Win2000 came in a few varieties, as does XP and Vista. The version that I
purchased recently is Win2k Pro, intended for workstations, not servers. The
version you are referring to was called Server 2000, and it's been updated
to 2003 & 2007. One point that I was making is that the marketplace
determines the longevity of operating systems and application software.

> Jumping back to the driver issue and machine issue that has been
> brought up. The machine in question was an Alienware 3.3 P4ht that
> while not a duo was a pretty fast machine and has 2GB of ram. The
> driver problems we had with it were nVidia graphics drivers.
>
Drivers can be an issue, even with older application software. It isn't at
all surprising that you might have difficulty with an OS that nVidia didn't
support, and points the finger directly at them, not at Vista.

Neil

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

John Smith wrote:
> In article >,
> Gig 601Xl Builder > wrote:
>
>> Jumping back to the driver issue and machine issue that has been brought
>> up. The machine in question was an Alienware 3.3 P4ht that while not a
>> duo was a pretty fast machine and has 2GB of ram. The driver problems we
>> had with it were nVidia graphics drivers.
>
> Does it have one of the defective nVidia cards?


No It has a 6800 which has worked fine and continued to work fin once I
put XP back on the machine.

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Neil Gould wrote:
> Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
>> Neil Gould wrote:
>>> Jay Maynard wrote:
>>>>>> MS pretty much knows it built a dog. That's why they have kept
>>>>>> pushing back the drop dead date on XP.
>>>>> What drop dead date on XP are you referring to?
>>>> Probably the one where you can't get it any more.
>>>>
>>> Considering that I purchased a new copy of Windows 2000 a couple
>>> weeks ago, I think that your notion that you can't get XP anymore --
>>> or even that one won't be able to get XP for years to come -- is not
>>> based in reality.
>>>
>>> Neil
>>>
>> That's the point. MS has set at least 3 dates that will be the day
>> that XP can no longer be purchased and 2 of them have already passed.
>> Comparing Win2000 with XP is not really apples to apples. One is
>> server software. They are likely to be selling that when we are both
>> dead.
>>
> Win2000 came in a few varieties, as does XP and Vista. The version that I
> purchased recently is Win2k Pro, intended for workstations, not servers. The
> version you are referring to was called Server 2000, and it's been updated
> to 2003 & 2007. One point that I was making is that the marketplace
> determines the longevity of operating systems and application software.
>

We are violent agreement here. The point I'm trying to make is that MS
didn't want the market to determine that when it came to XP they wanted
to and it isn't working.


>> Jumping back to the driver issue and machine issue that has been
>> brought up. The machine in question was an Alienware 3.3 P4ht that
>> while not a duo was a pretty fast machine and has 2GB of ram. The
>> driver problems we had with it were nVidia graphics drivers.
>>
> Drivers can be an issue, even with older application software. It isn't at
> all surprising that you might have difficulty with an OS that nVidia didn't
> support, and points the finger directly at them, not at Vista.
>

nVidia along with ATI own the video card market. If MS couldn't get
nVidia (and I've heard about the same problems with ATI cards) on board
in time for the roll out there shouldn't have been a roll out. For a lot
of home users their machines pretty much became bricks when they loaded
Vista.

[Martin Hotze[_2_]]

Neil Gould schrieb:
> The version you are referring to was called Server 2000, and it's been
> updated to 2003 & 2007.

s/2007/2008, IIRC.

#m

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
>
>That's the point. MS has set at least 3 dates that will be the day that
>XP can no longer be purchased and 2 of them have already passed.
>Comparing Win2000 with XP is not really apples to apples. One is server
>software. They are likely to be selling that when we are both dead.
>

The last sale date for standard XP from OEMs and software vendors (XP in a
box) was June 30th. I bought my new XP system on the 28th. Dell seemed to
be the only ones that were still selling XP systems on that date.

XP sales are still authorized for business systems, but they are
technically classed as a Vista system sale with a "downgrade option" to XP.
Basically, you get a system loaded with XP with a CD to upgrade to Vista at a
future date. XP is also authorized for sale on "low end" systems. Systems
that do not have the power to run Vista efficiently.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200808/1

[Peter Clark]

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:43:28 GMT, "JGalban via AviationKB.com"
<u32749@uwe> wrote:

>Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
>>
>>That's the point. MS has set at least 3 dates that will be the day that
>>XP can no longer be purchased and 2 of them have already passed.
>>Comparing Win2000 with XP is not really apples to apples. One is server
>>software. They are likely to be selling that when we are both dead.
>>
>
> The last sale date for standard XP from OEMs and software vendors (XP in a
>box) was June 30th. I bought my new XP system on the 28th. Dell seemed to
>be the only ones that were still selling XP systems on that date.
>
> XP sales are still authorized for business systems, but they are
>technically classed as a Vista system sale with a "downgrade option" to XP.
>Basically, you get a system loaded with XP with a CD to upgrade to Vista at a
>future date. XP is also authorized for sale on "low end" systems. Systems
>that do not have the power to run Vista efficiently.

I think there's a hair being split here. What licence Microsoft will
sell you directly doesn't neccessarily equivelate to people who have a
stack of unsold Windows 2000 OEM packs laying around and will still
sell you. Good luck if you need a security patch or other support for
it once installed if it's not XP or Vista though.

[Neil Gould]

Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
> Neil Gould wrote:

>> Win2000 came in a few varieties, as does XP and Vista. The version
>> that I purchased recently is Win2k Pro, intended for workstations,
>> not servers. The version you are referring to was called Server
>> 2000, and it's been updated to 2003 & 2007. One point that I was
>> making is that the marketplace determines the longevity of operating
>> systems and application software.
>>
>
> We are violent agreement here. The point I'm trying to make is that MS
> didn't want the market to determine that when it came to XP they
> wanted to and it isn't working.
>
This hasn't changed from DOS days. But, it is still relevant to recognize
that even the faulty declarations of the article could be interpreted to say
that 2/3 of all new Windows machines are sold with Vista. That doesn't sound
like a marketing failure to me.

>>> Jumping back to the driver issue and machine issue that has been
>>> brought up. The machine in question was an Alienware 3.3 P4ht that
>>> while not a duo was a pretty fast machine and has 2GB of ram. The
>>> driver problems we had with it were nVidia graphics drivers.
>>>
>> Drivers can be an issue, even with older application software. It
>> isn't at all surprising that you might have difficulty with an OS
>> that nVidia didn't support, and points the finger directly at them,
>> not at Vista.
>>
>
> nVidia along with ATI own the video card market. If MS couldn't get
> nVidia (and I've heard about the same problems with ATI cards) on
> board in time for the roll out there shouldn't have been a roll out.
>
I disagree, considering that the majority of new motherboards have on-board
video that is perfectly satisfactory for most users and is already
compatible with Vista.

> For a lot of home users their machines pretty much became bricks when
> they loaded Vista.
>
They should have read the specs first. Most home users' machines don't meet
the minimum requirements, and those that do will only get the minimum
performance out of Vista. ;-)

Neil

[Neil Gould]

Peter Clark wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:43:28 GMT, "JGalban via AviationKB.com"
> <u32749@uwe> wrote:
>
>> Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
>>>
>>> That's the point. MS has set at least 3 dates that will be the day
>>> that XP can no longer be purchased and 2 of them have already
>>> passed. Comparing Win2000 with XP is not really apples to apples.
>>> One is server software. They are likely to be selling that when we
>>> are both dead.
>>>
>>
>> The last sale date for standard XP from OEMs and software vendors
>> (XP in a box) was June 30th. I bought my new XP system on the
>> 28th. Dell seemed to be the only ones that were still selling XP
>> systems on that date.
>>
>> XP sales are still authorized for business systems, but they are
>> technically classed as a Vista system sale with a "downgrade option"
>> to XP. Basically, you get a system loaded with XP with a CD to
>> upgrade to Vista at a future date. XP is also authorized for sale
>> on "low end" systems. Systems that do not have the power to run
>> Vista efficiently.
>
> I think there's a hair being split here. What licence Microsoft will
> sell you directly doesn't neccessarily equivelate to people who have a
> stack of unsold Windows 2000 OEM packs laying around and will still
> sell you. Good luck if you need a security patch or other support for
> it once installed if it's not XP or Vista though.
>
The security patches and other support is still available for Windows 2000
on Microsoft's site. They just discontinued support for Win98 at the
beginning of this year. XP has a long way to go.

Neil

[Martin Hotze[_2_]]

JGalban via AviationKB.com schrieb:

> XP sales are still authorized for business systems, but they are
> technically classed as a Vista system sale with a "downgrade option" to XP.
> Basically, you get a system loaded with XP with a CD to upgrade to Vista at a
> future date. XP is also authorized for sale on "low end" systems. Systems
> that do not have the power to run Vista efficiently.

you can still buy XP DSP (=OEM) here in Europe without limitation and
not bundled with Vista. But they will stop selling XP by the end of this
year (as I was told by my distributor).

#m

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Neil Gould wrote:
>
>The security patches and other support is still available for Windows 2000
>on Microsoft's site. They just discontinued support for Win98 at the
>beginning of this year. XP has a long way to go.
>

The OS is considered truly dead when MS quits supplying security and other
related patches. Win98 and WinME were discontinued way back in July of '06.
I was running an old ME system until July of this year and it was a pain. I
couldn't get any new hardware or software for it. It was running just fine
otherwise.

Before I ordered the new XP system a couple of months ago, I checked with
MS and they will continue to provide patches and fixes until 2014. That
works for me.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200808/1