Fake military guys & the Stolen Valor Act of 2005

[Tiger]

'War Stories' Have Some Facing Prison
August 18, 2008
The Oklahoman

John Smith said he was a Navy SEAL who was imprisoned in Vietnam after
his helicopter was shot down.

Troy Brodrick spoke in schools about his 30-year military career in
which he earned three Purple Hearts and flew President Eisenhower as an
Air Force One pilot.

William Whitely, a former University of Oklahoma professor, told stories
of his career as a Navy SEAL while he served as a mentor to Naval ROTC
students who wanted to follow in his footsteps.

Trouble is, they were lying.

Smith, Brodrick and Whitely are among a growing nest of military
imposters, people who make up military careers or exaggerate their service.

Such lies might seem harmless, especially when legitimate veterans have
been known to tell aggrandized tales to make their service seem a bit
more exciting. But it's a source of frustration for those who truly
earned such accolades, and in many cases it's a violation of federal law.

Steve Robinson is the real deal. He was with SEAL Team One for most of
the 1970s. He's written a book about unmasking SEAL imposters and has
worked with several Web sites that verify public claims of military heroism.

The most common false claims are prisoner of war status and special
forces service, Robinson said. "Last year, 188 men graduated from SEAL
training, of 35,000 who joined the Navy," he said.

He said for every man on the front lines, there were several supporting
them in jobs like clerk, cook and truck driver.

"I have only met a couple of cooks and truck drivers from the Vietnam
War. Most were hunting Vietcong snipers in the elephant grass," he said,
referring to stories people tell.

Lies can be criminal

The Stolen Valor Act of 2005 makes it a federal crime to wear military
decorations and medals that weren't earned. Unauthorized manufacturing
or selling of such awards is also forbidden. Both can be punished by
prison time and fines, officials said.

Impersonating an officer and falsely claiming veteran status are also
crimes.

Mary Schantag is a researcher for the POW Network, a Web site that keeps
a database of known military imposters in an effort to discourage them
from spreading their false claims.

Schantag, whose husband is a disabled Marine veteran, said it's
difficult for the FBI and courts to track down and punish every offender.

"Claiming medals that haven't been earned is a crime, but these guys
know they can get away with it," Schantag said. "There isn't enough room
in the justice system."

Schantag said the veterans who volunteer their time to unmask military
pretenders don't go to federal authorities unless the case is serious.

"We don't turn in the guy down the street who is wearing the Purple
Heart at the parade," Schantag said. "But if he has a Medal of Honor
hanging on his wall, and he's leading the parade and talking at the
local school, we might go to the FBI."

'A wake of victims'

Robinson and Schantag agree the problem has gotten worse since Desert
Storm in the early 1990s, with another spike since 9/11.

In January 2002, Robinson said, he was asked to check on more than 1,100
claims made by men who claimed to be SEALs. Three were legitimate.

Robinson said the most common offenders are veterans who embellish their
service.

Schantag said that it's a shame those who tell such lies can't take
pride in what they truly accomplished.

"They really want to be the hero elite, and they forget that it takes
every member of the military to make a mission successful," Schantag
said. "It doesn't matter whether they are the clerk typing in orders or
the cook making meals or the guy on the front lines."

The ramifications of such exaggerations can go well beyond possible
criminal prosecution.

Schantag said she's seen marriages broken up, children who lost faith in
a parent and longtime friendships between veterans lost forever.

"What they are doing is devastating," Schantag said. "They think it's a
victimless crime, and it's not. They leave a wake of victims."

Robinson said that even if the lies do not reach the threshold of being
a crime, that they are always demeaning to those who truly sacrificed
for their country.

"It's a huge travesty for the real men who earned it," Robinson said.
"It's horribly frustrating."

© Copyright 2008 The Oklahoman. All rights reserved. This material may
not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[frank]

On Aug 21, 2:33*pm, Tiger > wrote:
> 'War Stories' Have Some Facing Prison
> August 18, 2008
> The Oklahoman
>
> John Smith said he was a Navy SEAL who was imprisoned in Vietnam after
> his helicopter was shot down.
>
snip

What I don't understand are the politicians who do this. Had a guy in
South Texas, said he had MOH. Put it in his brochures, was caught. Can
we say stupid? Got jail time, lost his city elected job.

Wife knew a guy who didn't make it through basic, got out for the good
of the service. Goes around saying he's a Vietnam vet, hangs with
them. guess he's good enough to pass, but one of these days he's going
to get caught.

What burns me are all the ads in the local papers, wanting to buy
medals, decorations. I'm sure there are enough people who sell them.
But, jeez. Give them to the vet's high school for a wall of honor,
call the VFW or the Legion, contact the local historical society, but
sell them?

Is it just me, or am I too sensitive over this?

[Tiger]

frank wrote:
> On Aug 21, 2:33 pm, Tiger > wrote:
>
>>'War Stories' Have Some Facing Prison
>>August 18, 2008
>>The Oklahoman
>>
>>John Smith said he was a Navy SEAL who was imprisoned in Vietnam after
>>his helicopter was shot down.
>>
>
> snip
>
> What I don't understand are the politicians who do this. Had a guy in
> South Texas, said he had MOH. Put it in his brochures, was caught. Can
> we say stupid? Got jail time, lost his city elected job.
>
> Wife knew a guy who didn't make it through basic, got out for the good
> of the service. Goes around saying he's a Vietnam vet, hangs with
> them. guess he's good enough to pass, but one of these days he's going
> to get caught.
>
> What burns me are all the ads in the local papers, wanting to buy
> medals, decorations. I'm sure there are enough people who sell them.
> But, jeez. Give them to the vet's high school for a wall of honor,
> call the VFW or the Legion, contact the local historical society, but
> sell them?
>
> Is it just me, or am I too sensitive over this?

The Mayor of Atlantic City Bob Levey got busted last year for claiming
to have been a Green beret in 'Nam.

[Richard Casady]

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:38:04 -0700 (PDT), frank
> wrote:

>On Aug 21, 2:33*pm, Tiger > wrote:
>> 'War Stories' Have Some Facing Prison
>> August 18, 2008
>> The Oklahoman
>>
>> John Smith said he was a Navy SEAL who was imprisoned in Vietnam after
>> his helicopter was shot down.
>>
>snip
>
>What I don't understand are the politicians who do this. Had a guy in
>South Texas, said he had MOH. Put it in his brochures, was caught. Can
>we say stupid? Got jail time, lost his city elected job.
>
>Wife knew a guy who didn't make it through basic, got out for the good
>of the service. Goes around saying he's a Vietnam vet, hangs with
>them. guess he's good enough to pass, but one of these days he's going
>to get caught.
>
>What burns me are all the ads in the local papers, wanting to buy
>medals, decorations. I'm sure there are enough people who sell them.
>But, jeez. Give them to the vet's high school for a wall of honor,
>call the VFW or the Legion, contact the local historical society, but
>sell them?
>
>Is it just me, or am I too sensitive over this?

Fortunately my allegations of having spent my part of the Viet Nam war
typing discharges and reenlistments at Charleston AFB have gone
unquestioned. The glow on their faces when you handed them their
walking papers.

Casady

[Jack Linthicum]

On Aug 21, 10:38 pm, frank > wrote:
> On Aug 21, 2:33 pm, Tiger > wrote:> 'War Stories' Have Some Facing Prison
> > August 18, 2008
> > The Oklahoman
>
> > John Smith said he was a Navy SEAL who was imprisoned in Vietnam after
> > his helicopter was shot down.
>
> snip
>
> What I don't understand are the politicians who do this. Had a guy in
> South Texas, said he had MOH. Put it in his brochures, was caught. Can
> we say stupid? Got jail time, lost his city elected job.
>
> Wife knew a guy who didn't make it through basic, got out for the good
> of the service. Goes around saying he's a Vietnam vet, hangs with
> them. guess he's good enough to pass, but one of these days he's going
> to get caught.
>
> What burns me are all the ads in the local papers, wanting to buy
> medals, decorations. I'm sure there are enough people who sell them.
> But, jeez. Give them to the vet's high school for a wall of honor,
> call the VFW or the Legion, contact the local historical society, but
> sell them?
>
> Is it just me, or am I too sensitive over this?

Well, I have played that game. Guy in local store said I looked like a
vet, had I ever been in Vietnam? I said "yes" about six hours total,
coming and going. He thought that was true of many others without the
caveat.

[William Black[_1_]]

"Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
...
> On Aug 21, 10:38 pm, frank > wrote:
>> On Aug 21, 2:33 pm, Tiger > wrote:> 'War Stories'
>> Have Some Facing Prison
>> > August 18, 2008
>> > The Oklahoman
>>
>> > John Smith said he was a Navy SEAL who was imprisoned in Vietnam after
>> > his helicopter was shot down.
>>
>> snip
>>
>> What I don't understand are the politicians who do this. Had a guy in
>> South Texas, said he had MOH. Put it in his brochures, was caught. Can
>> we say stupid? Got jail time, lost his city elected job.
>>
>> Wife knew a guy who didn't make it through basic, got out for the good
>> of the service. Goes around saying he's a Vietnam vet, hangs with
>> them. guess he's good enough to pass, but one of these days he's going
>> to get caught.
>>
>> What burns me are all the ads in the local papers, wanting to buy
>> medals, decorations. I'm sure there are enough people who sell them.
>> But, jeez. Give them to the vet's high school for a wall of honor,
>> call the VFW or the Legion, contact the local historical society, but
>> sell them?
>>
>> Is it just me, or am I too sensitive over this?
>
> Well, I have played that game. Guy in local store said I looked like a
> vet, had I ever been in Vietnam? I said "yes" about six hours total,
> coming and going. He thought that was true of many others without the
> caveat.

As a Brit I have some real problems with all this.

Why does anyone care?

If you 'plug in' to the ex-service system you'll certainly come into contact
with people who will know, and there's no advantage in pretending you're
something you are not.

Back in this thread someone mentioned that someone pretended to be a MoH
winner.

Surely something like that would be exploded in seconds, it's not as if
there are that many of them. Certainly, in the UK, a VC winner would be
someone of note in the local community and someone claiming to be one who
nobody knew about would be liable to be checked out reasonably quickly.

What advantage accrues to someone in the USA if they pretend to have had a
distinguished military career?

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[tomcervo]

On Aug 22, 8:39�am, "William Black" >
wrote:
> "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 21, 10:38 pm, frank > wrote:
> >> On Aug 21, 2:33 pm, Tiger > wrote:> 'War Stories'
> >> Have Some Facing Prison
> >> > August 18, 2008
> >> > The Oklahoman
>
> >> > John Smith said he was a Navy SEAL who was imprisoned in Vietnam after
> >> > his helicopter was shot down.
>
> >> snip
>
> >> What I don't understand are the politicians who do this. Had a guy in
> >> South Texas, said he had MOH. Put it in his brochures, was caught. Can
> >> we say stupid? Got jail time, lost his city elected job.
>
> >> Wife knew a guy who didn't make it through basic, got out for the good
> >> of the service. Goes around saying he's a Vietnam vet, hangs with
> >> them. guess he's good enough to pass, but one of these days he's going
> >> to get caught.
>
> >> What burns me are all the ads in the local papers, wanting to buy
> >> medals, decorations. I'm sure there are enough people who sell them.
> >> But, jeez. Give them to the vet's high school for a wall of honor,
> >> call the VFW or the Legion, contact the local historical society, but
> >> sell them?
>
> >> Is it just me, or am I too sensitive over this?
>
> > Well, I have played that game. Guy in local store said I looked like a
> > vet, had I ever been in Vietnam? I said "yes" about six hours total,
> > coming and going. He thought that was true of many others without the
> > caveat.
>
> As a Brit I have some real problems with all this.
>
> Why does anyone care?
>
> If you 'plug in' to the ex-service system you'll certainly come into contact
> with people who will know, �and there's no advantage in pretending you're
> something you are not.
>
> Back in this thread someone mentioned that someone pretended to be a MoH
> winner.
>
> Surely something like that would be exploded in seconds, �it's not as if
> there are that many of them. �Certainly, �in the UK, �a VC winner would be
> someone of note in the local community and someone claiming to be one who
> nobody knew about would be liable to be checked out reasonably quickly.
>
> What advantage accrues to someone in the USA if they pretend to have had a
> distinguished military career?
>
> --
> William Black
>
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> All these moments will be lost in time, �like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Most of it is pathetic overreaching, like the Major in "Separate
Tables", with a few outright mental cases. But someone in a prominant
local or greater position--teachers, officials, politicians--seems
pathological. It's so easy to check, you'd have to be nuts to try and
fake it, particularly with any kind of front line unit or valor
decoration.
OTOH, I'm always interested in seeing how Vulcans and neocons with
Viet Nam draft birthdates handled that character check.

[Vaughn Simon]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
> If you 'plug in' to the ex-service system you'll certainly come into contact
> with people who will know, and there's no advantage in pretending you're
> something you are not.
>
> Back in this thread someone mentioned that someone pretended to be a MoH
> winner.
>
> Surely something like that would be exploded in seconds, it's not as if there
> are that many of them. Certainly, in the UK, a VC winner would be someone
> of note in the local community and someone claiming to be one who nobody knew
> about would be liable to be checked out reasonably quickly.

In the age if the Internet it is very easy for one to make the claim, and
even easier for the world to discover that the claim is false.

>
> What advantage accrues to someone in the USA if they pretend to have had a
> distinguished military career?

That really depends on one's individual situation, but usually there is very
little actual advantage connected to it. Perhaps you would be a big man at your
local VFW club, but that doesn't put food on the table.

On the other hand, the education I received in the Navy has proven to be far
more valuable to me than anything I learned in college.



--
Vaughn

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nothing personal, but if you are posting through Google Groups I may not receive
your message. Google refuses to control the flood of spam messages originating
in their system, so on any given day I may or may not have Google blocked. Try
a real NNTP server & news reader program and you will never go back. All you
need is access to an NNTP server (AKA "news server") and a news reader program.
You probably already have a news reader program in your computer (Hint: Outlook
Express). Assuming that your Usenet needs are modest, use
http://news.aioe.org/ for free and/or http://www.teranews.com/ for a one-time
$3.95 setup fee.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Will poofread for food.

[Andrew Chaplin]

QUOTE
"tomcervo" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 22, 8:39?am, "William Black" >
wrote:
> "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 21, 10:38 pm, frank > wrote:
> >> On Aug 21, 2:33 pm, Tiger > wrote:> 'War Stories'
> >> Have Some Facing Prison
> >> > August 18, 2008
> >> > The Oklahoman
>
> >> > John Smith said he was a Navy SEAL who was imprisoned in Vietnam after
> >> > his helicopter was shot down.
>
> >> snip
>
> >> What I don't understand are the politicians who do this. Had a guy in
> >> South Texas, said he had MOH. Put it in his brochures, was caught. Can
> >> we say stupid? Got jail time, lost his city elected job.
>
> >> Wife knew a guy who didn't make it through basic, got out for the good
> >> of the service. Goes around saying he's a Vietnam vet, hangs with
> >> them. guess he's good enough to pass, but one of these days he's going
> >> to get caught.
>
> >> What burns me are all the ads in the local papers, wanting to buy
> >> medals, decorations. I'm sure there are enough people who sell them.
> >> But, jeez. Give them to the vet's high school for a wall of honor,
> >> call the VFW or the Legion, contact the local historical society, but
> >> sell them?
>
> >> Is it just me, or am I too sensitive over this?
>
> > Well, I have played that game. Guy in local store said I looked like a
> > vet, had I ever been in Vietnam? I said "yes" about six hours total,
> > coming and going. He thought that was true of many others without the
> > caveat.
>
> As a Brit I have some real problems with all this.
>
> Why does anyone care?
>
> If you 'plug in' to the ex-service system you'll certainly come into contact
> with people who will know, ?and there's no advantage in pretending you're
> something you are not.
>
> Back in this thread someone mentioned that someone pretended to be a MoH
> winner.
>
> Surely something like that would be exploded in seconds, ?it's not as if
> there are that many of them. ?Certainly, ?in the UK, ?a VC winner would be
> someone of note in the local community and someone claiming to be one who
> nobody knew about would be liable to be checked out reasonably quickly.
>
> What advantage accrues to someone in the USA if they pretend to have had a
> distinguished military career?


Most of it is pathetic overreaching, like the Major in "Separate
Tables", with a few outright mental cases. But someone in a prominant
local or greater position--teachers, officials, politicians--seems
pathological. It's so easy to check, you'd have to be nuts to try and
fake it, particularly with any kind of front line unit or valor
decoration.
OTOH, I'm always interested in seeing how Vulcans and neocons with
Viet Nam draft birthdates handled that character check.
UNQUOTE

The main reason it is so hard to claim to have earned some medal you haven't
is because of the gazetting of awards: any claim is easily verfiable. My
experience with such caddish behaviour in the U.K. and Commonwealth is that it
usually a claim of service in something like the SAS, SASR or JTF2, all of
which are very taciturn when it comes to confirming or even denying someone's
membership.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Derek Lyons]

"William Black" > wrote:

>s a Brit I have some real problems with all this.
>
>Why does anyone care?
>
>If you 'plug in' to the ex-service system you'll certainly come into contact
>with people who will know, and there's no advantage in pretending you're
>something you are not.

When it comes to Vietnam vets, there are certain advantages to
maintaining the fiction that most of them were jungle rotted victims
of PTSD sprayed with Agent Orange on daily basis and twice on Sundays.

>What advantage accrues to someone in the USA if they pretend to have had a
>distinguished military career?

In the current enviroment of near worship for the service member and
the veteran one accrues at least of modicum of social respect and
status by being a service member or veteran.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

[Derek Lyons]

"Vaughn Simon" > wrote:

>"William Black" > wrote in message
>
>> Surely something like that would be exploded in seconds, it's not as if there
>> are that many of them. Certainly, in the UK, a VC winner would be someone
>> of note in the local community and someone claiming to be one who nobody knew
>> about would be liable to be checked out reasonably quickly.
>
> In the age if the Internet it is very easy for one to make the claim, and
>even easier for the world to discover that the claim is false.

Only if the record in question is online. My awards (far short of a
VC) aren't. Neither is my service except where I myself have made it
available.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

[frank]

On Aug 22, 9:52*am, "Andrew Chaplin"
> wrote:
> QUOTE"tomcervo" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Aug 22, 8:39?am, "William Black" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> ....
>
> > > On Aug 21, 10:38 pm, frank > wrote:
> > >> On Aug 21, 2:33 pm, Tiger > wrote:> 'War Stories'
> > >> Have Some Facing Prison
> > >> > August 18, 2008
> > >> > The Oklahoman
>
> > >> > John Smith said he was a Navy SEAL who was imprisoned in Vietnam after
> > >> > his helicopter was shot down.
>
> > >> snip
>
> > >> What I don't understand are the politicians who do this. Had a guy in
> > >> South Texas, said he had MOH. Put it in his brochures, was caught. Can
> > >> we say stupid? Got jail time, lost his city elected job.
>
> > >> Wife knew a guy who didn't make it through basic, got out for the good
> > >> of the service. Goes around saying he's a Vietnam vet, hangs with
> > >> them. guess he's good enough to pass, but one of these days he's going
> > >> to get caught.
>
> > >> What burns me are all the ads in the local papers, wanting to buy
> > >> medals, decorations. I'm sure there are enough people who sell them.
> > >> But, jeez. Give them to the vet's high school for a wall of honor,
> > >> call the VFW or the Legion, contact the local historical society, but
> > >> sell them?
>
> > >> Is it just me, or am I too sensitive over this?
>
> > > Well, I have played that game. Guy in local store said I looked like a
> > > vet, had I ever been in Vietnam? I said "yes" about six hours total,
> > > coming and going. He thought that was true of many others without the
> > > caveat.
>
> > As a Brit I have some real problems with all this.
>
> > Why does anyone care?
>
> > If you 'plug in' to the ex-service system you'll certainly come into contact
> > with people who will know, ?and there's no advantage in pretending you're
> > something you are not.
>
> > Back in this thread someone mentioned that someone pretended to be a MoH
> > winner.
>
> > Surely something like that would be exploded in seconds, ?it's not as if
> > there are that many of them. ?Certainly, ?in the UK, ?a VC winner would be
> > someone of note in the local community and someone claiming to be one who
> > nobody knew about would be liable to be checked out reasonably quickly.
>
> > What advantage accrues to someone in the USA if they pretend to have had a
> > distinguished military career?
>
> Most of it is pathetic overreaching, like the Major in "Separate
> Tables", with a few outright mental cases. But someone in a prominant
> local or greater position--teachers, officials, politicians--seems
> pathological. It's so easy to check, you'd have to be nuts to try and
> fake it, particularly with any kind of front line unit or valor
> decoration.
> OTOH, I'm always interested in seeing how Vulcans and neocons with
> Viet Nam draft birthdates handled that character check.
> UNQUOTE
>
> The main reason it is so hard to claim to have earned some medal you haven't
> is because of the gazetting of awards: any claim is easily verfiable. My
> experience with such caddish behaviour in the U.K. and Commonwealth is that it
> usually a claim of service in something like the SAS, SASR or JTF2, all of
> which are very taciturn when it comes to confirming or even denying someone's
> membership.
> --
> Andrew Chaplin
> SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
> (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

True. I worked with a guy who was head North American test pilot. We
didn't find out until after he retired from NA and the B-1B program
that he was a test pilot on the Have Blue program (F-117 precursor).
Never talked about it, even after it was declassified somewhat. Was
almost a footnote in the standard retirement biography that was
brought up when serving punch and cake. Same with a lot in SF, SEALS,
other operations.

But, in the US, there is still a bit of I guess national shame over
how the Vietnam vet was treated. not that this has translated into a
decent fix of the VA and all the benefits and facilities, but
still... So, if you were in Vietnam, you were seen to have served
under adverse political conditions at home. With the later wars, there
is more and more acceptance of military service.

And, it does help in politics or public service, you can see it in the
national elections right now. In American history, saying you were a
Union vet and fought in the Civil War was a big badge of honor. Almost
made you a shoes in. GAR, Grand Army of the Republic was a national
organization of vets that were in Civil War that had annual parades,
gatherings, were always around for a good 50 or ever 60 years after
the Civil War, There is even newsreel footage of a 1921 encampment of
vets from both sides. There was an old political phrase, 'waving the
bloody shirt' where you would say you were wounded in Shiloh or some
other battle, get cheers, accolades and be elected into office.

I don't know if overseas there is this sort of emotional reaction that
you get in the US. From some of the posts, its more something you
don't brag about. But, we scatter over here. I can count a good five
or six places I've lived in the past dozen years, from one side of the
country to another. IF the town is small enough, then you know all the
local boys and families and how they were, but start getting a bit
larger town or city, its not as easy.

Hope this helps.

Oh yeah, officially, the Civil War is known as the War of Northern
Aggression. In more genteel society, The Recent Unpleasantness.

[Ed Rasimus[_1_]]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 08:14:56 -0700 (PDT), frank
> wrote:

>> > What advantage accrues to someone in the USA if they pretend to have had a
>> > distinguished military career?

Unfortunately the US has evolved into a nation in which few of the
general population have ever served or even known anyone in the
military. The result is that someone can claim the outrageous and
easily pass for years as a hero of a war that no one cares much about.
There have been an incredible number of outrageous public officials
who have run for public office and been elected on totally fabricated
military records.
>>
>> OTOH, I'm always interested in seeing how Vulcans and neocons with
>> Viet Nam draft birthdates handled that character check.
>> UNQUOTE

The current euphemism in favor is "Vietnam-era Veteran" which usually
means never left the States but was in a sort of uniform for a few
months during the period in question.
>>
>True. I worked with a guy who was head North American test pilot. We
>didn't find out until after he retired from NA and the B-1B program
>that he was a test pilot on the Have Blue program (F-117 precursor).
>Never talked about it, even after it was declassified somewhat. Was
>almost a footnote in the standard retirement biography that was
>brought up when serving punch and cake. Same with a lot in SF, SEALS,
>other operations.

That very secrecy is what many of the poseurs depend upon. They allude
to secret operations and clandestine organizations which have secured
their records from public scrutiny.
>
>But, in the US, there is still a bit of I guess national shame over
>how the Vietnam vet was treated. not that this has translated into a
>decent fix of the VA and all the benefits and facilities, but
>still... So, if you were in Vietnam, you were seen to have served
>under adverse political conditions at home. With the later wars, there
>is more and more acceptance of military service.

One of the most egregious I saw was in Colorado where a Veteran's day
celebration had Sen. Ben Campbell on stage with a guy in USAF
Colonel's uniform wearing an AF Cross, several Silver Stars and a
number of DFC's. He professed to have been a POW and escapee from
Hanoi as well as a fighter pilot hero.

He was blissfully unaware that sharing the stage was retired Navy
Captain Mike McGrath, former POW and then president of the Nam-POWs
who had never seen the guy before and quickly outed him.
>
>And, it does help in politics or public service, you can see it in the
>national elections right now. In American history, saying you were a
>Union vet and fought in the Civil War was a big badge of honor.

The terminology was "waving the bloody jacket"--if you had been
wounded in the Civil War, you were most assuredly an election winner.
>
>I don't know if overseas there is this sort of emotional reaction that
>you get in the US. From some of the posts, its more something you
>don't brag about. But, we scatter over here. I can count a good five
>or six places I've lived in the past dozen years, from one side of the
>country to another. IF the town is small enough, then you know all the
>local boys and families and how they were, but start getting a bit
>larger town or city, its not as easy.

Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.

Here's a good source for checking out POW claimers:

http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1082.htm

The roster is incredibly long which demonstrates the magnitude of the
problem.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
www.thunderchief.org

[Mark Borgerson[_2_]]

In article >,
says...
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:38:04 -0700 (PDT), frank
> > wrote:
>
> >On Aug 21, 2:33*pm, Tiger > wrote:
> >> 'War Stories' Have Some Facing Prison
> >> August 18, 2008
> >> The Oklahoman
> >>
> >> John Smith said he was a Navy SEAL who was imprisoned in Vietnam after
> >> his helicopter was shot down.
> >>
> >snip
> >
> >What I don't understand are the politicians who do this. Had a guy in
> >South Texas, said he had MOH. Put it in his brochures, was caught. Can
> >we say stupid? Got jail time, lost his city elected job.
> >
> >Wife knew a guy who didn't make it through basic, got out for the good
> >of the service. Goes around saying he's a Vietnam vet, hangs with
> >them. guess he's good enough to pass, but one of these days he's going
> >to get caught.
> >
> >What burns me are all the ads in the local papers, wanting to buy
> >medals, decorations. I'm sure there are enough people who sell them.
> >But, jeez. Give them to the vet's high school for a wall of honor,
> >call the VFW or the Legion, contact the local historical society, but
> >sell them?
> >
> >Is it just me, or am I too sensitive over this?
>
> Fortunately my allegations of having spent my part of the Viet Nam war
> typing discharges and reenlistments at Charleston AFB have gone
> unquestioned. The glow on their faces when you handed them their
> walking papers.
>
When the subject comes up for me, I say that I was in the Navy
at the time, but never got closer than Yokusuka Naval Base in
Japan.

Only about half the Vietnam-era veterans actually served in
Vietnam. I think the percentage was probably much lower for
the Navy.

http://www.bls.census.gov/cps/pub/vet_1293.htm

Mark Borgerson

[Mark Borgerson[_2_]]

In article >,
says...
> "Vaughn Simon" > wrote:
>
> >"William Black" > wrote in message
> >
> >> Surely something like that would be exploded in seconds, it's not as if there
> >> are that many of them. Certainly, in the UK, a VC winner would be someone
> >> of note in the local community and someone claiming to be one who nobody knew
> >> about would be liable to be checked out reasonably quickly.
> >
> > In the age if the Internet it is very easy for one to make the claim, and
> >even easier for the world to discover that the claim is false.
>
> Only if the record in question is online. My awards (far short of a
> VC) aren't. Neither is my service except where I myself have made it
> available.

It's a bit curious what records are available or not. Back in the
80's the university library used to get an annual book listing the
commissioned officers of each service, their date of rank and
designator. I haven't seen anything like it in the last 20 years,
though. I suppose that releasing that data might be considered
an invasion of privacy now.


Mark Borgerson

[William Black[_1_]]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...

> Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
> premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
> and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
> extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
> the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.

You miss my point.

1. Why do the fakers do it?

2. Why do people like the Shantags spend their lives looking for them?

While there may be some false glamour is the pretence it's surely only a
matter of time before they're exposed, and as for chasing them, don't
these people have a life? If you want to spend your time doing good works I
can think of several that are more rewarding.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[Bob McKellar]

Mr. Henry, whose medals and wounds were very real, did not care for such
folks.
http://www.coastcomp.com/teabags/serum.html

(I only flog my stories once in a while, so I hope for forgiveness.)

Bob McKellar

[scott s.]

Mark Borgerson > wrote in
.net:
>
> It's a bit curious what records are available or not. Back in the
> 80's the university library used to get an annual book listing the
> commissioned officers of each service, their date of rank and
> designator. I haven't seen anything like it in the last 20 years,
> though. I suppose that releasing that data might be considered
> an invasion of privacy now.
>

That would be the U.S. Naval Register avail online from BuPers.

scott s.
..

[dott.Piergiorgio]

Andrew Chaplin ha scritto:

> Most of it is pathetic overreaching, like the Major in "Separate
> Tables", with a few outright mental cases. But someone in a prominant
> local or greater position--teachers, officials, politicians--seems
> pathological. It's so easy to check, you'd have to be nuts to try and
> fake it, particularly with any kind of front line unit or valor
> decoration.
> OTOH, I'm always interested in seeing how Vulcans and neocons with
> Viet Nam draft birthdates handled that character check.

Vulcans in this context means..... ?

Last time I checked Leonard Nimoy was already outside drafting age, in 1966.

And also, RAF Vulcans neither was in US inventory or used in 'Nam.

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

[dott.Piergiorgio]

William Black ha scritto:

>
> 1. Why do the fakers do it?
>
> 2. Why do people like the Shantags spend their lives looking for them?

Another question: where one draw the line between posers and talltellers ?

I write from s.m.n. but I guess that also the people in rec.aviation.*
knew the old saying "sailor's story"........


Once here on the Rivista Marittima was an interesting article about the
perception of the number of sunken RN submarines, pointing out facts
like that in relatively shallow waters, the reflex wave of depth charges
came to the surface as a cigar-shaped rising of water whose in the heat
of action and/or limited light condition can easily taken for a capsized
submarine hull rising then sinking for all.

And also there was the pathethic case of the Commander Grosso, whose
misidentify CA's for BB's and different bearing angles for sinking
conditionsm ending in a double granting and double rewoking of Gold
Medals of Valor (an really exceptional case, esp. involving our highest
decoration)

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

[tomcervo]

On Aug 22, 1:31�pm, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
> One of the most egregious I saw was in Colorado where a Veteran's day
> celebration had Sen. Ben Campbell on stage with a guy in USAF
> Colonel's uniform wearing an AF Cross, several Silver Stars and a
> number of DFC's. He professed to have been a POW and escapee from
> Hanoi as well as a fighter pilot hero.
>
> He was blissfully unaware that sharing the stage was retired Navy
> Captain Mike McGrath, former POW and then president of the Nam-POWs
> who had never seen the guy before and quickly outed him.

That's why I think it's pathological. If a con artist wanted to pass,
he'd make a vague allusion to service and then respond to questions
with "I don't want to/can't talk about it", as do many real vets, and
let people think what they want.
There's a very shrewd French movie, based on some real life cases, "A
Self-Made Hero",

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118020/

about a man who allows people to think he was in the Resistance,
without making any particular claims. In most cases they are eager to
believe it. He keeps up the sham until the climax, when he finds
himself in a position where he has to live up to his act.

[tomcervo]

On Aug 22, 7:38�pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
> wrote:
> Andrew Chaplin ha scritto:
>
> > Most of it is pathetic overreaching, like the Major in "Separate
> > Tables", with a few outright mental cases. But someone in a prominant
> > local or greater position--teachers, officials, politicians--seems
> > pathological. It's so easy to check, you'd have to be nuts to try and
> > fake it, particularly with any kind of front line unit or valor
> > decoration.
> > OTOH, I'm always interested in seeing how Vulcans and neocons with
> > Viet Nam draft birthdates handled that character check.
>
> Vulcans in this context means..... ?
>
> Last time I checked Leonard Nimoy was already outside drafting age, in 1966.
>
> And also, RAF Vulcans neither was in US inventory or used in 'Nam.
>
> Best regards from Italy,
> Dott. Piergiorgio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vulcans

[Bill Baker]

On 2008-08-22 07:14:06 -0700, "Vaughn Simon"
> said:

> In the age if the Internet it is very easy for one to make the claim, and
> even easier for the world to discover that the claim is false.

Things are heading that way, yes, but it's still the case that truly
canonical registers are only available online for the very highest
military awards. The convenient analogy is with academic records,
which are so often faked as well. It might take a little legwork to
prove if someone really holds a Navy Cross or a PhD, but it's not that
hard. Trying to authenticate a Bronze Star or masters degree though,
you'll have to dig a bit, and a BA/BS or whatever one would call an
analogous military merit award...forget it.

(Perversely, the listing for my bachelors thesis can be found online
but my masters thesis is nowhere to be found.)

>> What advantage accrues to someone in the USA if they pretend to have had a
>> distinguished military career?
>
> That really depends on one's individual situation, but usually there is very
> little actual advantage connected to it. Perhaps you would be a big
> man at your
> local VFW club, but that doesn't put food on the table.

Actually, if you look at just the records of politicians who have
gotten nailed for fake medals or claiming advanced degrees they never
earned, it's pretty clear that they did benefit from the con.

[Ed Rasimus[_1_]]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:42:44 +0100, "William Black"
> wrote:

>
>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
>
>> Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
>> premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
>> and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
>> extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
>> the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.
>
>You miss my point.
>
>1. Why do the fakers do it?

For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
which they did not earn.

While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.
>
>2. Why do people like the Shantags spend their lives looking for them?
>
>While there may be some false glamour is the pretence it's surely only a
>matter of time before they're exposed, and as for chasing them, don't
>these people have a life? If you want to spend your time doing good works I
>can think of several that are more rewarding.

Chuck is a retired Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam
experience. They got involved with the search for POW verifications
and became very active in the POW/MIA activities. Gradually they
drifted into the Stolen Valor research and have built a network of
sources that make them the recognized US experts in the business.

There is no money in it, obviously, but there is a deep sense of
satisfaction. Bringing these creeps to justice isn't quite as visceral
as punching their lights out, but it can be more effective in
derailing them in the long run.

Personally I still lean toward cutting off their buttons, ripping
their epaulets, breaking their saber over my knee and tossing them out
the gate...but that's just me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
www.thunderchief.org

[Peter Skelton]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 13:31:53 GMT, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:42:44 +0100, "William Black"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>> Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
>>> premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
>>> and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
>>> extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
>>> the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.
>>
>>You miss my point.
>>
>>1. Why do the fakers do it?
>
>For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
>which they did not earn.
>
>While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
>in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
>claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.

Possibly, but bull****ters are more driven by the risk and the
desire to see if they can get away with it. Harry Frankfurt's "On
Bull****" has good insight. (It's a nice read.) Originally
published as an essay in Raritan, it is a book now. About $5 used
on Amazon.

Know your enemy :)


Peter Skelton

[tomcervo]

On Aug 23, 9:31�am, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
> Personally I still lean toward cutting off their buttons, ripping
> their epaulets, breaking their saber over my knee and tossing them out
> the gate...but that's just me.

1. They have NO buttons, epaulets or saber.
2. They'd probably get a similar perverse thrill out of the ceremony.

A pie in the face is more like it.

[Dan[_12_]]

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:42:44 +0100, "William Black"
> > wrote:
>
>> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
>>> premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
>>> and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
>>> extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
>>> the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.
>> You miss my point.
>>
>> 1. Why do the fakers do it?
>
> For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
> which they did not earn.
>
> While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
> in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
> claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.
>> 2. Why do people like the Shantags spend their lives looking for them?
>>
>> While there may be some false glamour is the pretence it's surely only a
>> matter of time before they're exposed, and as for chasing them, don't
>> these people have a life? If you want to spend your time doing good works I
>> can think of several that are more rewarding.
>
> Chuck is a retired Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam
> experience. They got involved with the search for POW verifications
> and became very active in the POW/MIA activities. Gradually they
> drifted into the Stolen Valor research and have built a network of
> sources that make them the recognized US experts in the business.
>
> There is no money in it, obviously, but there is a deep sense of
> satisfaction. Bringing these creeps to justice isn't quite as visceral
> as punching their lights out, but it can be more effective in
> derailing them in the long run.
>
> Personally I still lean toward cutting off their buttons, ripping
> their epaulets, breaking their saber over my knee and tossing them out
> the gate...but that's just me.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com
> www.thunderchief.org


I make a distinction between the guys who do it for fun like the
comedian Gallagher who used the line "I lost my hair in Viet Nam" and
the jerks who expect one to believe their stories for some sort of
personal gain.

Several years ago I came across a photograph of a man in USMC field
grade mess dress uniform being handcuffed and led away. I was disturbed
at the idea, but even more so when I found out he had been arrested for
impersonation.

I am not against selling or trading awards and decorations since
there are collectors out there, myself included. The Stolen Valour Act
means I can't sell or trade the Medal of Honour ribbon in my collection
and that I will never fill the blanks for the medals themselves. I do
understand why that part of the act was put in and feel that anyone
falsely claiming the award should be run through a virtual wood chipper.

Anyway, there I wuz in Pusan 1950 where I was a combat assault cook
making coffee in cubes......

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[William Black[_1_]]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:42:44 +0100, "William Black"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>> Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
>>> premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
>>> and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
>>> extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
>>> the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.
>>
>>You miss my point.
>>
>>1. Why do the fakers do it?
>
> For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
> which they did not earn.
>
> While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
> in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
> claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.

Well then you have do some sort of 'risk/benefit' analysis then.

The risks seem high if people are spending their lives chasing them down.

There seem to be no material benefits.

Why bother?

Don't misunderstand, everyone's met the guy who claims to have served with
the SAS who turns out to have been a cook on a base where an SAS man once
turned up to give a talk on '"The Military Architecture of Hereford";
that's almost expected.

But who on earth claims significant decorations in the hope that no-one will
notice?

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[dott.Piergiorgio]

tomcervo ha scritto:

>> Vulcans in this context means..... ?
>>
>> Last time I checked Leonard Nimoy was already outside drafting age, in 1966.
>>
>> And also, RAF Vulcans neither was in US inventory or used in 'Nam.
>>
>> Best regards from Italy,
>> Dott. Piergiorgio.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vulcans

Thanks.

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

[Richard Casady]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:14:20 -0700 (PDT), tomcervo >
wrote:

>> Last time I checked Leonard Nimoy was already outside drafting age, in 1966.

The first public sighting of Star Trek was at the World Science
Fiction Convention in Sep 66. I was there.
>> And also, RAF Vulcans neither was in US inventory or used in 'Nam.

No, but the US Army had a 20mm Gatling AA gun they called the Vulcan.

Casady

[Ed Rasimus[_1_]]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 14:59:17 +0100, "William Black"
> wrote:

>
>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...

>> For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
>> which they did not earn.
>>
>> While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
>> in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
>> claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.
>
>Well then you have do some sort of 'risk/benefit' analysis then.
>
>The risks seem high if people are spending their lives chasing them down.
>
>There seem to be no material benefits.
>
>Why bother?
>
>Don't misunderstand, everyone's met the guy who claims to have served with
>the SAS who turns out to have been a cook on a base where an SAS man once
>turned up to give a talk on '"The Military Architecture of Hereford";
>that's almost expected.
>
>But who on earth claims significant decorations in the hope that no-one will
>notice?

I direct you once again to this comprehensive site which will show you
"who on earth..."

http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1082.htm

There are so many that they must be organized on alphabetical pages
and even then it takes considerable scrolling to get to the bottom.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
www.thunderchief.org

[Richard Casady]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 13:31:53 GMT, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:

>Personally I still lean toward cutting off their buttons, ripping
>their epaulets, breaking their saber over my knee and tossing them out
>the gate...but that's just me.

I think if you try to break a saber over your knee you will hurt
yourself. Those things would have to be pretty sturdy just to work as
designed.

Casady

[frank]

>
> Actually, if you look at just the records of politicians who have
> gotten nailed for fake medals or claiming advanced degrees they never
> earned, it's pretty clear that they did benefit from the con. *

[frank]

>
> Actually, if you look at just the records of politicians who have
> gotten nailed for fake medals or claiming advanced degrees they never
> earned, it's pretty clear that they did benefit from the con. *

up here degrees from St Regis were popular. Pay your money, get your
degree. They caught some cops from Chicago PD using them to get
promoted. Some had retired and they're going to get away with it. Ones
on duty are pulling degrees from their files, not sure if anything
else, i.e. demotion to rank not requiring a degree. FBI is getting
involved as there were some Federal employees doing it.

Degrees are pretty easy to check. Most universities will verify if a
person was a student or if they got a degree. Transcripts are
confidential.

One problem I've seen is colleges are way different in type of
students they output. MIT or Cal Tech engineers are not the same as
oh, say U Montana if they give a degree. And the other problem is
departments change over time, not as obvious at the bachelor's level,
but if you go for a PhD you can get screwed if people retire, leave
and the new bozo who's chair brings in losers.

[William Black[_1_]]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 14:59:17 +0100, "William Black"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
>
>>> For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
>>> which they did not earn.
>>>
>>> While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
>>> in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
>>> claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.
>>
>>Well then you have do some sort of 'risk/benefit' analysis then.
>>
>>The risks seem high if people are spending their lives chasing them down.
>>
>>There seem to be no material benefits.
>>
>>Why bother?
>>
>>Don't misunderstand, everyone's met the guy who claims to have served
>>with
>>the SAS who turns out to have been a cook on a base where an SAS man once
>>turned up to give a talk on '"The Military Architecture of Hereford";
>>that's almost expected.
>>
>>But who on earth claims significant decorations in the hope that no-one
>>will
>>notice?
>
> I direct you once again to this comprehensive site which will show you
> "who on earth..."
>
> http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1082.htm
>
> There are so many that they must be organized on alphabetical pages
> and even then it takes considerable scrolling to get to the bottom.

You miss my point.

Why do they bother?

It seems to bring next to no advantage and has huge risks.

It is obviously a problem there otherwise the government wouldn't have made
it a crime, which must make things a touch difficult for re-enactors and
film units but that's life...

One guy has a long paragraph aimed at him for telling tall tales around the
campfire at some re-enactment, which, to be honest, is just plain silly.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[Jack Linthicum]

On Aug 23, 10:52 am, "William Black" >
wrote:
> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 14:59:17 +0100, "William Black"
> > > wrote:
>
> >>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >>> For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
> >>> which they did not earn.
>
> >>> While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
> >>> in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
> >>> claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.
>
> >>Well then you have do some sort of 'risk/benefit' analysis then.
>
> >>The risks seem high if people are spending their lives chasing them down.
>
> >>There seem to be no material benefits.
>
> >>Why bother?
>
> >>Don't misunderstand, everyone's met the guy who claims to have served
> >>with
> >>the SAS who turns out to have been a cook on a base where an SAS man once
> >>turned up to give a talk on '"The Military Architecture of Hereford";
> >>that's almost expected.
>
> >>But who on earth claims significant decorations in the hope that no-one
> >>will
> >>notice?
>
> > I direct you once again to this comprehensive site which will show you
> > "who on earth..."
>
> >http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1082.htm
>
> > There are so many that they must be organized on alphabetical pages
> > and even then it takes considerable scrolling to get to the bottom.
>
> You miss my point.
>
> Why do they bother?
>
> It seems to bring next to no advantage and has huge risks.
>
> It is obviously a problem there otherwise the government wouldn't have made
> it a crime, which must make things a touch difficult for re-enactors and
> film units but that's life...
>
> One guy has a long paragraph aimed at him for telling tall tales around the
> campfire at some re-enactment, which, to be honest, is just plain silly.
>
> --
> William Black
>
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.

There are some people who want to skate on the edge. That guy with the
movie, Demara? Tony Curtis played him IIRC. Okay until the guy playing
a doctor pulls a patient with a real problem. There was one of those
jokers caught last year who had done in some of the people from this
newsgroup.

I would excuse those "there I was at 20,000 feet with Japs all around
me" guys, especially if it finishes with "so I asked the stewardess
for one of those towels".

[CJ Adams]

Richard Casady wrote:
>
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 13:31:53 GMT, Ed Rasimus
> > wrote:
>
>> Personally I still lean toward cutting off their buttons, ripping
>> their epaulets, breaking their saber over my knee and tossing them out
>> the gate...but that's just me.
>
> I think if you try to break a saber over your knee you will hurt
> yourself. Those things would have to be pretty sturdy just to work as
> designed.
>


You hacksaw it partly through beforehand.

Cheers
CJ Adams

[Bob McKellar]

Whatever happened to the resident RAM IRA operative/USAF General?

Bob McKellar

[Jack Linthicum]

On Aug 23, 1:29 pm, "Bob McKellar" > wrote:
> Whatever happened to the resident RAM IRA operative/USAF General?
>
> Bob McKellar

I think that's the boy, the last I heard he was discussing housing
accommodations with a local arm of the law. Probably let him go.

[frank]

On Aug 23, 8:55*am, tomcervo > wrote:
> On Aug 23, 9:31 am, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>
> > Personally I still lean toward cutting off their buttons, ripping
> > their epaulets, breaking their saber over my knee and tossing them out
> > the gate...but that's just me.
>
> 1. They have NO buttons, epaulets or saber.
> 2. They'd probably get a similar perverse thrill out of the ceremony.
>
> A pie in the face is more like it.

I rather like the taken away in handcuffs by the local sheriff on the
front page of the paper. In small towns, that's the kiss of death.

If you ever google the guy that will show up in the local paper
section for a long, long time.

[Fred the Red Shirt]

On Aug 23, 9:31 am, Ed Rasimus > wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:42:44 +0100, "William Black"
>
> ...
>
> >1. Why do the fakers do it?
>
> For the same reason people steal. They wish to have something of value
> which they did not earn.
>
> While they may have devalued military service in general and heroism
> in particular they believe as well that they accrue some benefit by
> claiming exceptional combat valor, courage and credentials.
>

As hard as it may be to do, I think they devalue only themselves.

They cannot devalue that to which they have no claims.

--

FF

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, William Black
> writes
>If you 'plug in' to the ex-service system you'll certainly come into contact
>with people who will know, and there's no advantage in pretending you're
>something you are not.

Exposing "walts" is one of the approved sports on the Army Rumour
Service, for example. It's just not wise to pretend to be what you're
not. Someone _will_ ask "so which office were you in, when you were with
MND(SE)?" and claiming "it was so classified I can't tell you" doesn't
work. The floorplan was known to all present, including who was allowed
into which corridors with what clearances.

(FWIW I was in Room G029 :) But that was in 2005 and they've doubtless
reorganised since then)

>Back in this thread someone mentioned that someone pretended to be a MoH
>winner.
>
>Surely something like that would be exploded in seconds, it's not as if
>there are that many of them. Certainly, in the UK, a VC winner would be
>someone of note in the local community and someone claiming to be one who
>nobody knew about would be liable to be checked out reasonably quickly.
>
>What advantage accrues to someone in the USA if they pretend to have had a
>distinguished military career?

Be fair, the US are a lot nicer to their servicemen than the UK is in
general and some silly sods may decide that being a "decorated hero" may
mean even _more_ benefits, trust and gifts than simply "having served".

I once got bought dinner by one Paul Lemmen, who claimed to have been a
PIRA brigade commander before he defected and started a new life in the
US, and in 2004 was given to wandering around Washington DC in US Army
uniform with brigadier-generals' rank tabs and licence plates before
heading out to Iraq to continue the feat. Last I heard of him he'd been
arrested and was in custody on assorted fraud and embezzlement charges.
He seemed to be able to make a nice living out of sheer brass neck and
claiming to be One of Our Boys, for a while at least. (He cost me
nothing: others who trusted him more, did rather worse)

I've only got one medal and it's only for "showing up, sticking around
and not screwing up _too_ much". Campaign medals cover a multitude of
sins.

--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides


paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com

[CJ Adams]

Paul J. Adam wrote:
>
>
> I've only got one medal and it's only for "showing up, sticking around
> and not screwing up _too_ much". Campaign medals cover a multitude of sins.
>

So do I. So many people have seen me as a unimedalist that
I couldn't claim much greatness. Keeps us honest, doesn't it?

Cheers
CJ Adams CD & scar

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
>
> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Chuck and Mary Shantag, mentioned in the original post, are the
> > premier sleuths in digging up the facts on these folks. The poseurs
> > and wannabes are despicable and should be prosecuted to the maximum
> > extent of the law. Chuck and Mary do a great job of that. They come to
> > the annual River Rats reunions and are well supported by all of us.
>
> You miss my point.
>
> 1. Why do the fakers do it?

They are mentally ill or they are crooks. Or both.

>
> 2. Why do people like the Shantags spend their lives looking for them?
>

Why don't you ask him ?
What is soo odd about standing up for something or someone who no longer
can do so for themselves ?

The fakes dishonor those who died and those who came back injured.


> While there may be some false glamour is the pretence it's surely only a
> matter of time before they're exposed, and as for chasing them, don't
> these people have a life? If you want to spend your time doing good works I
> can think of several that are more rewarding.

What you consider rewarding may very well be considered worthless by
others.
Why did Jane Goodall spend her life in the jungles of Africa ?
Why do school teachers spend their lives in a classroom when in many
districts the administration does it's best to thwart their efforts to
teach ?




--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
>
> Personally I still lean toward cutting off their buttons, ripping
> their epaulets, breaking their saber over my knee and tossing them out
> the gate...but that's just me.

The only proper punishment...

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

[tankfixer]

In article <6c5a027f-d2c5-4246-8443-57450187bd6c@
79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, says...
> On Aug 23, 1:29 pm, "Bob McKellar" > wrote:
> > Whatever happened to the resident RAM IRA operative/USAF General?
> >
> > Bob McKellar
>
> I think that's the boy, the last I heard he was discussing housing
> accommodations with a local arm of the law. Probably let him go.

last information I've seen is he was held without bail prior to trial.
That was in may 2007

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

[The Horny Goat]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT), frank
> wrote:

>I rather like the taken away in handcuffs by the local sheriff on the
>front page of the paper. In small towns, that's the kiss of death.
>
>If you ever google the guy that will show up in the local paper
>section for a long, long time.

I'm not so sure about that.

My mother was killed in a rather spectacular car crash in January 2005
and there were zillions of Google hits at the time. I was interviewed
by 3 reporters that week and I can assure you that it was no picnic.
(They were fair and I knew they were doing their job but still...)

I checked about two weeks ago and nada.

So don't make that assumption - I'm assuming by "for a long, long
time" you mean longer than 3 1/2 years...

[La N]

"Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
...
> On Aug 23, 1:29 pm, "Bob McKellar" > wrote:
>> Whatever happened to the resident RAM IRA operative/USAF General?
>>
>> Bob McKellar
>
> I think that's the boy, the last I heard he was discussing housing
> accommodations with a local arm of the law. Probably let him go.

Now *this* is a guy who did what he did to "win friends and influence
people", and to relieve some individuals and governments of some $pare
change.

- nilita

[La N]

"The Horny Goat" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT), frank
> > wrote:
>
>>I rather like the taken away in handcuffs by the local sheriff on the
>>front page of the paper. In small towns, that's the kiss of death.
>>
>>If you ever google the guy that will show up in the local paper
>>section for a long, long time.
>
> I'm not so sure about that.
>
> My mother was killed in a rather spectacular car crash in January 2005
> and there were zillions of Google hits at the time. I was interviewed
> by 3 reporters that week and I can assure you that it was no picnic.
> (They were fair and I knew they were doing their job but still...)
>

Geeze. I'm sorry ... I don't know what else to say ... :(

- nilita

[La N]

"tankfixer" > wrote in message
...
> In article <6c5a027f-d2c5-4246-8443-57450187bd6c@
> 79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, says...
>> On Aug 23, 1:29 pm, "Bob McKellar" > wrote:
>> > Whatever happened to the resident RAM IRA operative/USAF General?
>> >
>> > Bob McKellar
>>
>> I think that's the boy, the last I heard he was discussing housing
>> accommodations with a local arm of the law. Probably let him go.
>
> last information I've seen is he was held without bail prior to trial.
> That was in may 2007
>

Well, for the reading enjoyment of the general audience, I offer this:

http://www.specsec.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/lemmen-detention-order.pdf

- nilita

[tankfixer]

In article <NV3sk.9483$%b7.5738@edtnps82>,
says...
>
> "tankfixer" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article <6c5a027f-d2c5-4246-8443-57450187bd6c@
> > 79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, says...
> >> On Aug 23, 1:29 pm, "Bob McKellar" > wrote:
> >> > Whatever happened to the resident RAM IRA operative/USAF General?
> >> >
> >> > Bob McKellar
> >>
> >> I think that's the boy, the last I heard he was discussing housing
> >> accommodations with a local arm of the law. Probably let him go.
> >
> > last information I've seen is he was held without bail prior to trial.
> > That was in may 2007
> >
>
> Well, for the reading enjoyment of the general audience, I offer this:
>
> http://www.specsec.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/lemmen-detention-order.pdf
>

Yup.

Like a former commander I had.
Rumor is she got in a bit of trouble after leaving us for a new post but
I can't confirm it, yet.


--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

[La N]

"tankfixer" > wrote in message
...
> In article <NV3sk.9483$%b7.5738@edtnps82>,
> says...
>>
>> "tankfixer" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article <6c5a027f-d2c5-4246-8443-57450187bd6c@
>> > 79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, says...
>> >> On Aug 23, 1:29 pm, "Bob McKellar" > wrote:
>> >> > Whatever happened to the resident RAM IRA operative/USAF General?
>> >> >
>> >> > Bob McKellar
>> >>
>> >> I think that's the boy, the last I heard he was discussing housing
>> >> accommodations with a local arm of the law. Probably let him go.
>> >
>> > last information I've seen is he was held without bail prior to trial.
>> > That was in may 2007
>> >
>>
>> Well, for the reading enjoyment of the general audience, I offer this:
>>
>> http://www.specsec.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/lemmen-detention-order.pdf
>>
>
> Yup.
>
> Like a former commander I had.
> Rumor is she got in a bit of trouble after leaving us for a new post but
> I can't confirm it, yet.
>

So many phoneys, so little time ....

- nilita (colour me jaded)

[Dan[_12_]]

La N wrote:
> "tankfixer" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article <NV3sk.9483$%b7.5738@edtnps82>,
>> says...
>>> "tankfixer" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> In article <6c5a027f-d2c5-4246-8443-57450187bd6c@
>>>> 79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, says...
>>>>> On Aug 23, 1:29 pm, "Bob McKellar" > wrote:
>>>>>> Whatever happened to the resident RAM IRA operative/USAF General?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob McKellar
>>>>> I think that's the boy, the last I heard he was discussing housing
>>>>> accommodations with a local arm of the law. Probably let him go.
>>>> last information I've seen is he was held without bail prior to trial.
>>>> That was in may 2007
>>>>
>>> Well, for the reading enjoyment of the general audience, I offer this:
>>>
>>> http://www.specsec.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/lemmen-detention-order.pdf
>>>
>> Yup.
>>
>> Like a former commander I had.
>> Rumor is she got in a bit of trouble after leaving us for a new post but
>> I can't confirm it, yet.
>>
>
> So many phoneys, so little time ....
>
> - nilita (colour me jaded)
>
>

That's why I don't want my tax dollars going after the relatively
small cases where some fool is just shooting his mouth off. In the case
of someone who uses fictitious credentials for personal gain or to cause
harm I'd say nail him to the wall.

In the days when all one needed to get a military discount for airfare
I'd see men wearing uniforms who were obviously not authorized. Little
clues like hair length and improper insignia would be missed even by
actual servicemen. I once pointed out to someone with whom I was
traveling an Air Force sergeant who was wearing a WW2 Victory Medal.
This was in the 1970s. The man with whom I was traveling hadn't noticed
and he had been in longer than I had.

Sometimes I wonder what the fakers are thinking. I once saw a soldier
in uniform getting carded by a noncom in front of the Ft. Eustis PX. The
soldier said he didn't have an identity card because he had "only been
in a short while." Maybe he wanted to go shopping and hang out with real
soldiers, but was it really worth the risk, albeit small, of jail time?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[tankfixer]

In article <lg4sk.9486$%b7.1897@edtnps82>,
says...
>
> "tankfixer" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article <NV3sk.9483$%b7.5738@edtnps82>,
> > says...
> >>
> >> "tankfixer" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > In article <6c5a027f-d2c5-4246-8443-57450187bd6c@
> >> > 79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, says...
> >> >> On Aug 23, 1:29 pm, "Bob McKellar" > wrote:
> >> >> > Whatever happened to the resident RAM IRA operative/USAF General?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Bob McKellar
> >> >>
> >> >> I think that's the boy, the last I heard he was discussing housing
> >> >> accommodations with a local arm of the law. Probably let him go.
> >> >
> >> > last information I've seen is he was held without bail prior to trial.
> >> > That was in may 2007
> >> >
> >>
> >> Well, for the reading enjoyment of the general audience, I offer this:
> >>
> >> http://www.specsec.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/lemmen-detention-order.pdf
> >>
> >
> > Yup.
> >
> > Like a former commander I had.
> > Rumor is she got in a bit of trouble after leaving us for a new post but
> > I can't confirm it, yet.
> >
>
> So many phoneys, so little time ....
>

She was a phony in uniform.
I've never worked for someone who in two years never learned thier
subordinates names, first or last...

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

[korben dallas]

Tiger wrote:
> ...

what did you expect? the message that is delivered loud and clear into
the head of every person living in the usa is: "fake? no problem, as
long as it sounds patriotic". its results are visible on all levels,
ranging from "wmd in iraq", through us cities posting "patriotic"
bull**** on their websites (like http://www.solvangca.com/flag/1.htm),
to veterans exaggerating their service records, and to crooks posing as
veterans. the vietnam vet idea is a story in itself. can you imagine an
ss veteran in germany driving around with a car sticker identifying him
as such?

[Richard Casady]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 02:12:48 -0700, korben dallas >
wrote:

>Tiger wrote:
> > ...
>
>what did you expect? the message that is delivered loud and clear into
>the head of every person living in the usa is: "fake? no problem, as
>long as it sounds patriotic". its results are visible on all levels,
>ranging from "wmd in iraq", through us cities posting "patriotic"
>bull**** on their websites (like http://www.solvangca.com/flag/1.htm),
>to veterans exaggerating their service records, and to crooks posing as
>veterans. the vietnam vet idea is a story in itself. can you imagine an
>ss veteran in germany driving around with a car sticker identifying him
>as such?

After WWII there was a lapel pin for US vets. It was a representation
of an eagle, and it was commonly referred to as the " Ruptured Duck"

Casady

[Richard Casady]

>She was a phony in uniform.
>I've never worked for someone who in two years never learned thier
>subordinates names, first or last...

Name tags were universal by the sixties, if not before. Hardly a chore
to learn the names of coworkers.

Casady

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>
> >She was a phony in uniform.
> >I've never worked for someone who in two years never learned thier
> >subordinates names, first or last...
>
> Name tags were universal by the sixties, if not before. Hardly a chore
> to learn the names of coworkers.

I know...
That is what made it so amazing.





--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

[Bill Kambic]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 13:14:20 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 02:12:48 -0700, korben dallas >
>wrote:
>
>>Tiger wrote:
>> > ...
>>
>>what did you expect? the message that is delivered loud and clear into
>>the head of every person living in the usa is: "fake? no problem, as
>>long as it sounds patriotic". its results are visible on all levels,
>>ranging from "wmd in iraq", through us cities posting "patriotic"
>>bull**** on their websites (like http://www.solvangca.com/flag/1.htm),
>>to veterans exaggerating their service records, and to crooks posing as
>>veterans. the vietnam vet idea is a story in itself. can you imagine an
>>ss veteran in germany driving around with a car sticker identifying him
>>as such?
>
>After WWII there was a lapel pin for US vets. It was a representation
>of an eagle, and it was commonly referred to as the " Ruptured Duck"

This was a very practical "decoration."

When the War ended there was a serious shortage of civilian clothes
for several million demobilized vets. This pin was developed to allow
a vet to wear uniform items without running afoul of Federal laws on
military uniform wear. It was not meant to be a "bumper sticker."

[The Horny Goat]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 02:19:47 GMT, "La N" >
wrote:

>> I'm not so sure about that.
>>
>> My mother was killed in a rather spectacular car crash in January 2005
>> and there were zillions of Google hits at the time. I was interviewed
>> by 3 reporters that week and I can assure you that it was no picnic.
>> (They were fair and I knew they were doing their job but still...)
>>
>
>Geeze. I'm sorry ... I don't know what else to say ... :(

No problem - it's old news now.

After 3 1/2 years you either have to deal with it or blow one's
friggin' brains out.

I'm sorry she won't be there for my eldest's college graduation next
year but one goes on. One simply has to.

My point though stands - her passing was rather spectacular and got
quite a lot of press coverage which was reflected in Google.

Now - nada.

So don't count on news stories of yesteryear staying on line forever.

[The Horny Goat]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 22:00:49 -0700, tankfixer
> wrote:

>She was a phony in uniform.
>I've never worked for someone who in two years never learned thier
>subordinates names, first or last...

Heck after two years most know the names of subordinates' kids at
least if they've been on deployment together.

[tankfixer]

In article >,
says...
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 22:00:49 -0700, tankfixer
> > wrote:
>
> >She was a phony in uniform.
> >I've never worked for someone who in two years never learned thier
> >subordinates names, first or last...
>
> Heck after two years most know the names of subordinates' kids at
> least if they've been on deployment together.

Exactly....


--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

[frank]

On Aug 24, 4:12*am, korben dallas > wrote:
> Tiger wrote:
>
> *> ...
>
> what did you expect? the message that is delivered loud and clear into
> the head of every person living in the usa is: "fake? no problem, as
> long as it sounds patriotic". its results are visible on all levels,
> ranging from "wmd in iraq", through us cities posting "patriotic"
> bull**** on their websites (likehttp://www.solvangca.com/flag/1.htm),
> to veterans exaggerating their service records, and to crooks posing as
> veterans. the vietnam vet idea is a story in itself. can you imagine an
> ss veteran in germany driving around with a car sticker identifying him
> as such?

Go to snopes.com enter folding US flag, you'll get a few hits.

What is sad is stories like this 'sound' true, but they're not. There
is a whole lot of them going around about Taps that aren't true. Not
to mention the one about the Marine chaplain and the whole bit about
how everything was due to a veteran. Sounds nice, but not true. But,
its read and copied in all the papers on Veterans day.

I guess people who don't know history need the short stuff. It would
be better to read about Chosin, Peleliu, The Thousand Plane Raid, you
can probably come up with a list depending on what your area of
interest was or when and what you did in the service or what your
branch of service was.

[Dan[_12_]]

Richard Casady wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 02:12:48 -0700, korben dallas >
> wrote:
>
>> Tiger wrote:
>>> ...
>> what did you expect? the message that is delivered loud and clear into
>> the head of every person living in the usa is: "fake? no problem, as
>> long as it sounds patriotic". its results are visible on all levels,
>> ranging from "wmd in iraq", through us cities posting "patriotic"
>> bull**** on their websites (like http://www.solvangca.com/flag/1.htm),
>> to veterans exaggerating their service records, and to crooks posing as
>> veterans. the vietnam vet idea is a story in itself. can you imagine an
>> ss veteran in germany driving around with a car sticker identifying him
>> as such?
>
> After WWII there was a lapel pin for US vets. It was a representation
> of an eagle, and it was commonly referred to as the " Ruptured Duck"
>
> Casady

That was U.S. Army. The Navy got a metal doughnut button.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[tomcervo]

On Aug 24, 5:12�am, korben dallas > wrote:
> Tiger wrote:
>
> �> ...
>
> what did you expect? the message that is delivered loud and clear into
> the head of every person living in the usa is: "fake? no problem, as
> long as it sounds patriotic". its results are visible on all levels,
> ranging from "wmd in iraq", through us cities posting "patriotic"
> bull**** on their websites (likehttp://www.solvangca.com/flag/1.htm),
> to veterans exaggerating their service records, and to crooks posing as
> veterans. the vietnam vet idea is a story in itself. can you imagine an
> ss veteran in germany driving around with a car sticker identifying him
> as such?

If he is, he's probably not driving very fast, and his left turn light
is blinking.

[Richard Casady]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 20:39:57 -0700 (PDT), frank
> wrote:

>On Aug 24, 4:12*am, korben dallas > wrote:
>> Tiger wrote:
>>
>> *> ...
>>
>> what did you expect? the message that is delivered loud and clear into
>> the head of every person living in the usa is: "fake? no problem, as
>> long as it sounds patriotic". its results are visible on all levels,
>> ranging from "wmd in iraq", through us cities posting "patriotic"
>> bull**** on their websites (likehttp://www.solvangca.com/flag/1.htm),
>> to veterans exaggerating their service records, and to crooks posing as
>> veterans. the vietnam vet idea is a story in itself. can you imagine an
>> ss veteran in germany driving around with a car sticker identifying him
>> as such?
>
>Go to snopes.com enter folding US flag, you'll get a few hits.
>
>What is sad is stories like this 'sound' true, but they're not. There
>is a whole lot of them going around about Taps that aren't true. Not
>to mention the one about the Marine chaplain and the whole bit about
>how everything was due to a veteran. Sounds nice, but not true. But,
>its read and copied in all the papers on Veterans day.
>
>I guess people who don't know history need the short stuff. It would
>be better to read about Chosin, Peleliu, The Thousand Plane Raid, you
>can probably come up with a list depending on what your area of
>interest was or when and what you did in the service or what your
>branch of service was.

The USAF guys might have heard about the WWII raid , schweinfurt,
where they lost 50 of 260 planes. Some USAF guys may even have heard
of khe sahn, or Midway. Or Canae, or Trafalger.

Casady

[frank]

On Aug 23, 10:28*pm, Dan > wrote:
> La N wrote:
> > "tankfixer" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> In article <NV3sk.9483$%b7.5738@edtnps82>,
> >> says...
> >>> "tankfixer" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>> In article <6c5a027f-d2c5-4246-8443-57450187bd6c@
> >>>> 79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, says...
> >>>>> On Aug 23, 1:29 pm, "Bob McKellar" > wrote:
> >>>>>> Whatever happened to the resident RAM IRA operative/USAF General?
>
> >>>>>> Bob McKellar
> >>>>> I think that's the boy, the last I heard he was discussing housing
> >>>>> accommodations with a local arm of the law. Probably let him go.
> >>>> last information I've seen is he was held without bail prior to trial.
> >>>> That was in may 2007
>
> >>> Well, for the reading enjoyment of the general audience, I offer this:
>
> >>>http://www.specsec.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/lemmen-detention-or....
>
> >> Yup.
>
> >> Like a former commander I had.
> >> Rumor is she got in a bit of trouble after leaving us for a new post but
> >> I can't confirm it, yet.
>
> > So many phoneys, so little time ....
>
> > - nilita (colour me jaded)
>
> * *That's why I don't want my tax dollars going after the relatively
> small cases where some fool is just shooting his mouth off. In the case
> of someone who uses fictitious credentials for personal gain or to cause
> harm I'd say nail him to the wall.
>
> * *In the days when all one needed to get a military discount for airfare
> I'd see men wearing uniforms who were obviously not authorized. Little
> clues like hair length and improper insignia would be missed even by
> actual servicemen. I once pointed out to someone with whom I was
> traveling an Air Force sergeant who was wearing a WW2 Victory Medal.
> This was in the 1970s. The man with whom I was traveling hadn't noticed
> and he had been in longer than I had.
>
> * *Sometimes I wonder what the fakers are thinking. I once saw a soldier
> in uniform getting carded by a noncom in front of the Ft. Eustis PX. The
> soldier said he didn't have an identity card because he had "only been
> in a short while." Maybe he wanted to go shopping and hang out with real
> soldiers, but was it really worth the risk, albeit small, of jail time?
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I thought you had to have ID or orders? I know they'd put you in First
Class if you were in uniform and there was room.

[frank]

On Aug 25, 8:27*am, tomcervo > wrote:
> On Aug 24, 5:12 am, korben dallas > wrote:
>
> > Tiger wrote:
>
> > > ...
>
> > what did you expect? the message that is delivered loud and clear into
> > the head of every person living in the usa is: "fake? no problem, as
> > long as it sounds patriotic". its results are visible on all levels,
> > ranging from "wmd in iraq", through us cities posting "patriotic"
> > bull**** on their websites (likehttp://www.solvangca.com/flag/1.htm),
> > to veterans exaggerating their service records, and to crooks posing as
> > veterans. the vietnam vet idea is a story in itself. can you imagine an
> > ss veteran in germany driving around with a car sticker identifying him
> > as such?
>
> If he is, he's probably not driving very fast, and his left turn light
> is blinking.

Yeah, then if the Politzei pull him over, try to get him for pro Nazi
feelings, he can say he's a NASCAR fan. ...

...In Missouri, turn signals are only used IF they are on if they were
that way when you bought the car. And yeah, I lived in Missouri.

[Dan[_12_]]

frank wrote:
> On Aug 23, 10:28 pm, Dan > wrote:
>> La N wrote:
>>> "tankfixer" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> In article <NV3sk.9483$%b7.5738@edtnps82>,
>>>> says...
>>>>> "tankfixer" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> In article <6c5a027f-d2c5-4246-8443-57450187bd6c@
>>>>>> 79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, says...
>>>>>>> On Aug 23, 1:29 pm, "Bob McKellar" > wrote:
>>>>>>>> Whatever happened to the resident RAM IRA operative/USAF General?
>>>>>>>> Bob McKellar
>>>>>>> I think that's the boy, the last I heard he was discussing housing
>>>>>>> accommodations with a local arm of the law. Probably let him go.
>>>>>> last information I've seen is he was held without bail prior to trial.
>>>>>> That was in may 2007
>>>>> Well, for the reading enjoyment of the general audience, I offer this:
>>>>> http://www.specsec.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/lemmen-detention-or...
>>>> Yup.
>>>> Like a former commander I had.
>>>> Rumor is she got in a bit of trouble after leaving us for a new post but
>>>> I can't confirm it, yet.
>>> So many phoneys, so little time ....
>>> - nilita (colour me jaded)
>> That's why I don't want my tax dollars going after the relatively
>> small cases where some fool is just shooting his mouth off. In the case
>> of someone who uses fictitious credentials for personal gain or to cause
>> harm I'd say nail him to the wall.
>>
>> In the days when all one needed to get a military discount for airfare
>> I'd see men wearing uniforms who were obviously not authorized. Little
>> clues like hair length and improper insignia would be missed even by
>> actual servicemen. I once pointed out to someone with whom I was
>> traveling an Air Force sergeant who was wearing a WW2 Victory Medal.
>> This was in the 1970s. The man with whom I was traveling hadn't noticed
>> and he had been in longer than I had.
>>
>> Sometimes I wonder what the fakers are thinking. I once saw a soldier
>> in uniform getting carded by a noncom in front of the Ft. Eustis PX. The
>> soldier said he didn't have an identity card because he had "only been
>> in a short while." Maybe he wanted to go shopping and hang out with real
>> soldiers, but was it really worth the risk, albeit small, of jail time?
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> I thought you had to have ID or orders? I know they'd put you in First
> Class if you were in uniform and there was room.

A long time ago the uniform was usually enough. In the 1970s I don't
recall ever getting carded. In the 1980s I started getting carded, but
by then I rarely traveled commercial in uniform.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[tomcervo]

On Aug 25, 9:27�am, tomcervo > wrote:
> On Aug 24, 5:12 am, korben dallas > wrote:
>
> > Tiger wrote:
>
> > > ...
>
> > what did you expect? the message that is delivered loud and clear into
> > the head of every person living in the usa is: "fake? no problem, as
> > long as it sounds patriotic". its results are visible on all levels,
> > ranging from "wmd in iraq", through us cities posting "patriotic"
> > bull**** on their websites (likehttp://www.solvangca.com/flag/1.htm),
> > to veterans exaggerating their service records, and to crooks posing as
> > veterans. the vietnam vet idea is a story in itself. can you imagine an
> > ss veteran in germany driving around with a car sticker identifying him
> > as such?
>
> If he is, he's probably not driving very fast, and his left turn light
> is blinking.

Oh, and no matter where he's going, he keeps turning towards Poland.

[Leadfoot[_3_]]

>
> There are so many that they must be organized on alphabetical pages
> and even then it takes considerable scrolling to get to the bottom.


As an enlisted type you can first enounter these types as early as the MEPS
station where they will state they are just "waiting for the paperwork to
get through so they can be officers and then on to pilot training" I had
one of these idiots tell me the same line of BS in Basic and then watched as
he turned away and saluted the Squadron Training Officer with a cigarette in
his saluting hand. The resulting ass chewing was certainly enjoyable to
watch.


>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com
> www.thunderchief.org