GPS-NAV security sealing

[Sam Discusflyer[_2_]]

Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and seal it
without spending hundreds of dollars?

Inquiring minds want to know.
Steve Michalik

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

Sam Discusflyer wrote:
> Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and seal it
> without spending hundreds of dollars?

May I assume that is what NK wants to charge you? It's a 15 minute job
if is nothing else is wrong with the unit. You can also try your local
authorized Cambridge dealer, but they'll have to call NK to get the
resealing code...

Marc

[ContestID67]

First, there is no way that you, an average Joe (Steve), can do this.
Everything to do with flight recorders must be secure so that you can
be in contests, set records, get badges or post to the OLC.

http://www.craggyaero.com/calibration.htm does reseals for $40 (which
isn't "hundreds of dollars").

- John

[Sam Discusflyer[_2_]]

So humor me some education, and cost aside for the moment, why is it that
CraggyAero or John can do this? Is there some special procedure, some
special certification or training that is required by the FAI? What
ensures and/or audits a commercial operation who is using computer
software to set the security to ensure it is done properly? I want to
understand the difference between the average joe (me) and a commercial
operation doing this task that was / still is in some instances conducted
by the 'official observer' on paper?





At 09:20 26 August 2008, ContestID67 wrote:
>First, there is no way that you, an average Joe (Steve), can do this.
>Everything to do with flight recorders must be secure so that you can
>be in contests, set records, get badges or post to the OLC.
>
>http://www.craggyaero.com/calibration.htm does reseals for $40 (which
>isn't "hundreds of dollars").
>
>- John
>

[[email protected]]

On Aug 25, 10:54*pm, Sam Discusflyer >
wrote:
> Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and seal it
> without spending hundreds of dollars?
>
> Inquiring minds want to know.
> Steve Michalik

Exact cost for 1 day turnaround by Gary at NK the week before last was
$130 including memory battery , calibration chart,and next day return
delivery.
My experience is that this is excellent service for a very fair price.
Certainly not the "hundreds of dollars" you seem to anticipate.
UH

[5Z]

On Aug 26, 6:39*am, Sam Discusflyer > wrote:
> I want to understand the difference between the average joe (me) and a commercial
> operation doing this task that was / still is in some instances conducted
> by the 'official observer' on paper?

What task is that?

The FR is a "secure" instrument that is protected by a variety of
methods to prevent tampering. The GPS-NAV is the oldest of these
devices and depends on an internal battery to keep the seal intact, so
this battery must be replaced regularly (for example, during
calibration). If the battery goes bad, then an authorized facility
must reseal the unit. This way, that facility is held responsible for
any "unusual" IGC files that may come out of this FR.

If 'any Joe' could seal the FR, then prior to sealing, the electronics
inside the unit could be modified or replaced by 'Joe', and nobody
would be the wiser. The OO would see a sealed FR, trust it to
generate a true record of the flight, and a valid IGC file would be
generated.

The OO ensures that the pilot and FR were actually onboard the same
glider at the same time, and that, to his best ability, no funny
business was performed by the pilot during the flight. Since the FR
is out of the OO's control during the flight, it must be sealed by a
3rd party, and that seal must not be modifiable by just anyone at any
time.

Yes, there are a lot of holes and vulnerabilities in this system, and
all sorts of interesting ways to hack it, but so far as we know, that
has not been done yet. And the bottom line, is that those are the
rules. If you don't like them, then you can lobby to change them.
But in the meantime, this is what we have.

-Tom

[DRN]

On Aug 26, 8:39 am, Sam Discusflyer > wrote:
> So humor me some education, and cost aside for the moment, why is it that
> CraggyAero or John can do this? Is there some special procedure, some
> special certification or training that is required by the FAI? What
> ensures and/or audits a commercial operation who is using computer
> software to set the security to ensure it is done properly? I want to
> understand the difference between the average joe (me) and a commercial
> operation doing this task that was / still is in some instances conducted
> by the 'official observer' on paper?
>
> At 09:20 26 August 2008, ContestID67 wrote:
>
> >First, there is no way that you, an average Joe (Steve), can do this.
> >Everything to do with flight recorders must be secure so that you can
> >be in contests, set records, get badges or post to the OLC.
>
> >http://www.craggyaero.com/calibration.htmdoes reseals for $40 (which
> >isn't "hundreds of dollars").
>
> >- John

Shhhhh !!
It is very important to maintain the illusion of security !!

See ya, Dave "YO electric"

PS: That's why Tim's reply is written with disappearing ink ;-)

[vontresc]

On Aug 26, 9:37*am, 5Z > wrote:
> On Aug 26, 6:39*am, Sam Discusflyer > wrote:
>
> > I want to understand the difference between the average joe (me) and a commercial
> > operation doing this task that was / still is in some instances conducted
> > by the 'official observer' on paper?
>
> What task is that?
>
> The FR is a "secure" instrument that is protected by a variety of
> methods to prevent tampering. *The GPS-NAV is the oldest of these
> devices and depends on an internal battery to keep the seal intact, so
> this battery must be replaced regularly (for example, during
> calibration). *If the battery goes bad, then an authorized facility
> must reseal the unit. *This way, that facility is held responsible for
> any "unusual" IGC files that may come out of this FR.
>
> If 'any Joe' could seal the FR, then prior to sealing, the electronics
> inside the unit could be modified or replaced by 'Joe', and nobody
> would be the wiser. *The OO would see a sealed FR, trust it to
> generate a true record of the flight, and a valid IGC file would be
> generated.
>
> The OO ensures that the pilot and FR were actually onboard the same
> glider at the same time, and that, to his best ability, no funny
> business was performed by the pilot during the flight. *Since the FR
> is out of the OO's control during the flight, it must be sealed by a
> 3rd party, and that seal must not be modifiable by just anyone at any
> time.
>
> Yes, there are a lot of holes and vulnerabilities in this system, and
> all sorts of interesting ways to hack it, but so far as we know, that
> has not been done yet. *And the bottom line, is that those are the
> rules. *If you don't like them, then you can lobby to change them.
> But in the meantime, this is what we have.
>
> -Tom

OK I am relatively new to the Soaring world, but some of the security
protocols on these loggers seem a bit over the top. Was/is there so
much cheating and mistrust that all of these procedures are
neccessary? I realize that some assurance of not tampering with the
device is neccesary, but does it have to cost so damn much?

Pete

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 15:08 26 August 2008, vontresc wrote:
>On Aug 26, 9:37=A0am, 5Z wrote:
>> On Aug 26, 6:39=A0am, Sam Discusflyer wrote:
>>
>> > I want to understand the difference between the average joe (me) and
a
>=
>commercial
>> > operation doing this task that was / still is in some instances
>conduct=
>ed
>> > by the 'official observer' on paper?
>>
>> What task is that?
>>
>> The FR is a "secure" instrument that is protected by a variety of
>> methods to prevent tampering. =A0The GPS-NAV is the oldest of these
>> devices and depends on an internal battery to keep the seal intact, so
>> this battery must be replaced regularly (for example, during
>> calibration). =A0If the battery goes bad, then an authorized facility
>> must reseal the unit. =A0This way, that facility is held responsible
for
>> any "unusual" IGC files that may come out of this FR.
>>
>> If 'any Joe' could seal the FR, then prior to sealing, the
electronics
>> inside the unit could be modified or replaced by 'Joe', and nobody
>> would be the wiser. =A0The OO would see a sealed FR, trust it to
>> generate a true record of the flight, and a valid IGC file would be
>> generated.
>>
>> The OO ensures that the pilot and FR were actually onboard the same
>> glider at the same time, and that, to his best ability, no funny
>> business was performed by the pilot during the flight. =A0Since the FR
>> is out of the OO's control during the flight, it must be sealed by a
>> 3rd party, and that seal must not be modifiable by just anyone at any
>> time.
>>
>> Yes, there are a lot of holes and vulnerabilities in this system, and
>> all sorts of interesting ways to hack it, but so far as we know, that
>> has not been done yet. =A0And the bottom line, is that those are the
>> rules. =A0If you don't like them, then you can lobby to change them.
>> But in the meantime, this is what we have.
>>
>> -Tom
>
>OK I am relatively new to the Soaring world, but some of the security
>protocols on these loggers seem a bit over the top. Was/is there so
>much cheating and mistrust that all of these procedures are
>neccessary? I realize that some assurance of not tampering with the
>device is neccesary, but does it have to cost so damn much?
>
>Pete


Yes the security is necessary in the sense that it benefits us as
individuals, and the sport in general, to have record, badge, ladder and
contests achievements that are validated to a reasonably secure level.
Fraudulent claims are not unknown in soaring.

John Galloway

[Fred Blair]

Can't you change the internal battery before it gets real low without
breaking the seal?

> wrote in message
...
On Aug 25, 10:54 pm, Sam Discusflyer >
wrote:
> Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and seal it
> without spending hundreds of dollars?
>
> Inquiring minds want to know.
> Steve Michalik

Exact cost for 1 day turnaround by Gary at NK the week before last was
$130 including memory battery , calibration chart,and next day return
delivery.
My experience is that this is excellent service for a very fair price.
Certainly not the "hundreds of dollars" you seem to anticipate.
UH

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

Yes, it is possible to change the backup battery without breaking the seal.
Just keep the unit powered with 12V power while replacing the backup
battery.

The customer that started this thread had the backup battery get too low and
die before it was replaced. The unit then had a security failure and needs
re-sealing.

Paul Remde

"Fred Blair" > wrote in message
...
> Can't you change the internal battery before it gets real low without
> breaking the seal?
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> On Aug 25, 10:54 pm, Sam Discusflyer >
> wrote:
>> Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and seal
>> it
>> without spending hundreds of dollars?
>>
>> Inquiring minds want to know.
>> Steve Michalik
>
> Exact cost for 1 day turnaround by Gary at NK the week before last was
> $130 including memory battery , calibration chart,and next day return
> delivery.
> My experience is that this is excellent service for a very fair price.
> Certainly not the "hundreds of dollars" you seem to anticipate.
> UH
>

[HL Falbaum]

"Paul Remde" > wrote in message
news:vh3tk.315622$yE1.151194@attbi_s21...
> Hi,
>
> Yes, it is possible to change the backup battery without breaking the
> seal. Just keep the unit powered with 12V power while replacing the backup
> battery.
>
> The customer that started this thread had the backup battery get too low
> and die before it was replaced. The unit then had a security failure and
> needs re-sealing.
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Fred Blair" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Can't you change the internal battery before it gets real low without
>> breaking the seal?
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>> On Aug 25, 10:54 pm, Sam Discusflyer >
>> wrote:
>>> Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and seal
>>> it
>>> without spending hundreds of dollars?
>>>
>>> Inquiring minds want to know.
>>> Steve Michalik
>>
>> Exact cost for 1 day turnaround by Gary at NK the week before last was
>> $130 including memory battery , calibration chart,and next day return
>> delivery.
>> My experience is that this is excellent service for a very fair price.
>> Certainly not the "hundreds of dollars" you seem to anticipate.
>> UH
>>
>
The old Cambridge DOS program for the PC reads the voltage of the backup
battery. The Cambridge Nav head also shows the backup voltage upon power-up.
It pay to obsesrve this from time to time.

Hartley Falbaum
USA

[Sam Discusflyer[_2_]]

Yes these are all good answers. And yes I let the battery get low. And you
change the lithium battery while it's hooked up to external supply. But
no I don't use the GPS_NAV display so the voltage doesn't show all the
time. And it will be less cost if I ship through the post office. And no
offense to the vendors.

In this age of computers and rising fuel costs and shipping costs plus
insurance, isn't it possible to make better use of technology and provide
for security sealing by computer communication? We transfer money
electronically don't we? A lot of people have done electronic payments
right? You can give control of your PC to someone over the internet and
they can run a software program on their computer to load a device hooked
up to your computer. And so me average joe doesn't have the key program
to cheat (like I really want to anyway). I know this communication is
possible because I've done it.

So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected to
the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

You can still pay the $20 or $40 dollar cost to the proprieter with paypal
or visa and both parties are happy.

I guess I still have to support Brown Company anyway. Thanks for the
discussion.

Steve Michalik


At 03:24 27 August 2008, HL Falbaum wrote:
>
>"Paul Remde" wrote in message
>news:vh3tk.315622$yE1.151194@attbi_s21...
>> Hi,
>>
>> Yes, it is possible to change the backup battery without breaking the
>> seal. Just keep the unit powered with 12V power while replacing the
>backup
>> battery.
>>
>> The customer that started this thread had the backup battery get too
low
>
>> and die before it was replaced. The unit then had a security failure
>and
>> needs re-sealing.
>>
>> Paul Remde
>>
>> "Fred Blair" wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Can't you change the internal battery before it gets real low without

>>> breaking the seal?
>>>
>>> wrote in message
>>>
...
>>> On Aug 25, 10:54 pm, Sam Discusflyer
>>> wrote:
>>>> Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and
>seal
>>>> it
>>>> without spending hundreds of dollars?
>>>>
>>>> Inquiring minds want to know.
>>>> Steve Michalik
>>>
>>> Exact cost for 1 day turnaround by Gary at NK the week before last
was
>>> $130 including memory battery , calibration chart,and next day return
>>> delivery.
>>> My experience is that this is excellent service for a very fair
price.
>>> Certainly not the "hundreds of dollars" you seem to anticipate.
>>> UH
>>>
>>
>The old Cambridge DOS program for the PC reads the voltage of the
backup
>
>battery. The Cambridge Nav head also shows the backup voltage upon
>power-up.
>It pay to obsesrve this from time to time.
>
>Hartley Falbaum
>USA
>
>
>

[Marc Ramsey[_2_]]

Sam Discusflyer wrote:
> So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected to
> the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?

Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and flight
recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey my
flight recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world records.

The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the interior
of the unit for tampering before resealing. Otherwise, there's not much
point to sealing it in the first place...

Marc

[ContestID67]

A few comments on this thread;

- A reseal is not a recalibration. A recalibration might include a
reseal.
- The $140 (in my case) for NK is to do a complete recalibration
(required by FAI/SSA every 2 years). What does a recalibration do?
As far as I know it doesn't change anything in the recorder. It only
reviews how the pressure altimeter (versus GPS altimeter) relates to
reality. The recalibration process is to put the recorder into a
barometric (hyperbaric) chamber, then change the pressure in the
chamber to preset altitudes, get the recorder's altitude reading and
finally produce a report of any altitude offsets. NK also changes the
battery on GPS-NAVs (which means that they unseal and reseal the
unit?). Is there anything else that is done during a recalibration?
If so it does seem kind of pricey. But then I don't know how much a
barometric chamber costs these days.
- Craggy Aero's cost of $40 (plus s/h) is for a reseal only. Why do
recorders get unsealed? Physical tampering/opening or mechanical
failure are my only thoughts. Are there other possibilities?
- Resealing via the Internet? I'm up for that. But what seems easy to
implement probably isn't in a secure fashion (PC Anywhere
nonwithstanding). In reality there just isn't enough need for reseals
to pay for the development necessary to make this happen...with every
manufacturer...and get FAI approval to do so.
- About why we need all this damned security anyway (from the
Newbie). No doubt there have been cases of tampering with the
evidence, human nature being what it is. I can also imagine that
during the migration from mechanical recorders to electronic
recorders, there was a fear that electronics were more suseptible to
tampering. Mechanical recorders seem more secure because you can SEE
what they are doing. It's called resistance to change which is rather
rampant in the aviation field. Thus they chose to set the security
bar high. How high? You can't open the device without tripping the
unsealed flag. I guess I don't call that too invasive.
- How can Craggy (and others) do a reseal or recalibration but not us
regular Joes? Craggy has been blessed by the manufacturer similar to
being an authorized service center. He also has the proper
equipment. I believe for a reseal, he also has to call the
manufacturer to get a code. Could he get in cahoots with someone to
fake a world record? It would take some pretty good technical skill
to tamper with things, but if you could, consider the fame and
fortune!! Yeah. Right.
- I may be a heretic to say so but is a recalibration really
necessary? Hmmmm. I don't see an OLC rule requiring it. Do they ask
for calibration documentation at regional, national or world
competitions? For badges you are requested to send in a copy of the
recalibration report (less than 2 years old as of the date of the
flight). However, you can wait up to 1 month AFTER your epic flight
to get the recalibration done. Strange but true. My calibration is
due next Feb. However, I am unlikely to need it any time soon unless
I get a lucky break and make a gold leg. I will probably wait until
after my next epic badge flight. I am less clear about the rules
surrounding records.
- Is a reseal really necessary? I would have to say yes. A broken
security seal marks the IGC file as forever bad. No amount of
resealing or recalibration will fix that. This means that you epic
flight is toast and only good for vicarious reliving of your past
glories in SeeYou.

My $0.02.

- John DeRosa

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:21:12 -0700, ContestID67 wrote:

Minor clarification:

> For badges you are requested to send in a copy of the recalibration
> report (less than 2 years old as of the date of the flight). However,
> you can wait up to 1 month AFTER your epic flight to get the
> recalibration done.
>
A calibration certificate within -2yrs to + 1 month is only needed for a
height claim, not for distance or duration. In these cases the logger
altitude doesn't need to be accurate because all it has to do is to show
that you didn't land and take a relight or trailer the glider during the
task.

That applies here in the UK and, AFAIK, worldwide unless you have local
rules I don't know about.

> Strange but true. My calibration is due next Feb.
>
I don't think that's so strange. The logger isn't likely to drift much
during that month.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Richard[_1_]]

On Aug 26, 9:09*pm, Sam Discusflyer > wrote:
> Yes these are all good answers. And yes I let the battery get low. And you
> change the lithium battery while it's hooked up to external supply. But
> no I don't use the GPS_NAV display so the voltage doesn't show all the
> time. And it will be less cost if I ship through the post office. And no
> offense to the vendors.
>
> In this age of computers and rising fuel costs and shipping costs plus
> insurance, isn't it possible to make better use of technology and provide
> for security sealing by computer communication? *We transfer money
> electronically don't we? A lot of people have done electronic payments
> right? *You can give control of your PC to someone over the internet and
> they can run a software program on their computer to load a device hooked
> up to your computer. And so me average joe doesn't have the key program
> to cheat (like I really want to anyway). I know this communication is
> possible because I've done it. *
>
> So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected to
> the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #? *
>
> You can still pay the $20 or $40 dollar cost to the proprieter with paypal
> or visa and both parties are happy.
>
> I guess I still have to support Brown Company anyway. Thanks for the
> discussion.
>
> Steve Michalik
>
> At 03:24 27 August 2008, HL Falbaum wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Paul Remde" *wrote in message
> >news:vh3tk.315622$yE1.151194@attbi_s21...
> >> Hi,
>
> >> Yes, it is possible to change the backup battery without breaking the
> >> seal. Just keep the unit powered with 12V power while replacing the
> >backup
> >> battery.
>
> >> The customer that started this thread had the backup battery get too
> low
>
> >> and die before it was replaced. *The unit then had a security failure
> >and
> >> needs re-sealing.
>
> >> Paul Remde
>
> >> "Fred Blair" *wrote in message
> ...
> >>> Can't you change the internal battery before it gets real low without
> >>> breaking the seal?
>
> >>> *wrote in message
>
> ...
> >>> On Aug 25, 10:54 pm, Sam Discusflyer
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and
> >seal
> >>>> it
> >>>> without spending hundreds of dollars?
>
> >>>> Inquiring minds want to know.
> >>>> Steve Michalik
>
> >>> Exact cost for 1 day turnaround by Gary at NK the week before last
> was
> >>> $130 including memory battery , calibration chart,and next day return
> >>> delivery.
> >>> My experience is that this is excellent service for a very fair
> price.
> >>> Certainly not the "hundreds of dollars" you seem to anticipate.
> >>> UH
>
> >The old Cambridge DOS program for the PC * reads the voltage of the
> backup
>
> >battery. The Cambridge Nav head also shows the backup voltage upon
> >power-up.
> >It pay to obsesrve this from time to time.
>
> >Hartley Falbaum
> >USA- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sam,

I provide calibration for $60 + $40 to reset seal = $100 + shipping.
My Standard turn is 1 day. If I receive today I will ship back
tomorrow. I find that many customers appreciate this service as they
can save $ on shipping by using US Priotiy Mail or FEDEX Saver.

I would replace the battery every year. They are inexpensive.
Powering the recorder while replacing the battery does not break the
electronic security seal. Take the top cover GPS Antenna off while
the recorder is powered and replace the battery. Use a CR2330
battery, this is 5mm thicker than the recommended battery BR or CR
2325, and insures good contact.

http://www.craggyaero.com/calibration.htm

Thanks

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Paul Remde]

Hi Steve,

I understand your point and I agree with it. I do web conferencing all the
time and connect to the customer's computer so I can see that they are doing
and walk them through procedures. With their permission I can even control
their PC. That method could probably be used to re-seal your GPS-NAV. I
would be in control from my office and I would enter the re-seal codes told
to me over the phone by NK. Give me a call if you want to give it a try.
Since I'm in full control and you can't duplicate what I'm doing, I don't
see any reason why there would be any security concerns.

Paul Remde

"Sam Discusflyer" > wrote in message
...
> Yes these are all good answers. And yes I let the battery get low. And you
> change the lithium battery while it's hooked up to external supply. But
> no I don't use the GPS_NAV display so the voltage doesn't show all the
> time. And it will be less cost if I ship through the post office. And no
> offense to the vendors.
>
> In this age of computers and rising fuel costs and shipping costs plus
> insurance, isn't it possible to make better use of technology and provide
> for security sealing by computer communication? We transfer money
> electronically don't we? A lot of people have done electronic payments
> right? You can give control of your PC to someone over the internet and
> they can run a software program on their computer to load a device hooked
> up to your computer. And so me average joe doesn't have the key program
> to cheat (like I really want to anyway). I know this communication is
> possible because I've done it.
>
> So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected to
> the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?
>
> You can still pay the $20 or $40 dollar cost to the proprieter with paypal
> or visa and both parties are happy.
>
> I guess I still have to support Brown Company anyway. Thanks for the
> discussion.
>
> Steve Michalik
>
>
> At 03:24 27 August 2008, HL Falbaum wrote:
>>
>>"Paul Remde" wrote in message
>>news:vh3tk.315622$yE1.151194@attbi_s21...
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Yes, it is possible to change the backup battery without breaking the
>>> seal. Just keep the unit powered with 12V power while replacing the
>>backup
>>> battery.
>>>
>>> The customer that started this thread had the backup battery get too
> low
>>
>>> and die before it was replaced. The unit then had a security failure
>>and
>>> needs re-sealing.
>>>
>>> Paul Remde
>>>
>>> "Fred Blair" wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Can't you change the internal battery before it gets real low without
>
>>>> breaking the seal?
>>>>
>>>> wrote in message
>>>>
...
>>>> On Aug 25, 10:54 pm, Sam Discusflyer
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and
>>seal
>>>>> it
>>>>> without spending hundreds of dollars?
>>>>>
>>>>> Inquiring minds want to know.
>>>>> Steve Michalik
>>>>
>>>> Exact cost for 1 day turnaround by Gary at NK the week before last
> was
>>>> $130 including memory battery , calibration chart,and next day return
>>>> delivery.
>>>> My experience is that this is excellent service for a very fair
> price.
>>>> Certainly not the "hundreds of dollars" you seem to anticipate.
>>>> UH
>>>>
>>>
>>The old Cambridge DOS program for the PC reads the voltage of the
> backup
>>
>>battery. The Cambridge Nav head also shows the backup voltage upon
>>power-up.
>>It pay to obsesrve this from time to time.
>>
>>Hartley Falbaum
>>USA
>>
>>
>>

[Paul Remde]

Hi Marc,

Good point. I really would need to have the unit in hand.

Paul Remde

"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
...
> Sam Discusflyer wrote:
>> So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected to
>> the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?
>
> Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and flight
> recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey my flight
> recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world records.
>
> The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the interior
> of the unit for tampering before resealing. Otherwise, there's not much
> point to sealing it in the first place...
>
> Marc
>

[Paul Remde]

Hi Steve,

Never mind. I guess it makes sense for me (or NK) to have the unit in hand
to make sure it hasn't been tampered with. That is the reason for the
existing process.

Paul Remde

"Paul Remde" > wrote in message
news:7Edtk.261163$TT4.65181@attbi_s22...
> Hi Steve,
>
> I understand your point and I agree with it. I do web conferencing all
> the time and connect to the customer's computer so I can see that they are
> doing and walk them through procedures. With their permission I can even
> control their PC. That method could probably be used to re-seal your
> GPS-NAV. I would be in control from my office and I would enter the
> re-seal codes told to me over the phone by NK. Give me a call if you want
> to give it a try. Since I'm in full control and you can't duplicate what
> I'm doing, I don't see any reason why there would be any security
> concerns.
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Sam Discusflyer" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Yes these are all good answers. And yes I let the battery get low. And
>> you
>> change the lithium battery while it's hooked up to external supply. But
>> no I don't use the GPS_NAV display so the voltage doesn't show all the
>> time. And it will be less cost if I ship through the post office. And no
>> offense to the vendors.
>>
>> In this age of computers and rising fuel costs and shipping costs plus
>> insurance, isn't it possible to make better use of technology and provide
>> for security sealing by computer communication? We transfer money
>> electronically don't we? A lot of people have done electronic payments
>> right? You can give control of your PC to someone over the internet and
>> they can run a software program on their computer to load a device hooked
>> up to your computer. And so me average joe doesn't have the key program
>> to cheat (like I really want to anyway). I know this communication is
>> possible because I've done it.
>>
>> So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected to
>> the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?
>>
>> You can still pay the $20 or $40 dollar cost to the proprieter with
>> paypal
>> or visa and both parties are happy.
>>
>> I guess I still have to support Brown Company anyway. Thanks for the
>> discussion.
>>
>> Steve Michalik
>>
>>
>> At 03:24 27 August 2008, HL Falbaum wrote:
>>>
>>>"Paul Remde" wrote in message
>>>news:vh3tk.315622$yE1.151194@attbi_s21...
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it is possible to change the backup battery without breaking the
>>>> seal. Just keep the unit powered with 12V power while replacing the
>>>backup
>>>> battery.
>>>>
>>>> The customer that started this thread had the backup battery get too
>> low
>>>
>>>> and die before it was replaced. The unit then had a security failure
>>>and
>>>> needs re-sealing.
>>>>
>>>> Paul Remde
>>>>
>>>> "Fred Blair" wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Can't you change the internal battery before it gets real low without
>>
>>>>> breaking the seal?
>>>>>
>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>
...
>>>>> On Aug 25, 10:54 pm, Sam Discusflyer
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and
>>>seal
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> without spending hundreds of dollars?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Inquiring minds want to know.
>>>>>> Steve Michalik
>>>>>
>>>>> Exact cost for 1 day turnaround by Gary at NK the week before last
>> was
>>>>> $130 including memory battery , calibration chart,and next day return
>>>>> delivery.
>>>>> My experience is that this is excellent service for a very fair
>> price.
>>>>> Certainly not the "hundreds of dollars" you seem to anticipate.
>>>>> UH
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>The old Cambridge DOS program for the PC reads the voltage of the
>> backup
>>>
>>>battery. The Cambridge Nav head also shows the backup voltage upon
>>>power-up.
>>>It pay to obsesrve this from time to time.
>>>
>>>Hartley Falbaum
>>>USA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

[John Scott[_2_]]

Calibration is also required to assure the flight didn't get into Class A
airspace without clearance. Maybe not a problem a lot of places but it can
be a real issue in the west.

John Scott

[Sam Discusflyer[_2_]]

What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.

I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in the
unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the scratch
marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some code
changes or board modifications? More likely someone would hook through
the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never know
they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand inspection'.
How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are connected to
the unit?

There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of modificationl Nor
as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?

Steve Michalik



At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:
>Hi Marc,
>
>Good point. I really would need to have the unit in hand.
>
>Paul Remde
>
>"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
...
>> Sam Discusflyer wrote:
>>> So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected
>to
>>> the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?
>>
>> Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and flight

>> recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey my
>flight
>> recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world records.
>>
>> The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
interior
>
>> of the unit for tampering before resealing. Otherwise, there's not
much
>
>> point to sealing it in the first place...
>>
>> Marc
>>
>
>
>

[Darryl Ramm]

On Aug 27, 4:39*pm, Sam Discusflyer > wrote:
> What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.
>
> *I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in the
> unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
> intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the scratch
> marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some code
> changes or board modifications? *More likely someone would hook through
> the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never know
> they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand inspection'.
> How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are connected to
> the unit?
>
> There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of modificationl Nor
> as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?
>
> Steve Michalik
>
> At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:
>
>
>
> >Hi Marc,
>
> >Good point. *I really would need to have the unit in hand.
>
> >Paul Remde
>
> >"Marc Ramsey" *wrote in message
> ...
> >> Sam Discusflyer wrote:
> >>> So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected
> >to
> >>> the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?
>
> >> Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and flight
> >> recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey my
> >flight
> >> recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world records.
>
> >> The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
> interior
>
> >> of the unit for tampering before resealing. *Otherwise, there's not
> much
>
> >> point to sealing it in the first place...
>
> >> Marc
>
>

Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
trusted agent.

We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.

You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc. don't
use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden variety,
low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
lobby to the IGC to have them changed.

Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

On Aug 27, 5:24*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Aug 27, 4:39*pm, Sam Discusflyer > wrote:
>
>
>
> > What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.
>
> > *I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in the
> > unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
> > intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the scratch
> > marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some code
> > changes or board modifications? *More likely someone would hook through
> > the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never know
> > they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand inspection'.
> > How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are connected to
> > the unit?
>
> > There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of modificationl Nor
> > as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?
>
> > Steve Michalik
>
> > At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:
>
> > >Hi Marc,
>
> > >Good point. *I really would need to have the unit in hand.
>
> > >Paul Remde
>
> > >"Marc Ramsey" *wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> Sam Discusflyer wrote:
> > >>> So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected
> > >to
> > >>> the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?
>
> > >> Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and flight
> > >> recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey my
> > >flight
> > >> recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world records.
>
> > >> The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
> > interior
>
> > >> of the unit for tampering before resealing. *Otherwise, there's not
> > much
>
> > >> point to sealing it in the first place...
>
> > >> Marc
>
> Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
> system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
> off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
> going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
> whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
> trusted agent.
>
> We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
> issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
> have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
> transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
> the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
> new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
> not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
> others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.
>
> You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
> resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
> stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc. don't
> use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden variety,
> low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
> you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
> will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
> for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
> lobby to the IGC to have them changed.
>
> Darryl

And yes I know technically the altitude record is a bad example.
(outside the specs of many loggers), here is a better one... I could
magically stay below 18,000' all day regardless of how high I flew. I
think Marc and I could go into business on some of these add on
options if you did not require sealed loggers.

Darryl

[Sam Discusflyer[_2_]]

I'm not unhappy at all. I like to fly for records even if they are modest
at best. But why not improve things for everyone and use technology to
make it easier. Your note backs up my point that the 'in hand
inspection' is more of a ceremonial task than prevention.

Ok I didn't mean to cause problems so I'll say thank you for the
comments.

Good Lift,
Steve

At 00:28 28 August 2008, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>On Aug 27, 5:24=A0pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>> On Aug 27, 4:39=A0pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.
>>
>> > =A0I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in
>th=
>e
>> > unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
>> > intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the
scratch
>> > marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some
code
>> > changes or board modifications? =A0More likely someone would hook
>throu=
>gh
>> > the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never
>kno=
>w
>> > they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand
inspection'.
>> > How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are
connected
>t=
>o
>> > the unit?
>>
>> > There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of
modificationl
>N=
>or
>> > as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?
>>
>> > Steve Michalik
>>
>> > At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:
>>
>> > >Hi Marc,
>>
>> > >Good point. =A0I really would need to have the unit in hand.
>>
>> > >Paul Remde
>>
>> > >"Marc Ramsey" =A0wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > >> Sam Discusflyer wrote:
>> > >>> So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC
>connect=
>ed
>> > >to
>> > >>> the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?
>>
>> > >> Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and
>fli=
>ght
>> > >> recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey
my
>> > >flight
>> > >> recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world
records.
>>
>> > >> The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
>> > interior
>>
>> > >> of the unit for tampering before resealing. =A0Otherwise,
there's
>no=
>t
>> > much
>>
>> > >> point to sealing it in the first place...
>>
>> > >> Marc
>>
>> Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
>> system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
>> off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
>> going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
>> whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
>> trusted agent.
>>
>> We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
>> issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
>> have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
>> transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
>> the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
>> new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
>> not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
>> others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.
>>
>> You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
>> resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
>> stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc.
don't
>> use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden
variety,
>> low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
>> you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
>> will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
>> for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
>> lobby to the IGC to have them changed.
>>
>> Darryl
>
>And yes I know technically the altitude record is a bad example.
>(outside the specs of many loggers), here is a better one... I could
>magically stay below 18,000' all day regardless of how high I flew. I
>think Marc and I could go into business on some of these add on
>options if you did not require sealed loggers.
>
>Darryl
>

[Sam Discusflyer[_2_]]

I'm not unhappy at all. I like to fly for records even if they are modest
at best. But why not improve things for everyone and use technology to
make it easier. Your note backs up my point that the 'in hand
inspection' is more of a ceremonial task than prevention.

Ok I didn't mean to cause problems so I'll say thank you for the
comments.

Good Lift,
Steve

At 00:28 28 August 2008, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>On Aug 27, 5:24=A0pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>> On Aug 27, 4:39=A0pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.
>>
>> > =A0I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in
>th=
>e
>> > unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
>> > intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the
scratch
>> > marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some
code
>> > changes or board modifications? =A0More likely someone would hook
>throu=
>gh
>> > the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never
>kno=
>w
>> > they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand
inspection'.
>> > How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are
connected
>t=
>o
>> > the unit?
>>
>> > There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of
modificationl
>N=
>or
>> > as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?
>>
>> > Steve Michalik
>>
>> > At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:
>>
>> > >Hi Marc,
>>
>> > >Good point. =A0I really would need to have the unit in hand.
>>
>> > >Paul Remde
>>
>> > >"Marc Ramsey" =A0wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > >> Sam Discusflyer wrote:
>> > >>> So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC
>connect=
>ed
>> > >to
>> > >>> the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?
>>
>> > >> Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and
>fli=
>ght
>> > >> recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey
my
>> > >flight
>> > >> recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world
records.
>>
>> > >> The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
>> > interior
>>
>> > >> of the unit for tampering before resealing. =A0Otherwise,
there's
>no=
>t
>> > much
>>
>> > >> point to sealing it in the first place...
>>
>> > >> Marc
>>
>> Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
>> system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
>> off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
>> going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
>> whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
>> trusted agent.
>>
>> We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
>> issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
>> have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
>> transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
>> the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
>> new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
>> not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
>> others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.
>>
>> You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
>> resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
>> stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc.
don't
>> use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden
variety,
>> low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
>> you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
>> will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
>> for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
>> lobby to the IGC to have them changed.
>>
>> Darryl
>
>And yes I know technically the altitude record is a bad example.
>(outside the specs of many loggers), here is a better one... I could
>magically stay below 18,000' all day regardless of how high I flew. I
>think Marc and I could go into business on some of these add on
>options if you did not require sealed loggers.
>
>Darryl
>

[Sam Discusflyer[_2_]]

I'm not unhappy at all. I like to fly for records even if they are modest
at best. But why not improve things for everyone and use technology to
make it easier. Your note backs up my point that the 'in hand
inspection' is more of a ceremonial task than prevention.

Ok I didn't mean to cause problems so I'll say thank you for the
comments.

Good Lift,
Steve

At 00:28 28 August 2008, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>On Aug 27, 5:24=A0pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>> On Aug 27, 4:39=A0pm, Sam Discusflyer wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.
>>
>> > =A0I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in
>th=
>e
>> > unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
>> > intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the
scratch
>> > marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some
code
>> > changes or board modifications? =A0More likely someone would hook
>throu=
>gh
>> > the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never
>kno=
>w
>> > they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand
inspection'.
>> > How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are
connected
>t=
>o
>> > the unit?
>>
>> > There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of
modificationl
>N=
>or
>> > as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?
>>
>> > Steve Michalik
>>
>> > At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:
>>
>> > >Hi Marc,
>>
>> > >Good point. =A0I really would need to have the unit in hand.
>>
>> > >Paul Remde
>>
>> > >"Marc Ramsey" =A0wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > >> Sam Discusflyer wrote:
>> > >>> So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC
>connect=
>ed
>> > >to
>> > >>> the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?
>>
>> > >> Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and
>fli=
>ght
>> > >> recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey
my
>> > >flight
>> > >> recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world
records.
>>
>> > >> The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
>> > interior
>>
>> > >> of the unit for tampering before resealing. =A0Otherwise,
there's
>no=
>t
>> > much
>>
>> > >> point to sealing it in the first place...
>>
>> > >> Marc
>>
>> Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
>> system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
>> off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
>> going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
>> whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
>> trusted agent.
>>
>> We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
>> issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
>> have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
>> transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
>> the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
>> new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
>> not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
>> others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.
>>
>> You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
>> resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
>> stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc.
don't
>> use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden
variety,
>> low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
>> you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
>> will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
>> for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
>> lobby to the IGC to have them changed.
>>
>> Darryl
>
>And yes I know technically the altitude record is a bad example.
>(outside the specs of many loggers), here is a better one... I could
>magically stay below 18,000' all day regardless of how high I flew. I
>think Marc and I could go into business on some of these add on
>options if you did not require sealed loggers.
>
>Darryl
>

[Darryl Ramm]

On Aug 27, 6:09*pm, Sam Discusflyer > wrote:
> I'm not unhappy at all. I like to fly for records even if they are modest
> at best. But why not improve things for everyone and use technology to
> make it easier. Your note backs up my point that the 'in hand
> inspection' is more of a ceremonial task than prevention.
>
> Ok I didn't mean to cause problems so I'll say thank you for the
> comments.
>
> Good Lift,
> Steve
>
> At 00:28 28 August 2008, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>
> >On Aug 27, 5:24=A0pm, Darryl Ramm *wrote:
> >> On Aug 27, 4:39=A0pm, Sam Discusflyer *wrote:
>
> >> > What kind of tampering are you looking for? I'm curious.
>
> >> > =A0I thought about the comment by another of hooking up something in
> >th=
> >e
> >> > unit. Most likely the person would use alligator clips or some other
> >> > intricate connector. Do you think you would be able to see the
> scratch
> >> > marks left by this connector? What else are you testing for? Some
> code
> >> > changes or board modifications? =A0More likely someone would hook
> >throu=
> >gh
> >> > the communication connection outside the unit. Then you would never
> >kno=
> >w
> >> > they were doing that would you when you did the 'in hand
> inspection'.
> >> > How about I take a picture and send it to you while you are
> connected
> >t=
> >o
> >> > the unit?
>
> >> > There is not much room inside the unit for this kind of
> modificationl
> >N=
> >or
> >> > as another put it would someone really invest the time and money?
>
> >> > Steve Michalik
>
> >> > At 14:37 27 August 2008, Paul Remde wrote:
>
> >> > >Hi Marc,
>
> >> > >Good point. =A0I really would need to have the unit in hand.
>
> >> > >Paul Remde
>
> >> > >"Marc Ramsey" =A0wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> > >> Sam Discusflyer wrote:
> >> > >>> So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC
> >connect=
> >ed
> >> > >to
> >> > >>> the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #?
>
> >> > >> Open up case, insert $2 microcontroller between GPS receiver and
> >fli=
> >ght
> >> > >> recorder logic board, close case, call up manufacturer say "hey
> my
> >> > >flight
> >> > >> recorder unsealed itself", reload key, go set some world
> records.
>
> >> > >> The manufacturer or designated agent is supposed to inspect the
> >> > interior
>
> >> > >> of the unit for tampering before resealing. =A0Otherwise,
> there's
> >no=
> >t
> >> > much
>
> >> > >> point to sealing it in the first place...
>
> >> > >> Marc
>
> >> Aligator clips? I could solder and unsolder components inside the
> >> system, replace or repogram EEPROMS on the boards, etc. All bets are
> >> off if I open the container and get to reseal it myself. Nobody is
> >> going to ever get to look at it anyhow if you could self seal. The
> >> whole point of the seal is you can't do it yourself, but must use a
> >> trusted agent.
>
> >> We would not have all been going through this hassle if it was not an
> >> issue. With nothing more than what an good electronics hobbiest would
> >> have I could open up any of these units and tap into the pressure
> >> transducer electrical interface and make it do anything I wanted. Take
> >> the altitude part of the GPS signal, fake that as well. Hey presto a
> >> new world altitude record. Now sealing and the current mechanisms are
> >> not absolutely bullet proof but they are a useful deterent. And as
> >> others mentioned there have been attempts to forge flights.
>
> >> You clearly are unhappy you have to pay some money to get this
> >> resealed. But you know what you don't. If you don't like all this
> >> stuff about having certified loggers and verifyable flights etc.
> don't
> >> use a certified logger or don't have it resealed. Many garden
> variety,
> >> low cost, GPS systems can log your flight and you can look at them all
> >> you want in SeeYou etc. Many PDA soaring programs and other systems
> >> will create logs suitable for use by OLC. But if you want to try out
> >> for badges or records, etc. then you have to follow the rules or go
> >> lobby to the IGC to have them changed.
>
> >> Darryl
>
> >And yes I know technically the altitude record is a bad example.
> >(outside the specs of many loggers), here is a better one... I could
> >magically stay below 18,000' all day regardless of how high I flew. I
> >think Marc and I could go into business on some of these add on
> >options if you did not require sealed loggers.
>
> >Darryl

We are all using technology to make things easier. You seem to be
arguing against that. If you enjoy record flying that is great. But to
support that you need a technology based logging system that has
traceable compliance. Letting people mess with the logger is therefore
a non-starter. I don't know what I could have possibly said that
implied that resealing loggers is mostly ceremony, serious hacking
like I mentioned would be detectable (altitude out of calibration,
modifications that would be visible etc. While you cannot absolutely
control what any service center will do I have pretty high
expectations of those vendors, especially of folks like Gary at MK.

[Eric Greenwell]

Sam Discusflyer wrote:
> I'm not unhappy at all. I like to fly for records even if they are modest
> at best. But why not improve things for everyone and use technology to
> make it easier.

I've done record flights with a barograph, and I've done them with a
secure logger, and my experience is the secure logger DOES make record
and badge flights much easier to fly and to document. It's also easier
for the official observer and the records keeper.

I've never had to reseal a logger (not even my old CAI model 20). The
barographs I used had to be recalibrated yearly, so I'm quite happy my
secure logger can go two years between calibrations. I've saved enough
to reseal several loggers just because of that, compared to the old
barographs.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:19:18 +0100, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

> Not quite right Martin.
>
> Calibration is required for observance of the 1% rule for distance
> flights.
>
Point noted: I'd assumed that the relative height difference would do and
that sensor drift would not affect height differentials.

FWIW my logger was out of calibration when I made my Gold distance claim
and that wasn't questioned. OTOH I started at 3500 and ended at 1600 on a
day when the GPS and pressure altitude difference was under 100 ft, so
there was no need for careful measurement to verify that I'd met the
height difference rules.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Richard[_1_]]

On Aug 27, 6:47*am, Richard > wrote:
> On Aug 26, 9:09*pm, Sam Discusflyer > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yes these are all good answers. And yes I let the battery get low. And you
> > change the lithium battery while it's hooked up to external supply. But
> > no I don't use the GPS_NAV display so the voltage doesn't show all the
> > time. And it will be less cost if I ship through the post office. And no
> > offense to the vendors.
>
> > In this age of computers and rising fuel costs and shipping costs plus
> > insurance, isn't it possible to make better use of technology and provide
> > for security sealing by computer communication? *We transfer money
> > electronically don't we? A lot of people have done electronic payments
> > right? *You can give control of your PC to someone over the internet and
> > they can run a software program on their computer to load a device hooked
> > up to your computer. And so me average joe doesn't have the key program
> > to cheat (like I really want to anyway). I know this communication is
> > possible because I've done it. *
>
> > So why is it not possible to hook up the GPS unit to the PC connected to
> > the internet, connect with the key master and load the serial #? *
>
> > You can still pay the $20 or $40 dollar cost to the proprieter with paypal
> > or visa and both parties are happy.
>
> > I guess I still have to support Brown Company anyway. Thanks for the
> > discussion.
>
> > Steve Michalik
>
> > At 03:24 27 August 2008, HL Falbaum wrote:
>
> > >"Paul Remde" *wrote in message
> > >news:vh3tk.315622$yE1.151194@attbi_s21...
> > >> Hi,
>
> > >> Yes, it is possible to change the backup battery without breaking the
> > >> seal. Just keep the unit powered with 12V power while replacing the
> > >backup
> > >> battery.
>
> > >> The customer that started this thread had the backup battery get too
> > low
>
> > >> and die before it was replaced. *The unit then had a security failure
> > >and
> > >> needs re-sealing.
>
> > >> Paul Remde
>
> > >> "Fred Blair" *wrote in message
> > ...
> > >>> Can't you change the internal battery before it gets real low without
> > >>> breaking the seal?
>
> > >>> *wrote in message
>
> > ....
> > >>> On Aug 25, 10:54 pm, Sam Discusflyer
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>> Is there a way to input a security code in a Cambridge GPS_NAV and
> > >seal
> > >>>> it
> > >>>> without spending hundreds of dollars?
>
> > >>>> Inquiring minds want to know.
> > >>>> Steve Michalik
>
> > >>> Exact cost for 1 day turnaround by Gary at NK the week before last
> > was
> > >>> $130 including memory battery , calibration chart,and next day return
> > >>> delivery.
> > >>> My experience is that this is excellent service for a very fair
> > price.
> > >>> Certainly not the "hundreds of dollars" you seem to anticipate.
> > >>> UH
>
> > >The old Cambridge DOS program for the PC * reads the voltage of the
> > backup
>
> > >battery. The Cambridge Nav head also shows the backup voltage upon
> > >power-up.
> > >It pay to obsesrve this from time to time.
>
> > >Hartley Falbaum
> > >USA- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Sam,
>
> I provide calibration for $60 + $40 to reset seal = $100 + shipping.
> My Standard turn is 1 day. *If I receive today I will ship back
> tomorrow. *I find that many customers appreciate this service as they
> can save $ on shipping by using US Priotiy Mail or FEDEX Saver.
>
> I would replace the battery every year. *They are inexpensive.
> Powering the recorder while replacing the battery does not break the
> electronic security seal. *Take the top cover GPS Antenna off while
> the recorder is powered and replace the battery. *Use a CR2330
> battery, this is 5mm thicker than the recommended battery BR or CR
> 2325, and insures good contact.
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/calibration.htm
>
> Thanks
>
> Richardwww.craggyaero.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sorry forgot the decimal point on the 5mm, it is really .5 mm
thicker.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Tony Verhulst]

ContestID67 wrote:
> ..The recalibration process is to put the recorder into a
> barometric (hyperbaric) chamber.....


Surely you meant hypobaric.

Tony V.