Emfo vs. Jaxida covers

[nimbus]

"Does anyone have any experience with EMFO covers for sailplanes. I
would be interested in how they compare with the ones made by Jaxida.
"

This question was already asked in 2005....and no real answer was
given to the initial author (James d'Andrea).

I recently have received from Emfo company a small piece of their
cover they are proposing. The external plastic sheet seems to be far
more robust than the one proposed by Jaxida. I intend to buy a Emfo
covers set when the current Jaxida ones I have will be completely
"eaten" by UV.

Has someone a pragmatic experience with the Emfo covers? What is the
expected life time of the Emfo covers? How robust is the Emfo covers
against UV and humidity (belgian weather)

Cheers,
Bruno

[sierra]

On Sep 5, 12:05*pm, nimbus > wrote:
> "Does anyone have any experience with EMFO covers for sailplanes. *I
> would be interested in how they compare with the ones made by Jaxida.
> "
>
> This question was already asked in 2005....and no real answer was
> given to the initial author (James d'Andrea).
>
> I recently have received from Emfo company a small piece of their
> cover they are proposing. The external plastic sheet seems to be far
> more robust than the one proposed by Jaxida. I intend to buy a Emfo
> covers set when the current Jaxida ones I have will be completely
> "eaten" by UV.
>
> Has someone a pragmatic experience with the Emfo covers? What is the
> expected life time of the Emfo covers? How robust is the Emfo covers
> against UV and humidity (belgian weather)
>
> Cheers,
> Bruno

Bruno
I have use EMFO for 3 summer. They fit very well , very well made.and
do not show any sign of wear.
They must be aired if you have heavy dew in the morning. They tend to
accumulate mildew inside otherwise.
The elastic band to attach them could be better but it is a minor
item. Good buy for the price.
Gilles

[JS]

The EMFO covers are a little heavier, which means they require more
storage space and are a bit of a handful when you're rolling them up.
But this seems to mean good durability too.
My Nimbus 3/25.5 set was their first for that span of N3. The wing
tip panel covers weren't cut right, but they were replaced as soon as
I provided the dimensions that EMFO needed. Great customer support.
The covers have not seen lots of use, and still look quite new.
Jim

[Rowan Griffin]

I bought a set of Emfo covers for my Std. Cirrus 3 1/2 years ago in
preference to Jaxida following discussions with owners of both.
I left my glider rigged for most of the season the first year with the
covers on and have used them fairly regularily since, with the canopy
cover supplied as part of the set used pretty much all the time- they show
no visible signs of UV aging or other signs of wear. I ordered mine at a
busy time and was quoted 6 weeks lead time to have them made and they were
ready to be shipped in 5.
Definately no regrets...

Rowan

At 19:35 05 September 2008, JS wrote:
> The EMFO covers are a little heavier, which means they require more
>storage space and are a bit of a handful when you're rolling them up.
>But this seems to mean good durability too.
> My Nimbus 3/25.5 set was their first for that span of N3. The wing
>tip panel covers weren't cut right, but they were replaced as soon as
>I provided the dimensions that EMFO needed. Great customer support.
> The covers have not seen lots of use, and still look quite new.
>Jim
>

[Cats]

On Sep 5, 5:05*pm, nimbus > wrote:
> "Does anyone have any experience with EMFO covers for sailplanes. *I
> would be interested in how they compare with the ones made by Jaxida.
> "
>
> This question was already asked in 2005....and no real answer was
> given to the initial author (James d'Andrea).
>
> I recently have received from Emfo company a small piece of their
> cover they are proposing. The external plastic sheet seems to be far
> more robust than the one proposed by Jaxida. I intend to buy a Emfo
> covers set when the current Jaxida ones I have will be completely
> "eaten" by UV.
>
> Has someone a pragmatic experience with the Emfo covers? What is the
> expected life time of the Emfo covers? How robust is the Emfo covers
> against UV and humidity (belgian weather)


I'm not sure if they ship to your country, but Vertigo Covers have
been branching out into glider covers of late, and they seem to be
excellent quality and good for several years - I guess Belgian weather
is pretty similar to UK weather. They are certainly more robust than
Jaxida covers, I haven't handled other makes.

[John Galloway[_1_]]

Having owned 3 sets of Jaxidas and looked at (and seriously considered)
Emfos over the years I would definitely be getting Vertigo covers next
time. The tailoring is a bit simpler than Jaxidas but the coverage is
good and the new material seems excellent. It is not a coated material
but seems to be extremely water resistant. You can easily blow water
beads off the covers by mouth - they just run away. I have been feeling
inside the wing covers of a couple of gliders parked out all wet summer in
them and the interior is dry - unlike my Jaxidas.

I have no connection to or interest in the company.

http://www.vertigocovers.co.uk/Vertigo_Covers/Gliders_Covers.html

John Galloway

At 12:03 06 September 2008, Cats wrote:
>On Sep 5, 5:05=A0pm, nimbus wrote:
>> "Does anyone have any experience with EMFO covers for sailplanes.
=A0I
>> would be interested in how they compare with the ones made by Jaxida.
>> "
>>
>> This question was already asked in 2005....and no real answer was
>> given to the initial author (James d'Andrea).
>>
>> I recently have received from Emfo company a small piece of their
>> cover they are proposing. The external plastic sheet seems to be far
>> more robust than the one proposed by Jaxida. I intend to buy a Emfo
>> covers set when the current Jaxida ones I have will be completely
>> "eaten" by UV.
>>
>> Has someone a pragmatic experience with the Emfo covers? What is the
>> expected life time of the Emfo covers? How robust is the Emfo covers
>> against UV and humidity (belgian weather)
>
>
>I'm not sure if they ship to your country, but Vertigo Covers have
>been branching out into glider covers of late, and they seem to be
>excellent quality and good for several years - I guess Belgian weather
>is pretty similar to UK weather. They are certainly more robust than
>Jaxida covers, I haven't handled other makes.
>

[Cats]

On Sep 6, 7:23*pm, John Galloway > wrote:
<snip>
>*You can easily blow water
> beads off the covers by mouth - they just run away. *I have been feeling
> inside the wing covers of a couple of gliders parked out all wet summer in
> them and the interior is dry - unlike my Jaxidas.

And they are new this season - are your Jaxidas?. The acid test will
be in 2-3 years. One problem with mine that seems to be resolving
itself was leakage through the seam along the top of the canopy
cover. BTW was advised to use baby wipes to clean off bird p**!

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 19:12 06 September 2008, Cats wrote:
>On Sep 6, 7:23=A0pm, John Galloway wrote:
>
>>=A0You can easily blow water
>> beads off the covers by mouth - they just run away. =A0I have been
>feelin=
>g
>> inside the wing covers of a couple of gliders parked out all wet
summer
>i=
>n
>> them and the interior is dry - unlike my Jaxidas.
>
>And they are new this season - are your Jaxidas?. The acid test will
>be in 2-3 years. One problem with mine that seems to be resolving
>itself was leakage through the seam along the top of the canopy
>cover. BTW was advised to use baby wipes to clean off bird p**!

My Jaxidas are 2 years old but they are made with their newer outer
material which has not deteriorated and seems to be waterproof. What
seems to happen is that in very wet conditions the separate inner
corrugated material absorbs water. My speculation is that it is the
unintended consequence of having a flapping/flexible structure raised
slightly off the wing that allows (sometimes very humid) air to circulate
over the glider surfaces - especially when there are windy conditions. I
think that it is better to have a waterproof but breathable and fairly
heavy and inflexible material lying directly on the wing to minimize
under-the-cover air movement but allow water vapour to escape when the
rain stops.

John Galloway

[James D'Andrea]

On Sep 7, 11:23*am, John Galloway > wrote:
> At 19:12 06 September 2008, Cats wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Sep 6, 7:23=A0pm, John Galloway *wrote:
>
> >>=A0You can easily blow water
> >> beads off the covers by mouth - they just run away. =A0I have been
> >feelin=
> >g
> >> inside the wing covers of a couple of gliders parked out all wet
> summer
> >i=
> >n
> >> them and the interior is dry - unlike my Jaxidas.
>
> >And they are new this season - are your Jaxidas?. *The acid test will
> >be in 2-3 years. *One problem with mine that seems to be resolving
> >itself was leakage through the seam along the top of the canopy
> >cover. *BTW was advised to use baby wipes to clean off bird p**!
>
> My Jaxidas are 2 years old but they are made with their newer outer
> material which has not deteriorated and seems to be waterproof. *What
> seems to happen is that in very wet conditions the separate inner
> corrugated material absorbs water. *My speculation is that it is the
> unintended consequence of having a flapping/flexible structure raised
> slightly off the wing that allows (sometimes very humid) air to circulate
> over the glider surfaces - especially when there are windy conditions. *I
> think that it is better to have a waterproof but breathable and fairly
> heavy and inflexible material lying directly on the wing to minimize
> under-the-cover air movement but allow water vapour to escape when the
> rain stops.
>
> John Galloway- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I bought a set of EMFO covers for my LS-3-17 and would never consider
buying them again in the future. The cover for the tailplane did not
fit and was obviously made for another glider, and the fuselage cover
fit too snugly to hold the velco attachments on the wing covers. I
notified EMFO of the problems, and they requested that I send them
photos before they would replace them. I sent the photos to both EMFO
and Tom Knauff, the US distributor of EMFO at the time. Despite
multiple emails sent by both me and Tom Knauff, we never received a
reply from EMFO during the next 2 years. During that time, I
continued to use the cover pieces that did fit to partially protect my
glider from the elements. My experience was that EMFOs did not stand
up to the extreme UV conditions and heat of Truckee, CA where my
glider was based (5,900 ft and 90+ deg F). The covers turned brown in
color, shrank, and deteriorated in the sunlight. I sent the covers
back to Knauff who sent them to EMFO as the covers are advertised to
come with a 3 year warranty. When EMFO received the covers, they
quickly responded this time, and accused me of violating the warranty
by washing the covers with a chemical or detergent when in fact I did
not. Evidently, EMFO thought the smell of the detiorated fabric was a
chemical, or was from chemical exposure. In the end and after several
more emails to EMFO, I never got a set of replacements that ever fit
my glider. in my case, EMFO ignored my product complaints about
poorly fitting covers, and blamed me for their covers not standing up
to their durability claims to avoid honoring their warranty. Although
I never got a satisfactory resolution to the problem, Tom Knauff
provided me with excellent customer service in trying to get EMFO to
get me a set of covers that fit during that two year period. My
understanding is that he no longer distributes EMFO nor Jaxida covers,
in part, due to the problems he has had with these companies
supporting their products.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 7, 12:19*pm, "James D'Andrea" > wrote:
> On Sep 7, 11:23*am, John Galloway > wrote:
>
>
>
> > At 19:12 06 September 2008, Cats wrote:
>
> > >On Sep 6, 7:23=A0pm, John Galloway *wrote:
>
> > >>=A0You can easily blow water
> > >> beads off the covers by mouth - they just run away. =A0I have been
> > >feelin=
> > >g
> > >> inside the wing covers of a couple of gliders parked out all wet
> > summer
> > >i=
> > >n
> > >> them and the interior is dry - unlike my Jaxidas.
>
> > >And they are new this season - are your Jaxidas?. *The acid test will
> > >be in 2-3 years. *One problem with mine that seems to be resolving
> > >itself was leakage through the seam along the top of the canopy
> > >cover. *BTW was advised to use baby wipes to clean off bird p**!
>
> > My Jaxidas are 2 years old but they are made with their newer outer
> > material which has not deteriorated and seems to be waterproof. *What
> > seems to happen is that in very wet conditions the separate inner
> > corrugated material absorbs water. *My speculation is that it is the
> > unintended consequence of having a flapping/flexible structure raised
> > slightly off the wing that allows (sometimes very humid) air to circulate
> > over the glider surfaces - especially when there are windy conditions. *I
> > think that it is better to have a waterproof but breathable and fairly
> > heavy and inflexible material lying directly on the wing to minimize
> > under-the-cover air movement but allow water vapour to escape when the
> > rain stops.
>
> > John Galloway- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I bought a set of EMFO covers for my LS-3-17 and would never consider
> buying them again in the future. *The cover for the tailplane did not
> fit and was obviously made for another glider, and the fuselage cover
> fit too snugly to hold the velco attachments on the wing covers. *I
> notified EMFO of the problems, and they requested that I send them
> photos before they would replace them. *I sent the photos to both EMFO
> and Tom Knauff, the US distributor of EMFO at the time. *Despite
> multiple emails sent by both me and Tom Knauff, we never received a
> reply from EMFO during the next 2 years. *During that time, I
> continued to use the cover pieces that did fit to partially protect my
> glider from the elements. *My experience was that EMFOs did not stand
> up to the extreme UV conditions and heat of Truckee, CA where my
> glider was based (5,900 ft and 90+ deg F). *The covers turned brown in
> color, shrank, and deteriorated in the sunlight. *I sent the covers
> back to Knauff who sent them to EMFO as the covers are advertised to
> come with a 3 year warranty. *When EMFO received the covers, they
> quickly responded this time, and accused me of violating the warranty
> by washing the covers with a chemical or detergent when in fact I did
> not. *Evidently, EMFO thought the smell of the detiorated fabric was a
> chemical, or was from chemical exposure. *In the end and after several
> more emails to EMFO, I never got a set of replacements that ever fit
> my glider. *in my case, EMFO ignored my product complaints about
> poorly fitting covers, and blamed me for their covers not standing up
> to their durability claims to avoid honoring their warranty. *Although
> I never got a satisfactory resolution to the problem, Tom Knauff
> provided me with excellent customer service in trying to get EMFO to
> get me a set of covers that fit during that two year period. *My
> understanding is that he no longer distributes EMFO nor Jaxida covers,
> in part, due to the problems he has had with these companies
> supporting their products.

A club I used to belong to had some wing covers replaced by Jaxida
under warranty that has deteriorated in the Sun (western USA again).
These were before the new "waxy exterior layer" style fabric that
Jaxida is now using - and might have been a bad batch of previous
style fabric. I've also dealt with Jaxida on getting a kit/
instructions to modify covers existing covers for transparent solar
panel covers, and dealt with Jaxida when there had been a mistake
delivering cover part with a new sailplane I purchased. All in all,
considering language and location issues I've found Jaxida OK to do
business with. For some things I've worked through Williams Soaring to
get info/help from Jaxida (esp. anything requiring payment etc. since
Jaxida like many small European businesses won't accept credit cards).
YMMV. And Bruno is in Europe so dealing with Jaxida should be easier.

Bruno - if this is for your ASH-26E, the long style Jaxida Fueslage
covers (with or without clear solar panel covers) will help keep rain
out of the engine bay opening. Possible humidity build up in the
engine bay if stored for long term under covers is one reasons I would
prefer to keep the 26E in a proper ventilated trailer.

Darryl

[nimbus]

I have now Jaxida covers for my ASH26E. No problem of humidity inside
the engine bay because the doors are closely closed. I even think that
without covers, no humidity would enter the engine bay.

The problem is to protect the gelcoat against UV thanks to a cover.
The new plastic layer from Jaxida is more fragile than the one I had
some years ago. Now, only after 2 years, the plastic is becoming
brittle. It seems to be at an end of life. Basically, the current
Jaxida covers seems to have a lifetime of about 2 years while in the
past, it was about 5 years.Considering the high price of Jaxida
covers, I am not very happy to detect that my Jaxida covers are death
only after 2 years. In addition, I did not wash them just for sparing
them against potential aggressive soap.

I received recently a sample from Emfo which seems to provide a more
robust external plastic layer. In fact, Emfo provides some kind of
tissue impregnated with a polymer. This external layer seems to be
more resistant (mechanically). This would be my current best choice
but the post from James D'Andrea worries me a little bit.

I sent an email to the British company announced in a previous post.
Still no answer.

There is also another manufacturer in France named : Aerobache. See:
http://www.aerobache.com/product_info.php?cPath=7&products_id=178
In addition, they seems to have their product immediately for an
ASH26E. But they seems also to be quite expensive. I asked them for a
sample but did not reply.

Important aspects are the conditions of use:

In Belgium, I am using covers from March till end of September. Medium
average temperature is about 20°C, we could have hot day with burning
sun but most of the time we receive a lot of rain and associated humid
weather from the UK. (NW winds).

During winter, if samples are available I will try to be more
professional by testing in an appropriate way (IEEE or MIL standards)
the samples (UV resistance, humidity resistance etc)

Cheers,
Bruno

[nimbus]

I have now Jaxida covers for my ASH26E. No problem of humidity inside
the engine bay because the doors are closely closed. I even think that
without covers, no humidity would enter the engine bay.

The problem is to protect the gelcoat against UV thanks to a cover.
The new plastic layer from Jaxida is more fragile than the one I had
some years ago. Now, only after 2 years, the plastic is becoming
brittle. It seems to be at an end of life. Basically, the current
Jaxida covers seems to have a lifetime of about 2 years while in the
past, it was about 5 years.Considering the high price of Jaxida
covers, I am not very happy to detect that my Jaxida covers are death
only after 2 years. In addition, I did not wash them just for sparing
them against potential aggressive soap.

I received recently a sample from Emfo which seems to provide a more
robust external plastic layer. In fact, Emfo provides some kind of
tissue impregnated with a polymer. This external layer seems to be
more resistant (mechanically). This would be my current best choice
but the post from James D'Andrea worries me a little bit.

I sent an email to the British company announced in a previous post.
Still no answer.

There is also another manufacturer in France named : Aerobache. See:
http://www.aerobache.com/product_info.php?cPath=7&products_id=178
In addition, they seems to have their product immediately for an
ASH26E. But they seems also to be quite expensive. I asked them for a
sample but did not reply.

Important aspects are the conditions of use:

In Belgium, I am using covers from March till end of September. Medium
average temperature is about 20°C, we could have hot day with burning
sun but most of the time we receive a lot of rain and associated humid
weather from the UK. (NW winds).

During winter, if samples are available I will try to be more
professional by testing in an appropriate way (IEEE or MIL standards)
the samples (UV resistance, humidity resistance etc)

Cheers,
Bruno

[cernauta]

On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 08:25:10 -0700 (PDT), nimbus
> wrote:

....
> Now, only after 2 years, the plastic is becoming
>brittle. It seems to be at an end of life.

My 6 or 7 years old Jaxida set had lost all weatherproofing. The
coating progressively turned into a white powder that was filling my
clothes during the cover/uncover process.

I have sprayed the whole (cleaned) set with two thin coats of a
plastic paint called "Plastivel". The result is a different looking,
slightly more rigid and crisp glider cover.
No water passes through the fabric now, even under heavy rain. I still
can easily store the set in its bags, though the sound is definetely
different.
The seller claims that the treatment will last for more than 3 years.
It is in commont use on camp tents and for sealing toxic-painted
aquarium decorations from the vital environment.
My 18m single seater required 8 cans of spray paint for a total cost
of about 60 Euros.

Plastivel:
http://www.bricoliamo.com/17/37/546/
http://www.costruire.com/a+r/prod_sx.asp?c=9&s=120&w=1332&n=153


The following product might be a good alternative, though it's based
on rubber instead of plastic.
http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip

Any other suggestions?

Aldo Cernezzi

[Eric Greenwell]

cernauta wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 08:25:10 -0700 (PDT), nimbus
> > wrote:
>
> ...
>> Now, only after 2 years, the plastic is becoming
>> brittle. It seems to be at an end of life.
>
> My 6 or 7 years old Jaxida set had lost all weatherproofing. The
> coating progressively turned into a white powder that was filling my
> clothes during the cover/uncover process.
>
> I have sprayed the whole (cleaned) set with two thin coats of a
> plastic paint called "Plastivel". The result is a different looking,
> slightly more rigid and crisp glider cover.
> No water passes through the fabric now, even under heavy rain. I still
> can easily store the set in its bags, though the sound is definetely
> different.

A DG 800 pilot in my area added a layer of 1460 Tyvek (a form of Tyvek
sold for the purpose of covering and protecting things that are outside)
to the top side of his Jaxida covers, which had lost their top coating.
He said it was cheap and easy to do, and the last I heard from him, the
Tyvek was still in good condition after 2 years of leaving the glider
tied down April through September. Here is where he got the material:

www.materialconcepts.com

My wife made me a set of lightweight covers for use during soaring camps
and contests. She tells me it was easy to handle and to sew.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 8, 8:25*am, nimbus > wrote:
> I have now Jaxida covers for my ASH26E. No problem of humidity inside
> the engine bay because the doors are closely closed. I even think that
> without covers, no humidity would enter the engine bay.
[snip]

Without covers I would suspect rain moves inside, through capillary
action around the outer door seals and through the central opening. Of
course measurements could make me think otherwise. With covers I would
hope the primary moisture stays out but still would worry about this
if the glider is in a high rain/moisture environment. As you know
moisture and corrosion can be a concern if the engine is not operated
frequently.

Darryl