FOR SALE NEW NK CLEAR NAV

[[email protected]]

We have one remaing "First Flight " early release CLEARNAV system for
sale. Unit is ready to ship .
contact :

[AK]

On Sep 6, 7:35*am, wrote:
> We have one remaing "First Flight " early release CLEARNAV system *for
> sale. Unit is ready to ship .
> contact :

I would be first to buy if the instrument supported Borgelt varios.

[Richard[_1_]]

On Sep 7, 4:46*am, AK > wrote:
> On Sep 6, 7:35*am, wrote:
>
> > We have one remaing "First Flight " early release CLEARNAV system *for
> > sale. Unit is ready to ship .
> > contact :
>
> I would be first to buy if the instrument supported Borgelt varios.

Al,

The Craggy Aero Ultimate supports Borgelt Varios, B50, B500, CAI 302,
LX1600, or any NMEA GPS. Software WinPilot PRO or ADV.

Larger Screen , 4 times the resolution VGA, more processing power,
brighter adjustable display.

http://www.craggyaero.com/ultimate.htm

Shipping in October 2008.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Andy[_1_]]

On Sep 7, 6:47*am, Richard > wrote:
> The Craggy Aero Ultimate supports Borgelt Varios, B50, B500, *CAI 302,
> LX1600, *or any NMEA GPS. *Software WinPilot PRO or ADV.
>
> Larger Screen , 4 times the resolution VGA, more processing power,
> brighter adjustable display.
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/ultimate.htm
>
> Shipping in October 2008.

The fact that it is intended to support see you mobile is a major plus
as far as I'm concerned. The SeeYou team has a good history of
supporting their software and for being open to user suggestions.
Will that also be available in October? Will users be able to load
software updates obtained directly from the See You web site?

Andy

[Richard[_1_]]

On Sep 10, 4:46*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Sep 7, 6:47*am, Richard > wrote:
>
> > The Craggy Aero Ultimate supports Borgelt Varios, B50, B500, *CAI 302,
> > LX1600, *or any NMEA GPS. *Software WinPilot PRO or ADV.
>
> > Larger Screen , 4 times the resolution VGA, more processing power,
> > brighter adjustable display.
>
> >http://www.craggyaero.com/ultimate.htm
>
> > Shipping in October 2008.
>
> The fact that it is intended to support see you mobile is a major plus
> as far as I'm concerned. *The SeeYou team has a good history of
> supporting their software and for being open to user suggestions.
> Will that also be available in October? Will users be able to load
> software updates obtained directly from the See You web site?
>
> Andy

Naviter has said they will support the Ultimate Platform, but have not
give a date. It will be a new software package specific to the
Ulitimate operating system. Current users probalby will not be able
to transfer their license. I believe users will be able to update
from the SeeYou site or my web site.

Thanks for your interest.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Bill Daniels]

So, Richard, what operating system does it use? I'm presuming is isn't
"Windows Vista Ultimate" due to the hardware requirements for Vista. Google
doesn't turn up any other "Ultimate Operating System".

FWIW, Winpilot at one time (and maybe still) delivered a fully functional
Win32 version along with the PDA version. GPS_LOG Win CE does this too.
All you need to run the Win32 versions is a computer with an X86 compatible
processor running some version of the Windows OS.

I often run GPS_LOG in one window on my desktop and SeeYou or Condor in
another. I use a loopback serial cable to transfer NMEA data from SeeYor or
Condor from Com1 to Com2 where GPS_LOG picks it up and displays it. It's a
great way to learn PDA software.

Bill D


"Richard" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 10, 4:46 pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Sep 7, 6:47 am, Richard > wrote:
>
> > The Craggy Aero Ultimate supports Borgelt Varios, B50, B500, CAI 302,
> > LX1600, or any NMEA GPS. Software WinPilot PRO or ADV.
>
> > Larger Screen , 4 times the resolution VGA, more processing power,
> > brighter adjustable display.
>
> >http://www.craggyaero.com/ultimate.htm
>
> > Shipping in October 2008.
>
> The fact that it is intended to support see you mobile is a major plus
> as far as I'm concerned. The SeeYou team has a good history of
> supporting their software and for being open to user suggestions.
> Will that also be available in October? Will users be able to load
> software updates obtained directly from the See You web site?
>
> Andy

Naviter has said they will support the Ultimate Platform, but have not
give a date. It will be a new software package specific to the
Ulitimate operating system. Current users probalby will not be able
to transfer their license. I believe users will be able to update
from the SeeYou site or my web site.

Thanks for your interest.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[brianDG303]

I tried to buy a clearnav but missed it. I'm not sure it was the right
choice, as both it and the UP will require blocking other instruments
as they are really too big for most glider panels. I was hoping to rig
up some sort of flip-away mount, but recently I've come to suspect
that other options will become available in the near future.

[Darryl Ramm]

Several of these devices you see coming out run Windows CE, from which
Windows Mobile is based. There is a fairly large market for Windows CE
based controllers/display nits for point of sale and similar
applications from which the ClearNav and presumably this one are
based. And leveraging existing technology is a good thing. Porting
Windows Mobile based applications like WinPilot and SeeYou Mobile to
these devices should be relatively easy.


Darryl

On Sep 10, 7:44*pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> So, Richard, what operating system does it use? *I'm presuming is isn't
> "Windows Vista Ultimate" due to the hardware requirements for Vista. *Google
> doesn't turn up any other "Ultimate Operating System".
>
> FWIW, Winpilot at one time (and maybe still) delivered a fully functional
> Win32 version along with the PDA version. *GPS_LOG Win CE does this too..
> All you need to run the Win32 versions is a computer with an X86 compatible
> processor running some version of the Windows OS.
>
> I often run GPS_LOG in one window on my desktop and SeeYou or Condor in
> another. *I use a loopback serial cable to transfer NMEA data from SeeYor or
> Condor from Com1 to Com2 where GPS_LOG picks it up and displays it. *It's a
> great way to learn PDA software.
>
> Bill D
>
> "Richard" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Sep 10, 4:46 pm, Andy > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 7, 6:47 am, Richard > wrote:
>
> > > The Craggy Aero Ultimate supports Borgelt Varios, B50, B500, CAI 302,
> > > LX1600, or any NMEA GPS. Software WinPilot PRO or ADV.
>
> > > Larger Screen , 4 times the resolution VGA, more processing power,
> > > brighter adjustable display.
>
> > >http://www.craggyaero.com/ultimate.htm
>
> > > Shipping in October 2008.
>
> > The fact that it is intended to support see you mobile is a major plus
> > as far as I'm concerned. The SeeYou team has a good history of
> > supporting their software and for being open to user suggestions.
> > Will that also be available in October? Will users be able to load
> > software updates obtained directly from the See You web site?
>
> > Andy
>
> Naviter has said they will support the Ultimate Platform, but have not
> give a date. * It will be a new software package specific to the
> Ulitimate operating system. * Current users probalby will not be able
> to transfer their license. *I believe users will be able to update
> from the SeeYou site or my web site.
>
> Thanks for your interest.
>
> Richardwww.craggyaero.com

[brianDG303]

Yes Darryl, that is exactly what I am thinking. The PDA's shortcoming
(small dim screens) which derive from the concept of something that
fits in your pocket and runs on batteries is being replaced by ever
more powerful auto GPS devices with larger and brighter screens
running Windows CE. Andrej Kolar has indicated that at some point
SeeYou Mobile will run on some or all of these, but not when. There
will be positives and negatives to this. A positive will be low cost;
one nice example costs $200 with built-in GPS. However, getting an
approved IGC file out of it will probably never happen. The clearnav
and UP seem like really nice gear for those who have the money and the
panel space, but perhaps other options will become available.


On Sep 10, 7:57*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> Several of these devices you see coming out run Windows CE, from which
> Windows Mobile is based. There is a fairly large market for Windows CE
> based controllers/display nits for point of sale and similar
> applications from which the ClearNav and presumably this one are
> based. And leveraging existing technology is a good thing. Porting
> Windows Mobile based applications like WinPilot and SeeYou Mobile to
> these devices should be relatively easy.
>
> Darryl

[Richard[_1_]]

On Sep 10, 7:57*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> Several of these devices you see coming out run Windows CE, from which
> Windows Mobile is based. There is a fairly large market for Windows CE
> based controllers/display nits for point of sale and similar
> applications from which the ClearNav and presumably this one are
> based. And leveraging existing technology is a good thing. Porting
> Windows Mobile based applications like WinPilot and SeeYou Mobile to
> these devices should be relatively easy.
>
> Darryl
>
> On Sep 10, 7:44*pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > So, Richard, what operating system does it use? *I'm presuming is isn't
> > "Windows Vista Ultimate" due to the hardware requirements for Vista. *Google
> > doesn't turn up any other "Ultimate Operating System".
>
> > FWIW, Winpilot at one time (and maybe still) delivered a fully functional
> > Win32 version along with the PDA version. *GPS_LOG Win CE does this too.
> > All you need to run the Win32 versions is a computer with an X86 compatible
> > processor running some version of the Windows OS.
>
> > I often run GPS_LOG in one window on my desktop and SeeYou or Condor in
> > another. *I use a loopback serial cable to transfer NMEA data from SeeYor or
> > Condor from Com1 to Com2 where GPS_LOG picks it up and displays it. *It's a
> > great way to learn PDA software.
>
> > Bill D
>
> > "Richard" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > On Sep 10, 4:46 pm, Andy > wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 7, 6:47 am, Richard > wrote:
>
> > > > The Craggy Aero Ultimate supports Borgelt Varios, B50, B500, CAI 302,
> > > > LX1600, or any NMEA GPS. Software WinPilot PRO or ADV.
>
> > > > Larger Screen , 4 times the resolution VGA, more processing power,
> > > > brighter adjustable display.
>
> > > >http://www.craggyaero.com/ultimate.htm
>
> > > > Shipping in October 2008.
>
> > > The fact that it is intended to support see you mobile is a major plus
> > > as far as I'm concerned. The SeeYou team has a good history of
> > > supporting their software and for being open to user suggestions.
> > > Will that also be available in October? Will users be able to load
> > > software updates obtained directly from the See You web site?
>
> > > Andy
>
> > Naviter has said they will support the Ultimate Platform, but have not
> > give a date. * It will be a new software package specific to the
> > Ulitimate operating system. * Current users probalby will not be able
> > to transfer their license. *I believe users will be able to update
> > from the SeeYou site or my web site.
>
> > Thanks for your interest.
>
> > Richardwww.craggyaero.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Daryll,

The Craggy Ultimate uses a windows CE operating system.
Unfortunately Porting
Windows Mobile based applications like WinPilot and SeeYou Mobile to
these devices is not relatively easy. I have this feedback from both
WinPilot and Naviter.


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 11, 11:46*am, Richard > wrote:
> On Sep 10, 7:57*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Several of these devices you see coming out run Windows CE, from which
> > Windows Mobile is based. There is a fairly large market for Windows CE
> > based controllers/display nits for point of sale and similar
> > applications from which the ClearNav and presumably this one are
> > based. And leveraging existing technology is a good thing. Porting
> > Windows Mobile based applications like WinPilot and SeeYou Mobile to
> > these devices should be relatively easy.
>
> > Darryl
>
> > On Sep 10, 7:44*pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>
> > > So, Richard, what operating system does it use? *I'm presuming is isn't
> > > "Windows Vista Ultimate" due to the hardware requirements for Vista. *Google
> > > doesn't turn up any other "Ultimate Operating System".
>
> > > FWIW, Winpilot at one time (and maybe still) delivered a fully functional
> > > Win32 version along with the PDA version. *GPS_LOG Win CE does this too.
> > > All you need to run the Win32 versions is a computer with an X86 compatible
> > > processor running some version of the Windows OS.
>
> > > I often run GPS_LOG in one window on my desktop and SeeYou or Condor in
> > > another. *I use a loopback serial cable to transfer NMEA data from SeeYor or
> > > Condor from Com1 to Com2 where GPS_LOG picks it up and displays it. *It's a
> > > great way to learn PDA software.
>
> > > Bill D
>
> > > "Richard" > wrote in message
>
> > ....
> > > On Sep 10, 4:46 pm, Andy > wrote:
>
> > > > On Sep 7, 6:47 am, Richard > wrote:
>
> > > > > The Craggy Aero Ultimate supports Borgelt Varios, B50, B500, CAI 302,
> > > > > LX1600, or any NMEA GPS. Software WinPilot PRO or ADV.
>
> > > > > Larger Screen , 4 times the resolution VGA, more processing power,
> > > > > brighter adjustable display.
>
> > > > >http://www.craggyaero.com/ultimate.htm
>
> > > > > Shipping in October 2008.
>
> > > > The fact that it is intended to support see you mobile is a major plus
> > > > as far as I'm concerned. The SeeYou team has a good history of
> > > > supporting their software and for being open to user suggestions.
> > > > Will that also be available in October? Will users be able to load
> > > > software updates obtained directly from the See You web site?
>
> > > > Andy
>
> > > Naviter has said they will support the Ultimate Platform, but have not
> > > give a date. * It will be a new software package specific to the
> > > Ulitimate operating system. * Current users probalby will not be able
> > > to transfer their license. *I believe users will be able to update
> > > from the SeeYou site or my web site.
>
> > > Thanks for your interest.
>
> > > Richardwww.craggyaero.com-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Daryll,
>
> The Craggy Ultimate uses a windows CE operating system.
> Unfortunately *Porting
> Windows Mobile based applications like WinPilot and SeeYou Mobile to
> these devices is not relatively easy. *I have this feedback from both
> WinPilot and Naviter.
>
> Richardwww.craggyaero.com

Rchard

The meaning of the word relative is um err relative to something.
Relative to any other operating system I can think of, porting from
Windows Mobile to Windows CE is relatively easy. You clearly need to
make a choice of an appropriate Windows CE platform. Windows XP
Embedded, Windows XP, Windows Vista, OS/X, Linux or FreeBSD + GUI of
your choice, VxWorks, ..., ... are all going to be *much* harder.

Personally I'll pay much more attention to this space once Naviter has
SeeYou Mobile running on this class of devices. I'm getting old and
set in my ways and unwilling to change my software tools. Given the
space premium I also look forward to the day that a GUI flight
computer will fully include in one integrated package all soaring
specific instruments including a world class (C302 is my benchmark)
electronic audio vario, with inputs for gear warnings, etc. similar to
the 302. The display may be separate from the rest of the system, but
the display needs to be the display for as much as possible and the
system really needs to be properly integrated.

Darryl

[John Galloway[_1_]]

I very much like the idea of a daylight readable screen and I am attracted
to the ClearNav and the Ultimate but they both puzzle me:

ClearNav - I don't understand the logic in having the GPS and logger
inside the display unit instead of in a compact panel mount
vario/gps/logger unit similar to the Cambridge 302. It may all make sense
if they come up with a very good and inexpensive compatible variometer.
Until then I'm out.

Ultimate - No matter how good the display I couldn't bring myself to pay
$2,500 (almost as much as the ClearNav) for a PDA replacement even
although it is bigger brighter and faster.

John Galloway

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 11, 12:38*pm, John Galloway > wrote:
> I very much like the idea of a daylight readable screen and I am attracted
> to the ClearNav and the Ultimate but they both puzzle me:
>
> ClearNav - I don't understand the logic in having the GPS and logger
> inside the display unit instead of in a compact panel mount
> vario/gps/logger unit similar to the Cambridge 302. *It may all make sense
> if they come up with a very good and inexpensive compatible variometer. *
> Until then I'm out.
>
> Ultimate - No matter how good the display I couldn't bring myself to pay
> $2,500 (almost as much as the ClearNav) for a PDA replacement even
> although it is bigger brighter and faster.
>
> John Galloway

The ClearNav folks clearly have a team capable of doing a world class
vario/logger and say it's coming in 2009. Like you I don't fully
understand the logic of what they've done so far -- I'd prefer to see
a separate black box with GPS/logger/vario/airspeed/temp/undercarriage
sensors etc. all in once place with the display providing just display
and compute. Maybe support different version with basic GPS through to
full vario etc. in the black box, and with a goal of easily upgrading
either component over time as technology changes.

When CleanNav comes out with a vario I hope they have an option to
*not* have it panel mount. I would be out of space. A thin moving tape
type display for the vario might work well down the side of the
ClearNav for example. This becomes an issue when wanting to integrate
third party software like SeeYou with a device like this. The desire
to be integrated would mean you end up where it really is more than a
port of existing software.

Darryl

[126Driver]

Anbody have side by side specs for the Ultimate and ClearNav? I
originally thought the Ultimate took more space and power; and seemed
to offer less function for the same $s, as you mentioned. But this
may be incorrect.

Steve

On Sep 11, 3:38*pm, John Galloway > wrote:
> I very much like the idea of a daylight readable screen and I am attracted
> to the ClearNav and the Ultimate but they both puzzle me:
>
> ClearNav - I don't understand the logic in having the GPS and logger
> inside the display unit instead of in a compact panel mount
> vario/gps/logger unit similar to the Cambridge 302. *It may all make sense
> if they come up with a very good and inexpensive compatible variometer. *
> Until then I'm out.
>
> Ultimate - No matter how good the display I couldn't bring myself to pay
> $2,500 (almost as much as the ClearNav) for a PDA replacement even
> although it is bigger brighter and faster.
>
> John Galloway

[Paul Remde]

Hi Steve,

You can see specs on the ClearNav here:
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/nk.htm

I'm curious about the user interface on the "Ultimate". I believe it is a
trackball. I personally would prefer the keypad used on the ClearNav to a
trackball.

I find the ClearNav's keypad to be very easy to use. Also, the ClearNav is
very much designed with "simple user-interface" as a key design
consideration. I think it succeeds at that goal superbly. I predict that
there will be many more ClearNav units sold than "Ultimate" systems. Also,
NK is a first class company that will be creating many very nice soaring
instruments in the near future and they (and I) will support the ClearNav
extremely well. But I'm biased because I sell, support and am writing the
manual for the ClearNav.

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

"126Driver" > wrote in message
...
Anbody have side by side specs for the Ultimate and ClearNav? I
originally thought the Ultimate took more space and power; and seemed
to offer less function for the same $s, as you mentioned. But this
may be incorrect.

Steve

On Sep 11, 3:38 pm, John Galloway > wrote:
> I very much like the idea of a daylight readable screen and I am attracted
> to the ClearNav and the Ultimate but they both puzzle me:
>
> ClearNav - I don't understand the logic in having the GPS and logger
> inside the display unit instead of in a compact panel mount
> vario/gps/logger unit similar to the Cambridge 302. It may all make sense
> if they come up with a very good and inexpensive compatible variometer.
> Until then I'm out.
>
> Ultimate - No matter how good the display I couldn't bring myself to pay
> $2,500 (almost as much as the ClearNav) for a PDA replacement even
> although it is bigger brighter and faster.
>
> John Galloway

[Udo Rumpf[_2_]]

I disagree strongly, the controls should be clustered around the screen.
The remote is just an other piece of hardware attached to a wire flying
around the cockpit. Naturally I can see and understand your bias.
There are products that function much closer to my way of thinking and I
am not bias. See http://www.triadis.ch
Udo

>I find the ClearNav's keypad to be very easy to use. Also, the
ClearNav
>is
>very much designed with "simple user-interface" as a key design
>consideration. I think it succeeds at that goal superbly. I predict
that
>
>there will be many more ClearNav units sold than "Ultimate" systems.
>Also,
>NK is a first class company that will be creating many very nice soaring

>instruments in the near future and they (and I) will support the ClearNav

>extremely well. But I'm biased because I sell, support and am writing
the

[Udo Rumpf[_2_]]

I disagree strongly, the controls should be clustered around the screen.
The remote is just an other piece of hardware attached to a wire flying
around the cockpit. Naturally I can see and understand your bias.
There are products that function much closer to my way of thinking and I
am not bias. See http://www.triadis.ch
Udo

>I find the ClearNav's keypad to be very easy to use. Also, the
ClearNav
>is
>very much designed with "simple user-interface" as a key design
>consideration. I think it succeeds at that goal superbly. I predict
that
>
>there will be many more ClearNav units sold than "Ultimate" systems.
>Also,
>NK is a first class company that will be creating many very nice soaring

>instruments in the near future and they (and I) will support the ClearNav

>extremely well. But I'm biased because I sell, support and am writing
the

[John Galloway[_1_]]

I think the hand control is one of the most attractive features of the
ClearNav. I flew for several years with a Borgelt B100, and later a
B2000, with the remote control velcroed to the top of left side of the
seat pan where my left hand rested. It was a perfectly natural and
intuitive arrangement that was far easier and steadier to use than either
a touch screen or controls around the screen - both of which I use at
present. It was also easy to route the cable neatly to it. There was
never any need to look at the control - the hand quickly learns the
functions.

John Galloway


At 16:38 15 September 2008, Udo Rumpf wrote:
>I disagree strongly, the controls should be clustered around the screen.
>The remote is just an other piece of hardware attached to a wire flying
>around the cockpit. Naturally I can see and understand your bias.
>There are products that function much closer to my way of thinking and I
>am not bias. See http://www.triadis.ch
>Udo
>
>>I find the ClearNav's keypad to be very easy to use. Also, the
>ClearNav
>>is
>>very much designed with "simple user-interface" as a key design
>>consideration. I think it succeeds at that goal superbly. I predict
>that
>>
>>there will be many more ClearNav units sold than "Ultimate" systems.
>>Also,
>>NK is a first class company that will be creating many very nice
soaring
>
>>instruments in the near future and they (and I) will support the
ClearNav
>
>>extremely well. But I'm biased because I sell, support and am writing
>the
>
>

[Bill Daniels]

I predict the ultimate interface will be voice control not keypads or
trackballs. Voice already works on cellphones and in cars. With more
processing power will work fine in gliders.

I can also predict that the most common installation in 5 years will be an
open system using off the shelf hardware running soaring specific software
of the user's choice - just like the PDA systems we now use. The difference
will be bigger, more readable screens and more processing power running more
sophisticated software.

LED backlight LCD monitors are already available in the 1500 - 2000 nit
brightness range which makes them very readable in direct sunlight. These
are likely to completely replace the CCFL backlights now common due to their
comparatively low power requirements. 8" OLED screens are due 'soon' which
will do a better job on even less power. "Electronic Paper" displays use
almost no power and are as readable as a newspaper in direct sunlight but
their response time needs to improve by 2 - 3 times. I predict a very
usable 8" screen will cost less than $300.

VIA Pico ITX and Intel Atom motherboards already offer plenty of processing
power in matchbox sizes. The price of SSD mass storage is in free fall.
Imagine a desktop PC shrunk to matchbox size running on a couple of LiFePo4
D batteries.

Its the classic Mac vs PC vs Linux debate. There will be a minority which
doesn't like to fiddle with configurations and will buy closed systems. The
rest of us will buy open systems because they are cheaper, give us a wider
choice and can be updated more easily.

I run free software on a $100 used PDA. My only gripe is that the screen is
too small and dim. My scheme is to use a thin screen over a rectangular
panel of old round instruments with the screen hinged at the top. If the
computer goes kaput, I'd just lift the screen and use the old instruments
hidden behind it.





"Udo Rumpf" > wrote in message
...
>I disagree strongly, the controls should be clustered around the screen.
> The remote is just an other piece of hardware attached to a wire flying
> around the cockpit. Naturally I can see and understand your bias.
> There are products that function much closer to my way of thinking and I
> am not bias. See http://www.triadis.ch
> Udo
>
>>I find the ClearNav's keypad to be very easy to use. Also, the
> ClearNav
>>is
>>very much designed with "simple user-interface" as a key design
>>consideration. I think it succeeds at that goal superbly. I predict
> that
>>
>>there will be many more ClearNav units sold than "Ultimate" systems.
>>Also,
>>NK is a first class company that will be creating many very nice soaring
>
>>instruments in the near future and they (and I) will support the ClearNav
>
>>extremely well. But I'm biased because I sell, support and am writing
> the
>

[Bruce]

As far as I can see the Triadis is an open "off the shelf components" based product.
It has a hardware specific version of XCsoar loaded on it, to use the control buttons. However it is opensource software
, which is by definition user customisable. About as good as it gets.

Regrettably I understand it will not fit in many panels.

Bruce

Bill Daniels wrote:
> I predict the ultimate interface will be voice control not keypads or
> trackballs. Voice already works on cellphones and in cars. With more
> processing power will work fine in gliders.
>
> I can also predict that the most common installation in 5 years will be an
> open system using off the shelf hardware running soaring specific software
> of the user's choice - just like the PDA systems we now use. The difference
> will be bigger, more readable screens and more processing power running more
> sophisticated software.
>
> LED backlight LCD monitors are already available in the 1500 - 2000 nit
> brightness range which makes them very readable in direct sunlight. These
> are likely to completely replace the CCFL backlights now common due to their
> comparatively low power requirements. 8" OLED screens are due 'soon' which
> will do a better job on even less power. "Electronic Paper" displays use
> almost no power and are as readable as a newspaper in direct sunlight but
> their response time needs to improve by 2 - 3 times. I predict a very
> usable 8" screen will cost less than $300.
>
> VIA Pico ITX and Intel Atom motherboards already offer plenty of processing
> power in matchbox sizes. The price of SSD mass storage is in free fall.
> Imagine a desktop PC shrunk to matchbox size running on a couple of LiFePo4
> D batteries.
>
> Its the classic Mac vs PC vs Linux debate. There will be a minority which
> doesn't like to fiddle with configurations and will buy closed systems. The
> rest of us will buy open systems because they are cheaper, give us a wider
> choice and can be updated more easily.
>
> I run free software on a $100 used PDA. My only gripe is that the screen is
> too small and dim. My scheme is to use a thin screen over a rectangular
> panel of old round instruments with the screen hinged at the top. If the
> computer goes kaput, I'd just lift the screen and use the old instruments
> hidden behind it.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Udo Rumpf" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I disagree strongly, the controls should be clustered around the screen.
>> The remote is just an other piece of hardware attached to a wire flying
>> around the cockpit. Naturally I can see and understand your bias.
>> There are products that function much closer to my way of thinking and I
>> am not bias. See http://www.triadis.ch
>> Udo
>>
>>> I find the ClearNav's keypad to be very easy to use. Also, the
>> ClearNav
>>> is
>>> very much designed with "simple user-interface" as a key design
>>> consideration. I think it succeeds at that goal superbly. I predict
>> that
>>> there will be many more ClearNav units sold than "Ultimate" systems.
>>> Also,
>>> NK is a first class company that will be creating many very nice soaring
>>> instruments in the near future and they (and I) will support the ClearNav
>>> extremely well. But I'm biased because I sell, support and am writing
>> the
>>
>
>

[Tim Mara]

I think a touch screen as on PDA's is still the most useful.....letting you
look directly at what you are trying to change rather than looking down at a
keypad, then back at a screen (and with all this going on attempting to look
outside as well...too many places and not enough eyes..apparently so do PC
Manufacturers as this seems to be the next breakthrough in desktop computing
several manufacturers are pursuing this line.
tim


"Udo Rumpf" > wrote in message
...
>I disagree strongly, the controls should be clustered around the screen.
> The remote is just an other piece of hardware attached to a wire flying
> around the cockpit. Naturally I can see and understand your bias.
> There are products that function much closer to my way of thinking and I
> am not bias. See http://www.triadis.ch
> Udo
>
>>I find the ClearNav's keypad to be very easy to use. Also, the
> ClearNav
>>is
>>very much designed with "simple user-interface" as a key design
>>consideration. I think it succeeds at that goal superbly. I predict
> that
>>
>>there will be many more ClearNav units sold than "Ultimate" systems.
>>Also,
>>NK is a first class company that will be creating many very nice soaring
>
>>instruments in the near future and they (and I) will support the ClearNav
>
>>extremely well. But I'm biased because I sell, support and am writing
> the
>

[Mike the Strike]

Clearly both touch-screen and remotes have dedicated users. I prefer
a remote because I can't reach my instrument panel and have difficulty
touching the screen of a PDA in our turbulent western air.

Also, an early PDA system I had flew out of its cradle and landed
behind my back, where it was a little less than useful. I know the
new cradles are better, but I still prefer an instrument to be firmly
bolted to the panel.

I'm sure we'll see some good developments in the next year or two and
I'm watching these new developments closely, meanwhile I'll stick
with my SN10.

Mike

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 19:47 15 September 2008, Tim Mara wrote:
>I think a touch screen as on PDA's is still the most useful.....letting
you
>
>look directly at what you are trying to change rather than looking down
at
>a
>keypad, then back at a screen (and with all this going on attempting to
>look
>outside as well...too many places and not enough eyes..apparently so do
PC
>
>Manufacturers as this seems to be the next breakthrough in desktop
>computing
>several manufacturers are pursuing this line.
>tim
>
>
With a properly designed handheld remote, in my experience, you don't
need to look at the control at all.

John Galloway

[Tony Verhulst]

Mike the Strike wrote:
> ..... difficulty
> touching the screen of a PDA in our turbulent western air.


I'm wondering how a trackball would work here.

Tony

[Mike the Strike]

On Sep 16, 4:54*pm, Tony Verhulst > wrote:
> Mike the Strike wrote:
> > ..... difficulty
> > touching the screen of a PDA in our *turbulent western air.
>
> I'm wondering how a trackball would work here.
>
> Tony

A trackball would work fine if you could locate it where your hand or
wrist is supported. The problem with a touch screen is that your arm
and hand are extended and move under the g forces on the glider. I
have no problem at all with a remote located by my left hand.

Mike

[Greg O'Sullivan]

Bill Daniels wrote:

> I run free software on a $100 used PDA. My only gripe is that the screen is
> too small and dim.

Has anyone tried one of those ruggedized PDAs in the cockpit, like
the TDS Recon. In theory it fixes the too dim problem.

http://www.tdsway.com/products/recon

[Paul Remde]

Hi Bill,

I just searched the TDS page below looking for any indication that the
screen is sunlight readable and I couldn't find anything. Perhaps I missed
it. What gives you the impression that it is brighter than any other PDA?

Paul Remde

"Greg O'Sullivan" > wrote in message
u...
> Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>> I run free software on a $100 used PDA. My only gripe is that the screen
>> is too small and dim.
>
> Has anyone tried one of those ruggedized PDAs in the cockpit, like
> the TDS Recon. In theory it fixes the too dim problem.
>
> http://www.tdsway.com/products/recon
>
>

[[email protected]]

On Sep 17, 6:42*am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi Bill,
>
> I just searched the TDS page below looking for any indication that the
> screen is sunlight readable and I couldn't find anything. *Perhaps I missed
> it. *What gives you the impression that it is brighter than any other PDA?
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Greg O'Sullivan" > wrote in message
>
> u...
>
>
>
> > Bill Daniels wrote:
>
> >> I run free software on a $100 used PDA. *My only gripe is that the screen
> >> is too small and dim.
>
> > Has anyone tried one of those ruggedized PDAs in the cockpit, like
> > the TDS Recon. In theory it fixes the too dim problem.
>
> >http://www.tdsway.com/products/recon- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Paul,

See the specifications page: "Sunlight-readable color TFT display"

[01-- Zero One]

" > wrote in message
:

> On Sep 17, 6:42 am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> > Hi Bill,
> >
> > I just searched the TDS page below looking for any indication that the
> > screen is sunlight readable and I couldn't find anything. Perhaps I missed
> > it. What gives you the impression that it is brighter than any other PDA?
> >
> > Paul Remde
> >
> > "Greg O'Sullivan" > wrote in message
> >
> > u...
> >
> >
> >
> > > Bill Daniels wrote:
> >
> > >> I run free software on a $100 used PDA. My only gripe is that the screen
> > >> is too small and dim.
> >
> > > Has anyone tried one of those ruggedized PDAs in the cockpit, like
> > > the TDS Recon. In theory it fixes the too dim problem.
> >
> > >http://www.tdsway.com/products/recon- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Paul,
>
> See the specifications page: "Sunlight-readable color TFT display"

Since they do not quote any brightness specs, I would be very
suspicious.

Larry

[Richard[_1_]]

On Sep 16, 4:54*pm, Tony Verhulst > wrote:
> Mike the Strike wrote:
> > ..... difficulty
> > touching the screen of a PDA in our *turbulent western air.
>
> I'm wondering how a trackball would work here.
>
> Tony

Tony,

The trackball I am using with the Ultimate is a Micro Track handheld
trackball, it fits easily in your hand, move the ball with your
thumb . It works very well with either hand and the mouse arrow does
not move when you take you thumb off the ball. I perfer it to the
touch screen input especially in turbulence.

Please see pictures http://www.craggyaero.com/ultimate.htm .

Any USB mouse type input will work with the Utimate. I have tried a
larger ball track mouse but could not find a suitable place to put it
and did not like it as well as the handheld. I guess you could strap
it to your leg. I have also looked at a joystick type mouse, but they
are very expensive.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Bruce]

Also states that it is a front lit (reflective ) display.

Bruce

Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi Bill,
>
> I just searched the TDS page below looking for any indication that the
> screen is sunlight readable and I couldn't find anything. Perhaps I missed
> it. What gives you the impression that it is brighter than any other PDA?
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Greg O'Sullivan" > wrote in message
> u...
>> Bill Daniels wrote:
>>
>>> I run free software on a $100 used PDA. My only gripe is that the screen
>>> is too small and dim.
>> Has anyone tried one of those ruggedized PDAs in the cockpit, like
>> the TDS Recon. In theory it fixes the too dim problem.
>>
>> http://www.tdsway.com/products/recon
>>
>>
>
>

[brianDG303]

I researched this on the internet at some length, and there is one
independent review that notes the screen as brighter than ordinary
PDA's. I've never seen any PDA screen specification that tells the
brightness.

My conclusion was without searching one out and comparing it myself it
wasn't worth the risk, too much $$$. Now I'm waiting for SeeYou to
port to WinCE which seems to be the most viable solution to the issue,
and at a very low cost. Say $250 for a device with GPS and then
whatever SeeYou want's for the software, I expect there will be an
upcharge. I'm hoping for January 09.

On Sep 17, 4:42*am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi Bill,
>
> I just searched the TDS page below looking for any indication that the
> screen is sunlight readable and I couldn't find anything. *Perhaps I missed
> it. *What gives you the impression that it is brighter than any other PDA?
>
> Paul Remde

>
> > Has anyone tried one of those ruggedized PDAs in the cockpit, like
> > the TDS Recon. In theory it fixes the too dim problem.
>
> >http://www.tdsway.com/products/recon

[[email protected]]

On Sep 17, 6:42 am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi Bill,
>
> I just searched the TDS page below looking for any indication that the
> screen is sunlight readable and I couldn't find anything. Perhaps I missed
> it. What gives you the impression that it is brighter than any other PDA?
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Greg O'Sullivan" > wrote in message
>
> u...
>
> > Bill Daniels wrote:
>
> >> I run free software on a $100 used PDA. My only gripe is that the screen
> >> is too small and dim.
>
> > Has anyone tried one of those ruggedized PDAs in the cockpit, like
> > the TDS Recon. In theory it fixes the too dim problem.
>
> >http://www.tdsway.com/products/recon

I spent the last week surveying with Trimble equipment. The screens
were quite visible in direct sunlight when the sun was at my back,
however difficult to read with indirect sunlight or the sun at my face.