Children in gliders?

[Roger Worden]

Are there some common guidelines about how big or old kids should be before
going for a glider ride? My concerns are around the safety harnesses being
intended for adults...

How do you ensure the harness is safe and is not going to slip around or off
a kid?

Are there safe ways to use a booster seat to enable a small one to be up
high enough to see out, without a possibility of it becoming a loose object
in the cockpit?

Anyone have experience with this subject?

[Bruce]

Hi Roger

At our club we obtained a booster seat specifically for the vertically challenged. Including one of our instructors...

What we found worked very well is a seat made of solid moulded expanded polystyrene. The seat is in two parts with a
seat part and separate back.
The back is articulated on the seat part by a zip connecting the two covers.
the back has "wings" that allow the four point harness to hold the booster in place and have the straps at an
appropriate height for the shoulders of the little ones.

cheap, worked well.

We experimented with solutions involving just a seat part, but found that the shoulder straps were in the wrong place.
Also the seat only option was difficulty to secure to prevent movement.

Picture - showing how the booster positions a light ten year old safely.

http://www.whisperingwings.org.za/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album10&id=P1010014


Roger Worden wrote:
> Are there some common guidelines about how big or old kids should be before
> going for a glider ride? My concerns are around the safety harnesses being
> intended for adults...
>
> How do you ensure the harness is safe and is not going to slip around or off
> a kid?
>
> Are there safe ways to use a booster seat to enable a small one to be up
> high enough to see out, without a possibility of it becoming a loose object
> in the cockpit?
>
> Anyone have experience with this subject?
>
>

[Vaughn Simon]

"Roger Worden" > wrote in message
...
> Are there some common guidelines about how big or old kids should be before
> going for a glider ride? My concerns are around the safety harnesses being
> intended for adults...
>
> How do you ensure the harness is safe and is not going to slip around or off a
> kid?
>
> Are there safe ways to use a booster seat to enable a small one to be up high
> enough to see out, without a possibility of it becoming a loose object in the
> cockpit?

For a few years I had a nice gig as a rides pilot, my youngest passengers
were in the 5 or 6 year-old category. I see little point in taking up a child
that is too young to understand and later remember the experience. We never
tried a booster chair, but used cushions instead. (There might be something to
be said for booster chairs.) I don't recall any particular problems with an "H"
harness fitting a child of that age. Our procedure was to instruct the child to
cross arms and grip the shoulder straps high on their chest with both hands and
"don't let go". The main purpose of this was to keep their inquisitive hands
off of the controls. If you put the child in the front seat, don't forget the
ballast!

Keep the briefing short, but describe the experience in terms that they can
understand: The glider "tilts like a bicycle" when it turns, and "goes up and
down like a kiddie rollercoaster". If your takeoff area is bumpy, warn of that
just before takeoff. Throughout the ride, keep talking. Describe what you are
going to do, and point out interesting things on the ground; particularly the
place you just took off from, and any family that may be there to watch.

As for the ride, simpler and shorter is better. As every good entertainer
knows, "leave them wanting more". If you land with a sick and/or terrified
child, you will have turned that person off on your favorite sport for life.


--
Vaughn

.................................................. .......
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[Ralph Jones[_2_]]

On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:52:20 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
> wrote:
[snip]
>
> Keep the briefing short, but describe the experience in terms that they can
>understand: The glider "tilts like a bicycle" when it turns, and "goes up and
>down like a kiddie rollercoaster". If your takeoff area is bumpy, warn of that
>just before takeoff.

Some years back I had the pleasure of taking a highly gifted
6-year-old for a ride in a 2-32. When we hit a little chop, he
exclaimed "Don't make it go all wiggly!"

When I explained that it was just like a boat going over waves, he
said "Oh. Okay", and all was well....;-)

rj

[HL Falbaum]

"Roger Worden" > wrote in message
...
> Are there some common guidelines about how big or old kids should be
> before going for a glider ride? My concerns are around the safety
> harnesses being intended for adults...
>
> How do you ensure the harness is safe and is not going to slip around or
> off a kid?
>
> Are there safe ways to use a booster seat to enable a small one to be up
> high enough to see out, without a possibility of it becoming a loose
> object in the cockpit?
>
> Anyone have experience with this subject?
>

There are many problems with this---
Psychological
Physiological
Intellectual
Physical.

The most pressing is the physical. The child must be able to see out or
motioin sickness can be a problem. In the event of (God forbid) a landing
mishap, the child must be protected--seat cushions will make it worse. A
solid booster chair is a must, and an adapter for the shoulder harness so it
won't slip off is needed as well.

Find out if they like carnival rides--if so, no problems with fear.

Don't try to explain everything in detail.

Good luck.

[John Roche-Kelly]

How confident are you that the child can jettison the canopy and deploy the
parachute in the event of an emergency? The parents at least should be
aware of the risks. Picture yourself at the crash scene having safely
fallen to earth as the ambulance personnel remove the body of a child,
securely fastenned into the remains of the glider. what do you tell the
parents?

Questions I have asked myself and, yes, I will fly children.
Best wishes

JohnR-K

[Vaughn Simon]

"John Roche-Kelly" > wrote in message
...
> How confident are you that the child can jettison the canopy and deploy the
> parachute

Parachute? What parachute? Chutes are neither required nor common in two
seat gliders in the USA. They are fairly common in single seat gliders, but in
non-aero flights in airplanes they are virtually unheard of.

But I suppose that is a subject for another thread...


--
Vaughn

.................................................. .......
Nothing personal, but if you are posting through Google Groups I may not receive
your message. Google refuses to control the flood of spam messages originating
in their system, so on any given day I may or may not have Google blocked. Try
a real NNTP server & news reader program and you will never go back. All you
need is access to an NNTP server (AKA "news server") and a news reader program.
You probably already have a news reader program in your computer (Hint: Outlook
Express). Assuming that your Usenet needs are modest, use
http://news.aioe.org/ for free and/or http://www.teranews.com/ for a one-time
$3.95 setup fee.
.................................................. ........

Will poofread for food.

[Bob Kuykendall]

I'd go T1 on that, nice windup but it breaks a bit early.

Thanks, Bob K.

On Sep 10, 8:23*am, John Roche-Kelly >
wrote:
> How confident are you that the child can jettison the canopy and deploy the
> parachute in the event of an emergency? The parents at least should be
> aware of the risks. Picture yourself at the crash scene having safely
> fallen to earth as the ambulance personnel remove the body of a child,
> securely fastenned into the remains of the glider. what do you tell the
> parents?
>
> Questions I have asked myself and, yes, I will fly children.
> Best wishes
>
> JohnR-K

[Papa3]

On Sep 10, 10:48*am, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:
> "Roger Worden" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > Are there some common guidelines about how big or old kids should be
> > before going for a glider ride? My concerns are around the safety
> > harnesses being intended for adults...
>
> > How do you ensure the harness is safe and is not going to slip around or
> > off a kid?
>
> > Are there safe ways to use a booster seat to enable a small one to be up
> > high enough to see out, without a possibility of it becoming a loose
> > object in the cockpit?
>
> > Anyone have experience with this subject?
>
> There are many problems with this---
> Psychological
> Physiological
> Intellectual
> Physical.
>
> The most pressing is the physical. The child must be able to see out or
> motioin sickness can be a problem. In the event of (God forbid) a landing
> mishap, the child must be protected--seat cushions will make it worse. A
> solid booster chair is a must, and an adapter for the shoulder harness so it
> won't slip off is needed as well.
>
> Find out if they like carnival rides--if so, no problems with fear.
>
> Don't try to explain everything in detail.
>
> Good luck.

From practical experience with my kids (currently 4 and nearly 7) who
have flown since they were about 3, I'd just add:

- In something like a 2-32 or 2-33, remove the rear stick (it's easy
to do) for really little ones until you're sure they can obey
instructions not to touch. By the time my guys hit 4 or so that was
no longer an issue.
- Booster seat with integral backrest (see for instance Graco Turbo
model). This has the advantage of shoulder harness guides that align
nicely with typical airplane and glider shoulder harnesses to provide
the proper spacing for child-sized chests.
- In something like a 2-33, use the LATCH system tether (I think this
is the global term, not just US) to anchor the seat to a structural
member to prevent it from sliding around.
- Put the seat on top of a high density foam pad (which won't
compress) to provide additional friction to prevent sliding and give
additional height.
- Snug them in good and tight.

Early flights were intentionally sled rides to just get them used to
the idea. Nowadays, they actually ask ("hey dad, can we go to the
airport today.") Last weekend was a big one for us, as my son
actually took the controls for 10 minutes to practice turns, speed
control, etc. Prior to that, he would just want to do a quick turn and
then give it back. Key is to make it fun and low pressure.
Nowadays, the kids look for bald eagles (saw one last weekend), remark
on backyard pools, farm animals, etc. Good fun.

P3

[ContestID67]

Great ideas above.

I have taken up a few sub-five year olds. Because of their weight, I
had to fly front seat. The problem then is keeping an eye on the
child because it is nearly impossible to turn around to look (even in
a 2-33).

So I resort to talking about everything and making sure I get
feedback. Phrases like "Weee!" and "How are you doing?" and "Look at
that!" are key. If there ever was a time to know the name of the
child, this is it.

My $0.02.

- John DeRosa

[[email protected]]

I took my grandson at the age of two. We removed the normal seat from
the club L-23 and used the regular harness to secure his FAA approved
car seat into the rear cockpit area. This secured him and also
elevated him enough to see out.

For two weeks before the flight, we went to the club and strapped him
in the back while I was in the front. We would then raise the wing and
make small bounces and motions sitting there on the ground. This got
him used to the eventual motion of flight. I also gave him a
disconnected microphone so he 'talk' on the radio. He really liked the
phrase 'roger dodger'.

The flight took place during morning calm and was a sled ride from
pattern altitude. He thoroughly enjoyed it and talked about it for
many months afterward.

Horst
L33

[Roger Worden]

Thanks to all for the suggestions! I'll take a look at how a car seat with a
back will work in our Blanik L13. Should be do-able.

My 4-year-old granddaughter is a real thrillseeker (e.g. loves Space
Mountain and Matterhorn at Disneyland), so I think she's going to want to go
up soon.

"Roger Worden" > wrote in message
...
> Are there some common guidelines about how big or old kids should be
> before going for a glider ride? My concerns are around the safety
> harnesses being intended for adults...
>
> How do you ensure the harness is safe and is not going to slip around or
> off a kid?
>
> Are there safe ways to use a booster seat to enable a small one to be up
> high enough to see out, without a possibility of it becoming a loose
> object in the cockpit?
>
> Anyone have experience with this subject?
>

[Bruce]

We use one in our Blanik L13 - works fine.

Roger Worden wrote:
> Thanks to all for the suggestions! I'll take a look at how a car seat with a
> back will work in our Blanik L13. Should be do-able.
>
> My 4-year-old granddaughter is a real thrillseeker (e.g. loves Space
> Mountain and Matterhorn at Disneyland), so I think she's going to want to go
> up soon.
>
> "Roger Worden" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Are there some common guidelines about how big or old kids should be
>> before going for a glider ride? My concerns are around the safety
>> harnesses being intended for adults...
>>
>> How do you ensure the harness is safe and is not going to slip around or
>> off a kid?
>>
>> Are there safe ways to use a booster seat to enable a small one to be up
>> high enough to see out, without a possibility of it becoming a loose
>> object in the cockpit?
>>
>> Anyone have experience with this subject?
>>
>
>

[J a c k]

Vaughn Simon wrote:

> Parachute? What parachute? Chutes are neither required nor common in two
> seat gliders in the USA. They are fairly common in single seat gliders, but in
> non-aero flights in airplanes they are virtually unheard of.


I do not use a parachute for non-aerobatics flights unless all
occupants have parachutes, and are trained in their use. With or
without chutes, all occupants will know how to escape from the
cockpit in an emergency and will be reasonably capable of doing
so, or they do not fly. This prevents me from carrying young
children, or certain adults.

C'est la Vie.


Jack