Russian Tu-160 Blackjack bombers land in Venezuela - Peter the Greatnuclear-powered heavy missile cruiser and battle group on the way

[AirRaid[_2_]]

Two Russian Tu-160 strategic bombers land in Venezuela, nuclear battle
cruiser on way


September 10, 2008, 9:57 PM (GMT+02:00)

The Russian defense ministry said the Tu-160 nuclear-capable, multi-
mission bombers (NATO-coded Blackjack) arrived Wednesday Sept. 10 at a
Venezuelan air base to take part in joint military exercises along
with a Russian flotilla.

DEBKAfile’s military sources first disclosed on Sept. 9, that the
nuclear maritime reconnaissance/anti-submarine warfare turboprop
TU-142 (NATO coded Bear F, or Bear J), which can fly 6,500 km, i.e.
from Venezuela to the US coast, will also be based at a Venezuelan
military airfield.

Caracas announced that four Russian ships with almost 1,000 sailors
aboard would join its navy for maneuvers on November 10-14.

Like the Russian air contingent, the Russian flotilla is also bigger
and more formidable than Russian and Venezuelan spokesmen have
indicated.

According to DEBKAfile’s military sources, it consists of six to eight
vessels, led by the Kirov Class (Type 1144.2) Peter the Great nuclear-
powered heavy missile cruiser, one of the largest warships in the
world, which is designed to guard the rest of the group against
submarine and air attack.

It is armed with the Granit (NATO designated SS-N-19 Shipwreck) long
range, anti-ship missile system, consisting of 20 missiles. If the
lead missile is intercepted, one of the others moves into the lead
role.

Peter the Great is also equipped with 40 S-300F air defense missiles.

Other ships in the Russian flotilla are the Admiral Chabanenko , the
Russian navy’s most advanced guided missile anti-submarine battleship,
and the guided nuclear missile cruiser Pyotr Velikiy . They are
escorted by five smaller warships and a fuel vessel.

DEBKAfile’s military experts deduce from the makeup of the Russian
group that, while it is being presented as primarily defensive, in
fact it is the core infrastructure of an important Russian air and
fleet presence for shielding a potential assault deployment in the
event of a Kremlin decision to base one in Venezuela.

http://debka.com/headline.php?hid=5570


I'd like to see the U.S. send a full sized battle group to the
region, base 2 to 4 B-1B Lancer strategic bombers in a friendly South
American country and have a B-2 from Whiteman AFB fly over both the
base where the TU-160s are and the Russian ships.

Russians need to be kept in check without escalating things too far.
Ronald Reagan would not have tolerated this behavior from the Soviets
during the 80s, without an American response. The people in charge
of George W. Bush need to show some balls and confront the Russians
anytime, anywhere. On land, at sea, in the air.

[Airyx]

On Sep 10, 4:27*pm, AirRaid > wrote:

Wow, this thing is very misinformed.

> According to DEBKAfile’s military sources, it consists of six to eight
> vessels, led by the Kirov Class (Type 1144.2) Peter the Great nuclear-
> powered heavy missile cruiser, one of the largest warships in the
> world, which is designed to guard the rest of the group against
> submarine and air attack.

Air attack, yes, sub attack, not really. It does carry five Ka-27s,
but they are unable to locate a sub contact on their own. They can,
however, prosecute sub contacts after the initial detection has been
done by an escorting ASW ship, like an Udaloy.

> Other ships in the Russian flotilla are the Admiral Chabanenko , the
> Russian navy’s most advanced guided missile anti-submarine battleship,
> and the guided nuclear missile cruiser Pyotr Velikiy . They are
> escorted by five smaller warships and a fuel vessel.

Looks like the author doesn't know that Pyotr Velikiy translates to
Peter the Great.

> I'd like to see the U.S. send a full sized battle group to the
> region, *base 2 to 4 B-1B Lancer strategic bombers in a friendly South
> American country and have a B-2 from Whiteman AFB fly over both the
> base where the TU-160s are and the Russian ships.

What would be the point of that?

> Russians need to be kept in check without escalating things too far.
> Ronald Reagan would not have tolerated this behavior from the Soviets
> during the 80s, without an American response. * The people in charge
> of George W. Bush need to show some balls and confront the Russians
> anytime, anywhere. On land, at sea, in the air.

Uh Huh, Soviet warships transited through the Carribean on a regular
basis during the cold war.

[TJ]

On 10 Sep, 22:27, AirRaid > wrote:
> Two Russian Tu-160 strategic bombers land in Venezuela, nuclear battle
> cruiser on way
>
> September 10, 2008, 9:57 PM (GMT+02:00)
>
> The Russian defense ministry said the Tu-160 nuclear-capable, multi-
> mission bombers (NATO-coded Blackjack) arrived Wednesday Sept. 10 at a
> Venezuelan air base to take part in joint military exercises along
> with a Russian flotilla.
>
> DEBKAfile’s military sources first disclosed on Sept. 9, that the
> nuclear maritime reconnaissance/anti-submarine warfare turboprop
> TU-142 (NATO coded Bear F, or Bear J), which can fly 6,500 km, i.e.
> from Venezuela to the US coast, will also be based at a Venezuelan
> military airfield.
>
> Caracas announced that four Russian ships with almost 1,000 sailors
> aboard would join its navy for maneuvers on November 10-14.
>
> Like the Russian air contingent, the Russian flotilla is also bigger
> and more formidable than Russian and Venezuelan spokesmen have
> indicated.
>
> According to DEBKAfile’s military sources, it consists of six to eight
> vessels, led by the Kirov Class (Type 1144.2) Peter the Great nuclear-
> powered heavy missile cruiser, one of the largest warships in the
> world, which is designed to guard the rest of the group against
> submarine and air attack.
>
> It is armed with the Granit (NATO designated SS-N-19 Shipwreck) long
> range, anti-ship missile system, consisting of 20 missiles. If the
> lead missile is intercepted, one of the others moves into the lead
> role.
>
> Peter the Great is also equipped with 40 S-300F air defense missiles.
>
> Other ships in the Russian flotilla are the Admiral Chabanenko , the
> Russian navy’s most advanced guided missile anti-submarine battleship,
> and the guided nuclear missile cruiser Pyotr Velikiy . They are
> escorted by five smaller warships and a fuel vessel.
>
> DEBKAfile’s military experts deduce from the makeup of the Russian
> group that, while it is being presented as primarily defensive, in
> fact it is the core infrastructure of an important Russian air and
> fleet presence for shielding a potential assault deployment in the
> event of a Kremlin decision to base one in Venezuela.
>
> http://debka.com/headline.php?hid=5570
>
> I'd like to see the U.S. send a full sized battle group to the
> region, *base 2 to 4 B-1B Lancer strategic bombers in a friendly South
> American country and have a B-2 from Whiteman AFB fly over both the
> base where the TU-160s are and the Russian ships.
>
> Russians need to be kept in check without escalating things too far.
> Ronald Reagan would not have tolerated this behavior from the Soviets
> during the 80s, without an American response. * The people in charge
> of George W. Bush need to show some balls and confront the Russians
> anytime, anywhere. On land, at sea, in the air.

Huh? They are flying in international airspace and operating in
international waters. It isn't illegal. The Soviets used to deploy and
operate out of Cuba in the 70s and 80s. Where was the U.S. response to
that?

It is no different to the U.S. deploying heavy strategic bombers to
Europe. Only a few weeks ago there was routine B-2 and B-52
deployments to the UK.

TJ

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Sep 10, 7:16*pm, TJ > wrote:
> On 10 Sep, 22:27, AirRaid > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Two Russian Tu-160 strategic bombers land in Venezuela, nuclear battle
> > cruiser on way
>
> > September 10, 2008, 9:57 PM (GMT+02:00)
>
> > The Russian defense ministry said the Tu-160 nuclear-capable, multi-
> > mission bombers (NATO-coded Blackjack) arrived Wednesday Sept. 10 at a
> > Venezuelan air base to take part in joint military exercises along
> > with a Russian flotilla.
>
> > DEBKAfile’s military sources first disclosed on Sept. 9, that the
> > nuclear maritime reconnaissance/anti-submarine warfare turboprop
> > TU-142 (NATO coded Bear F, or Bear J), which can fly 6,500 km, i.e.
> > from Venezuela to the US coast, will also be based at a Venezuelan
> > military airfield.
>
> > Caracas announced that four Russian ships with almost 1,000 sailors
> > aboard would join its navy for maneuvers on November 10-14.
>
> > Like the Russian air contingent, the Russian flotilla is also bigger
> > and more formidable than Russian and Venezuelan spokesmen have
> > indicated.
>
> > According to DEBKAfile’s military sources, it consists of six to eight
> > vessels, led by the Kirov Class (Type 1144.2) Peter the Great nuclear-
> > powered heavy missile cruiser, one of the largest warships in the
> > world, which is designed to guard the rest of the group against
> > submarine and air attack.
>
> > It is armed with the Granit (NATO designated SS-N-19 Shipwreck) long
> > range, anti-ship missile system, consisting of 20 missiles. If the
> > lead missile is intercepted, one of the others moves into the lead
> > role.
>
> > Peter the Great is also equipped with 40 S-300F air defense missiles.
>
> > Other ships in the Russian flotilla are the Admiral Chabanenko , the
> > Russian navy’s most advanced guided missile anti-submarine battleship,
> > and the guided nuclear missile cruiser Pyotr Velikiy . They are
> > escorted by five smaller warships and a fuel vessel.
>
> > DEBKAfile’s military experts deduce from the makeup of the Russian
> > group that, while it is being presented as primarily defensive, in
> > fact it is the core infrastructure of an important Russian air and
> > fleet presence for shielding a potential assault deployment in the
> > event of a Kremlin decision to base one in Venezuela.
>
> >http://debka.com/headline.php?hid=5570
>
> > I'd like to see the U.S. send a full sized battle group to the
> > region, *base 2 to 4 B-1B Lancer strategic bombers in a friendly South
> > American country and have a B-2 from Whiteman AFB fly over both the
> > base where the TU-160s are and the Russian ships.
>
> > Russians need to be kept in check without escalating things too far.
> > Ronald Reagan would not have tolerated this behavior from the Soviets
> > during the 80s, without an American response. * The people in charge
> > of George W. Bush need to show some balls and confront the Russians
> > anytime, anywhere. On land, at sea, in the air.
>
> Huh? They are flying in international airspace and operating in
> international waters. It isn't illegal. The Soviets used to deploy and
> operate out of Cuba in the 70s and 80s. Where was the U.S. response to
> that?
>
> It is no different to the U.S. deploying heavy strategic bombers to
> Europe. Only a few weeks ago there was routine B-2 and B-52
> deployments to the UK.
>
> TJ


It seems to me the Russians have the most to lose here. If they
suffer a major breakdown, etc they're not going to look very
threatening.

[William Black[_1_]]

"AirRaid" > wrote in message
...

Russians need to be kept in check without escalating things too far.
Ronald Reagan would not have tolerated this behavior from the Soviets
during the 80s, without an American response.


--------------------------

He did though.

The Russians are operating in international waters.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[Raymond O'Hara]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
>
> "AirRaid" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Russians need to be kept in check without escalating things too far.
> Ronald Reagan would not have tolerated this behavior from the Soviets
> during the 80s, without an American response.
>
>
> --------------------------
>
> He did though.
>
> The Russians are operating in international waters.
>
> --
> William Black
>
>
republicans have strange rememberance of the gipper.
he cut and ran from beiruit after the barracks attack.

[Raymond O'Hara]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
>
> "AirRaid" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Russians need to be kept in check without escalating things too far.
> Ronald Reagan would not have tolerated this behavior from the Soviets
> during the 80s, without an American response.
>
>
> --------------------------
>
> He did though.
>
> The Russians are operating in international waters.
>
> --
> William Black
>
>
republicans have strange rememberance of the gipper.
he cut and ran from beiruit after the barracks attack.

[Peter Skelton]

On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:21:12 -0700 (PDT), "
> wrote:

>On Sep 10, 7:16*pm, TJ > wrote:
>> On 10 Sep, 22:27, AirRaid > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Two Russian Tu-160 strategic bombers land in Venezuela, nuclear battle
>> > cruiser on way
>>
>> > September 10, 2008, 9:57 PM (GMT+02:00)
>>
>> > The Russian defense ministry said the Tu-160 nuclear-capable, multi-
>> > mission bombers (NATO-coded Blackjack) arrived Wednesday Sept. 10 at a
>> > Venezuelan air base to take part in joint military exercises along
>> > with a Russian flotilla.
>>
>> > DEBKAfile’s military sources first disclosed on Sept. 9, that the
>> > nuclear maritime reconnaissance/anti-submarine warfare turboprop
>> > TU-142 (NATO coded Bear F, or Bear J), which can fly 6,500 km, i.e.
>> > from Venezuela to the US coast, will also be based at a Venezuelan
>> > military airfield.
>>
>> > Caracas announced that four Russian ships with almost 1,000 sailors
>> > aboard would join its navy for maneuvers on November 10-14.
>>
>> > Like the Russian air contingent, the Russian flotilla is also bigger
>> > and more formidable than Russian and Venezuelan spokesmen have
>> > indicated.
>>
>> > According to DEBKAfile’s military sources, it consists of six to eight
>> > vessels, led by the Kirov Class (Type 1144.2) Peter the Great nuclear-
>> > powered heavy missile cruiser, one of the largest warships in the
>> > world, which is designed to guard the rest of the group against
>> > submarine and air attack.
>>
>> > It is armed with the Granit (NATO designated SS-N-19 Shipwreck) long
>> > range, anti-ship missile system, consisting of 20 missiles. If the
>> > lead missile is intercepted, one of the others moves into the lead
>> > role.
>>
>> > Peter the Great is also equipped with 40 S-300F air defense missiles.
>>
>> > Other ships in the Russian flotilla are the Admiral Chabanenko , the
>> > Russian navy’s most advanced guided missile anti-submarine battleship,
>> > and the guided nuclear missile cruiser Pyotr Velikiy . They are
>> > escorted by five smaller warships and a fuel vessel.
>>
>> > DEBKAfile’s military experts deduce from the makeup of the Russian
>> > group that, while it is being presented as primarily defensive, in
>> > fact it is the core infrastructure of an important Russian air and
>> > fleet presence for shielding a potential assault deployment in the
>> > event of a Kremlin decision to base one in Venezuela.
>>
>> >http://debka.com/headline.php?hid=5570
>>
>> > I'd like to see the U.S. send a full sized battle group to the
>> > region, *base 2 to 4 B-1B Lancer strategic bombers in a friendly South
>> > American country and have a B-2 from Whiteman AFB fly over both the
>> > base where the TU-160s are and the Russian ships.
>>
>> > Russians need to be kept in check without escalating things too far.
>> > Ronald Reagan would not have tolerated this behavior from the Soviets
>> > during the 80s, without an American response. * The people in charge
>> > of George W. Bush need to show some balls and confront the Russians
>> > anytime, anywhere. On land, at sea, in the air.
>>
>> Huh? They are flying in international airspace and operating in
>> international waters. It isn't illegal. The Soviets used to deploy and
>> operate out of Cuba in the 70s and 80s. Where was the U.S. response to
>> that?
>>
>> It is no different to the U.S. deploying heavy strategic bombers to
>> Europe. Only a few weeks ago there was routine B-2 and B-52
>> deployments to the UK.
>>
>> TJ
>
>
> It seems to me the Russians have the most to lose here. If they
>suffer a major breakdown, etc they're not going to look very
>threatening.

If they have a major breakdown, the paranoid nutcases will decide
it's an excuse to hang around and immendiately **** themselves.
Then they'll demand God knows what to protect us from nothing.

Threat is in the eye of thr beholder, does not need any truth at
all behind it. Look at the Iraq situation.



Peter Skelton

[Rob Arndt[_2_]]

This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise, it
is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
War...

Rob

[Bill Kambic]

On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
> wrote:

>This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise, it
>is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
>War...

The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the American
Civil War.

What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
round of the The Great Game. If more prople studied history they
would know what they are looking at.

[Jack Linthicum]

On Sep 11, 7:24*am, Bill Kambic > wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
>
> > wrote:
> >This is only news if the West chooses to make it *news; otherwise, it
> >is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
> >War...
>
> The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the American
> Civil War.
>
> What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
> round of the The Great Game. *If more prople studied history they
> would know what they are looking at.

Yes, think of grandpop back in the 1890s, pulling his old uniform out
of the trunk, brushing it off and wearing it into town on the Fourth
of July.

[William Black[_1_]]

"Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 11, 7:24 am, Bill Kambic > wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
>
> > wrote:
> >This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise, it
> >is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
> >War...
>
> The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the American
> Civil War.
>
> What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
> round of the The Great Game. If more prople studied history they
> would know what they are looking at.

Yes, think of grandpop back in the 1890s, pulling his old uniform out
of the trunk, brushing it off and wearing it into town on the Fourth
of July.

-----------------------

Or, more to the point, the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in their
old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence Kansas.

During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida men are
being treated today.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Sep 11, 10:36*am, "William Black" >
wrote:
> "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Sep 11, 7:24 am, Bill Kambic > wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
>
> > > wrote:
> > >This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise, it
> > >is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
> > >War...
>
> > The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the American
> > Civil War.
>
> > What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
> > round of the The Great Game. If more prople studied history they
> > would know what they are looking at.
>
> Yes, think of grandpop back in the 1890s, pulling his old uniform out
> of the trunk, brushing it off and wearing it into town on the Fourth
> of July.
>
> -----------------------
>
> Or, *more to the point, *the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in their
> old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence Kansas.
>
> During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida men are
> being treated today.
>
> --
> William Black
>
>
Deservedly so. Actually, al Qaeda guys at least have the
possibility of a trial.

[Jack Linthicum]

On Sep 11, 10:47*am, " > wrote:
> On Sep 11, 10:36*am, "William Black" >
> wrote:
>
> > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> ....
> > On Sep 11, 7:24 am, Bill Kambic > wrote:
>
> > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise, it
> > > >is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
> > > >War...
>
> > > The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the American
> > > Civil War.
>
> > > What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
> > > round of the The Great Game. If more prople studied history they
> > > would know what they are looking at.
>
> > Yes, think of grandpop back in the 1890s, pulling his old uniform out
> > of the trunk, brushing it off and wearing it into town on the Fourth
> > of July.
>
> > -----------------------
>
> > Or, *more to the point, *the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in their
> > old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence Kansas.
>
> > During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida men are
> > being treated today.
>
> > --
> > William Black
>
> * * * *Deservedly so. Actually, al Qaeda guys at least have the
> possibility of a trial.

I will say that my grandparents and great grandparents lived for a
while in Jamesport Missouri. I think they would not share your opinion
of the fake colonel. He claimed he got a colonelcy in Richmond but no
one else knew about it.

[William Black[_1_]]

"Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 11, 10:47 am, " > wrote:
> On Sep 11, 10:36 am, "William Black" >
> wrote:
>
> > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > On Sep 11, 7:24 am, Bill Kambic > wrote:
>
> > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise, it
> > > >is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
> > > >War...
>
> > > The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the American
> > > Civil War.
>
> > > What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
> > > round of the The Great Game. If more prople studied history they
> > > would know what they are looking at.
>
> > Yes, think of grandpop back in the 1890s, pulling his old uniform out
> > of the trunk, brushing it off and wearing it into town on the Fourth
> > of July.
>
> > -----------------------
>
> > Or, more to the point, the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in
> > their
> > old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence
> > Kansas.
>
> > During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida men
> > are
> > being treated today.
>
> > --
> > William Black
>
> Deservedly so. Actually, al Qaeda guys at least have the
> possibility of a trial.

I will say that my grandparents and great grandparents lived for a
while in Jamesport Missouri. I think they would not share your opinion
of the fake colonel. He claimed he got a colonelcy in Richmond but no
one else knew about it.

-------------------------

Quantrill and Anderson most certainly did have commissions.

The issue of Quantrill's colonel's commission is gone into in great detail
in a book called 'the Devil Knows How to Ride' and the conclusion seems to
be that:

1. He was certainly commissioned, he is noted in several letters by men
who had no reason to admire him as having used it to avoid 'conventional'
military service for his men.

2. He led a group of regimental size with a number of officers under him.

The title 'colonel' was probably as valid as any other officer of that rank
who commanded a 'locally raised unit'.

It is interesting to note that Anderson, another 'Missouri guerrilla' who
certainly had a valid commission, this one from Sterling Price, is
referred to as 'Major Anderson' in his orders, also from Sterling Price...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[frank]

>
> Or, *more to the point, *the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in their
> old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence Kansas.
>
> During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida men are
> being treated today.
>
> --
> William Black
>
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> All these moments will be lost in time, *like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.

When KU comes to play The University of Missouri in football, there
are signs in town that say 'Burn Lawrence'. Only recently were the
Confederate flags banished from the football sidelines.

[William Black[_1_]]

"frank" > wrote in message
...

>
> Or, more to the point, the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in their
> old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence
> Kansas.
>
> During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida men
> are
> being treated today.
>

When KU comes to play The University of Missouri in football, there
are signs in town that say 'Burn Lawrence'. Only recently were the
Confederate flags banished from the football sidelines.

--------------------------------

The level of bitterness in that particular part of the American Civil War
was dreadful.

Interestingly very few of the people on either side were either
abolitionists or slave owners.

Of course some, like 'Doc Jennison', were just crooks out to line their
own nests, and some, like Anderson and his ghastly associate Archie
Clement, were probably psychopathic.

But the majority of the men involved on both side of that part of the
conflict seem to have settled down after the war, with a few obvious
exceptions like the members of the James Gang and the Younger Brothers...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[Jack Linthicum]

On Sep 11, 11:48*am, frank > wrote:
> > Or, *more to the point, *the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in their
> > old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence Kansas.
>
> > During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida men are
> > being treated today.
>
> > --
> > William Black
>
> > I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> > Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> > I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> > All these moments will be lost in time, *like icecream on the beach
> > Time for tea.
>
> When KU comes to play The University of Missouri in football, there
> are signs in town that say 'Burn Lawrence'. Only recently were the
> Confederate flags banished from the football sidelines.

That's because they are winning games, I was there when a 15-13 win
over KU was the equivalent of a Orange Bowl win.

[Jack Linthicum]

On Sep 11, 12:23*pm, "William Black" >
wrote:
> "frank" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > Or, more to the point, the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in their
> > old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence
> > Kansas.
>
> > During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida men
> > are
> > being treated today.
>
> When KU comes to play The University of Missouri in football, there
> are signs in town that say 'Burn Lawrence'. Only recently were the
> Confederate flags banished from the football sidelines.
>
> --------------------------------
>
> The level of bitterness in that particular part of the American Civil War
> was dreadful.
>
> Interestingly very few of the people on either side were either
> abolitionists or slave owners.
>
> Of course some, *like 'Doc Jennison', *were just crooks out to line their
> own nests, and some, *like Anderson and his ghastly associate Archie
> Clement, *were probably psychopathic.
>
> But the majority of the men involved on both side of that part of the
> conflict seem to have settled down after the war, *with a few obvious
> exceptions like the members of the James Gang and the Younger Brothers...
>
> --
> William Black
>
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> All these moments will be lost in time, *like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.

If you can get a copy of Inside War: The Guerrilla Conflict in
Missouri During the American Civil War by Michael Fellman it
describes some of the things that passed for war then and there. There
is a rumor/belief that Missouri determined the South not to fight on
in guerilla after Appomattox.

[eatfastnoodle]

On Sep 10, 4:27*pm, AirRaid > wrote:
>
> Russians need to be kept in check without escalating things too far.
> Ronald Reagan would not have tolerated this behavior from the Soviets
> during the 80s, without an American response. * The people in charge
> of George W. Bush need to show some balls and confront the Russians
> anytime, anywhere. On land, at sea, in the air.

Seem to me that to large chunk of American population, being dumb, aka
"optimistic", is all it needs to be a president. No wonder we have 4
presidential terms marked by dimwitted chief executive and massive
corruption and fraud in the administration.

[Raymond O'Hara]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
> ...
> On Sep 11, 10:47 am, " > wrote:
>> On Sep 11, 10:36 am, "William Black" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>> > On Sep 11, 7:24 am, Bill Kambic > wrote:
>>
>> > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
>>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > >This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise, it
>> > > >is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
>> > > >War...
>>
>> > > The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the American
>> > > Civil War.
>>
>> > > What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
>> > > round of the The Great Game. If more prople studied history they
>> > > would know what they are looking at.
>>
>> > Yes, think of grandpop back in the 1890s, pulling his old uniform out
>> > of the trunk, brushing it off and wearing it into town on the Fourth
>> > of July.
>>
>> > -----------------------
>>
>> > Or, more to the point, the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in
>> > their
>> > old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence
>> > Kansas.
>>
>> > During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida men
>> > are
>> > being treated today.
>>
>> > --
>> > William Black
>>
>> Deservedly so. Actually, al Qaeda guys at least have the
>> possibility of a trial.
>
> I will say that my grandparents and great grandparents lived for a
> while in Jamesport Missouri. I think they would not share your opinion
> of the fake colonel. He claimed he got a colonelcy in Richmond but no
> one else knew about it.
>
> -------------------------
>
> Quantrill and Anderson most certainly did have commissions.
>
> The issue of Quantrill's colonel's commission is gone into in great detail
> in a book called 'the Devil Knows How to Ride' and the conclusion seems to
> be that:
>
> 1. He was certainly commissioned, he is noted in several letters by men
> who had no reason to admire him as having used it to avoid 'conventional'
> military service for his men.
>
> 2. He led a group of regimental size with a number of officers under him.
>
> The title 'colonel' was probably as valid as any other officer of that
> rank who commanded a 'locally raised unit'.
>
> It is interesting to note that Anderson, another 'Missouri guerrilla' who
> certainly had a valid commission, this one from Sterling Price, is
> referred to as 'Major Anderson' in his orders, also from Sterling
> Price...
>
> --
> William Black
>

he might have secured a captaincy but there is nothing official to back that
up and he never commanded a regiment,

[Jack Linthicum]

On Sep 11, 2:21*pm, "Raymond O'Hara" >
wrote:
> "William Black" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
> ....
> > On Sep 11, 10:47 am, " > wrote:
> >> On Sep 11, 10:36 am, "William Black" >
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> >> ...
> >> > On Sep 11, 7:24 am, Bill Kambic > wrote:
>
> >> > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise, it
> >> > > >is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
> >> > > >War...
>
> >> > > The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the American
> >> > > Civil War.
>
> >> > > What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
> >> > > round of the The Great Game. If more prople studied history they
> >> > > would know what they are looking at.
>
> >> > Yes, think of grandpop back in the 1890s, pulling his old uniform out
> >> > of the trunk, brushing it off and wearing it into town on the Fourth
> >> > of July.
>
> >> > -----------------------
>
> >> > Or, more to the point, the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in
> >> > their
> >> > old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence
> >> > Kansas.
>
> >> > During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida men
> >> > are
> >> > being treated today.
>
> >> > --
> >> > William Black
>
> >> Deservedly so. Actually, al Qaeda guys at least have the
> >> possibility of a trial.
>
> > I will say that my grandparents and great grandparents lived for a
> > while in Jamesport Missouri. I think they would not share your opinion
> > of the fake colonel. He claimed he got a colonelcy in Richmond but no
> > one else knew about it.
>
> > -------------------------
>
> > Quantrill and Anderson most certainly did have commissions.
>
> > The issue of Quantrill's colonel's commission is gone into in great detail
> > in a book called 'the Devil Knows How to Ride' and the conclusion seems to
> > be that:
>
> > 1. *He was certainly commissioned, *he is noted in several letters by men
> > who had no reason to admire him as having used it to avoid 'conventional'
> > military service for his men.
>
> > 2. *He led a group of regimental size with a number of officers under him.
>
> > The title 'colonel' was probably as valid as any other officer of that
> > rank who commanded a 'locally raised unit'.
>
> > It is interesting to note that Anderson, *another 'Missouri guerrilla' who
> > certainly had a valid commission, *this one from Sterling Price, *is
> > referred to as 'Major Anderson' in his orders, *also from Sterling
> > Price...
>
> > --
> > William Black
>
> he might have secured a captaincy but there is nothing official to back that
> up and he never commanded a regiment,

Plus his antics made the Confederates abolish the Partisan Rangers
despite the gentlemanly success of Col. Mosby.

[Raymond O'Hara]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
>
> "frank" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>> Or, more to the point, the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in
>> their
>> old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence
>> Kansas.
>>
>> During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida men
>> are
>> being treated today.
>>
>
> When KU comes to play The University of Missouri in football, there
> are signs in town that say 'Burn Lawrence'. Only recently were the
> Confederate flags banished from the football sidelines.
>
> --------------------------------
>
> The level of bitterness in that particular part of the American Civil War
> was dreadful.
>
> Interestingly very few of the people on either side were either
> abolitionists or slave owners.
>
> Of course some, like 'Doc Jennison', were just crooks out to line their
> own nests, and some, like Anderson and his ghastly associate Archie
> Clement, were probably psychopathic.
>
> But the majority of the men involved on both side of that part of the
> conflict seem to have settled down after the war, with a few obvious
> exceptions like the members of the James Gang and the Younger Brothers...
>
> --
> William Black

the University of Richmond now plays in the Yankee Conference which is New
England based, many up here and down there are unsure about that
association.

[Raymond O'Hara]

"eatfastnoodle" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 10, 4:27 pm, AirRaid > wrote:
>
> Russians need to be kept in check without escalating things too far.
> Ronald Reagan would not have tolerated this behavior from the Soviets
> during the 80s, without an American response. The people in charge
> of George W. Bush need to show some balls and confront the Russians
> anytime, anywhere. On land, at sea, in the air.

Seem to me that to large chunk of American population, being dumb, aka
"optimistic", is all it needs to be a president. No wonder we have 4
presidential terms marked by dimwitted chief executive and massive
corruption and fraud in the administration.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

it plays well in the flyover states.
Obama was right about them "clinging to their bibles and guns". the
republicans are good at exploiting that.
It explains Palin's nomination.

[William Black[_1_]]

"Raymond O'Hara" > wrote in message
...
>
> "William Black" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> On Sep 11, 10:47 am, " > wrote:
>>> On Sep 11, 10:36 am, "William Black" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> ...
>>> > On Sep 11, 7:24 am, Bill Kambic > wrote:
>>>
>>> > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
>>>
>>> > > > wrote:
>>> > > >This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise,
>>> > > >it
>>> > > >is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
>>> > > >War...
>>>
>>> > > The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the
>>> > > American
>>> > > Civil War.
>>>
>>> > > What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
>>> > > round of the The Great Game. If more prople studied history they
>>> > > would know what they are looking at.
>>>
>>> > Yes, think of grandpop back in the 1890s, pulling his old uniform out
>>> > of the trunk, brushing it off and wearing it into town on the Fourth
>>> > of July.
>>>
>>> > -----------------------
>>>
>>> > Or, more to the point, the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in
>>> > their
>>> > old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence
>>> > Kansas.
>>>
>>> > During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida
>>> > men are
>>> > being treated today.
>>>
>>> > --
>>> > William Black
>>>
>>> Deservedly so. Actually, al Qaeda guys at least have the
>>> possibility of a trial.
>>
>> I will say that my grandparents and great grandparents lived for a
>> while in Jamesport Missouri. I think they would not share your opinion
>> of the fake colonel. He claimed he got a colonelcy in Richmond but no
>> one else knew about it.
>>
>> -------------------------
>>
>> Quantrill and Anderson most certainly did have commissions.
>>
>> The issue of Quantrill's colonel's commission is gone into in great
>> detail in a book called 'the Devil Knows How to Ride' and the conclusion
>> seems to be that:
>>
>> 1. He was certainly commissioned, he is noted in several letters by men
>> who had no reason to admire him as having used it to avoid 'conventional'
>> military service for his men.
>>
>> 2. He led a group of regimental size with a number of officers under
>> him.
>>
>> The title 'colonel' was probably as valid as any other officer of that
>> rank who commanded a 'locally raised unit'.
>>
>> It is interesting to note that Anderson, another 'Missouri guerrilla'
>> who certainly had a valid commission, this one from Sterling Price, is
>> referred to as 'Major Anderson' in his orders, also from Sterling
>> Price...
>>
>> --
>> William Black
>>
>
> he might have secured a captaincy but there is nothing official to back
> that up and he never commanded a regiment,

Both Quantrill and Anderson were undoubtedly commissioned.

Quantrill was called 'colonel' by his men and we have documentary evidence
that Anderson was considered a major by his commanding general.

A lot of people have, over the years, pretended that these men acted
without proper oversight by their government.

The extant evidence, and accounts at the time, seems to indicate that in
fact they operated as units of the confederate 'state'.

After the war it suited the men who had led the confederacy to denounce
them.

--
William Black

They said "There's no real money, do you want the standard fee or a
percentage?"

I looked at the script...
It was six weeks filming in the desert, no women, no dialogue, just men
with guns.
It was an obvious turkey, so I took the fee.

The next time I was ready.
I haven't needed to work since...

Eli Wallach on his roles in 'The Magnificent Seven' and 'The Good, The Bad
And The Ugly'

[Jack Linthicum]

On Sep 11, 11:21*am, "William Black" >
wrote:
> "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Sep 11, 10:47 am, " > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 11, 10:36 am, "William Black" >
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> > ....
> > > On Sep 11, 7:24 am, Bill Kambic > wrote:
>
> > > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise, it
> > > > >is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
> > > > >War...
>
> > > > The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the American
> > > > Civil War.
>
> > > > What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
> > > > round of the The Great Game. If more prople studied history they
> > > > would know what they are looking at.
>
> > > Yes, think of grandpop back in the 1890s, pulling his old uniform out
> > > of the trunk, brushing it off and wearing it into town on the Fourth
> > > of July.
>
> > > -----------------------
>
> > > Or, more to the point, the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in
> > > their
> > > old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence
> > > Kansas.
>
> > > During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida men
> > > are
> > > being treated today.
>
> > > --
> > > William Black
>
> > Deservedly so. Actually, al Qaeda guys at least have the
> > possibility of a trial.
>
> I will say that my grandparents and great grandparents lived for a
> while in Jamesport Missouri. I think they would not share your opinion
> of the fake colonel. He claimed he got a colonelcy in Richmond but no
> one else knew about it.
>
> -------------------------
>
> Quantrill and Anderson most certainly did have commissions.
>
> The issue of Quantrill's colonel's commission is gone into in great detail
> in a book called 'the Devil Knows How to Ride' and the conclusion seems to
> be that:
>
> 1. *He was certainly commissioned, *he is noted in several letters by men
> who had no reason to admire him as having used it to avoid 'conventional'
> military service for his men.
>
> 2. *He led a group of regimental size with a number of officers under him.
>
> The title 'colonel' was probably as valid as any other officer of that rank
> who commanded a 'locally raised unit'.
>
> It is interesting to note that Anderson, *another 'Missouri guerrilla' who
> certainly had a valid commission, *this one from Sterling Price, *is
> referred to as 'Major Anderson' in his orders, *also from Sterling Price...
>
> --
> William Black
>
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> All these moments will be lost in time, *like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.

Maybe you could give me a page for that cite.

http://books.google.com/books?id=rJNHtVsKH-gC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=the+Devil+Knows+How+to+Ride+partisan+rangers&source=web&ots=Z35xJ4wLxG&sig=vt2fe9tHk7bXn6OYUi4J9Zj4iO0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA120,M1

[Raymond O'Hara]

"Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 11, 2:21 pm, "Raymond O'Hara" >
wrote:
> "William Black" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sep 11, 10:47 am, " > wrote:
> >> On Sep 11, 10:36 am, "William Black" >
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> >> ...
> >> > On Sep 11, 7:24 am, Bill Kambic > wrote:
>
> >> > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise,
> >> > > >it
> >> > > >is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
> >> > > >War...
>
> >> > > The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the
> >> > > American
> >> > > Civil War.
>
> >> > > What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
> >> > > round of the The Great Game. If more prople studied history they
> >> > > would know what they are looking at.
>
> >> > Yes, think of grandpop back in the 1890s, pulling his old uniform out
> >> > of the trunk, brushing it off and wearing it into town on the Fourth
> >> > of July.
>
> >> > -----------------------
>
> >> > Or, more to the point, the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in
> >> > their
> >> > old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence
> >> > Kansas.
>
> >> > During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida
> >> > men
> >> > are
> >> > being treated today.
>
> >> > --
> >> > William Black
>
> >> Deservedly so. Actually, al Qaeda guys at least have the
> >> possibility of a trial.
>
> > I will say that my grandparents and great grandparents lived for a
> > while in Jamesport Missouri. I think they would not share your opinion
> > of the fake colonel. He claimed he got a colonelcy in Richmond but no
> > one else knew about it.
>
> > -------------------------
>
> > Quantrill and Anderson most certainly did have commissions.
>
> > The issue of Quantrill's colonel's commission is gone into in great
> > detail
> > in a book called 'the Devil Knows How to Ride' and the conclusion seems
> > to
> > be that:
>
> > 1. He was certainly commissioned, he is noted in several letters by men
> > who had no reason to admire him as having used it to avoid
> > 'conventional'
> > military service for his men.
>
> > 2. He led a group of regimental size with a number of officers under
> > him.
>
> > The title 'colonel' was probably as valid as any other officer of that
> > rank who commanded a 'locally raised unit'.
>
> > It is interesting to note that Anderson, another 'Missouri guerrilla'
> > who
> > certainly had a valid commission, this one from Sterling Price, is
> > referred to as 'Major Anderson' in his orders, also from Sterling
> > Price...
>
> > --
> > William Black
>
> he might have secured a captaincy but there is nothing official to back
> that
> up and he never commanded a regiment,

Plus his antics made the Confederates abolish the Partisan Rangers
despite the gentlemanly success of Col. Mosby.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mosby held a real commision and he was a bit of the army of northern
virginia.

when mosby was schedualed to surrender so many union troops and officers
showed up to get a glimpse of him he feared the yankees planned treachery.

mosby was also one of the early leaders of the "lost cause mythology
movement" alomg with john b gordon and jubal a early.

he was quite the guy.

[Raymond O'Hara]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>> he might have secured a captaincy but there is nothing official to back
>> that up and he never commanded a regiment,
>
> Both Quantrill and Anderson were undoubtedly commissioned.
>

undoubted by you. doubted by everybody else.



> Quantrill was called 'colonel' by his men and we have documentary evidence
> that Anderson was considered a major by his commanding general.
>

harlan sanders was called colonel by his men too. its a southern thing.



> A lot of people have, over the years, pretended that these men acted
> without proper oversight by their government.
>

they did operate without any oversite.
jeff davis might have been a traitor but quantrill and anderson were not the
type of men he approved of.




> The extant evidence, and accounts at the time, seems to indicate that in
> fact they operated as units of the confederate 'state'.
>

show this evidence. i've never seen it


> After the war it suited the men who had led the confederacy to denounce
> them.
>




> --
> William Black
>
> They said "There's no real money, do you want the standard fee or a
> percentage?"
>
> I looked at the script...
> It was six weeks filming in the desert, no women, no dialogue, just men
> with guns.
> It was an obvious turkey, so I took the fee.
>
> The next time I was ready.
> I haven't needed to work since...
>
> Eli Wallach on his roles in 'The Magnificent Seven' and 'The Good, The
> Bad And The Ugly'
>

[William Black[_1_]]

"Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 11, 11:21 am, "William Black" >
wrote:
> "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Sep 11, 10:47 am, " > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 11, 10:36 am, "William Black" >
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> > ...
> > > On Sep 11, 7:24 am, Bill Kambic > wrote:
>
> > > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise,
> > > > >it
> > > > >is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
> > > > >War...
>
> > > > The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the
> > > > American
> > > > Civil War.
>
> > > > What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
> > > > round of the The Great Game. If more prople studied history they
> > > > would know what they are looking at.
>
> > > Yes, think of grandpop back in the 1890s, pulling his old uniform out
> > > of the trunk, brushing it off and wearing it into town on the Fourth
> > > of July.
>
> > > -----------------------
>
> > > Or, more to the point, the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in
> > > their
> > > old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence
> > > Kansas.
>
> > > During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida
> > > men
> > > are
> > > being treated today.
>
> > > --
> > > William Black
>
> > Deservedly so. Actually, al Qaeda guys at least have the
> > possibility of a trial.
>
> I will say that my grandparents and great grandparents lived for a
> while in Jamesport Missouri. I think they would not share your opinion
> of the fake colonel. He claimed he got a colonelcy in Richmond but no
> one else knew about it.
>
> -------------------------
>
> Quantrill and Anderson most certainly did have commissions.
>
> The issue of Quantrill's colonel's commission is gone into in great detail
> in a book called 'the Devil Knows How to Ride' and the conclusion seems to
> be that:
>
> 1. He was certainly commissioned, he is noted in several letters by men
> who had no reason to admire him as having used it to avoid 'conventional'
> military service for his men.
>
> 2. He led a group of regimental size with a number of officers under him.
>
> The title 'colonel' was probably as valid as any other officer of that
> rank
> who commanded a 'locally raised unit'.
>
> It is interesting to note that Anderson, another 'Missouri guerrilla' who
> certainly had a valid commission, this one from Sterling Price, is
> referred to as 'Major Anderson' in his orders, also from Sterling Price...
>

Maybe you could give me a page for that cite.

http://books.google.com/books?id=rJNHtVsKH-gC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=the+Devil+Knows+How+to+Ride+partisan+rangers&source=web&ots=Z35xJ4wLxG&sig=vt2fe9tHk7bXn6OYUi4J9Zj4iO0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA120,M1

Can't, sorry, I no longer own the book.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[William Black[_1_]]

"Raymond O'Hara" > wrote in message
...
>
> "William Black" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>>
>>> he might have secured a captaincy but there is nothing official to back
>>> that up and he never commanded a regiment,
>>
>> Both Quantrill and Anderson were undoubtedly commissioned.
>>
>
> undoubted by you. doubted by everybody else.
>
>
>
>> Quantrill was called 'colonel' by his men and we have documentary
>> evidence that Anderson was considered a major by his commanding general.
>>
>
> harlan sanders was called colonel by his men too. its a southern thing.
>
>
>
>> A lot of people have, over the years, pretended that these men acted
>> without proper oversight by their government.
>>
>
> they did operate without any oversite.
> jeff davis might have been a traitor but quantrill and anderson were not
> the type of men he approved of.
>
>
>
>
>> The extant evidence, and accounts at the time, seems to indicate that in
>> fact they operated as units of the confederate 'state'.
>>
>
> show this evidence. i've never seen it
>

Try reading books Ray.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[Jack Linthicum]

On Sep 11, 5:50*pm, "William Black" >
wrote:
> "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Sep 11, 11:21 am, "William Black" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> ....
> > On Sep 11, 10:47 am, " > wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 11, 10:36 am, "William Black" >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> > > ...
> > > > On Sep 11, 7:24 am, Bill Kambic > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise,
> > > > > >it
> > > > > >is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
> > > > > >War...
>
> > > > > The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the
> > > > > American
> > > > > Civil War.
>
> > > > > What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
> > > > > round of the The Great Game. If more prople studied history they
> > > > > would know what they are looking at.
>
> > > > Yes, think of grandpop back in the 1890s, pulling his old uniform out
> > > > of the trunk, brushing it off and wearing it into town on the Fourth
> > > > of July.
>
> > > > -----------------------
>
> > > > Or, more to the point, the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in
> > > > their
> > > > old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence
> > > > Kansas.
>
> > > > During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida
> > > > men
> > > > are
> > > > being treated today.
>
> > > > --
> > > > William Black
>
> > > Deservedly so. Actually, al Qaeda guys at least have the
> > > possibility of a trial.
>
> > I will say that my grandparents and great grandparents lived for a
> > while in Jamesport Missouri. I think they would not share your opinion
> > of the fake colonel. He claimed he got a colonelcy in Richmond but no
> > one else knew about it.
>
> > -------------------------
>
> > Quantrill and Anderson most certainly did have commissions.
>
> > The issue of Quantrill's colonel's commission is gone into in great detail
> > in a book called 'the Devil Knows How to Ride' and the conclusion seems to
> > be that:
>
> > 1. He was certainly commissioned, he is noted in several letters by men
> > who had no reason to admire him as having used it to avoid 'conventional'
> > military service for his men.
>
> > 2. He led a group of regimental size with a number of officers under him.
>
> > The title 'colonel' was probably as valid as any other officer of that
> > rank
> > who commanded a 'locally raised unit'.
>
> > It is interesting to note that Anderson, another 'Missouri guerrilla' who
> > certainly had a valid commission, this one from Sterling Price, is
> > referred to as 'Major Anderson' in his orders, also from Sterling Price....
>
> Maybe you could give me a page for that cite.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=rJNHtVsKH-gC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=t...
>
> Can't, *sorry, *I no longer own the book.
>
> --
> William Black
>
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> All these moments will be lost in time, *like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.

I gave you the online address of the Google copy

[Jukka O. Kauppinen]

> I'd like to see...
> base 2 to 4 B-1B Lancer strategic bombers in a friendly South
> American country and have a B-2 from Whiteman AFB fly over both the
> base where the TU-160s are and the Russian ships.

So what would the point of such international incident and intentional
violations of borders be?

Make sure Venezuela buys more Russian equipment?
Alienate the Middle/South American states even more?
Create a new conflict in the Middle/South America agaist American states?

Good luck with that.

[William Black[_1_]]

"Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 11, 5:50 pm, "William Black" >
wrote:
> "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Sep 11, 11:21 am, "William Black" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > On Sep 11, 10:47 am, " > wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 11, 10:36 am, "William Black" >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> > > ...
> > > > On Sep 11, 7:24 am, Bill Kambic > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise,
> > > > > >it
> > > > > >is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
> > > > > >War...
>
> > > > > The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the
> > > > > American
> > > > > Civil War.
>
> > > > > What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
> > > > > round of the The Great Game. If more prople studied history they
> > > > > would know what they are looking at.
>
> > > > Yes, think of grandpop back in the 1890s, pulling his old uniform
> > > > out
> > > > of the trunk, brushing it off and wearing it into town on the Fourth
> > > > of July.
>
> > > > -----------------------
>
> > > > Or, more to the point, the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in
> > > > their
> > > > old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence
> > > > Kansas.
>
> > > > During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida
> > > > men
> > > > are
> > > > being treated today.
>
> > > > --
> > > > William Black
>
> > > Deservedly so. Actually, al Qaeda guys at least have the
> > > possibility of a trial.
>
> > I will say that my grandparents and great grandparents lived for a
> > while in Jamesport Missouri. I think they would not share your opinion
> > of the fake colonel. He claimed he got a colonelcy in Richmond but no
> > one else knew about it.
>
> > -------------------------
>
> > Quantrill and Anderson most certainly did have commissions.
>
> > The issue of Quantrill's colonel's commission is gone into in great
> > detail
> > in a book called 'the Devil Knows How to Ride' and the conclusion seems
> > to
> > be that:
>
> > 1. He was certainly commissioned, he is noted in several letters by men
> > who had no reason to admire him as having used it to avoid
> > 'conventional'
> > military service for his men.
>
> > 2. He led a group of regimental size with a number of officers under
> > him.
>
> > The title 'colonel' was probably as valid as any other officer of that
> > rank
> > who commanded a 'locally raised unit'.
>
> > It is interesting to note that Anderson, another 'Missouri guerrilla'
> > who
> > certainly had a valid commission, this one from Sterling Price, is
> > referred to as 'Major Anderson' in his orders, also from Sterling
> > Price...
>
> Maybe you could give me a page for that cite.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=rJNHtVsKH-gC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=t...
>
> Can't, sorry, I no longer own the book.
>

I gave you the online address of the Google copy

-------------------------------

I looked, I even asked it to download, I can't get it to open...

But I rang up the guy who has my copy and he says that the footnote on page
294 refers to Quantrill's commission and the fact that he's referred to as
'captain' in several official confederate documents.



--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[frank]

People forget there were a ton of troops and supplies tied up in
Missouri in the war. Without that, war might have been over faster.
Wasn't the nicest war either, on either side. Bloody Kansas wasn't
just an adjective. Both sides were pretty bad, once the Union came in,
lots of farms were burned, families were moved, wives were locked up
in jail (and in one case died with the building collapsed - leading to
reprisals by the Confederates).

There were numerous Civil War battles in Missouri, the entire length
and breadth of the state. Back in the days when an army moved on its
feet.

In the opening days, Bluebellies got whupped. Came from St Louis and
moved to Jefferson City, ran back.

[Raymond O'Hara]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Raymond O'Hara" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "William Black" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>>>
>>>> he might have secured a captaincy but there is nothing official to back
>>>> that up and he never commanded a regiment,
>>>
>>> Both Quantrill and Anderson were undoubtedly commissioned.
>>>
>>
>> undoubted by you. doubted by everybody else.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Quantrill was called 'colonel' by his men and we have documentary
>>> evidence that Anderson was considered a major by his commanding general.
>>>
>>
>> harlan sanders was called colonel by his men too. its a southern thing.
>>
>>
>>
>>> A lot of people have, over the years, pretended that these men acted
>>> without proper oversight by their government.
>>>
>>
>> they did operate without any oversite.
>> jeff davis might have been a traitor but quantrill and anderson were not
>> the type of men he approved of.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> The extant evidence, and accounts at the time, seems to indicate that
>>> in fact they operated as units of the confederate 'state'.
>>>
>>
>> show this evidence. i've never seen it
>>
>
> Try reading books Ray.
>
> --
> William Black
>

i have, including some on confederate partisans.

[Raymond O'Hara]

"frank" > wrote in message
...
> People forget there were a ton of troops and supplies tied up in
> Missouri in the war. Without that, war might have been over faster.
> Wasn't the nicest war either, on either side. Bloody Kansas wasn't
> just an adjective. Both sides were pretty bad, once the Union came in,
> lots of farms were burned, families were moved, wives were locked up
> in jail (and in one case died with the building collapsed - leading to
> reprisals by the Confederates).
>
> There were numerous Civil War battles in Missouri, the entire length
> and breadth of the state. Back in the days when an army moved on its
> feet.
>
> In the opening days, Bluebellies got whupped. Came from St Louis and
> moved to Jefferson City, ran back.
>


general samuel curtis would dispute your little blurb. he defeated the
traitors at every turn in Mo..

[William Black[_1_]]

"Raymond O'Hara" > wrote in message
...
>
> "William Black" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Raymond O'Hara" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "William Black" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> he might have secured a captaincy but there is nothing official to
>>>>> back that up and he never commanded a regiment,
>>>>
>>>> Both Quantrill and Anderson were undoubtedly commissioned.
>>>>
>>>
>>> undoubted by you. doubted by everybody else.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Quantrill was called 'colonel' by his men and we have documentary
>>>> evidence that Anderson was considered a major by his commanding
>>>> general.
>>>>
>>>
>>> harlan sanders was called colonel by his men too. its a southern thing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> A lot of people have, over the years, pretended that these men acted
>>>> without proper oversight by their government.
>>>>
>>>
>>> they did operate without any oversite.
>>> jeff davis might have been a traitor but quantrill and anderson were not
>>> the type of men he approved of.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> The extant evidence, and accounts at the time, seems to indicate that
>>>> in fact they operated as units of the confederate 'state'.
>>>>
>>>
>>> show this evidence. i've never seen it
>>>
>>
>> Try reading books Ray.
>>
>> --
>> William Black
>>
>
> i have, including some on confederate partisans.
>
No evidence of that so far...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

[Jack Linthicum]

On Sep 11, 8:09*pm, "William Black" >
wrote:
> "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Sep 11, 5:50 pm, "William Black" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> ....
> > On Sep 11, 11:21 am, "William Black" >
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> > ....
> > > On Sep 11, 10:47 am, " > wrote:
>
> > > > On Sep 11, 10:36 am, "William Black" >
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > "Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
>
> > > > ...
> > > > > On Sep 11, 7:24 am, Bill Kambic > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:46:02 -0700 (PDT), Rob Arndt
>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >This is only news if the West chooses to make it news; otherwise,
> > > > > > >it
> > > > > > >is really nothing extraordinary, nor will it bring back the Cold
> > > > > > >War...
>
> > > > > > The Cold War is over and is as much a part of history as the
> > > > > > American
> > > > > > Civil War.
>
> > > > > > What you see now is a resurgence of Russian Nationalism and a new
> > > > > > round of the The Great Game. If more prople studied history they
> > > > > > would know what they are looking at.
>
> > > > > Yes, think of grandpop back in the 1890s, pulling his old uniform
> > > > > out
> > > > > of the trunk, brushing it off and wearing it into town on the Fourth
> > > > > of July.
>
> > > > > -----------------------
>
> > > > > Or, more to the point, the men of Quantrill's Raiders dressing up in
> > > > > their
> > > > > old uniforms to have a reunion on the date of their raid on Lawrence
> > > > > Kansas.
>
> > > > > During the American Civil War they were treated very like al Quaida
> > > > > men
> > > > > are
> > > > > being treated today.
>
> > > > > --
> > > > > William Black
>
> > > > Deservedly so. Actually, al Qaeda guys at least have the
> > > > possibility of a trial.
>
> > > I will say that my grandparents and great grandparents lived for a
> > > while in Jamesport Missouri. I think they would not share your opinion
> > > of the fake colonel. He claimed he got a colonelcy in Richmond but no
> > > one else knew about it.
>
> > > -------------------------
>
> > > Quantrill and Anderson most certainly did have commissions.
>
> > > The issue of Quantrill's colonel's commission is gone into in great
> > > detail
> > > in a book called 'the Devil Knows How to Ride' and the conclusion seems
> > > to
> > > be that:
>
> > > 1. He was certainly commissioned, he is noted in several letters by men
> > > who had no reason to admire him as having used it to avoid
> > > 'conventional'
> > > military service for his men.
>
> > > 2. He led a group of regimental size with a number of officers under
> > > him.
>
> > > The title 'colonel' was probably as valid as any other officer of that
> > > rank
> > > who commanded a 'locally raised unit'.
>
> > > It is interesting to note that Anderson, another 'Missouri guerrilla'
> > > who
> > > certainly had a valid commission, this one from Sterling Price, is
> > > referred to as 'Major Anderson' in his orders, also from Sterling
> > > Price...
>
> > Maybe you could give me a page for that cite.
>
> >http://books.google.com/books?id=rJNHtVsKH-gC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=t...
>
> > Can't, sorry, I no longer own the book.
>
> I gave you the online address of the Google copy
>
> -------------------------------
>
> I looked, *I even asked it to download, I can't get it to open...
>
> But I rang up the guy who has my copy and he says that the footnote on page
> 294 refers to Quantrill's commission and the fact that he's referred to as
> 'captain' in several official confederate documents.
>
> --
> William Black
>
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> All these moments will be lost in time, *like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.

I wonder. No one will admit that they commissioned Quantrill at the
time, everything seems to be made up. Even a pay voucher can lie, God
knows they did for a lot of Mosby's antics and he was one of the
"good" rangers. With the abolishment of the partisan rangers I would
assume Quantrill would lose his commission whatever it was. By the
way we seem to have had this same discussion in February (which year
isn't made clear). Do a "search this group" for Quantrell/Quantrill.
"Don't be parochial"

[William Black[_1_]]

"Jack Linthicum" > wrote in message
...

I wonder. No one will admit that they commissioned Quantrill at the
time, everything seems to be made up. Even a pay voucher can lie, God
knows they did for a lot of Mosby's antics and he was one of the
"good" rangers. With the abolishment of the partisan rangers I would
assume Quantrill would lose his commission whatever it was. By the
way we seem to have had this same discussion in February (which year
isn't made clear). Do a "search this group" for Quantrell/Quantrill.
"Don't be parochial"

----------------------------

OK, two issues.

First of all we'll settle Anderson.

When he was killed his orders were found on him. In them he is referred to
as 'Major Anderson's by General Sterling Price, a man who was authorised to
raise troops and issue commissions.

Anderson was undoubtedly a commissioned officer in the forces of the
confederacy at the time of his death.

Now Quantrill.

There are certainly accounts of him swanning about in Richmond flashing a
commission he claimed was signed by Jefferson Davis himself.

He is referred to in many contemporary official confederate documents as an
officer, usually a captain.

The evidence seems to indicate that he held some sort of commission at some
point in the war but no papers have ever been found.

If he did have a commission signed by Jefferson Davis then it was in an
awful lot of people's interests that the document, and any references to
it, disappeared before the people who fancied hanging Davis got hold of it.

Sterling Price fled the country with the remnants of his army and returned
under rather odd circumstances to die in 1867. He wasn't available to be
dragged in front of a court for commissioning Anderson and legitimising his
murderous bunch.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.