Standard Cirrus C-Hook

[Randy[_2_]]

I purchased a Standard Cirrus with a bent C-Hook. This was bent when
the previous owner was putting the fuselage in the trailer. I ordered
a
new C-Hook from M&H Soaring and they sent me the new gray C-Hook
and as you can see, it is a different size.
Should I try to find another small one like the original or find a way
to install
the new one?

Any suggestions?

Pictures- http://web.me.com/rgteel/Site/Cirrus_C-Hook.html

Randy

[BT]

what does the C-Hook do?

any good machine shop should be able to replicate a new hook from the
dimensions of the old one
BT

"Randy" > wrote in message
...
>I purchased a Standard Cirrus with a bent C-Hook. This was bent when
> the previous owner was putting the fuselage in the trailer. I ordered
> a
> new C-Hook from M&H Soaring and they sent me the new gray C-Hook
> and as you can see, it is a different size.
> Should I try to find another small one like the original or find a way
> to install
> the new one?
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Pictures- http://web.me.com/rgteel/Site/Cirrus_C-Hook.html
>
> Randy

[Chris]

Hi Randy
you will not get the new hook to fit as it not only has a bearing on the
inside of the hook, it also has a bearing that runs around the outside of
the hook and ensures the hook is captive.
Given that this is the elevator drive, I would not be bodging it up, the
new hook will not fit and modifying the tailplane to accept the new hook is
a lot of work and probably not feasible anyway.
I would be talking to the Schemmp Hirth agent in your area and getting the
correct part for the job.
It is possible to bend the hook when rigging the tailplane due to incorrect
rigging technique and forcing the tailplane on to the fitting.

Chris Runeckles
Universal Plastics Western Australia



"Randy" > wrote in message
...
>I purchased a Standard Cirrus with a bent C-Hook. This was bent when
> the previous owner was putting the fuselage in the trailer. I ordered
> a
> new C-Hook from M&H Soaring and they sent me the new gray C-Hook
> and as you can see, it is a different size.
> Should I try to find another small one like the original or find a way
> to install
> the new one?
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Pictures- http://web.me.com/rgteel/Site/Cirrus_C-Hook.html
>
> Randy

[JJ Sinclair]

I have several Cirrus stabs and a fin in the bard, I'll give a look.
May just give you the part if you'll tell me how to post a picture on
ras.
JJ

Chris wrote:
> Hi Randy
> you will not get the new hook to fit as it not only has a bearing on the
> inside of the hook, it also has a bearing that runs around the outside of
> the hook and ensures the hook is captive.
> Given that this is the elevator drive, I would not be bodging it up, the
> new hook will not fit and modifying the tailplane to accept the new hook is
> a lot of work and probably not feasible anyway.
> I would be talking to the Schemmp Hirth agent in your area and getting the
> correct part for the job.
> It is possible to bend the hook when rigging the tailplane due to incorrect
> rigging technique and forcing the tailplane on to the fitting.
>
> Chris Runeckles
> Universal Plastics Western Australia
>
>
>
> "Randy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >I purchased a Standard Cirrus with a bent C-Hook. This was bent when
> > the previous owner was putting the fuselage in the trailer. I ordered
> > a
> > new C-Hook from M&H Soaring and they sent me the new gray C-Hook
> > and as you can see, it is a different size.
> > Should I try to find another small one like the original or find a way
> > to install
> > the new one?
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > Pictures- http://web.me.com/rgteel/Site/Cirrus_C-Hook.html
> >
> > Randy

[JJ Sinclair]

Chris,
What size do you need in mm ?
JJ

Chris wrote:
> Hi Randy
> you will not get the new hook to fit as it not only has a bearing on the
> inside of the hook, it also has a bearing that runs around the outside of
> the hook and ensures the hook is captive.
> Given that this is the elevator drive, I would not be bodging it up, the
> new hook will not fit and modifying the tailplane to accept the new hook is
> a lot of work and probably not feasible anyway.
> I would be talking to the Schemmp Hirth agent in your area and getting the
> correct part for the job.
> It is possible to bend the hook when rigging the tailplane due to incorrect
> rigging technique and forcing the tailplane on to the fitting.
>
> Chris Runeckles
> Universal Plastics Western Australia
>
>
>
> "Randy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >I purchased a Standard Cirrus with a bent C-Hook. This was bent when
> > the previous owner was putting the fuselage in the trailer. I ordered
> > a
> > new C-Hook from M&H Soaring and they sent me the new gray C-Hook
> > and as you can see, it is a different size.
> > Should I try to find another small one like the original or find a way
> > to install
> > the new one?
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > Pictures- http://web.me.com/rgteel/Site/Cirrus_C-Hook.html
> >
> > Randy

[Randy[_2_]]

Good Morning JJ,
I do not know how to post a picture on RAS. That is why I
added it on a mac web page.
I have scanned in a drawing from the Cirrus manual
that show the dimensions.

http://web.me.com/rgteel/Site/Cirrus_C-Hook.html



Or you can send a picture directly to me. My email
in on the webpage.



Randy



You can always compare yours to the one that I have posted
on this page.
On Sep 20, 7:38*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> I have several Cirrus stabs and *a fin in the bard, I'll give a look.
> May just give you the part if you'll tell me how to post a picture on
> ras.
> JJ

[JJ Sinclair]

I don't see the size spelled out, what I have looks to be about 20mm.
Got to run, Q's will be poppin' today and I'm coming down with an
uncontrollable desire to commit avation!
JJ

Randy wrote:
> Good Morning JJ,
> I do not know how to post a picture on RAS. That is why I
> added it on a mac web page.
> I have scanned in a drawing from the Cirrus manual
> that show the dimensions.
>
> http://web.me.com/rgteel/Site/Cirrus_C-Hook.html
>
>
>
> Or you can send a picture directly to me. My email
> in on the webpage.
>
>
>
> Randy
>
>
>
> You can always compare yours to the one that I have posted
> on this page.
> On Sep 20, 7:38�am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> > I have several Cirrus stabs and �a fin in the bard, I'll give a look.
> > May just give you the part if you'll tell me how to post a picture on
> > ras.
> > JJ

[John Galloway[_1_]]

May I recommend that you make sure that you continue to comply with the
1970 Tech Note 278-2 for the Std Cirrus both for the hook and the bearing.
See:

http://www.schempp-hirth.com/index.php?id=30&L=1

The elevator connection for the Std Cirrus is idiosyncratic to rig, not
difficult to mis-connect (in my hands), and requires careful checking
before flight. Not a place for second hand or non-standard parts.

John Galloway


At 14:51 20 September 2008, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>I don't see the size spelled out, what I have looks to be about 20mm.
>Got to run, Q's will be poppin' today and I'm coming down with an
>uncontrollable desire to commit avation!
>JJ
>
>Randy wrote:
>> Good Morning JJ,
>> I do not know how to post a picture on RAS. That is why I
>> added it on a mac web page.
>> I have scanned in a drawing from the Cirrus manual
>> that show the dimensions.
>>
>> http://web.me.com/rgteel/Site/Cirrus_C-Hook.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Or you can send a picture directly to me. My email
>> in on the webpage.
>>
>>
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>>
>> You can always compare yours to the one that I have posted
>> on this page.
>> On Sep 20, 7:38=EF=BF=BDam, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>> > I have several Cirrus stabs and =EF=BF=BDa fin in the bard, I'll
give
>a=
> look.
>> > May just give you the part if you'll tell me how to post a picture
on
>> > ras.
>> > JJ
>

[Randy[_2_]]

John,
Thanks for the link for the ADs and Technical Notes.
It is a great site.

This glider has been complied with for the the 1970 Tech Note 278-2.
The C-Hook is the same one shown in this Tech Note.

I have not been able to anything that mentions using this larger
hook and bearing.



On Sep 20, 3:52*pm, John Galloway > wrote:
> May I recommend that you make sure that you continue to comply with the
> 1970 Tech Note 278-2 for the Std Cirrus both for the hook and the bearing..
> *See:
>
> http://www.schempp-hirth.com/index.php?id=30&L=1
>
> The elevator connection for the Std Cirrus is idiosyncratic to rig, not
> difficult to mis-connect (in my hands), and requires careful checking
> before flight. *Not a place for second hand or non-standard parts. *
>
> John Galloway

[Frank Whiteley]

Any chance the larger is for a Cirrus77?

Frank

On Sep 20, 7:12*pm, Randy > wrote:
> John,
> Thanks for the link for the ADs and Technical Notes.
> It is a great site.
>
> This glider has been complied with for the the 1970 Tech Note 278-2.
> The C-Hook is the same one shown in this Tech Note.
>
> I have not been able to anything that mentions using this larger
> hook and bearing.
>
> On Sep 20, 3:52*pm, John Galloway > wrote:
>
> > May I recommend that you make sure that you continue to comply with the
> > 1970 Tech Note 278-2 for the Std Cirrus both for the hook and the bearing.
> > *See:
>
> >http://www.schempp-hirth.com/index.php?id=30&L=1
>
> > The elevator connection for the Std Cirrus is idiosyncratic to rig, not
> > difficult to mis-connect (in my hands), and requires careful checking
> > before flight. *Not a place for second hand or non-standard parts. *
>
> > John Galloway

[Chris]

There's a chance that the larger part suits a Nimbus 2 as this is the same
set up as the the Std Cirrus but larger.
The Cirrus 75 uses a different system all together to retain and drive the
horizontal stabilizer using square drive dogs and a clevis pin arrangement
in the top of the fin.

Chris Runeckles

"Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
...
Any chance the larger is for a Cirrus77?

Frank

On Sep 20, 7:12 pm, Randy > wrote:
> John,
> Thanks for the link for the ADs and Technical Notes.
> It is a great site.
>
> This glider has been complied with for the the 1970 Tech Note 278-2.
> The C-Hook is the same one shown in this Tech Note.
>
> I have not been able to anything that mentions using this larger
> hook and bearing.
>
> On Sep 20, 3:52 pm, John Galloway > wrote:
>
> > May I recommend that you make sure that you continue to comply with the
> > 1970 Tech Note 278-2 for the Std Cirrus both for the hook and the
> > bearing.
> > See:
>
> >http://www.schempp-hirth.com/index.php?id=30&L=1
>
> > The elevator connection for the Std Cirrus is idiosyncratic to rig, not
> > difficult to mis-connect (in my hands), and requires careful checking
> > before flight. Not a place for second hand or non-standard parts.
>
> > John Galloway

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sep 20, 9:08*pm, "Chris" > wrote:
> There's a chance that the larger part suits a Nimbus 2 as this is the same
> set up as the the Std Cirrus but larger.
> The Cirrus 75 uses a different system all together to retain and drive the
> horizontal stabilizer using square drive dogs and a clevis pin arrangement
> in the top of the fin.
>
> Chris Runeckles
>
> "Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> Any chance the larger is for a Cirrus77?
>
> Frank
>
> On Sep 20, 7:12 pm, Randy > wrote:
>
> > John,
> > Thanks for the link for the ADs and Technical Notes.
> > It is a great site.
>
> > This glider has been complied with for the the 1970 Tech Note 278-2.
> > The C-Hook is the same one shown in this Tech Note.
>
> > I have not been able to anything that mentions using this larger
> > hook and bearing.
>
> > On Sep 20, 3:52 pm, John Galloway > wrote:
>
> > > May I recommend that you make sure that you continue to comply with the
> > > 1970 Tech Note 278-2 for the Std Cirrus both for the hook and the
> > > bearing.
> > > See:
>
> > >http://www.schempp-hirth.com/index.php?id=30&L=1
>
> > > The elevator connection for the Std Cirrus is idiosyncratic to rig, not
> > > difficult to mis-connect (in my hands), and requires careful checking
> > > before flight. Not a place for second hand or non-standard parts.
>
> > > John Galloway

Yeah, after I posted I thought about Nimbus 2, with all flying tail
like the Cirrus.

Frank

[Bruce Hoult]

On Sep 21, 6:11*pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> Yeah, after I posted I thought about Nimbus 2, with all flying tail
> like the Cirrus.

And the Janus.

[BT]

"Bruce Hoult" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 21, 6:11 pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> Yeah, after I posted I thought about Nimbus 2, with all flying tail
> like the Cirrus.

>And the Janus.

Our Janus C does not have an all flying tail. and I do not remember this "C
Hook" on installation.
BT

[Bruce Hoult]

On Sep 22, 4:00*am, "BT" > wrote:
> "Bruce Hoult" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Sep 21, 6:11 pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> > Yeah, after I posted I thought about Nimbus 2, with all flying tail
> > like the Cirrus.
> >And the Janus.
>
> Our Janus C does not have an all flying tail. and I do not remember this "C
> Hook" on installation.

That would be because, unlike the "Janus", the "Janus C" does not have
an all flying tail.

I don't know what mechanism is inside as I haven't derigged either of
the Janus's I've flown (ZK-GLM and ZK-GSH).

[Gavin Short[_2_]]

Speak to your Schempp-Hirth agent of Schempp-Hirth themselves.
Schempp-Hirth were extremely accomodating with the tailplane bush
replacement kit for my Std Cirrus (and later winglets). Almost all of
their staff speak English

Also see the Std Cirrus website and its Forum - over 330 owners there.
http://www.standardcirrus.org/

For the tailplane diagrams from the home page select
'issues' from the radio buttons just under the web page title
then select
'elevator'

Bottom line - fit the right part and ensure that it is fitted/adjusted
correctly - control surface movement/measurements iaw the flight manual.

Good luck.


Gavin
Std Cirrus, CNN now G-SCNN, #173
LSV Viersen, Keiheuvel, Belgium

[Gavin Short[_2_]]

Randy,

I see you have already been active on the Std Cirrus forum and have taken
my advice before I even posted it!

My only observaton is that you appear to be quoting a US registration
number. The number that Schempp-Hirth (and tehir agent) will be
interested in will be the glider serial number which is stated in the
glider log book/flight manual and on the small aluminium Schempp-Hirth
registration plate on the inside of the fuselage. In German is is listed
as 'Bau Nr.' and then 3 digits (possibly 2 if yours is a very early
one). Grob and some other manufactures bulit Std Cirruses under licence
so if Schempp-Hirth did not make your glider you need to tell them that.

Be aware that the wings and tailpane will also have 'Bau Nr.' on a very
small plate which may be different from the fuselage/verall glider serial
number.

Gavin

At 10:07 22 September 2008, Gavin Short wrote:
>Speak to your Schempp-Hirth agent of Schempp-Hirth themselves.
>Schempp-Hirth were extremely accomodating with the tailplane bush
>replacement kit for my Std Cirrus (and later winglets). Almost all of
>their staff speak English
>
>Also see the Std Cirrus website and its Forum - over 330 owners there.
>http://www.standardcirrus.org/
>
>For the tailplane diagrams from the home page select
>'issues' from the radio buttons just under the web page title
>then select
>'elevator'
>
>Bottom line - fit the right part and ensure that it is fitted/adjusted
>correctly - control surface movement/measurements iaw the flight manual.
>
>Good luck.
>
>
>Gavin
>Std Cirrus, CNN now G-SCNN, #173
>LSV Viersen, Keiheuvel, Belgium
>

[Randy[_2_]]

Gavin,
The Serial number for this glider is #9. This is what is in the
cockpit, aircraft log books,
original Bill of Sale and on the Airworthiness Certificate. It was
built in 1969.

[Randy[_2_]]

The bearing size for my original C-Hook is approximately 14.15mm.
The newer/larger bearing size is 19.00mm

Randy


On Sep 20, 7:42*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> Chris,
> What size do you need in mm ?
> JJ

[JJ Sinclair]

Hmmmm,
All 3 of the birds I have in the barn are 19mm, you may have a problem
in getting SH to come up with what was an early change to the design.
I'll take a look at the elevator side to see how much of a hassle it
would be to change both sides of the hook-up.

Another poster said you shouldn't consider "used parts". My response
would be; What do you think a 39 year old sailplane is, if not a
collection of used parts flying in close formation?
JJ

Randy wrote:
> The bearing size for my original C-Hook is approximately 14.15mm.
> The newer/larger bearing size is 19.00mm
>
> Randy
>
>
> On Sep 20, 7:42�am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> > Chris,
> > What size do you need in mm ?
> > JJ

[John Galloway[_1_]]

As the "other poster" the main thing I was saying was to comply with the
design Tech Note which would mean not going to a non-standard bearing size
or specification. As for "used parts" it depends on whether you can be
sure that they were the correct parts in the first place and what has
happened to them since new.

John Galloway



At 12:37 23 September 2008, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>Hmmmm,
>All 3 of the birds I have in the barn are 19mm, you may have a problem
>in getting SH to come up with what was an early change to the design.
>I'll take a look at the elevator side to see how much of a hassle it
>would be to change both sides of the hook-up.
>
>Another poster said you shouldn't consider "used parts". My response
>would be; What do you think a 39 year old sailplane is, if not a
>collection of used parts flying in close formation?
>JJ
>
>Randy wrote:
>> The bearing size for my original C-Hook is approximately 14.15mm.
>> The newer/larger bearing size is 19.00mm
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>> On Sep 20, 7:42=EF=BF=BDam, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>> > Chris,
>> > What size do you need in mm ?
>> > JJ
>

[JJ Sinclair]

Randy,
It will take some glass work to swap out both sides of your elevator
drive, ie change early SH 14.15mm connections to later SH 19mm drive
mechanisms. As with any "used parts", they must be inspected by a
qualified person to determine damage, wear and corrosion. These parts
have been stored in my barn for about 20 years, ever sence their
rather spectacular 'last flight'. You could change to a "used"
elevator with 19mm drive, but that would be over-kill to solve a
rather simple problem. The C-hook is nothing more than a 10mm bolt
with the "C" fitting welded on top of it. Recommend you take both new
and old fittings to a good machine shop and have them cut the C
portion off both and then weld the new 10mm bolt section onto the old
14.15 C-hook. Before removing the C-hook from your Cirrus, be sure to
measure the exact distance from the top of the push-rod to the bottom
of the C in the C-hook. When installing the new part, screw it in
until the distance is exactly the same. Then tighten the jam-nut and
check the elevator throw against the FM/MM.
Have fun,
JJ

Randy wrote:
> The bearing size for my original C-Hook is approximately 14.15mm.
> The newer/larger bearing size is 19.00mm
>
> Randy
>
>
> On Sep 20, 7:42�am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> > Chris,
> > What size do you need in mm ?
> > JJ

[Gavin Short[_2_]]

At 20:17 22 September 2008, Randy wrote:
>Gavin,
>The Serial number for this glider is #9. This is what is in the
>cockpit, aircraft log books,
>original Bill of Sale and on the Airworthiness Certificate. It was
>built in 1969.
>
>

Randy,

I am impressed. I thought the chances of you having a single digit serial
number was so low that I didn't mention it.

Notwithstanding the other advice you have been given I am sure
Schempp-Hirth will support/come up with a suitable way ahead. When I
visited the factory in the summer some of the most interesting work was
being done by some of the retired workers. They are allowed to use all
teh factory's facilities and work on projects that are not financially
viable for good causes (local clubs etc). I saw a Std Cirrus that had
gone through a hedge and had its wings ripped off. The central metal
'cage' in teh fuselage had been completely rebuilt. Another set of
wings was being offered up. Also in the crash the tail boom had broken
and the tail written off. The team were grafting on a Nimbus 2 tail (if
recall correctly).

So a sorting out an early C hook to match the early size tail plane
bearing should be straight forward.

Good luck.

I am just wrestling with the question as to whether to fit a transponder
or not this winter... crowded skies in this part of Europe.




Gavin
Std Cirrus, CNN now G-SCNN, #173
LSV Viersen, Keiheuvel, Belgium

[Bruce]

Mines a collection of ABused spare parts flying in generally tight formation.
For what it is worth my 1970 Std Cirrus has the smaller (14.15mm?) "C" hook, and I replaced it via the agent with no
problem last year. The reason for replacement was wear - abrasion of the hook from all the dust over 38 years.

Serial number #57 - I think they changed the size when they went to the "B" fuselage on serial number 158.

Bruce

JJ Sinclair wrote:
> Hmmmm,
> All 3 of the birds I have in the barn are 19mm, you may have a problem
> in getting SH to come up with what was an early change to the design.
> I'll take a look at the elevator side to see how much of a hassle it
> would be to change both sides of the hook-up.
>
> Another poster said you shouldn't consider "used parts". My response
> would be; What do you think a 39 year old sailplane is, if not a
> collection of used parts flying in close formation?
> JJ
>
> Randy wrote:
>> The bearing size for my original C-Hook is approximately 14.15mm.
>> The newer/larger bearing size is 19.00mm
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>> On Sep 20, 7:42�am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>>> Chris,
>>> What size do you need in mm ?
>>> JJ

[Randy[_2_]]

I am having a new C-Hook made by the Factory Engineers.
This way I will sleep better after I sell this glider.

Randy

Here is a note I received today the from factory engineer.

"The bigger C-Hook for the Standard Cirrus elevator is for the
Standard Cirri without the TN 278-25...these Standard Cirri
have still the original bearing in the elevator.
But in Germany the Technical ote 278-25 was mandatory....
so maybe this was the same in the US. With the TN 278-25
the bearing will be replaced by messing hubs....and then the
C-Hook has to be smaller. So i think, that you will need the
smaller one.

Please let me know, if Carsten should send you the smaller one...
or talk with Carsten by yourself.

Best regards and greetings to everybody,"

Christoph

[C Koenig]

S/N 36 also has the smaller hook.

[Papa3]

On Sep 22, 4:17*pm, Randy > wrote:
> Gavin,
> The Serial number for this glider is #9. This is what is in the
> cockpit, aircraft log books,
> original Bill of Sale and on the Airworthiness Certificate. It was
> built in 1969.

Randy,

Does nothing to help you with your issue, but, did you know that you
have the Standard Cirrus from the famous Polars of 8 article by Paul
Bikle? I was just sitting down to some "meditation" time in the
reading room when I glanced at one of the tables and saw serial #9
(N184N). It in the June 1971 issue of Soaring

Erik Mann
LS8-18 P3