need for dial altimeter?

[Brad[_2_]]

I am in the process of designing the instrument panel/layout for my
HP-24. Still a ways to go before I will need it, but it is raining out
and my CAD program is running and so is my
imagination..........so.............I was reading about the new Tasman
Data Module on Paul R's website and see that it provides pressure
altitude.

I will be using a GPS to run my PDA, that gives GPS altitude, if I use
the Tasman vario and data-module package, would I really need a dial
altimeter?

Thanks,
Brad

[Paul Remde]

Hi Brad,

I believe you will still need a certified altimeter in your glider.

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

"Brad" > wrote in message
...
>I am in the process of designing the instrument panel/layout for my
> HP-24. Still a ways to go before I will need it, but it is raining out
> and my CAD program is running and so is my
> imagination..........so.............I was reading about the new Tasman
> Data Module on Paul R's website and see that it provides pressure
> altitude.
>
> I will be using a GPS to run my PDA, that gives GPS altitude, if I use
> the Tasman vario and data-module package, would I really need a dial
> altimeter?
>
> Thanks,
> Brad

[Jim Logajan]

"Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi Brad,
>
> I believe you will still need a certified altimeter in your glider.

If it is being built in the U.S. under FAA amateur built regulations, then
I believe none of the instruments need to be certified.

>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
>
> "Brad" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I am in the process of designing the instrument panel/layout for my
>> HP-24. Still a ways to go before I will need it, but it is raining out
>> and my CAD program is running and so is my
>> imagination..........so.............I was reading about the new Tasman
>> Data Module on Paul R's website and see that it provides pressure
>> altitude.
>>
>> I will be using a GPS to run my PDA, that gives GPS altitude, if I use
>> the Tasman vario and data-module package, would I really need a dial
>> altimeter?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brad
>
>
>

[Brad[_2_]]

yes, this will be an Experimental/Amateur built CofA.

I think I remember Danny Howell saying that the instrumentation in the
Lighthawk was going to be just a Flytec hang gliding MFD.

It would be nice not to use up panel space for a dial altimeter, but
on the other hand, my eyes aren't as good as they used to be either,
and the 3.125" altimeter is very easy to read.

ahhhh................descisions!

Brad


On Sep 25, 3:58*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> > Hi Brad,
>
> > I believe you will still need a certified altimeter in your glider.
>
> If it is being built in the U.S. under FAA amateur built regulations, then
> I believe none of the instruments need to be certified.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Paul Remde
> > Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
> >http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
>
> > "Brad" > wrote in message
> ....
> >>I am in the process of designing the instrument panel/layout for my
> >> HP-24. Still a ways to go before I will need it, but it is raining out
> >> and my CAD program is running and so is my
> >> imagination..........so.............I was reading about the new Tasman
> >> Data Module on Paul R's website and see that it provides pressure
> >> altitude.
>
> >> I will be using a GPS to run my PDA, that gives GPS altitude, if I use
> >> the Tasman vario and data-module package, would I really need a dial
> >> altimeter?
>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Brad- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[BT]

If you are redesigning the panel on a the HP-24 that is already certificated
you "may need to" look at the original certification papers and see what is
required or stated for certification. You will need to meet the original
certification requirements.

If the Tasman data module reports pressure altitude and can be adjusted
based on local altimeter settings like a standard altimeter.. a dial
altimeter may not be required. But.. will it still work if you loose
electrical power? Best to put in a small diameter mechanical altimeter as a
back up. You'll have a mechanical vario as a back up in case of electrical
problems won't you? Why not an altimeter.

BT


"Brad" > wrote in message
...
>I am in the process of designing the instrument panel/layout for my
> HP-24. Still a ways to go before I will need it, but it is raining out
> and my CAD program is running and so is my
> imagination..........so.............I was reading about the new Tasman
> Data Module on Paul R's website and see that it provides pressure
> altitude.
>
> I will be using a GPS to run my PDA, that gives GPS altitude, if I use
> the Tasman vario and data-module package, would I really need a dial
> altimeter?
>
> Thanks,
> Brad

[TXBill]

"Brad" > wrote

> yes, this will be an Experimental/Amateur built CofA.
>
>I think I remember Danny Howell saying that the instrumentation in the
>Lighthawk was going to be just a Flytec hang gliding MFD.
>
>It would be nice not to use up panel space for a dial altimeter, but
>on the other hand, my eyes aren't as good as they used to be either,
>and the 3.125" altimeter is very easy to read.
>
>ahhhh................descisions!
>
>Brad

Wouldn't a glass-cockpit soaring instrument, say something like the new
ClearNav from NK, provide even better situational awareness if it had an
airspeed strip down the right edge and an altitude strip down the left edge?
How about adding "altitude required for next waypoint" and "speed to fly"
indicators to those strips?

I'd sure like to have them....but, then, I'd like to have a horizon, too.
And a G-meter strip next to the airspeed strip. Oh, and how about a vario
strip next to the altitude strip? With real-time and average indicators?
Maybe a voltmeter? A compass? Synthetic 3D terrain view? Thermal markers?
What else do y'all think might be useful?

Sounds like a whole new class of instrument, an "ESIS" or "Electronic
Soaring Information System". Put all that on a 12inch-diagonal daylight
visible screen and the only "steam guages" I'd have in the cockpit would be
a compass and 57mm airspeed indicator. Just in case.

Hmm, sounds like an idea for a future "Soaring Tech" article.....

See you on the porch,

- Bill




--
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[cfinn]

All kinds of good ideas. You may want to consider installing an EFIS.
The Dynon D10A fits in an 80mm hole. You get the full six pack plus!
It has an altimeter, airspeed, vertical speed, DG, T&B, attitude, OAT,
true airspeed, compass, HSI, and angle of attack. If you have a little
more panel room, you could consider an MGL Engima EFIS. It has a
larger screen and all of the above plus GPS and a moving map display.
The nice thing about the MGL is that it can display 9 different
screens - that you can create and edit yourself. Now you can create
the moving map display with airspeed and angle of attack on the left,
altimeter and vertical speed on the right, and compass at the bottom.
If you're doing a wave flight and get caught in clouds or want to file
IFR, select another screen that has the six pack in the upper left, an
HSI in the upper right, and a moving map display on the lower half.

Both units supply altitude encoding for a transponder. Also they
weight less than the instruments they replace. The Dynon has the
option of installing an internal backup battery that will run the
system for two hours. The MGL supports an external backup battery. A
small 2AH battery would run it for two hours.

If you want to take a look, the link to Dynon is
http://dynonavionics.com/docs/D10A_intro.html. The link to MGL is
http://www.mglavionics.com/html/enigma.html.

Charlie

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Sep 25, 6:07*pm, "BT" > wrote:

> If you are redesigning the panel on a the HP-24
> that is already certificated... You will need to meet
> the original certification requirements...

Badgers? We don't got to show you no stinking badgers.

Thanks, Bob K.

[JJ Sinclair]

On the last home-built I regestered, the federallies required a
mechanical airspeed, altimeter and compass........nothing else. But I
have observed that the panel I am now flying has altitude displayed
all over the place, in two GPS's, in the SN-10 and in the transponder.
The large altimeter takes up a lot of space and provides the least
important info..........................we can all estimate our
altitude for landing, can't we? The rest of the time its just nice to
know info.
JJ

Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> On Sep 25, 6:07�pm, "BT" > wrote:
>
> > If you are redesigning the panel on a the HP-24
> > that is already certificated... You will need to meet
> > the original certification requirements...
>
> Badgers? We don't got to show you no stinking badgers.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

[John Smith]

JJ Sinclair wrote:

> On the last home-built I regestered, the federallies required a
> mechanical airspeed, altimeter and compass........nothing else. But I
> have observed that the panel I am now flying has altitude displayed
> all over the place, in two GPS's, in the SN-10 and in the transponder.
> The large altimeter takes up a lot of space and provides the least
> important info..........................we can all estimate our
> altitude for landing, can't we? The rest of the time its just nice to
> know info.

Except when you're flying in the among controlled airspace, where
neither GPS altitude (geometric) nor transponder altitude (QNE) do you
any good. Loggers usually can give you QNH altitude, provided you set
them correctly and your battery isn't flat.

[Peter Purdie[_4_]]

Transponders give Flight Level (assuming they are working properly), so
will give the altitude ATC are intereted in. That's how they know what
FL you are at when not talking to them.

At 12:52 26 September 2008, John Smith wrote:
>JJ Sinclair wrote:
>
>> On the last home-built I regestered, the federallies required a
>> mechanical airspeed, altimeter and compass........nothing else. But I
>> have observed that the panel I am now flying has altitude displayed
>> all over the place, in two GPS's, in the SN-10 and in the
transponder.
>> The large altimeter takes up a lot of space and provides the least
>> important info..........................we can all estimate our
>> altitude for landing, can't we? The rest of the time its just nice to
>> know info.
>
>Except when you're flying in the among controlled airspace, where
>neither GPS altitude (geometric) nor transponder altitude (QNE) do you
>any good. Loggers usually can give you QNH altitude, provided you set
>them correctly and your battery isn't flat.
>

[Eric Greenwell]

Peter Purdie wrote:
>>> The large altimeter takes up a lot of space and provides the least
>>> important info..........................we can all estimate our
>>> altitude for landing, can't we? The rest of the time its just nice to
>>> know info.
>> Except when you're flying in the among controlled airspace, where
>> neither GPS altitude (geometric) nor transponder altitude (QNE) do you
>> any good. Loggers usually can give you QNH altitude, provided you set
>> them correctly and your battery isn't flat.
>>
> Transponders give Flight Level (assuming they are working properly),
> so will give the altitude ATC are intereted in. That's how they
> know what FL you are at when not talking to them.

The pilot still needs to know msl altitude, because that's how the
airspace is designated at 18,000' and below in the USA. Also, elevations
(airports, mountains, obstructions, etc) use msl, and other gliders and
aircraft will report their altitudes in msl.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[5Z]

On Sep 26, 7:52*am, Peter Purdie > wrote:
> Transponders give Flight Level (assuming they are working properly), so
> will give the altitude ATC are intereted in. *That's how they know what
> FL you are at when not talking to them.

The controller see your transponder altitude CORRECTED for the local
pressure. So don't give them the number off the transponder display
unless the current pressure is 29.92

That's why the altimeter must be calibrated when you calibrate the
transponder. You must be able to set the altimeter to the current
(not what it was several hours or hundreds of miles away) before
talking to ATC, and that is why they will give you an altimeter
setting on initial contact unless you indicate you have current ATIS
info.

-Tom

[bumper]

"TXBill" > wrote in message
. ..

>
> Wouldn't a glass-cockpit soaring instrument, say something like the new
> ClearNav from NK, provide even better situational awareness if it had an
> airspeed strip down the right edge and an altitude strip down the left
> edge? How about adding "altitude required for next waypoint" and "speed to
> fly" indicators to those strips?
>
> I'd sure like to have them....but, then, I'd like to have a horizon, too.
> And a G-meter strip next to the airspeed strip. Oh, and how about a vario
> strip next to the altitude strip? With real-time and average indicators?
> Maybe a voltmeter? A compass? Synthetic 3D terrain view? Thermal markers?
> What else do y'all think might be useful?
>
> Sounds like a whole new class of instrument, an "ESIS" or "Electronic
> Soaring Information System". Put all that on a 12inch-diagonal daylight
> visible screen and the only "steam guages" I'd have in the cockpit would
> be a compass and 57mm airspeed indicator. Just in case.
>
> Hmm, sounds like an idea for a future "Soaring Tech" article.....
>
> See you on the porch,
>
> - Bill


All well an' good, but to gain wide acceptance it needs to be energy
efficient with battery back-up for at least 5 hours on two AA cells.

bumper
zz
Minden

[John Smith]

Peter Purdie wrote:

> Transponders give Flight Level (assuming they are working properly), so
> will give the altitude ATC are intereted in. That's how they know what
> FL you are at when not talking to them.

There are places in the world where airspace structure is pretty complex
and where you must know your QNH altitude to stay clear of airspaces,
regardless of ATC.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 26, 9:43*am, 5Z > wrote:
> On Sep 26, 7:52*am, Peter Purdie > wrote:
>
> > Transponders give Flight Level (assuming they are working properly), so
> > will give the altitude ATC are intereted in. *That's how they know what
> > FL you are at when not talking to them.
>
> The controller see your transponder altitude CORRECTED for the local
> pressure. *So don't give them the number off the transponder display
> unless the current pressure is 29.92
>
> That's why the altimeter must be calibrated when you calibrate the
> transponder. *You must be able to set the altimeter to the current
> (not what it was several hours or hundreds of miles away) before
> talking to ATC, and that is why they will give you an altimeter
> setting on initial contact unless you indicate you have current ATIS
> info.
>
> -Tom

Actually this is a common misconception, (one of several reported
recently in the Safety Corner in Soaring magazine). The encoder/
transponder/altimeter system is checked as a part of an install and
you must also do this if the static system is touched during
maintenance. Subsequent checks for aircraft operating VFR are only
required to test the transponder RF/signal properties and do not need
to check the altitude calibration. IFR calibration do. See FAR 91.413
appendix F (RF/signal properties only) and Appendix E (install/static
maintenance and IFR checks).

Back to the original question, I would not want to fly any aircraft
without the ability to reliably (i.e. when the battery dies) know and
be able to report pressure altitude.

Darryl

[JJ Sinclair]

> Back to the original question, I would not want to fly any aircraft
> without the ability to reliably (i.e. when the battery dies) know and
> be able to report pressure altitude.
>
> Darryl

If your battery dies, wouldn't you lose your ability to report
anything to anybody?

I'm not suggesting we fly around without an altitude readout of some
kind, but does it have to be the big, old 80mm round dial? Why can't I
use the pressure altitude displayed in double height on the home page
of my SN-10. Keep the black cursor on it, so my altitude can be read
at a glance. If I should have the SN-10 on another page, I can always
read pressure altitude to the nearest 100 feet off my transponder. If
for some reason I'm unable to use any of the above, I can always read
pressure altitude off the GPS (model 20).
Most of us have two batteries so we can switch if the primary goes
dead.
JJ

[John Smith]

JJ Sinclair wrote:

> I'm not suggesting we fly around without an altitude readout of some
> kind, but does it have to be the big, old 80mm round dial? Why can't I

No it hasn't to be 80mm, mine is 57mm. Aside from this, yes it has to:
More than once I was happy to be able to continue my flight under a
class C ceiling despite of two flat batteries.

Besides, many contries reqire gliders to be equipped with a certificated
altimeter.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 27, 7:51*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> > Back to the original question, I would not want to fly any aircraft
> > without the ability to reliably (i.e. when the battery dies) know and
> > be able to report pressure altitude.
>
> > Darryl
>
> If your battery dies, wouldn't you lose your ability to report
> anything to anybody?
>
> I'm not suggesting we fly around without an altitude readout of some
> kind, but does it have to be the big, old 80mm round dial? Why can't I
> use the pressure altitude displayed in double height on the home page
> of my SN-10. Keep the black cursor on it, so my altitude can be read
> at a glance. If I should have the SN-10 on another page, I can always
> read pressure altitude to the nearest 100 feet off my transponder. If
> for some reason I'm unable to use any of the above, I can always read
> pressure altitude off the GPS (model 20).
> Most of us have two batteries so we can switch if the primary goes
> dead.
> JJ

Yes, assuming the backup handheld dies as well, then I'd just be
talking to myself.

I fly a certified glider so I have no choice but to follow the
equipment list. You tell us J.J. what is the requirements for
homebuilt/experimental and racing/exhibition/experimental.

Darryl

[JJ Sinclair]

>
> I fly a certified glider so I have no choice but to follow the
> equipment list. You tell us J.J. what is the requirements for
> homebuilt/experimental and racing/exhibition/experimental.
>
> Darryl

Alas, yes they both require old fashioned dial altimiters. With todays
glass cockpits, I'm wondering if this requirement isn't outdated?
JJ

[Andy[_1_]]

On Sep 27, 2:57*pm, JJ Sinclair > wrote:

> Alas, yes they both require old fashioned dial altimiters. With todays
> glass cockpits, I'm wondering if this requirement isn't outdated?
> JJ

JJ - Can you, or anyone else, reference a regulation on altimeters
that includes the word DIAL.

91.205.b.2) requires for VFR flight an "altimeter"

91.205.d.5) requires for IFR flight "a sensitive altimeter adjustable
for barometric pressure".

Neither requires a dial and neither requires a mechanical instrument.

Andy

[SoaringXCellence]

On Sep 27, 3:51*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Sep 27, 2:57*pm, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > Alas, yes they both require old fashioned dial altimiters. With todays
> > glass cockpits, I'm wondering if this requirement isn't outdated?
> > JJ
>
> JJ - Can you, or anyone else, reference a regulation on altimeters
> that includes the word DIAL.
>
> 91.205.b.2) *requires for VFR flight an "altimeter"
>
> 91.205.d.5) requires for IFR flight "a sensitive altimeter adjustable
> for barometric pressure".
>
> Neither requires a dial and neither requires a mechanical instrument.
>
> Andy

I am also building a homebuilt sailplane and talked with the DAR
(designated airworthiness representative) about the instrumentation.
The answer I got was that it's pretty much up to him. I can have a
compass out of a child's toy if that's what I want and he's willing to
sign it off. Ditto for most of the other instruments.

[JJ Sinclair]

Good point, Andy.....................maybe we can use one of the many
altitude displays available. As you may have guessed, I removed the
big dial altimeter about a year ago when I installed a transponder. I
set field elevation on the SN10 which is on the first (custom) page
and set-up to be displayed at twice normal height. When not otherwise
being used I leave the black cursor on altitude.................works
like a charm! Yes, my flight manual says I need an altimiter approved
for use on certified aircraft, but it also says I must use the Prandtl
tube, but I'm using a triple probe instead. The guy that's sign'n off
my annual condition inspections doesn't sweat the little stuff.
JJ

Andy wrote:
> On Sep 27, 2:57�pm, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > Alas, yes they both require old fashioned dial altimiters. With todays
> > glass cockpits, I'm wondering if this requirement isn't outdated?
> > JJ
>
> JJ - Can you, or anyone else, reference a regulation on altimeters
> that includes the word DIAL.
>
> 91.205.b.2) requires for VFR flight an "altimeter"
>
> 91.205.d.5) requires for IFR flight "a sensitive altimeter adjustable
> for barometric pressure".
>
> Neither requires a dial and neither requires a mechanical instrument.
>
> Andy