A thought about handicapping.......

[XYZ]

What happens if we handicap pilots instead of aircraft.....
Have a handicap card for each pilot airplane combination.
If I can consistantly get 50% of the possible points earned by the days
winner,
I would get a series of normalization factors (2.00) that over time would
reflect my performance
against the group. Give me 95% of my normalization history as my handicap
and I'm in with a shot.
If I keep improving, my normalization go's down, If I keep getting killed ,
it go's up.
If Im in a different airplane, I get a different card with different
historical "stuff".
If KS always wins, He always gets a 1.00 and no help. If a rapidly
improving guy
in good hardware beats him on handicap, KS gets a bit added and the kid gets
a little removed.
It can be a dynamic number that reflects over time, airframe improvements as
well as piloting skill improvements.
It would also prop up aircraft as they age in the hands of people who fly
them a while.

Just a little free thinking to liven up the discussion.

On the other hand, Wouldn't it be cool for Cherokee Boy to be able to win
if he flew his butt off in a contest some time..............
--
Have a great day

Scott

[sisu1a]

> What happens if we handicap pilots instead of aircraft.....

You would run out of handicapped parking spots...

-Paul

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 03:35 26 September 2008, sisu1a wrote:
>
>> What happens if we handicap pilots instead of aircraft.....
>
>You would run out of handicapped parking spots...
>
>-Paul

... which reply I nominate as the best one liner reply on RAS:-)

[Jannica Wunge[_2_]]

That was one of best new ideas that I have heard of in a long time. Golf
has it and it is one of that sports most valuable assets. It would be a
tuff jobb to prove that it cant be done in soaring as well. Go for it and
pardon my spelling.

At 00:32 26 September 2008, XYZ wrote:
>What happens if we handicap pilots instead of aircraft.....
>Have a handicap card for each pilot airplane combination.
>If I can consistantly get 50% of the possible points earned by the days
>winner,
>I would get a series of normalization factors (2.00) that over time
would
>
>reflect my performance
>against the group. Give me 95% of my normalization history as my
handicap
>
>and I'm in with a shot.
>If I keep improving, my normalization go's down, If I keep getting
killed
>,
>it go's up.
>If Im in a different airplane, I get a different card with different
>historical "stuff".
>If KS always wins, He always gets a 1.00 and no help. If a rapidly
>improving guy
>in good hardware beats him on handicap, KS gets a bit added and the kid
>gets
>a little removed.
>It can be a dynamic number that reflects over time, airframe
improvements
>as
>well as piloting skill improvements.
>It would also prop up aircraft as they age in the hands of people who fly

>them a while.
>
>Just a little free thinking to liven up the discussion.
>
>On the other hand, Wouldn't it be cool for Cherokee Boy to be able to
win
>if he flew his butt off in a contest some time..............
>--
>Have a great day
>
>Scott
>
>
>

[Jannica Wunge[_2_]]

That was one of best new ideas that I have heard of in a long time. Golf
has it and it is one of that sports most valuable assets. It would be a
tuff jobb to prove that it cant be done in soaring as well. Go for it and
pardon my spelling.

At 00:32 26 September 2008, XYZ wrote:
>What happens if we handicap pilots instead of aircraft.....
>Have a handicap card for each pilot airplane combination.
>If I can consistantly get 50% of the possible points earned by the days
>winner,
>I would get a series of normalization factors (2.00) that over time
would
>
>reflect my performance
>against the group. Give me 95% of my normalization history as my
handicap
>
>and I'm in with a shot.
>If I keep improving, my normalization go's down, If I keep getting
killed
>,
>it go's up.
>If Im in a different airplane, I get a different card with different
>historical "stuff".
>If KS always wins, He always gets a 1.00 and no help. If a rapidly
>improving guy
>in good hardware beats him on handicap, KS gets a bit added and the kid
>gets
>a little removed.
>It can be a dynamic number that reflects over time, airframe
improvements
>as
>well as piloting skill improvements.
>It would also prop up aircraft as they age in the hands of people who fly

>them a while.
>
>Just a little free thinking to liven up the discussion.
>
>On the other hand, Wouldn't it be cool for Cherokee Boy to be able to
win
>if he flew his butt off in a contest some time..............
>--
>Have a great day
>
>Scott
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

On Sep 25, 8:32 pm, "XYZ" > wrote:
> What happens if we handicap pilots instead of aircraft....

Most likely you find that your contest is poorly attended.

-T8

[Karl Striedieck]

This idea has great potential - for what I'm not sure.

Done properly, all pilots would get 1,000 points every day and a
championship.

The awards podium would only have to have one level, although it would have
to support 65 pilots (and their trophies).

No more esteem-devastating losses and the requisite trips to the
psychologist's office for mental hand holding.

One type of medallion (gold) would enhance the economics of contests, as
would the ability to preprint the score sheets.

There must be sundry other advantages to this idea that others could point
out to the rules committee. I'm sure they will give them all the
consideration they deserve.

Karl Striedieck








> wrote in message
...
> On Sep 25, 8:32 pm, "XYZ" > wrote:
>> What happens if we handicap pilots instead of aircraft....
>
> Most likely you find that your contest is poorly attended.
>
> -T8
>

[Mike the Strike]

You obviously missed a similar suggestion I made last year. In
English handicapped horse racing, horses carry extra weight based on
their previous performance. It's presumed to make more exciting
racing.

My suggestion was to add drag strips to the gliders of the faster
pilots to slow them down. The better pilots always seem to fly about
10% faster than I do, which is clearly unfair!

As for KS, we should just make him fly a Twin Astir unhandicapped!

Mike

[Herb]

On Sep 25, 7:32*pm, "XYZ" > wrote:
> What happens if we handicap pilots instead of aircraft.....
> Have a handicap card for each pilot airplane combination.
> If I can consistantly get 50% of the possible points earned by the days
> winner,
> I would get a series of normalization factors (2.00) *that over time would
> reflect my performance
> against the group. *Give me 95% of my normalization history as my handicap
> and I'm in with a shot.
> If I keep improving, my normalization go's down, If I keep getting killed ,
> it go's up.
> If Im in a different airplane, I get a different card with different
> historical "stuff".
> If KS always wins, He always gets a 1.00 and no help. *If a rapidly
> improving guy
> in good hardware beats him on handicap, KS gets a bit added and the kid gets
> a little removed.
> It can be a dynamic number that reflects over time, airframe improvements as
> well as piloting skill improvements.
> It would also prop up aircraft as they age in the hands of people who fly
> them a while.
>
> Just a little free thinking to liven up the discussion.
>
> On the other hand, Wouldn't it be cool for Cherokee Boy to be able to win
> if he flew his butt off in a contest some time..............
> --
> Have a great day
>
> Scott

Scott,

We tried this in our NISC (Northern IL Soaring Contest) for a total
of 3 years I believe. Pilot Handicaps were assigned by BB based on
previous results in this season-long Sports Class type contest. The
main idea was to boost participation by new pilots interested in
racing. John Cochrane assigned hugely favorable factors to new pilots
with the result that a newbie won in the first year. There was no
appreciable change in the number of participants, though, same for the
following years.
In fact, the usual suspects won in the following years and scoring
with and without the pilot handicap showed that it didn't make much
difference. The best 8 flights of the year are scored in our contest
and it turned out to be much more effective to enter a flight every
weekend vs. having a favorable pilot handicap.
We did away with the system for this year and actually are having a
very good season with more flights and pilots participating than
ever. I'd be reluctant to reintroduce this concept! Here is a link
to our rules and results:
http://faculty.chicagogsb.edu/john.cochrane/research/Papers/#nisc


Herb, J7

[Andy[_1_]]

On Sep 25, 5:32*pm, "XYZ" > wrote:
> What happens if we handicap pilots instead of aircraft.....

Suggest you first define the objective of flying in a contest.

If the objective is to make it likely that all pilots have the same
score each day then you could divide up the points by email and cut
out the cost of travel and tows.

Andy

[Jim Beckman[_2_]]

At 16:39 26 September 2008, Andy wrote:
>On Sep 25, 5:32=A0pm, "XYZ" wrote:
>> What happens if we handicap pilots instead of aircraft.....
>
>Suggest you first define the objective of flying in a contest.
>
>If the objective is to make it likely that all pilots have the same
>score each day then you could divide up the points by email and cut
>out the cost of travel and tows.

And yet that same system hasn't exactly killed golf. Then again when
they play for the money, Tiger Woods doesn't play with a handicap
number.

Jim Beckman

[[email protected]]

On Sep 26, 1:07�pm, Jim Beckman > wrote:
> At 16:39 26 September 2008, Andy wrote:
>
> >On Sep 25, 5:32=A0pm, "XYZ" �wrote:
> >> What happens if we handicap pilots instead of aircraft.....
>
> >Suggest you first define the objective of flying in a contest.
>
> >If the objective is to make it likely that all pilots have the same
> >score each day then you could divide up the points by email and cut
> >out the cost of travel and tows.
>
> And yet that same system hasn't exactly killed golf. �Then again when
> they play for the money, Tiger Woods doesn't play with a handicap
> number.
>
> Jim Beckman

"Leach" becomes "Sandbager"....... "Sports Class Rookie" becomes
"Duffer".

"Big Winger" becomes "Long Ball Hitter".

"Land Out" becomes " Muligan".

"UH"...errrrr.. Admiral Nixon that is, becomes "Water Hazard".

"Relight" becomes "Free drop".

"Fly safe" becomes "Clean restrooms", "Handicaps" applied before
takeoff with "bugs and handprints."

SO....."Nothings broke"....means... "we don't need so sinkin
changes"......................


Thermal tight, Soar high, grrrrr...Clean restrooms....... #711.

[Tuno]

< What happens if we handicap pilots instead of aircraft..... >

That's when I take up golf.

2NO

[[email protected]]

On Sep 26, 4:19*pm, Tuno > wrote:
> < What happens if we handicap pilots instead of aircraft..... *>
>
> That's when I take up golf.
>
> 2NO

AMEN

[Andy[_1_]]

On Sep 26, 12:07*pm, Jim Beckman > wrote:

> And yet that same system hasn't exactly killed golf. *

But my interest in soaring contests would probably become equal to my
interest in golf which is zero.

Andy

[[email protected]]

On Sep 26, 4:22*am, Jannica Wunge > wrote:
> That was one of best new ideas that I have heard of in a long time. Golf
> has it and it is one of that sports most valuable assets. It would be a
> tuff jobb to prove that it cant be done in soaring as well. Go for it and
> pardon my spelling.

I thought the main benefit in golf was to facilitate side bets - not
to determine championships.

If golf used handicaps in tournaments I'd have won the US Open by now
because my handicap is like 80 strokes but on a good day I can beat it
by 20.

9B

[Mike the Strike]

On Sep 27, 2:17 am, wrote:
> On Sep 26, 4:22 am, Jannica Wunge > wrote:
>
> > That was one of best new ideas that I have heard of in a long time. Golf
> > has it and it is one of that sports most valuable assets. It would be a
> > tuff jobb to prove that it cant be done in soaring as well. Go for it and
> > pardon my spelling.
>
> I thought the main benefit in golf was to facilitate side bets - not
> to determine championships.
>
> If golf used handicaps in tournaments I'd have won the US Open by now
> because my handicap is like 80 strokes but on a good day I can beat it
> by 20.
>
> 9B

Yes, and I suspect the reason for handicapped horse racing in England
is to maximize the profits of the betting industry.

Mike

[Chris O'Callaghan]

We do this as one of our task options at M-ASA. For Grand Prixs, there is a
5 minute handicapp for Cat2 pilots and a 10 minute handicap for Cat1s.

We toyed with the idea of handicapping pilots, but this would require an
application to monitor performance in parallel with scoring. As pilots
improve, they would need to be constantly reassessed.

Another handicapp we've used is egg racing. A Cat 1 or 2 pilot identifies a
Cat 3 pilot and team flies. Both pilots receive the score of the Cat 3
pilot. This can be a lot of fun, and very instructive for both.

"XYZ" > wrote in message
. ..
> What happens if we handicap pilots instead of aircraft.....
> Have a handicap card for each pilot airplane combination.
> If I can consistantly get 50% of the possible points earned by the days
> winner,
> I would get a series of normalization factors (2.00) that over time would
> reflect my performance
> against the group. Give me 95% of my normalization history as my handicap
> and I'm in with a shot.
> If I keep improving, my normalization go's down, If I keep getting killed
> , it go's up.
> If Im in a different airplane, I get a different card with different
> historical "stuff".
> If KS always wins, He always gets a 1.00 and no help. If a rapidly
> improving guy
> in good hardware beats him on handicap, KS gets a bit added and the kid
> gets a little removed.
> It can be a dynamic number that reflects over time, airframe improvements
> as well as piloting skill improvements.
> It would also prop up aircraft as they age in the hands of people who fly
> them a while.
>
> Just a little free thinking to liven up the discussion.
>
> On the other hand, Wouldn't it be cool for Cherokee Boy to be able to win
> if he flew his butt off in a contest some time..............
> --
> Have a great day
>
> Scott
>

[noel.wade]

> Another handicapp we've used is egg racing. A Cat 1 or 2 pilot identifies a
> Cat 3 pilot and team flies. Both pilots receive the score of the Cat 3
> pilot. This can be a lot of fun, and very instructive for both.

Continuing the Golf analogy: This sounds like sort of a "Captain's
Choice Best Ball" type tournament...

Having done some lead-follow / team-fly mentoring XC flights with a
experienced pilots this summer I can attest to the fact that its a
great tool and a lot of fun!

But I think it would best be applied in some kind of casual/local-club
competition environment.

I think part of the backlash against many of these suggestions (I
mean, the ones with some merit to them), is that they're being talked
about in terms of USA Regional and National contests - which are more
serious / high-level events.

There's nothing stopping local clubs or groups from defining special
rules and trying these things at their own event!

Take care,

--Noel

[Cliff Hilty[_3_]]

Ive seen your golf 9B, 80 is not nearly a high enough handicapp for you :)

CH



At 09:17 27 September 2008, wrote:
>On Sep 26, 4:22=A0am, Jannica Wunge wrote:
>> That was one of best new ideas that I have heard of in a long time.
Golf
>> has it and it is one of that sports most valuable assets. It would be
a
>> tuff jobb to prove that it cant be done in soaring as well. Go for it
>and
>> pardon my spelling.
>
>I thought the main benefit in golf was to facilitate side bets - not
>to determine championships.
>
>If golf used handicaps in tournaments I'd have won the US Open by now
>because my handicap is like 80 strokes but on a good day I can beat it
>by 20.
>
>9B
>

[jb92563]

If we handicap the pilots we should have a "Special Olimpics" glider
contest.

That way the super pilots stay away and all us rookies can have a real
exciting contest where
even a Cherokee could take away the prize.

But we would need a lot of retrieve crews for such a contest.

Perhaps we can invite the super contest pilots to be retrieve crew and
judges.

[kirk.stant]

On Sep 30, 9:54*am, jb92563 > wrote:
> If we handicap the pilots we should have a "Special Olimpics" glider
> contest.
>
> That way the super pilots stay away and all us rookies can have a real
> exciting contest where
> even a Cherokee could take away the prize.
>
> But we would need a lot of retrieve crews for such a contest.
>
> Perhaps we can invite the super contest pilots to be retrieve crew and
> judges.

You do realize that all those "super contest pilots" were once rookies
who actually went to a race, instead of whining about how unfair and
hard it is? ;^)

Cheers!

Kirk

[g l i d e r s t u d]

Is summer over already? I am going back to flying.