All Soaring Participants

[Sam Giltner[_1_]]

www.5ugly.blogspot.com

[PMSC Member]

On Sep 28, 12:52*pm, Sam Giltner > wrote:
> www.5ugly.blogspot.com

Sam writes: Recently, I received an email from a soaring pilot who
describes himself as a “newbie”. He stated:

“I find it refreshing that you are asking for input from *all* soaring
participants. The SRA poll is only available to folks that have
previously competed, shame on them. If the SRA truly wants to see
participation increase at all levels they must remove the elitism
attitude and perception. While us newbie’s may not understand all of
the background and nuances of the competition our feedback and
opinions are equally important as the seasoned competitors.”


*********


A clarification: the SRA Rules Committee solicits input from
organizers as well as competitors.

My question: Why should the SRA solicit input from non-participants?

I disagree with the statement that "[non-participants'] feedback and
opinions are equally important as the seasoned competitors".

My personal opinion is that the current rules are pretty damned good
(thanks SRA!).

I see no evidence whatsoever that the current rules are shutting
anyone out of the sport and comments about "elitism" are just noise.
The Sports Class is about as inclusive as we can make it and the fact
of the matter is that all the "newbie" has to do to get help on any
contest related subject is ASK a current participant.

Lunch at my place today, Red Herring sandwiches, all you can eat!

-T8, Evan Ludeman

[noel.wade]

T8 -

As a newbie, I agree with some of the points you're trying to make;
but your tone is a little abrasive. I think it is coming across that
way out of annoyance at the blogger in this case, but some newbies
might think you're aiming at them.

I would put it this way: Its nice to hear from newbies and encourage
them to participate, but if they've never been in a competition then
their opinions on how contests are run or how classes are organized
should be taken with a grain of salt. Its not that Newbies can't have
good ideas - but people with experience who have seen the processes at-
work are much more qualified to make good judgements and suggest
realistic/meaningful changes and improvements. If someone wants to
make change, they should get involved and do it from the inside of an
organization - not try to impose change on others from the outside.

The good news about today's information-age is that even if the
newbies are excluded from the "official" SRA surveys and stuff, there
are still a bunch of ways for our feedback and ideas to be seen and
heard by competition pilots and organizers. I've thrown out a bunch
of ideas and opinions here on RAS in the last week and not a single
SRA person has told me to sit down or shut up - so I don't feel like
I'm being EX-cluded. I just hope that any dumb statements that I make
or stupid ideas that I propose are respectfully critiqued by those
folks, so that I learn and understand more. :-)

Take care,

--Noel

[HL Falbaum]

Sam-
Your blog captcha is being blocked by my browser somehow so I can't respond
there.

Seems to me that the people with no prior experience are not the ideal ones
to set the rules and procedures.
Somehow there are two separate subjects here. 1. How to select the Club
Class WGC team so as to have the best chance of winning, and 2. How to
increase participation by novices.

The answer to one has little to do with the answer to the other.

Our team should be "the best we have". This decision is perhaps a bit
subjective, but choose them early and let them fly and train in something
Club Class competitive, even if they must rent or swap something.

Novices need simple, fun, and help. Rules for that are in place already.
--
Hartley Falbaum
"KF" USA


"Sam Giltner" > wrote in message
...
> www.5ugly.blogspot.com

[toad]

With less sarcasm (which I appreciate :-) I agree with Evan's
point. Sports class is about as inclusive as it can get.

To start flying at contests, you need.
1) To be able to safely fly XC.
2) And a basic understanding of about 10% of the rules, which tell
you how to safely launch, start, finish and land.

That's about all you need to start, the rest can come later if you
want to win.

Changing the scoring or tasking rules, or even the classes wouldn't
make any difference to somebody new to contests.

The SRA poll is about the arcane details about glider contest rules.
Newbies who haven't flown a contest won't have much insight on these
details.

Todd Smith
3S

[PMSC Member]

On Sep 29, 2:20*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> T8 -
>
> As a newbie, I agree with some of the points you're trying to make;
> but your tone is a little abrasive. *I think it is coming across that
> way out of annoyance at the blogger in this case, but some newbies
> might think you're aiming at them.
>
> I would put it this way: *Its nice to hear from newbies and encourage
> them to participate, but if they've never been in a competition then
> their opinions on how contests are run or how classes are organized
> should be taken with a grain of salt. *Its not that Newbies can't have
> good ideas - but people with experience who have seen the processes at-
> work are much more qualified to make good judgements and suggest
> realistic/meaningful changes and improvements. *If someone wants to
> make change, they should get involved and do it from the inside of an
> organization - not try to impose change on others from the outside.
>
> The good news about today's information-age is that even if the
> newbies are excluded from the "official" SRA surveys and stuff, there
> are still a bunch of ways for our feedback and ideas to be seen and
> heard by competition pilots and organizers. *I've thrown out a bunch
> of ideas and opinions here on RAS in the last week and not a single
> SRA person has told me to sit down or shut up - so I don't feel like
> I'm being EX-cluded. *I just hope that any dumb statements that I make
> or stupid ideas that I propose are respectfully critiqued by those
> folks, so that I learn and understand more. *:-)
>
> Take care,
>
> --Noel

Hi Noel,

The point, which you obviously get, is that on an individual basis the
competition community is extremely helpful and welcoming to serious
newcomers. Newcomers are, however, not welcome to start fixing things
at random, most of which are not broken. We have a rules process. It
works. I've been flying competition off and on since the days of
pilotage and cameras. Every time I come back I feel like a newbie.
Every time I've been welcomed. Never have I thought I needed to get
involved with rules making.

Indeed the sarcasm was directed to the OP, whom I hope takes it in
stride and doesn't get unduly offended.

The side issue here, of course, has to do with his advocacy for club
class and the feeling of some that he wants on the Rules Committee for
not entirely altruistic reasons. FWIW, I'd personally find a club
class nats an interesting addition to the schedule -- I do own an
ASW-20 after all -- but handicap classes are made or broken on the
handicapping system. If I found, for instance, that the rules ended
up being handicap by data-plate only and that mods were "anything
goes", I wouldn't bother. Some dude shows up with the original
Scheumann Libelle and blows us all into the weeds. I'm not familiar
with the details of Sam's LS-1f, but I am given to understand that
it's substantially modified, so you can see the obvious concern.

Best regards,

-T8

[Sam Giltner[_1_]]

At 22:07 29 September 2008, PMSC Member wrote:
>On Sep 29, 2:20=A0pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
>> T8 -
>>
>> As a newbie, I agree with some of the points you're trying to make;
>> but your tone is a little abrasive. =A0I think it is coming across
that
>> way out of annoyance at the blogger in this case, but some newbies
>> might think you're aiming at them.
>>
>> I would put it this way: =A0Its nice to hear from newbies and
encourage
>> them to participate, but if they've never been in a competition then
>> their opinions on how contests are run or how classes are organized
>> should be taken with a grain of salt. =A0Its not that Newbies can't
have
>> good ideas - but people with experience who have seen the processes
at-
>> work are much more qualified to make good judgements and suggest
>> realistic/meaningful changes and improvements. =A0If someone wants to
>> make change, they should get involved and do it from the inside of an
>> organization - not try to impose change on others from the outside.
>>
>> The good news about today's information-age is that even if the
>> newbies are excluded from the "official" SRA surveys and stuff,
there
>> are still a bunch of ways for our feedback and ideas to be seen and
>> heard by competition pilots and organizers. =A0I've thrown out a
bunch
>> of ideas and opinions here on RAS in the last week and not a single
>> SRA person has told me to sit down or shut up - so I don't feel like
>> I'm being EX-cluded. =A0I just hope that any dumb statements that I
make
>> or stupid ideas that I propose are respectfully critiqued by those
>> folks, so that I learn and understand more. =A0:-)
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> --Noel
>
>Hi Noel,
>
>The point, which you obviously get, is that on an individual basis the
>competition community is extremely helpful and welcoming to serious
>newcomers. Newcomers are, however, not welcome to start fixing things
>at random, most of which are not broken. We have a rules process. It
>works. I've been flying competition off and on since the days of
>pilotage and cameras. Every time I come back I feel like a newbie.
>Every time I've been welcomed. Never have I thought I needed to get
>involved with rules making.
>
>Indeed the sarcasm was directed to the OP, whom I hope takes it in
>stride and doesn't get unduly offended.
>
>The side issue here, of course, has to do with his advocacy for club
>class and the feeling of some that he wants on the Rules Committee for
>not entirely altruistic reasons. FWIW, I'd personally find a club
>class nats an interesting addition to the schedule -- I do own an
>ASW-20 after all -- but handicap classes are made or broken on the
>handicapping system. If I found, for instance, that the rules ended
>up being handicap by data-plate only and that mods were "anything
>goes", I wouldn't bother. Some dude shows up with the original
>Scheumann Libelle and blows us all into the weeds. I'm not familiar
>with the details of Sam's LS-1f, but I am given to understand that
>it's substantially modified, so you can see the obvious concern.
>
>Best regards,
>
>-T8
> Just to set the record straight. My LS1-f has no modifications. Since
the rules and handicaps changed last year there is
1. no bumpy tape
2. no wingroot fillets(which came from the LS factory)
3. no winglets(never had them)
4. no VGs
This glider is "as it was" when it left the factory in 1975. It has been
refinished and well maintained only. Your inspecton is welcome! So maybe,
just maybe, your "obvious concern" is unfounded. Sam

[[email protected]]

One might reasonably contend that questionnaire participation
qualification should be intent specific.
In other words, it depends on the questions.

It is obvious why the non-racing membership shouldn't have sway on the
RC's evaluation of race procedures; but on the other hand, the
question "Would the initiation of Club Class here in the US increase
racing participation?", assuming the definition of Club Class is
provided, could be given an educated answer by someone who hasn't
competed in the last three years--especially if a "Yes" answer coming
from such a person can be statistically culled as sign of increasing
interest.

Regardless, the answer to such a question is subjective personal
opinion from whoever gives it.

As an aside: The failsafe way to gauge whether or not Club Class
might increase racing participation is to poll every owner of a Club
Class glider (whether they be an active racer or not).

Ray Cornay
LS-4 RD

[[email protected]]

On Sep 29, 8:39*pm, wrote:
> One might reasonably contend that questionnaire participation
> qualification should be intent specific.
> In other words, it depends on the questions.
>
> It is obvious why the non-racing membership shouldn't have sway on the
> RC's evaluation of race procedures; but on the other hand, the
> question "Would the initiation of Club Class here in the US increase
> racing participation?", assuming the definition of Club Class is
> provided, could be given an educated answer by someone who hasn't
> competed in the last three years--especially if a "Yes" answer coming
> from such a person can be statistically culled as sign of increasing
> interest.
>
> Regardless, the answer to such a question is subjective personal
> opinion from whoever gives it.
>
> As an aside: *The failsafe way to gauge whether or not Club Class
> might increase racing participation is to poll every owner of a Club
> Class glider (whether they be an active racer or not).
>
> Ray Cornay
> LS-4 RD

FWIW
I asked in an earlier thread to indicate they would join contest
flying if there were a Club Class.
I suspect there may be some. As of yet, no response.
What Ray suggests goes well beyond the resources of the RC.
UH

[noel.wade]

On Sep 29, 5:39*pm, wrote:
> As an aside: *The failsafe way to gauge whether or not Club Class
> might increase racing participation is to poll every owner of a Club
> Class glider (whether they be an active racer or not).

Ray -

I think your proposed question only works if you also provide the
definition of the Sports Class and explain the differences between the
two and what the current attendance level is and what the breakdown is
of how many of those attendees would be shifted to another class.
Classing is not something a newbie necessarily understands, either -
especially without context.

Also, polling people who aren't even active racers doesn't make
sense. If you don't race and don't intend to race, then why should
you have any sway over how races are run?

--Noel

[BB]

>
> As an aside: *The failsafe way to gauge whether or not Club Class
> might increase racing participation is to poll every owner of a Club
> Class glider (whether they be an active racer or not).

No, we should poll every person in the country, to see how many would
start flying gliders if we only put in a club class. No, poll everyone
in the world, to see how many will move to the US if only we had a
club class.

Seriously, there is a much better method. Club class advocates should
get off their butts and organize some "club class" contests, either
under regional or, better, super-regional rules, by waiver.
Demonstrate that there really is this group of potential competitors
who are somehow too put off by sports to fly contests, but really will
come out to fly club. That's a whole lot more failsafe than getting a
bunch of guys to send some emails, and carries a lot more weight than
this "you guys oughta" stuff.

John Cochrane
BB

[PMSC Member]

On Sep 29, 9:01*pm, wrote:

>
> FWIW
> I asked in an earlier thread to indicate they would join contest
> flying if there were a Club Class.
> I suspect there may be some. As of yet, no response.
> What Ray suggests goes well beyond the resources of the RC.
> UH

I would be unlikely to fly Club at Regional level -- I prefer flying
15m even with old ship -- but would be interested in Club Class Nats.
Depends on rules. IMO, Club Class would have potential to yield
(much) better racing at Nats level than Sports.

As has been discussed elsewhere, Sports Class at regional level seems
to scratch the itch of a lot of guys, for a lot of different
reasons.

-T8

[Sam Giltner[_1_]]

At 01:26 30 September 2008, BB wrote:
>>
>> As an aside: =A0The failsafe way to gauge whether or not Club Class
>> might increase racing participation is to poll every owner of a Club
>> Class glider (whether they be an active racer or not).
>
>No, we should poll every person in the country, to see how many would
>start flying gliders if we only put in a club class. No, poll everyone
>in the world, to see how many will move to the US if only we had a
>club class.
>
>Seriously, there is a much better method. Club class advocates should
>get off their butts and organize some "club class" contests, either
>under regional or, better, super-regional rules, by waiver.
>Demonstrate that there really is this group of potential competitors
>who are somehow too put off by sports to fly contests, but really will
>come out to fly club. That's a whole lot more failsafe than getting a
>bunch of guys to send some emails, and carries a lot more weight than
>this "you guys oughta" stuff.
>
>John Cochrane
>BB
>I agree with John! I don't fully understand the waiver but would be
willling to help get it organized.
Let's show the RC that the need for the Club Class is real. Anyone
interested please contact me. -374-7400. Sam