How to Remove Piston from Cylinder

[Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address)]

A member of our EAA chapter has a cylinder from a Franklin 150 engine
(off the engine.) The piston was pushed too far up and the top ring
sprung out so it now overlaps the cylinder sleeve which locks the piston
in place.

Does anyone have a technique to get the piston out? Preferably while
doing the least amount of damage. (So no explosives, please!)

Thanks,
Paul

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address) wrote:
>(So no explosives, please!)
>
> Thanks,
> Paul

How do expect any help if you tie our hands?

[Bob Kuykendall]

> A member of our EAA chapter has a cylinder from a Franklin 150 engine
> (off the engine.) The piston was pushed too far up and the top ring
> sprung out so it now overlaps the cylinder sleeve which locks the piston
> in place...

The last time I heard of that happening, the guy sawed the cylinder
head off the top of the cylinder with a bandsaw. In the process, he
zinged the piston pretty bad, pretty much ruining everything there.

My advice would be to see if there's a cylinder overhaul shop with the
capacity of unscrewing the head from the barrel. If so, send it to
them and see if they can rescue it. If not, make a lamp or bookend out
of it.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Bill Daniels]

"Bob Kuykendall" > wrote in message
...
>> A member of our EAA chapter has a cylinder from a Franklin 150 engine
>> (off the engine.) The piston was pushed too far up and the top ring
>> sprung out so it now overlaps the cylinder sleeve which locks the piston
>> in place...
>
> The last time I heard of that happening, the guy sawed the cylinder
> head off the top of the cylinder with a bandsaw. In the process, he
> zinged the piston pretty bad, pretty much ruining everything there.
>
> My advice would be to see if there's a cylinder overhaul shop with the
> capacity of unscrewing the head from the barrel. If so, send it to
> them and see if they can rescue it. If not, make a lamp or bookend out
> of it.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

That'd be my advice as well. I've watched as one of these shops mounted a
cylinder in their jig and very precisely and evenly heated the head until it
unscrewed. I was told they keep the aluminum head and replace the steel
barrel. I'd bet your friend won't be the first to show up with this
problem.

[Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address)]

Thanks for the replies.

Unfortunately it looks like the head doesn't unscrew like a Lycoming or
Continental would. This is from a Franklin engine, so we believe it's a
single piece casting. I guess a cylinder shop could heat barrel to get
the steel sleeve out. Hopefully that will provide enough clearance to
get it out.

If not, I guess it gets turned into a tacky lamp. I could put it next to
the other lamp I won as a "Major Award".

Paul

Bill Daniels wrote:
> "Bob Kuykendall" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> A member of our EAA chapter has a cylinder from a Franklin 150 engine
>>> (off the engine.) The piston was pushed too far up and the top ring
>>> sprung out so it now overlaps the cylinder sleeve which locks the piston
>>> in place...
>> The last time I heard of that happening, the guy sawed the cylinder
>> head off the top of the cylinder with a bandsaw. In the process, he
>> zinged the piston pretty bad, pretty much ruining everything there.
>>
>> My advice would be to see if there's a cylinder overhaul shop with the
>> capacity of unscrewing the head from the barrel. If so, send it to
>> them and see if they can rescue it. If not, make a lamp or bookend out
>> of it.
>>
>> Thanks, Bob K.
>
> That'd be my advice as well. I've watched as one of these shops mounted a
> cylinder in their jig and very precisely and evenly heated the head until it
> unscrewed. I was told they keep the aluminum head and replace the steel
> barrel. I'd bet your friend won't be the first to show up with this
> problem.
>
>

[John Kunkel]

"Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address)" > wrote in
message ...
>A member of our EAA chapter has a cylinder from a Franklin 150 engine (off
>the engine.) The piston was pushed too far up and the top ring sprung out
>so it now overlaps the cylinder sleeve which locks the piston in place.
>
> Does anyone have a technique to get the piston out? Preferably while doing
> the least amount of damage. (So no explosives, please!)

Take an old spark plug and break out the ceramic center, then thread the
steel body for a zerk fitting. Be sure both valves are closed, hook up
grease gun and start pumping; you might be able to build enough pressure
(grease guns are cabable of several thousand psi) to break the ring and
force the piston out or even push the liner out of the one-piece
cylinder/head.

[[email protected]]

> > Does anyone have a technique to get the piston out? Preferably while doing
> > the least amount of damage. (So no explosives, please!)
>
> Take an old spark plug and break out the ceramic center, then thread the
> steel body for a zerk fitting. *Be sure both valves are closed, hook up
> grease gun and start pumping; you might be able to build enough pressure
> (grease guns are cabable of several thousand psi) to break the ring and
> force the piston out or even push the liner out of the one-piece
> cylinder/head.

Adding to that idea heat the whole thing in an oven and then pack the
bore with ice upon removal. Remove the piston and the steel liner as
one assembly. Then renew as one would normally with a Franklin
cylinder/head combo ????

Never had this problem, and never tried this fix .............. Pure
speculation on my part.
================
Leon McAtee
Will remember not to do the same with my Franklin :-)

[[email protected]]

On Oct 1, 11:29*am, "Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address)"
> wrote:

> Does anyone have a technique to get the piston out? Preferably while
> doing the least amount of damage. (So no explosives, please!)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see any easy-out for this one.

I assume you're willing to sacrifice the piston in order to salvage
the cylinder, in which case you might try soaking the piston with
liquid nitrogen or other cryogenic that should allow you to shatter
the piston along the ring-groove.

Depending on how much of the upper portion of the piston is obscured
by the wrist pin, you might consider fabricating a fixture of some
sort bearing a number of high-gauss rare-earth magnets, the idea being
to cause the ring to be drawn back into its groove whilst the assembly
is under tension.

In a similar vein, the suggestion about using the piston to remove the
cylinder liner would appear to have merit. You should be able to rig
the assembly so as to create considerable tension between the cylinder
and the piston. The manual should give you some idea as to the
required temperature difference, which would be obtained by raising
the whole assembly to a given temperature then hitting the piston AND
liner with liquid nitrogen.

-R.S.Hoover

[jerry wass]

wrote:
> On Oct 1, 11:29 am, "Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address)"
> > wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have a technique to get the piston out? Preferably while
>> doing the least amount of damage. (So no explosives, please!)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I don't see any easy-out for this one.
>
> I assume you're willing to sacrifice the piston in order to salvage
> the cylinder, in which case you might try soaking the piston with
> liquid nitrogen or other cryogenic that should allow you to shatter
> the piston along the ring-groove.
>
> Depending on how much of the upper portion of the piston is obscured
> by the wrist pin, you might consider fabricating a fixture of some
> sort bearing a number of high-gauss rare-earth magnets, the idea being
> to cause the ring to be drawn back into its groove whilst the assembly
> is under tension.
>
> In a similar vein, the suggestion about using the piston to remove the
> cylinder liner would appear to have merit. You should be able to rig
> the assembly so as to create considerable tension between the cylinder
> and the piston. The manual should give you some idea as to the
> required temperature difference, which would be obtained by raising
> the whole assembly to a given temperature then hitting the piston AND
> liner with liquid nitrogen.
>
> -R.S.Hoover


This idea is the best so far--I would recommend hanging the assy. by the
rod, and attaching heavy weight to cyl head.. Then apply heat to barrel
of Cylinder.

I keep some old Coleman thermos bottle liners (vacuum bottles) then go
out to propane storage tank, crack the liquid line ,and after the valve
& line has chilled, introduce liquid into vacuum bottle...Careful--
the temp is -42°C-(-62°F)AND of course the vapor is highly flammable,and
1.5 times as dense as air--so it settles in low places.

Extinguish all fires & pilot lights---WEAR GOGGLES---The liquid will
boil violently upon contact with the hot metal---You have to do this
when you live 50 miles from Mr.Linde--& he might not have any liquid N2
that day anyhow..
Jerry

[Copperhead]

On Oct 2, 9:41*am, Jerry Wass > wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Oct 1, 11:29 am, "Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address)"
> > > wrote:
>
> >> Does anyone have a technique to get the piston out? Preferably while
> >> doing the least amount of damage. (So no explosives, please!)
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------*----------------------
>
> > I don't see any easy-out for this one.
>
> > I assume you're willing to sacrifice the piston in order to salvage
> > the cylinder, in which case you might try soaking the piston with
> > liquid nitrogen or other cryogenic that should allow you to shatter
> > the piston along the ring-groove.
>
> > Depending on how much of the upper portion of the piston is obscured
> > by the wrist pin, you might consider fabricating a fixture of some
> > sort bearing a number of high-gauss rare-earth magnets, the idea being
> > to cause the ring to be drawn back into its groove whilst the assembly
> > is under tension.
>
> > In a similar vein, the suggestion about using the piston to remove the
> > cylinder liner would appear to have merit. *You should be able to rig
> > the assembly so as to create considerable tension between the cylinder
> > and the piston. *The manual should give you some idea as to the
> > required temperature difference, which would be obtained by raising
> > the whole assembly to a given temperature then hitting the piston AND
> > liner with liquid nitrogen.
>
> > -R.S.Hoover
>
> This idea is the best so far--I would recommend hanging the assy. by the
> rod, and attaching heavy weight to cyl head.. Then apply heat to barrel
> of Cylinder.
>
> I keep some old Coleman thermos bottle liners (vacuum bottles) then go
> out to propane storage tank, crack the liquid line ,and after the valve
> & line has chilled, introduce *liquid into vacuum bottle...Careful--
> the temp is -42°C-(-62°F)AND of course the vapor is highly flammable,and
> 1.5 times as dense as air--so it settles in low places.
>
> Extinguish all fires & pilot lights---WEAR GOGGLES---The liquid will
> boil violently upon contact with the hot metal---You have to do this
> when you live 50 miles from Mr.Linde--& he might not have any liquid N2
> that day anyhow..
> Jerry- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Is there any reason why the pistons head can’t be drilled out and an
insert fabricated to slip inside it through the top for use as a
puller? You can use a chemical fire extinguisher to super cool the
cylinder head for shrinkage and then follow up with a series of sharp
pulls to extract the piston. If the piston shatters then remove it,
or its top pulls loose than fabricated another top insert to friction
fit inside the piston walls and try the whole chill/pull process
again. Of course this is just my .02 worth folks along with the
admonition that I’m more of a parts changer than mechanic.
Joe Stevenson

[Jon Woellhaf]

Is anyone in the chapter a surgeon or does anyone know one personally? I
have a surgeon friend who's an expert in performing abdominal surgery
through a tiny incision. He could remove your appendix though your belly
button. I think someone like him would find it possible to work through the
spark plug holes and squeeze the ring enough to let it slip past the top of
the sleeve.

"Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address)" > wrote in
message ...
>A member of our EAA chapter has a cylinder from a Franklin 150 engine (off
>the engine.) The piston was pushed too far up and the top ring sprung out
>so it now overlaps the cylinder sleeve which locks the piston in place.
>
> Does anyone have a technique to get the piston out? Preferably while doing
> the least amount of damage. (So no explosives, please!)
>
> Thanks,
> Paul

[Dave S]

Jon Woellhaf wrote:
> Is anyone in the chapter a surgeon or does anyone know one personally? I
> have a surgeon friend who's an expert in performing abdominal surgery
> through a tiny incision. He could remove your appendix though your belly
> button. I think someone like him would find it possible to work through the
> spark plug holes and squeeze the ring enough to let it slip past the top of
> the sleeve.
>

I think you are smoking something strong if you think a surgeon is
going to use instruments intended for use in the body in a plane - and
as a general rule, the equipment/instrument is usually owned by
hospitals, not by the docs..

I like the grease gun idea the best.. any 'noncompressible' media will
do - water, grease, oil.. just not AIR..

OR.. fill the head with water, valves closed, spark plug hole sealed,
and freeze it. Water expands a little as it freezes.. it will overcome
any shear resistance the rings have.

[Jon Woellhaf]

I didn't say anything about using surgical instruments. I don't smoke, but I
have been painting a lot today. <g>

"Dave S" > wrote in message
...
> Jon Woellhaf wrote:
>> Is anyone in the chapter a surgeon or does anyone know one personally? I
>> have a surgeon friend who's an expert in performing abdominal surgery
>> through a tiny incision. He could remove your appendix though your belly
>> button. I think someone like him would find it possible to work through
>> the spark plug holes and squeeze the ring enough to let it slip past the
>> top of the sleeve.
>>
>
> I think you are smoking something strong if you think a surgeon is going
> to use instruments intended for use in the body in a plane - and as a
> general rule, the equipment/instrument is usually owned by hospitals, not
> by the docs..
>
> I like the grease gun idea the best.. any 'noncompressible' media will
> do - water, grease, oil.. just not AIR..
>
> OR.. fill the head with water, valves closed, spark plug hole sealed, and
> freeze it. Water expands a little as it freezes.. it will overcome any
> shear resistance the rings have.

[Charles Vincent]

Dave S wrote:
> Jon Woellhaf wrote:
>> Is anyone in the chapter a surgeon or does anyone know one personally?
>> I have a surgeon friend who's an expert in performing abdominal
>> surgery through a tiny incision. He could remove your appendix though
>> your belly button. I think someone like him would find it possible to
>> work through the spark plug holes and squeeze the ring enough to let
>> it slip past the top of the sleeve.
>>
>
> I think you are smoking something strong if you think a surgeon is
> going to use instruments intended for use in the body in a plane - and
> as a general rule, the equipment/instrument is usually owned by
> hospitals, not by the docs..
>
> I like the grease gun idea the best.. any 'noncompressible' media will
> do - water, grease, oil.. just not AIR..
>
> OR.. fill the head with water, valves closed, spark plug hole sealed,
> and freeze it. Water expands a little as it freezes.. it will overcome
> any shear resistance the rings have.

The ring may not have expanded all the way round, in that case, you
might coax the piston out using a set of long feeler gauges slipped
between the piston and wall and twisting the piston gently. I have a
set of feeler gauges made for piston work that are a little over twelve
inches long. Not surgical tools, but could get the job done. My
Franklin Manual(very dated) shows the max wear cold clearance to be .036
at the piston top, so it just might be doable.

You could also fabricate a tool from music wire by annealing it,
flattening the end very thin with hammer and anvil (small) and then
rehardening it. Working through the plug holes with several tools and a
lot of patience you might be able to coax it back in.

In big transformers we have an effect called magnetostriction (the cause
of the hum you hear) I was curious if it would have an effect on a
piston ring, so I tried it out with a small piston ring from a weedeater
motor in my growler. No effect. I couldn't find my degaussing coil
(which might produce a more useful field), so could not try that, but
suspect that if it did have an effect it would be to open the gap and
actually spread the ring. The ring had a lot more tension than I
thought. I grabbed an old automotive ring (no idea what it is off of --
I save everything) and am guessing that it would take north of ten
pounds of pressure to compress it, which calls for a pretty strong
magnetic field when it is expected to perform over a considerable gap.

There are also several acids that will attack steel and not aluminum. I
have used that dodge many years ago to remove a busted tap from an
aluminum part that I had a lot of time invested in. I used plain
battery acid that time, but I think I recall that nitric acid could work
better. This would likely attack the valve seats and liner, but would
not harm the head or piston. You would want to degrease everything
before trying the acid.

As far as heating it up and pulling the liner, my (very dated) Franklin
manual shows the liner and valve guides are installed with the jug
heated to between 625-650 degrees F. They list this same temperature
for replacement of the guides, but there is no guidance on removing the
liner. It does show the liner is held in place by one or more
(depending on the model) locking pins at the base (flange) of the jug.
The locking pin is inserted in and held in place by two socket head
screws placed in the hole one after another. The cylinder is finish
ground and honed after the pin(s)are installed, so once you pull the
liner, you are sending it out to be reworked, in which case you might as
well let them deal with the whole problem.

Charles

[Charles Vincent]

Charles Vincent wrote:
>
> There are also several acids that will attack steel and not aluminum. I
> have used that dodge many years ago to remove a busted tap from an
> aluminum part that I had a lot of time invested in. I used plain
> battery acid that time, but I think I recall that nitric acid could work
> better. This would likely attack the valve seats and liner, but would
> not harm the head or piston. You would want to degrease everything
> before trying the acid.
>

On reflection, forget I said that. To much risk that the acid would
have some long term effect and I simply don't know enough about it to
recommend it for an aircraft part.

Charles

[Walter Kronester[_3_]]

Hi Paul,
do you know this document, mainly the drawing around page 2-40 or at 2-35?
http://www.franklin.ioi.pl/dokumenty/6cyl_Ilustrated_Parts_Catalog.pdf

http://www.franklin.ioi.pl/dokumenty/IPC_4A235_B4.pdf

It seems the cylinder liner can be pulled if the lock pin is removed.

Much luck
Walter

[Dan[_12_]]

Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
> Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address) wrote:
>> (So no explosives, please!)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Paul
>
> How do expect any help if you tie our hands?


"There are very few of man's problems that can't be solved by the
proper application of the appropriate explosives." - Ragnar "oops" Benson

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Vaughn Simon]

"Dan" > wrote in message ...
>
> "There are very few of man's problems that can't be solved by the proper
> application of the appropriate explosives." - Ragnar "oops" Benson

"Blo-Jell ! The plastic explosive you use at home. Great for those pesky stuck
window frames; better than a string and a doorknob for removing Junior's loose
tooth" (As remembered from the Prairie Home Companion show)

Vaughn

[Dan[_12_]]

Vaughn Simon wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message ...
>> "There are very few of man's problems that can't be solved by the proper
>> application of the appropriate explosives." - Ragnar "oops" Benson
>
> "Blo-Jell ! The plastic explosive you use at home. Great for those pesky stuck
> window frames; better than a string and a doorknob for removing Junior's loose
> tooth" (As remembered from the Prairie Home Companion show)
>
> Vaughn
>
>
>

I prefer hand grenades. They can be used for fishing, removing walls
from fingerprints, getting your neighbour to stop mowing the lawn too
early..etc.

Hand grenades are also very effective for painting rooms. One opens a
can of paint, places it on the floor in the geometric centre of the
room, pulls the pin from the grenade, drops it into the, vacates the
room, and voi ci, a painted room.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Anthony W]

Dan wrote:

> Hand grenades are also very effective for painting rooms. One opens a
> can of paint, places it on the floor in the geometric centre of the
> room, pulls the pin from the grenade, drops it into the, vacates the
> room, and voi ci, a painted room.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I'd like to see Myth Busters try this one... ;o)

Tony

[Dan[_12_]]

Anthony W wrote:
> Dan wrote:
>
>> Hand grenades are also very effective for painting rooms. One opens
>> a can of paint, places it on the floor in the geometric centre of the
>> room, pulls the pin from the grenade, drops it into the, vacates the
>> room, and voi ci, a painted room.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> I'd like to see Myth Busters try this one... ;o)
>
> Tony

I wonder if they'd fly me in to supervise.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Tim Ward[_1_]]

"Anthony W" > wrote in message
...
> Dan wrote:
>
> > Hand grenades are also very effective for painting rooms. One opens a
> > can of paint, places it on the floor in the geometric centre of the
> > room, pulls the pin from the grenade, drops it into the, vacates the
> > room, and voi ci, a painted room.
> >
> > Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> I'd like to see Myth Busters try this one... ;o)
>
> Tony

They did. Episode 52.

[Anthony W]

Tim Ward wrote:
> "Anthony W" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Dan wrote:
>>
>>> Hand grenades are also very effective for painting rooms. One opens a
>>> can of paint, places it on the floor in the geometric centre of the
>>> room, pulls the pin from the grenade, drops it into the, vacates the
>>> room, and voi ci, a painted room.
>>>
>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>> I'd like to see Myth Busters try this one... ;o)
>>
>> Tony
>
> They did. Episode 52.

Damn, sorry I missed that one...

Tony

[John Clear]

In article >,
Anthony W > wrote:
>Tim Ward wrote:
>> "Anthony W" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Dan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hand grenades are also very effective for painting rooms. One opens a
>>>> can of paint, places it on the floor in the geometric centre of the
>>>> room, pulls the pin from the grenade, drops it into the, vacates the
>>>> room, and voi ci, a painted room.
>>>>
>>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>> I'd like to see Myth Busters try this one... ;o)
>>>
>>> Tony
>>
>> They did. Episode 52.
>
>Damn, sorry I missed that one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(season_4)#Painting_With_Explosives

Painting With Explosives

This myth originated from the episode "Do-It-Yourself, Mr. Bean"
of the British comedy series Mr. Bean starring Rowan Atkinson.

Myth statement: A small room can be quickly painted by detonating
a stick of dynamite in a bucket of paint.

Status: Busted

Notes: A stick of dynamite in a bucket of paint cannot distribute
the paint evenly enough to fully paint the room; only 40% of the
room (around the bottom and part of the ceiling) received paint,
and the room took some shrapnel damage (even from a plastic bucket).
Furthermore, Adam's and Jamie's customized contraptions, designed
to help distribute the paint more evenly, failed to produce any
successful results or an intact room.

-------

I love the last line. Classic Mythbusters.
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address)]

Hello Walter,

Thank you for that link. I wasn't aware that it is on the web. My friend
didn't have the parts manual. He does have the 6 cylinder model, so that
information should be very useful to us.

Also, it looks like your posting did appear in the newsgroup. I think
some newsgroup servers don't update very quickly.

It looks like the messages on the newsgroup have migrated to a
discussion about explosives now :-)

Paul

Walter Kronester wrote:
> Hi Paul,
> do you know this document, mainly the drawing around page 2-40 or at 2-35?
> http://www.franklin.ioi.pl/dokumenty/6cyl_Ilustrated_Parts_Catalog.pdf
>
> http://www.franklin.ioi.pl/dokumenty/IPC_4A235_B4.pdf
>
> It seems the cylinder liner can be pulled if the lock pin is removed.
>
> Much luck
> Walter
>
>

[Dan[_12_]]

Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address) wrote:
> Hello Walter,
>
> Thank you for that link. I wasn't aware that it is on the web. My friend
> didn't have the parts manual. He does have the 6 cylinder model, so that
> information should be very useful to us.
>
> Also, it looks like your posting did appear in the newsgroup. I think
> some newsgroup servers don't update very quickly.
>
> It looks like the messages on the newsgroup have migrated to a
> discussion about explosives now :-)
>
> Paul
>

You say that like it's a bad thing. Explosives can come in handy.
Example your starter dies, hand propping isn't working and you want to
crank the engine, just remove a spark plug, put a handful of black
powder in the cylinder, insert fuse and rag to act as a plug, light fuse
and hop in. Explosives can also be used for emergency tire inflation.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Tech Support]

On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:01:02 -0500, Dan > wrote:

>Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address) wrote:
>> Hello Walter,
>>
>> Thank you for that link. I wasn't aware that it is on the web. My friend
>> didn't have the parts manual. He does have the 6 cylinder model, so that
>> information should be very useful to us.
>>
>> Also, it looks like your posting did appear in the newsgroup. I think
>> some newsgroup servers don't update very quickly.
>>
>> It looks like the messages on the newsgroup have migrated to a
>> discussion about explosives now :-)
>>
>> Paul
>>
>
> You say that like it's a bad thing. Explosives can come in handy.
>Example your starter dies, hand propping isn't working and you want to
>crank the engine, just remove a spark plug, put a handful of black
>powder in the cylinder, insert fuse and rag to act as a plug, light fuse
>and hop in. Explosives can also be used for emergency tire inflation.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
**********************************************

Dan

Why can't you put in cylinder and use plug to light off????

Big John

[Dan[_12_]]

Tech Support wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:01:02 -0500, Dan > wrote:
>
>> Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address) wrote:
>>> Hello Walter,
>>>
>>> Thank you for that link. I wasn't aware that it is on the web. My friend
>>> didn't have the parts manual. He does have the 6 cylinder model, so that
>>> information should be very useful to us.
>>>
>>> Also, it looks like your posting did appear in the newsgroup. I think
>>> some newsgroup servers don't update very quickly.
>>>
>>> It looks like the messages on the newsgroup have migrated to a
>>> discussion about explosives now :-)
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>> You say that like it's a bad thing. Explosives can come in handy.
>> Example your starter dies, hand propping isn't working and you want to
>> crank the engine, just remove a spark plug, put a handful of black
>> powder in the cylinder, insert fuse and rag to act as a plug, light fuse
>> and hop in. Explosives can also be used for emergency tire inflation.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> **********************************************
>
> Dan
>
> Why can't you put in cylinder and use plug to light off????
>
> Big John

I'm assuming the think won't turn over in the first place. If it can
be turned enough to obtain a spark one can add saltpeter, sulfur,
aluminum powder and confectioner's sugar in the proper proportions if
one is out of black powder. Not that I know anything about the
particulars, you understand.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Tech Support]

On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:55:27 -0500, Dan > wrote:

>Tech Support wrote:
>> On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:01:02 -0500, Dan > wrote:
>>
>>> Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address) wrote:
>>>> Hello Walter,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for that link. I wasn't aware that it is on the web. My friend
>>>> didn't have the parts manual. He does have the 6 cylinder model, so that
>>>> information should be very useful to us.
>>>>
>>>> Also, it looks like your posting did appear in the newsgroup. I think
>>>> some newsgroup servers don't update very quickly.
>>>>
>>>> It looks like the messages on the newsgroup have migrated to a
>>>> discussion about explosives now :-)
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>> You say that like it's a bad thing. Explosives can come in handy.
>>> Example your starter dies, hand propping isn't working and you want to
>>> crank the engine, just remove a spark plug, put a handful of black
>>> powder in the cylinder, insert fuse and rag to act as a plug, light fuse
>>> and hop in. Explosives can also be used for emergency tire inflation.
>>>
>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>> **********************************************
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> Why can't you put in cylinder and use plug to light off????
>>
>> Big John
>
> I'm assuming the think won't turn over in the first place. If it can
>be turned enough to obtain a spark one can add saltpeter, sulfur,
>aluminum powder and confectioner's sugar in the proper proportions if
>one is out of black powder. Not that I know anything about the
>particulars, you understand.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
************************************************** *************************

Dan

As a teenager I used potasum clorate and sulpher.

Poured a spot on cement and kicked with heel plate and went off.

Also put in a CO2 cartridge and set off with home made fuse. Made a
powerful rocket (half a city block).

How I ever survived growing up I don't know looking back.

Big John

[Dan[_12_]]

Tech Support wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:55:27 -0500, Dan > wrote:
>
>> Tech Support wrote:
>>> On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:01:02 -0500, Dan > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address) wrote:
>>>>> Hello Walter,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for that link. I wasn't aware that it is on the web. My friend
>>>>> didn't have the parts manual. He does have the 6 cylinder model, so that
>>>>> information should be very useful to us.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, it looks like your posting did appear in the newsgroup. I think
>>>>> some newsgroup servers don't update very quickly.
>>>>>
>>>>> It looks like the messages on the newsgroup have migrated to a
>>>>> discussion about explosives now :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>> You say that like it's a bad thing. Explosives can come in handy.
>>>> Example your starter dies, hand propping isn't working and you want to
>>>> crank the engine, just remove a spark plug, put a handful of black
>>>> powder in the cylinder, insert fuse and rag to act as a plug, light fuse
>>>> and hop in. Explosives can also be used for emergency tire inflation.
>>>>
>>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>> **********************************************
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> Why can't you put in cylinder and use plug to light off????
>>>
>>> Big John
>> I'm assuming the think won't turn over in the first place. If it can
>> be turned enough to obtain a spark one can add saltpeter, sulfur,
>> aluminum powder and confectioner's sugar in the proper proportions if
>> one is out of black powder. Not that I know anything about the
>> particulars, you understand.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> ************************************************** *************************
>
> Dan
>
> As a teenager I used potasum clorate and sulpher.
>
> Poured a spot on cement and kicked with heel plate and went off.
>
> Also put in a CO2 cartridge and set off with home made fuse. Made a
> powerful rocket (half a city block).
>
> How I ever survived growing up I don't know looking back.
>
> Big John

Looking back I can see several occasions where I should have been
injured or killed with some things I did. I proved launching a plastic
model Saturn V is possible with off the shelf C engines. I also proved
that didn't include going in the intended direction.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Anthony W]

Dan wrote:

> Looking back I can see several occasions where I should have been
> injured or killed with some things I did. I proved launching a plastic
> model Saturn V is possible with off the shelf C engines. I also proved
> that didn't include going in the intended direction.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I found that you could use the charge portion of the model rocket engine
that is supposed to pop the parachute to set off firecrackers. I'd make
the body of the rocket out of a cardboard tube from a roll Christmas
wrapping and cut the fins and nosecone out of a shoe box lid. My plan
was always to blow them up before they came back down.

I would also light them with homemade fuses made from heavy cotton
string soaked in a solution of black powder and watter then rolled in
fine black powder. I got fuse instructions out of an old book on
armaments.

Tony

[Dan[_12_]]

Anthony W wrote:
> Dan wrote:
>
>> Looking back I can see several occasions where I should have been
>> injured or killed with some things I did. I proved launching a plastic
>> model Saturn V is possible with off the shelf C engines. I also proved
>> that didn't include going in the intended direction.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> I found that you could use the charge portion of the model rocket engine
> that is supposed to pop the parachute to set off firecrackers. I'd make
> the body of the rocket out of a cardboard tube from a roll Christmas
> wrapping and cut the fins and nosecone out of a shoe box lid. My plan
> was always to blow them up before they came back down.
>
> I would also light them with homemade fuses made from heavy cotton
> string soaked in a solution of black powder and watter then rolled in
> fine black powder. I got fuse instructions out of an old book on
> armaments.
>
> Tony

Fingers? We don't need no stinking fingers.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Drew Dalgleish]

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 07:26:56 GMT, Anthony W >
wrote:

>Dan wrote:
>
>> Looking back I can see several occasions where I should have been
>> injured or killed with some things I did. I proved launching a plastic
>> model Saturn V is possible with off the shelf C engines. I also proved
>> that didn't include going in the intended direction.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>I found that you could use the charge portion of the model rocket engine
>that is supposed to pop the parachute to set off firecrackers. I'd make
>the body of the rocket out of a cardboard tube from a roll Christmas
>wrapping and cut the fins and nosecone out of a shoe box lid. My plan
>was always to blow them up before they came back down.
>
>I would also light them with homemade fuses made from heavy cotton
>string soaked in a solution of black powder and watter then rolled in
>fine black powder. I got fuse instructions out of an old book on
>armaments.
>
>Tony

I used to just glue balsa fins and nose right onto the rocket engine.
I also made a hand held launcher for non-vertical deployment :)
I Wish I had of thought of using the engine to light firecrackers a
cherry bomb would make a great finish to a flight.

[Anthony W]

Drew Dalgleish wrote:

> I used to just glue balsa fins and nose right onto the rocket engine.
> I also made a hand held launcher for non-vertical deployment :)
> I Wish I had of thought of using the engine to light firecrackers a
> cherry bomb would make a great finish to a flight.

Back when I was a kid, model rocket engines were hard to come by, now
they can be mail ordered. It's the firecrackers that are hard to come
by these days or at least in socialist Oregon.

Tony

[Anthony W]

Dan wrote:

>> I would also light them with homemade fuses made from heavy cotton
>> string soaked in a solution of black powder and watter then rolled in
>> fine black powder. I got fuse instructions out of an old book on
>> armaments.
>>
>> Tony
>
> Fingers? We don't need no stinking fingers.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Making fuse is dangerous? It was all out in the open and the worst I
could have gotten was a burn. I used the same black power that I used
with the muzzle-loader pistol that I had back then and it was way more
dangerous than my exploits in home made fuses.

Tony

[Dan[_12_]]

Anthony W wrote:
> Dan wrote:
>
>>> I would also light them with homemade fuses made from heavy cotton
>>> string soaked in a solution of black powder and watter then rolled in
>>> fine black powder. I got fuse instructions out of an old book on
>>> armaments.
>>>
>>> Tony
>>
>> Fingers? We don't need no stinking fingers.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> Making fuse is dangerous? It was all out in the open and the worst I
> could have gotten was a burn. I used the same black power that I used
> with the muzzle-loader pistol that I had back then and it was way more
> dangerous than my exploits in home made fuses.
>
> Tony

An unexpectedly fast burning fuse can toast one's fingers while
testing. If you want to see a test of relative burn rates between
smokeless and black powders burn a spoonful of each. Use a blowtorch to
ignite the black powder. It will burn fast enough to extinguish the torch.

It was also a commentary on some of the other clever moves I have
seen and done. I have a series of photographs of one fool using his
buttocks to launch an oversize bottle rocket. The last picture shows a
significant amount of charring.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Anthony W]

Dan wrote:
> An unexpectedly fast burning fuse can toast one's fingers while
> testing. If you want to see a test of relative burn rates between
> smokeless and black powders burn a spoonful of each. Use a blowtorch to
> ignite the black powder. It will burn fast enough to extinguish the torch.
>
> It was also a commentary on some of the other clever moves I have seen
> and done. I have a series of photographs of one fool using his buttocks
> to launch an oversize bottle rocket. The last picture shows a
> significant amount of charring.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I for most of my home spun fireworks, I didn't roll the fuse in black
powder only soaked them in a 50/50 black power/water solution then hung
them up up to dry. This made for some very slow fuses. I put a 24"
fuse on one of my first homemade devices and I waited several minutes
for it to go off. Watching it through binoculars was like watching
paint dry until the end. ;o)

For the rocket motors, I had to roll the motor end in black powder
before drying to get reliable ignition. I only rolled one test fuse for
the full length. It was too damn fast for my tastes. I like to be able
to get back aways before things go boom. I guess I'm just enough
fearful to keep from blowing my self up...

If I ever play with model rockets again, I'll use the electric igniters
that come with the engines. There was a certain level of simplicity
using a welding rod and fuse to do the launch when I was a kid...

Tony

[Peter Dohm]

"Anthony W" > wrote in message
...
> Dan wrote:
>> An unexpectedly fast burning fuse can toast one's fingers while
>> testing. If you want to see a test of relative burn rates between
>> smokeless and black powders burn a spoonful of each. Use a blowtorch to
>> ignite the black powder. It will burn fast enough to extinguish the
>> torch.
>>
>> It was also a commentary on some of the other clever moves I have seen
>> and done. I have a series of photographs of one fool using his buttocks
>> to launch an oversize bottle rocket. The last picture shows a significant
>> amount of charring.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> I for most of my home spun fireworks, I didn't roll the fuse in black
> powder only soaked them in a 50/50 black power/water solution then hung
> them up up to dry. This made for some very slow fuses. I put a 24" fuse
> on one of my first homemade devices and I waited several minutes for it to
> go off. Watching it through binoculars was like watching paint dry until
> the end. ;o)
>
> For the rocket motors, I had to roll the motor end in black powder before
> drying to get reliable ignition. I only rolled one test fuse for the full
> length. It was too damn fast for my tastes. I like to be able to get
> back aways before things go boom. I guess I'm just enough fearful to keep
> from blowing my self up...
>
> If I ever play with model rockets again, I'll use the electric igniters
> that come with the engines. There was a certain level of simplicity using
> a welding rod and fuse to do the launch when I was a kid...
>
> Tony

We had a rocketry club in my high school, of which I was a member. As it
happened, none of us had a clue about the structural materials involved,
including our faculty advisor; but a couple of the members did at least know
the names of the chemicals needed for reasonalby high performance
propellants.

In those innocent days, you could still buy just about anything you knew the
name of, so each of our attempts was sufficiently grandiose to fully
compensate for the abject failures which preceeded it. Fortunately, we were
sufficiently safety coscious to stay well back from the intended launch site
and behind a small berm.

Of course, when ever more grandiose attempts don't quite succeed, there can
be ever more grandiose failures--the last of which destroyed our ignition
and launching equipment. That's probably just as well, since we made made
our last rocket of steel which we believed would sufficiently robust....

Clearly, a little more knowledge and/or advice would have given at least as
much entertainment from the successfull launch of cardboard rockets that
would not have attempted to duplicate those clever hypersonic nozzels that
we copied from the space program.


Peter

[Steve Hix]

In article >, Dan >
wrote:
>
> An unexpectedly fast burning fuse can toast one's fingers while
> testing. If you want to see a test of relative burn rates between
> smokeless and black powders burn a spoonful of each. Use a blowtorch to
> ignite the black powder. It will burn fast enough to extinguish the torch.

And the amount of black powder that you light up can affect what it does.

A bigger pile can blow up in your face instead of just a little puff.

[Dan[_12_]]

Peter Dohm wrote:
> "Anthony W" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Dan wrote:
>>> An unexpectedly fast burning fuse can toast one's fingers while
>>> testing. If you want to see a test of relative burn rates between
>>> smokeless and black powders burn a spoonful of each. Use a blowtorch to
>>> ignite the black powder. It will burn fast enough to extinguish the
>>> torch.
>>>
>>> It was also a commentary on some of the other clever moves I have seen
>>> and done. I have a series of photographs of one fool using his buttocks
>>> to launch an oversize bottle rocket. The last picture shows a significant
>>> amount of charring.
>>>
>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>> I for most of my home spun fireworks, I didn't roll the fuse in black
>> powder only soaked them in a 50/50 black power/water solution then hung
>> them up up to dry. This made for some very slow fuses. I put a 24" fuse
>> on one of my first homemade devices and I waited several minutes for it to
>> go off. Watching it through binoculars was like watching paint dry until
>> the end. ;o)
>>
>> For the rocket motors, I had to roll the motor end in black powder before
>> drying to get reliable ignition. I only rolled one test fuse for the full
>> length. It was too damn fast for my tastes. I like to be able to get
>> back aways before things go boom. I guess I'm just enough fearful to keep
>> from blowing my self up...
>>
>> If I ever play with model rockets again, I'll use the electric igniters
>> that come with the engines. There was a certain level of simplicity using
>> a welding rod and fuse to do the launch when I was a kid...
>>
>> Tony
>
> We had a rocketry club in my high school, of which I was a member. As it
> happened, none of us had a clue about the structural materials involved,
> including our faculty advisor; but a couple of the members did at least know
> the names of the chemicals needed for reasonalby high performance
> propellants.
>
> In those innocent days, you could still buy just about anything you knew the
> name of, so each of our attempts was sufficiently grandiose to fully
> compensate for the abject failures which preceeded it. Fortunately, we were
> sufficiently safety coscious to stay well back from the intended launch site
> and behind a small berm.
>
> Of course, when ever more grandiose attempts don't quite succeed, there can
> be ever more grandiose failures--the last of which destroyed our ignition
> and launching equipment. That's probably just as well, since we made made
> our last rocket of steel which we believed would sufficiently robust....
>
> Clearly, a little more knowledge and/or advice would have given at least as
> much entertainment from the successfull launch of cardboard rockets that
> would not have attempted to duplicate those clever hypersonic nozzels that
> we copied from the space program.
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
The funny part comes when you find out everything you needed was
either already in the home or innocently sold at hardware stores.

For people reading this thread who want to go play with chemicals as
we have been discussing I have something very important to tell them:
most of the formulae one finds on the internet or in books are not safe
and frequently not even correct.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Dan[_12_]]

Steve Hix wrote:
> In article >, Dan >
> wrote:
>> An unexpectedly fast burning fuse can toast one's fingers while
>> testing. If you want to see a test of relative burn rates between
>> smokeless and black powders burn a spoonful of each. Use a blowtorch to
>> ignite the black powder. It will burn fast enough to extinguish the torch.
>
> And the amount of black powder that you light up can affect what it does.
>
> A bigger pile can blow up in your face instead of just a little puff.


Good point. A lot of people underestimate it because it's no longer
used for demolition, rock busting and the like. It's primary use now is
in "primitive arms" as some states call the black powder gun season. To
see how powerful black powder is go to an anvil launching contest
sometime. I don't know if there are any videos online. An 80 pound anvil
can be launched rather high by a tablespoon or two of black powder.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Andy Asberry[_2_]]

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 23:21:47 -0500, Dan > wrote:

>Steve Hix wrote:
>> In article >, Dan >
>> wrote:
>>> An unexpectedly fast burning fuse can toast one's fingers while
>>> testing. If you want to see a test of relative burn rates between
>>> smokeless and black powders burn a spoonful of each. Use a blowtorch to
>>> ignite the black powder. It will burn fast enough to extinguish the torch.
>>
>> And the amount of black powder that you light up can affect what it does.
>>
>> A bigger pile can blow up in your face instead of just a little puff.
>
>
> Good point. A lot of people underestimate it because it's no longer
>used for demolition, rock busting and the like. It's primary use now is
>in "primitive arms" as some states call the black powder gun season. To
>see how powerful black powder is go to an anvil launching contest
>sometime. I don't know if there are any videos online. An 80 pound anvil
>can be launched rather high by a tablespoon or two of black powder.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

www.recreationalexplosives.org

[Robert Bonomi]

In article >, Dan > wrote:
>Tech Support wrote:
>> On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:55:27 -0500, Dan > wrote:
>>
>>> Tech Support wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:01:02 -0500, Dan > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address) wrote:
>>>>>> Hello Walter,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for that link. I wasn't aware that it is on the web. My friend
>>>>>> didn't have the parts manual. He does have the 6 cylinder model, so that
>>>>>> information should be very useful to us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, it looks like your posting did appear in the newsgroup. I think
>>>>>> some newsgroup servers don't update very quickly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It looks like the messages on the newsgroup have migrated to a
>>>>>> discussion about explosives now :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>> You say that like it's a bad thing. Explosives can come in handy.
>>>>> Example your starter dies, hand propping isn't working and you want to
>>>>> crank the engine, just remove a spark plug, put a handful of black
>>>>> powder in the cylinder, insert fuse and rag to act as a plug, light fuse
>>>>> and hop in. Explosives can also be used for emergency tire inflation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>> **********************************************
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>>
>>>> Why can't you put in cylinder and use plug to light off????
>>>>
>>>> Big John
>>> I'm assuming the think won't turn over in the first place. If it can
>>> be turned enough to obtain a spark one can add saltpeter, sulfur,
>>> aluminum powder and confectioner's sugar in the proper proportions if
>>> one is out of black powder. Not that I know anything about the
>>> particulars, you understand.
>>>
>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>> ************************************************** *************************
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> As a teenager I used potasum clorate and sulpher.
>>
>> Poured a spot on cement and kicked with heel plate and went off.
>>
>> Also put in a CO2 cartridge and set off with home made fuse. Made a
>> powerful rocket (half a city block).
>>
>> How I ever survived growing up I don't know looking back.
>>
>> Big John
>
> Looking back I can see several occasions where I should have been
>injured or killed with some things I did. I proved launching a plastic
>model Saturn V is possible with off the shelf C engines. I also proved
>that didn't include going in the intended direction.

There was also the day the WAC Corporal got it's engine inserted
_backwards_. Hit the igniter, and "fffttt!!" the spurt from the
ejection charge _was_ enough to lift it off the launcher, and it
coasted straight up to about 15-20 ft in the air on the delay.

*Then* the main part of the engine lit off. Stopped dead in the
air and simply _shriveled_ into this oblong charcoal ash, that sort
of fell/drifted back to the ground.

After one got through the crying over the destruction, the memory was
good for some (bittersweet) laughs.