the trend is............

[Dan Silent[_2_]]

the trend is............MOTORGLIDERS

out of 100 ASG29 delivered 60 are motorgliders
90 pct of DG built are motorgliders
HPH Ltd will sell jets gliders to every lawyer and dentist!
Schempp-Hirth is doing nothing.....
Rolladen-Schneider out of business!
Lots of Sinuses, Tauruses, Apises all motorgliders.......
nothing else relevant worldwide!!!

ARE PURE GLIDERS ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION?

Daniel Scopel
Silent 2 Targa
C-GODY serial 2027
Volez souvent et soyez prudent.
http://pages. videotron. com/dscopel/

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 08:45 18 October 2008, Dan Silent wrote:
>the trend is............MOTORGLIDERS
>
>out of 100 ASG29 delivered 60 are motorgliders
>90 pct of DG built are motorgliders
>HPH Ltd will sell jets gliders to every lawyer and dentist!
>Schempp-Hirth is doing nothing.....
>Rolladen-Schneider out of business!
>Lots of Sinuses, Tauruses, Apises all motorgliders.......
>nothing else relevant worldwide!!!
>
>ARE PURE GLIDERS ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION?
>
>Daniel Scopel
>Silent 2 Targa
>C-GODY serial 2027
>Volez souvent et soyez prudent.
>http://pages. videotron. com/dscopel/
>

In what sense are Schemmp-Hirth (who build more gliders than anyone else)
"doing nothing"??

[Tim Ward[_1_]]

"Dan Silent" > wrote in message
...
> the trend is............MOTORGLIDERS
>
> out of 100 ASG29 delivered 60 are motorgliders
> 90 pct of DG built are motorgliders
> HPH Ltd will sell jets gliders to every lawyer and dentist!
> Schempp-Hirth is doing nothing.....
> Rolladen-Schneider out of business!
> Lots of Sinuses, Tauruses, Apises all motorgliders.......
> nothing else relevant worldwide!!!
>
> ARE PURE GLIDERS ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION?
>
> Daniel Scopel
> Silent 2 Targa
> C-GODY serial 2027
> Volez souvent et soyez prudent.
> http://pages. videotron. com/dscopel/
>

Yes, I'm afraid so. Little-known key components of the pure glider are
words in all caps, ellipses, and exclamation points. It's suspected that
the sudden scarcity of these components (and thus the inability to build
pure gliders) is the result of posters on Usenet exhausting the supply.

Tim Ward

[309]

On Oct 18, 4:11*pm, "Tim Ward" > wrote:
>
> ARE PURE GLIDERS ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION?
>

You just wouldn't listen to the Militant Band of 1-26 Pilots, would
you?!?!?!?

Of course, aluminum and fabric "pure" gliders should be around for a
long, long time...look at the precedent already set by tube-n-fabric
power planes!

When the last electron stops spinning, the savvy 1-26 pilot flies on
with calibrated posterior, a Winter or Sage mechanical vario...and a
Replogle barograph...

C'mon, you'll love being the pilot of an "antique fiberglass slipper"
when the pure glider is "extinct." Embrace the past...it actually IS
your future!

-Pete
#309

<insert diobolical laugh here for melodramatic effect>

[309]

>
> <insert diobolical laugh here for melodramatic effect>

Now I'm trying to remember where I put that damn turn point camera...

[Bruce]

On the Contrary.

Schleicher also make successful self launch and sustainer motor powered gliders - as you note.

Schempp-hirth has an interest in Lange Aviation, and is working on a number of innovative power plants.
There is a Jet sustainer Ventus available, the Oehler propeller sustainers are popular and I assume we can look forward
to electrical propulsion some time soon. They do not produce a self launch version of Discus and Duo Discus.

In a lot of places, like where I fly the self launch can get marginal with high density altitude.

I went with a sustainer engine, because I can see where the market is going, but in many ways I would prefer the pure
glider. At the same price I could chose between a heavy handling self launcher, a somewhat cheaper ultralight self
launcher with lower performance and a DuoDiscus with sustainer.

Many options all of them finding customers. .


Dan Silent wrote:
> the trend is............MOTORGLIDERS
>
> out of 100 ASG29 delivered 60 are motorgliders
> 90 pct of DG built are motorgliders
> HPH Ltd will sell jets gliders to every lawyer and dentist!
> Schempp-Hirth is doing nothing.....
> Rolladen-Schneider out of business!
> Lots of Sinuses, Tauruses, Apises all motorgliders.......
> nothing else relevant worldwide!!!
>
> ARE PURE GLIDERS ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION?
>
> Daniel Scopel
> Silent 2 Targa
> C-GODY serial 2027
> Volez souvent et soyez prudent.
> http://pages. videotron. com/dscopel/
>

[Jim White[_2_]]

Let us be careful not to propagate the myth that aeroplanes fitted with
engines are gliders.

Jim


At 07:52 19 October 2008, Bruce wrote:
>On the Contrary.
>
>Schleicher also make successful self launch and sustainer motor powered
>gliders - as you note.
>
>Schempp-hirth has an interest in Lange Aviation, and is working on a
>number of innovative power plants.
>There is a Jet sustainer Ventus available, the Oehler propeller
sustainers
>are popular and I assume we can look forward
>to electrical propulsion some time soon. They do not produce a self
launch
>version of Discus and Duo Discus.
>
>In a lot of places, like where I fly the self launch can get marginal
with
>high density altitude.
>
>I went with a sustainer engine, because I can see where the market is
>going, but in many ways I would prefer the pure
>glider. At the same price I could chose between a heavy handling self
>launcher, a somewhat cheaper ultralight self
>launcher with lower performance and a DuoDiscus with sustainer.
>
>Many options all of them finding customers. .
>
>
>Dan Silent wrote:
>> the trend is............MOTORGLIDERS
>>
>> out of 100 ASG29 delivered 60 are motorgliders
>> 90 pct of DG built are motorgliders
>> HPH Ltd will sell jets gliders to every lawyer and dentist!
>> Schempp-Hirth is doing nothing.....
>> Rolladen-Schneider out of business!
>> Lots of Sinuses, Tauruses, Apises all motorgliders.......
>> nothing else relevant worldwide!!!
>>
>> ARE PURE GLIDERS ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION?
>>
>> Daniel Scopel
>> Silent 2 Targa
>> C-GODY serial 2027
>> Volez souvent et soyez prudent.
>> http://pages. videotron. com/dscopel/
>>
>

[Brad[_2_]]

As a bottom feeder in the economic food chain, when all gliders that
are flying are motorgliders, I'll be looking at all the pictures I
took when I used to be able to fly a non-powered sailplane. Since it
will be somewhat impossible for me to ever afford a powered sailplane.

No complaints, just an honest asessment.

Brad

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 08:18:10 -0700, Brad wrote:

> As a bottom feeder in the economic food chain, when all gliders that are
> flying are motorgliders, I'll be looking at all the pictures I took when
> I used to be able to fly a non-powered sailplane. Since it will be
> somewhat impossible for me to ever afford a powered sailplane.
>
> No complaints, just an honest asessment.
>
Move near to a winching site and you'll have the last laugh as fuel
prices go sky high.

I know places where you can winch straight into wave....


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Robert Danewid]

Since two years I own an ASW 28-18E and since May I have a share in an
ASH 26E.

My experience is that I get more pure gliding hours today than I did 2
years ago when I was flying my good old H304 (which I flew for 20 years).

If you can afford it, SSG/SLG will certainly give you more pure gliding
hours than a pure glider.

"Cheating"? Certainly, but it comes with age I think. When I was 20 I
could not belive that 30 years later I will be flying a glider with a
noisy engine on my back and that - most terrible of all - there will be
a slight smell of gasoline in the cockpit. At that time it was quite
common to make 2 outlandings on teh same day.

SSG/SLG is a good thing for those of us that wants to glide more because
now we can afford it.

Certainly pure gliders is certainly not on the brink of extinction! But
for some of us fortunate guys who can afford it, today we have SSG and
SLG to make life easier.

Robert
ASW28-18E RD
ASH 26E JA
(and former owner of a Jantar Std, ASW 19B and a beautiful Glasflügel 304)




Dan Silent skrev:
> the trend is............MOTORGLIDERS
>
> out of 100 ASG29 delivered 60 are motorgliders
> 90 pct of DG built are motorgliders
> HPH Ltd will sell jets gliders to every lawyer and dentist!
> Schempp-Hirth is doing nothing.....
> Rolladen-Schneider out of business!
> Lots of Sinuses, Tauruses, Apises all motorgliders.......
> nothing else relevant worldwide!!!
>
> ARE PURE GLIDERS ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION?
>
> Daniel Scopel
> Silent 2 Targa
> C-GODY serial 2027
> Volez souvent et soyez prudent.
> http://pages. videotron. com/dscopel/
>

[Hal[_2_]]

On Oct 19, 2:17*pm, Robert Danewid >
wrote:
> Since two years I own an ASW 28-18E and since May I have a share in an
> ASH 26E.
>
> My experience is that I get more pure gliding hours today than I did 2
> years ago when I was flying my good old H304 (which I flew for 20 years).
>
> If you can afford it, SSG/SLG will certainly give you more pure gliding
> hours than a pure glider.
>
> "Cheating"? Certainly, but it comes with age I think. When I was 20 I
> could not belive that 30 years later I will be flying a glider with a
> noisy engine on my back and that - most terrible of all - there will *be
> a slight smell of gasoline in the cockpit. At that time it was quite
> common to make 2 outlandings on teh same day.
>
> SSG/SLG is a good thing for those of us that wants to glide more because
> now we can afford it.
>
> Certainly pure gliders is certainly not on the brink of extinction! But
> for some of us fortunate guys who can afford it, today we have SSG and
> SLG to make life easier.
>
> Robert
> ASW28-18E *RD
> ASH 26E JA
> (and former owner of a Jantar Std, ASW 19B and a beautiful Glasflügel 304)
>
> Dan Silent skrev:
>
>
>
> > the trend is............MOTORGLIDERS
>
> > out of 100 ASG29 delivered 60 are motorgliders
> > 90 pct of DG built are motorgliders
> > HPH Ltd will sell jets gliders to every lawyer and dentist!
> > Schempp-Hirth is doing nothing.....
> > Rolladen-Schneider out of business!
> > Lots of Sinuses, Tauruses, Apises all motorgliders.......
> > nothing else relevant worldwide!!!
>
> > ARE PURE GLIDERS ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION?
>
> > Daniel Scopel
> > Silent 2 Targa
> > C-GODY serial 2027
> > Volez souvent et soyez prudent.
> >http://pages. videotron. com/dscopel/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

If I travel to the nearest gliderport it is 2+ hours in each direction
if I launch out of the local airport with my motor glider it is a 15
minute trip. If I am flying cross country with no crew (norm for me)
I can afford to go farther with a greater chance of getting home. A
motor glider is a wonderful thing if you can afford it. Still my hat
is off to the pure glider pilots who make great flights using only
mother nature.

[Uncle Fuzzy]

On Oct 19, 2:17*pm, Robert Danewid >
wrote:
> Since two years I own an ASW 28-18E and since May I have a share in an
> ASH 26E.
>
> My experience is that I get more pure gliding hours today than I did 2
> years ago when I was flying my good old H304 (which I flew for 20 years).
>
> If you can afford it, SSG/SLG will certainly give you more pure gliding
> hours than a pure glider.
>
> "Cheating"? Certainly, but it comes with age I think. When I was 20 I
> could not belive that 30 years later I will be flying a glider with a
> noisy engine on my back and that - most terrible of all - there will *be
> a slight smell of gasoline in the cockpit. At that time it was quite
> common to make 2 outlandings on teh same day.
>
> SSG/SLG is a good thing for those of us that wants to glide more because
> now we can afford it.
>
> Certainly pure gliders is certainly not on the brink of extinction! But
> for some of us fortunate guys who can afford it, today we have SSG and
> SLG to make life easier.
>
> Robert
> ASW28-18E *RD
> ASH 26E JA
> (and former owner of a Jantar Std, ASW 19B and a beautiful Glasflügel 304)
>
> Dan Silent skrev:
>
>
>
> > the trend is............MOTORGLIDERS
>
> > out of 100 ASG29 delivered 60 are motorgliders
> > 90 pct of DG built are motorgliders
> > HPH Ltd will sell jets gliders to every lawyer and dentist!
> > Schempp-Hirth is doing nothing.....
> > Rolladen-Schneider out of business!
> > Lots of Sinuses, Tauruses, Apises all motorgliders.......
> > nothing else relevant worldwide!!!
>
> > ARE PURE GLIDERS ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION?
>
> > Daniel Scopel
> > Silent 2 Targa
> > C-GODY serial 2027
> > Volez souvent et soyez prudent.
> >http://pages. videotron. com/dscopel/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Fortunately I can't afford a new glider of any kind, so I'm spared the
anguish of searching for a new 'pure' glider. I'll have to continue
enduring the 100+ hours a year I soar with my 30 year old Speed
Astir. Damn the luck.

[bumper]

"Robert Danewid" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cheating"? Certainly, but it comes with age I think. When I was 20 I
> could not belive that 30 years later I will be flying a glider with a
> noisy engine on my back and that - most terrible of all - there will be a
> slight smell of gasoline in the cockpit. At that time it was quite common
> to make 2 outlandings on teh same day.

>
> Robert
> ASW28-18E RD
> ASH 26E JA
> (and former owner of a Jantar Std, ASW 19B and a beautiful Glasflügel 304)
>



Cheating?

After careful observation, I've determined that all 100% of successful
raptors are of the self-launch variety. Many of them will also revert to
motoring home in a pinch.

What could be more natural than a SLG? "Pure" gliders are disabled.

bumper
ASH26E
Quiet Vent and MKII "high tech" yaw string"

[[email protected]]

Bumper says "Pure" gliders are disabled."

I would concur, but the disability has little to do with the motor and
much to do with the pilot(s) of said machines :)

[Eric Greenwell]

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 08:18:10 -0700, Brad wrote:
>
>> As a bottom feeder in the economic food chain, when all gliders that are
>> flying are motorgliders, I'll be looking at all the pictures I took when
>> I used to be able to fly a non-powered sailplane. Since it will be
>> somewhat impossible for me to ever afford a powered sailplane.
>>
>> No complaints, just an honest asessment.
>>
> Move near to a winching site and you'll have the last laugh as fuel
> prices go sky high.

Doesn't a winch launch use more fuel than a self-launch? And won't the
fuel he uses to commute to work eat into any savings from winch launching?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[[email protected]]

>
> Doesn't a winch launch use more fuel than a self-launch? And won't the
> fuel he uses to commute to work eat into any savings from winch launching?
>
> --


Eric

We average 1/2 liter of fuel per winch launch. This has been the
average over the last 10 years. We launch from a 1000 meter field and
get 350-400 meter launches.
We launch everything from K8's to Nimbus 3DT's. The consumption goes
up if you are only launching double seaters but overall 1/2 liter per
launch is the average.

Bob

[Eric Greenwell]

wrote:
>> Doesn't a winch launch use more fuel than a self-launch? And won't the
>> fuel he uses to commute to work eat into any savings from winch launching?
>>
>> --
>
> We average 1/2 liter of fuel per winch launch. This has been the
> average over the last 10 years. We launch from a 1000 meter field and
> get 350-400 meter launches.
> We launch everything from K8's to Nimbus 3DT's. The consumption goes
> up if you are only launching double seaters but overall 1/2 liter per
> launch is the average.

That's really good! My ASH 26 E uses a little more than that for the
same launch height, but not much more. It does save me about 10 gallons
of auto fuel when I fly, because I can fly from the local airport
instead of driving to the nearest gliderport.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Bill Daniels]

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>>> Doesn't a winch launch use more fuel than a self-launch? And won't the
>>> fuel he uses to commute to work eat into any savings from winch
>>> launching?
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> We average 1/2 liter of fuel per winch launch. This has been the
>> average over the last 10 years. We launch from a 1000 meter field and
>> get 350-400 meter launches.
>> We launch everything from K8's to Nimbus 3DT's. The consumption goes
>> up if you are only launching double seaters but overall 1/2 liter per
>> launch is the average.
>
> That's really good! My ASH 26 E uses a little more than that for the same
> launch height, but not much more. It does save me about 10 gallons of auto
> fuel when I fly, because I can fly from the local airport instead of
> driving to the nearest gliderport.
>

Your self launcher is limited to just launching you. A winch can launch
anybody with a CG hook. It looks likely that competitively priced electric
winches will be possible which use only around 1 KWH per launch. That's
less than 10 cents most places.

If the new EPA lead polution rules eliminate 100LL, local airports may open
up for winch launch since a large fraction of the piston fleet will be
grounded or forced to use prohibitively expensive fuel. Most non-jet
airports are seeing a significant drop in flight operations.

I can see both self launchers and winch launch increasing at the expense of
aero tow operations.

[[email protected]]

On Oct 21, 4:46*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> wrote:
> >> Doesn't a winch launch use more fuel than a self-launch? And won't the
> >> fuel he uses to commute to work eat into any savings from winch launching?
>
> >> --
>
> > We average 1/2 liter of fuel per winch launch. This has been the
> > average over the last 10 years. We launch from a 1000 meter field and
> > get 350-400 meter launches.
> > We launch everything from K8's to Nimbus 3DT's. The consumption goes
> > up if you are only launching double seaters but overall 1/2 liter per
> > launch is the average.
>
> That's really good! My ASH 26 E uses a little more than that for the
> same launch height, but not much more. It does save me about 10 gallons
> of auto fuel when I fly, because I can fly from the local airport
> instead of driving to the nearest gliderport.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> * Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * * * New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more
>
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

Eric

What is your average fuel consumption per launch? You have warmup time
and taxi time and such. I asked on of our flyers with a DG800 what he
uses and he averages about 3 liters per launch over time.
Of course when I asked the Antares pilot what his fuel consumption
average was he just laughed! Some guys just don't want to contribute
to scientific study!!!

Bob

[Eric Greenwell]

Bill Daniels wrote:

>> That's really good! My ASH 26 E uses a little more than that for the same
>> launch height, but not much more. It does save me about 10 gallons of auto
>> fuel when I fly, because I can fly from the local airport instead of
>> driving to the nearest gliderport.
>>
>
> Your self launcher is limited to just launching you.

Yes, and that's true of almost all self-launchers in the USA. It's
different in Europe, where a lot of self-launchers are owned by clubs
and partnerships, so each self-launcher might launch 5 to 10 pilots many
times over the course of a year. Multiple owners really makes good use
of the flexibility of a self-launcher, while greatly reducing the cost
of ownership. I've promoted partnerships for self-launchers in the USA,
but it remains rare.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Michael Ash]

> wrote:
> Bumper says "Pure" gliders are disabled."
>
> I would concur, but the disability has little to do with the motor and
> much to do with the pilot(s) of said machines :)

Yes. We are financially disabled!

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

[Jim White[_3_]]

At 14:46 21 October 2008, Eric Greenwell wrote:

>It does save me about 10 gallons
>of auto fuel when I fly, because I can fly from the local airport
>instead of driving to the nearest gliderport.
>
>
>--
>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
>* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
jeez Eric, what do you drive? I get over 400 miles out of 10 gallons of
fuel in my car! But I am glad that you are saving the planet. That must be
masses of CO2 per launch saved.

Jim

[DRN]

On Oct 21, 11:43*am, " >
wrote:
> uses and he averages about 3 liters per launch over time.
> Of course when I asked the Antares pilot what his fuel consumption
> average was he just laughed! Some guys just don't want to contribute
> to scientific study!!!
>
> Bob

Reminds me - I need to send my plane a text message to top up the
batteries, 'cause I want to go flying later this week...
See ya, Dave "YO electric"

[Cats]

On Oct 21, 4:15*pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
<snip>
>
> Your self launcher is limited to just launching you. *A winch can launch
> anybody with a CG hook. *It looks likely that competitively priced electric
> winches will be possible which use only around 1 KWH per launch. *That's
> less than 10 cents most places.
<snip>

For the electricity, but the cost of launches will be more as
maintenance and depreciation will have to be covered, as might the
cost of getting a power supply to all the places the winch might be
(I've seen 4 distinct locations where I fly, with two of them having a
number of variations - we try to get a straight into-wind launch) and
also wages for clubs which have paid winch drivers.

[Eric Greenwell]

Jim White wrote:
> At 14:46 21 October 2008, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
>> It does save me about 10 gallons
>> of auto fuel when I fly, because I can fly from the local airport
>> instead of driving to the nearest gliderport.
>>
> jeez Eric, what do you drive? I get over 400 miles out of 10 gallons of
> fuel in my car! But I am glad that you are saving the planet. That must be
> masses of CO2 per launch saved.

My old Dodge Grand Caravan gets about 20 mpg (@ 60 mph) when towing my
2400 pound Cobra trailer. If I really had to fly from Ephrata, the
closest place with a tow, I'd probably leave the glider there most of
the time during the season and drive up in my 2002 Camry; however, even
with it's 4 cylinder engine, it won't get 40 mpg at 60-70 mph.

I am looking forward to the plug-in hybrids coming the next year or two,
or even an electric car.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Eric Greenwell]

wrote:
> On Oct 21, 4:46 pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>> wrote:
>>>> Doesn't a winch launch use more fuel than a self-launch? And won't the
>>>> fuel he uses to commute to work eat into any savings from winch launching?
>>>> --
>>> We average 1/2 liter of fuel per winch launch. This has been the
>>> average over the last 10 years. We launch from a 1000 meter field and
>>> get 350-400 meter launches.
>>> We launch everything from K8's to Nimbus 3DT's. The consumption goes
>>> up if you are only launching double seaters but overall 1/2 liter per
>>> launch is the average.
>> That's really good! My ASH 26 E uses a little more than that for the
>> same launch height, but not much more. It does save me about 10 gallons
>> of auto fuel when I fly, because I can fly from the local airport
>> instead of driving to the nearest gliderport.

>
> What is your average fuel consumption per launch? You have warmup time
> and taxi time and such. I asked on of our flyers with a DG800 what he
> uses and he averages about 3 liters per launch over time.

I estimate, but have never carefully measured, that I use 2 liters to
taxi about 1500 feet and launch to 2000' agl. The Wankel is more fuel
efficient than the two-strokes, so 3 liters sounds right for the DG 800.

> Of course when I asked the Antares pilot what his fuel consumption
> average was he just laughed! Some guys just don't want to contribute
> to scientific study!

The Antares pilot I know uses far more fuel to taxi and launch than I
do, because he charges the glider with a portable, gasoline fueled
generator (at least at contests and camps - not sure what he does at
home). Ironic, eh?

I could live with that, if someone gave me an Antares.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Bruce]

Now, now Eric.

A launch uses less than 800ml (< 1 quart) of petrol on our prehistoric inefficient Ford V8 powered winch. That is an
average over decades of use...

That gives around 1300 to 1700 feet AGL depending on wind, aircraft and skill - add some fuel for the retrieve and you
are still around 1 litre per launch with our winch (almost exclusively big heavy old two seaters). Newer multi drum
designs are a lot better.

I expect the average self launcher is using a lot more than that to get to the first thermal. Average engine time is
apparently around 5 minutes. (Schleicher figure)

Assume you have a strong SLMG say an ASH26 which claims 3.4m/s climb. You need 2.7 minutes of full power climb + run up
+ ground run + shut down to end at the same height.
The AE50R is relatively fuel efficient, (most SLMGs are two strokes) but it is still developing around 37kw for 4-5
minutes. Max power at 6900RPM uses 16 litres in 75 minutes - so five tach minutes gives you 1.06 litres.

Remarkably similar to a winch.

Just my bit of matchbox arithmetic - I assume you have actual fuel consumption numbers?

Of course the bottom line is that the fuel used in either launch mode is far exceeded by the trip to the airfield for
almost everyone, and is negligible in comparison to the work commute. My 216km round trip to the glider field uses
around 18l if I am VERY well behaved.

I find that the economy on my work commute is exceptional when I work from home.

Bruce

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 08:18:10 -0700, Brad wrote:
>>
>>> As a bottom feeder in the economic food chain, when all gliders that are
>>> flying are motorgliders, I'll be looking at all the pictures I took when
>>> I used to be able to fly a non-powered sailplane. Since it will be
>>> somewhat impossible for me to ever afford a powered sailplane.
>>>
>>> No complaints, just an honest asessment.
>>>
>> Move near to a winching site and you'll have the last laugh as fuel
>> prices go sky high.
>
> Doesn't a winch launch use more fuel than a self-launch? And won't the
> fuel he uses to commute to work eat into any savings from winch launching?
>

[DRN]

On Oct 21, 1:36*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> The Antares pilot I know uses far more fuel to taxi and launch than I
> do, because he charges the glider with a portable, gasoline fueled
> generator (at least at contests and camps - not sure what he does at
> home). Ironic, eh?
>
> I could live with that, if someone gave me an Antares.

At the two nationals I flew at this year, I was able to find a parking
space near an outlet and didn't use the generator... At home it is
plugged in. The generator is only for especially rustic sites...
See ya, Dave "YO electric"

[Bill Daniels]

"Cats" > wrote in message
...
On Oct 21, 4:15 pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
<snip>
>
> Your self launcher is limited to just launching you. A winch can launch
> anybody with a CG hook. It looks likely that competitively priced electric
> winches will be possible which use only around 1 KWH per launch. That's
> less than 10 cents most places.
<snip>

For the electricity, but the cost of launches will be more as
maintenance and depreciation will have to be covered,
_______
Of course. But all inclusive maintenance is not likely to exceed $2/launch.
Still very cheap.
_______
as might the cost of getting a power supply to all the places the winch
might be
(I've seen 4 distinct locations where I fly, with two of them having a
number of variations - we try to get a straight into-wind launch)
_______
Most proposals include a ~20KW genset to charge up a high power
density(LiFePo4 or ultracapacitors) battery pack between launches. The
battery pack acts as a buffer to store enough energy for 40 seconds or so of
maximum power. Think hybrid automobiles.

Of course, if you can connect with the grid, the genset wouldn't be used.
The grid connection needen't be extremely robust since it only needs to
supply average power over multiple launches, not peak power. The grid
connection would be determined by the launch rate you want.
_______
and also wages for clubs which have paid winch drivers.
_______

These are likely to be extremely automated winches so I wouldn't pay a winch
driver very much - if anything. Professional winch drivers are likely to go
extinct the way elevator (Lift?) operators did.

[toad]

On Oct 19, 4:56*pm, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
>
> Move near to a winching site and you'll have the last laugh as fuel
> prices go sky high.
>
> I know places where you can winch straight into wave....
>
> --
> martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org * * * |

I would have to move at least 1000 miles, and probably across the
Atlantic ocean to get near a winch launch site. If gas gets stupid
expensive, I'll have to switch to sailboats, cause I live right on the
water.

Todd Smith
3S

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:29:16 -0600, Bill Daniels wrote:

> Most proposals include a ~20KW genset to charge up a high power
> density(LiFePo4 or ultracapacitors) battery pack between launches. The
> battery pack acts as a buffer to store enough energy for 40 seconds or
> so of maximum power. Think hybrid automobiles.
>
Anybody know the fuel consumption of such a gen set?

FWIW the German ESW-2B Electrowinde, which uses truck batteries to buffer
a 220 kW launch motor, needs a 12kW to 20kW mains feed, so a fairly small
trailer genset would do the trick. We looked at the economics of using
one and decided that the cost of cabling the field was prohibitive, but
IIRC we estimated the operating cost per launch to be about GBP 0.80 at
British electricity costs, or around $US 1.50 - not a lot.

> These are likely to be extremely automated winches so I wouldn't pay a
> winch driver very much - if anything. Professional winch drivers are
> likely to go extinct the way elevator (Lift?) operators did.
>
Point, but if the club is operating 7 days a week with almost continuous
training courses you need a paid winch driver no matter how easy the
winch is to operate.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Frank Whiteley]

On Oct 21, 2:15*pm, toad > wrote:
> On Oct 19, 4:56*pm, Martin Gregorie
>
> > wrote:
>
> > Move near to a winching site and you'll have the last laugh as fuel
> > prices go sky high.
>
> > I know places where you can winch straight into wave....
>
> > --
> > martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> > gregorie. | Essex, UK
> > org * * * |
>
> I would have to move at least 1000 miles, and probably across the
> Atlantic ocean to get near a winch launch site. *If gas gets stupid
> expensive, I'll have to switch to sailboats, cause I live right on the
> water.
>
> Todd Smith
> 3S
1000miles? probably not

From you
Dansville, NY 333mi
Perkasie, PA 173mi
North Adams, MA 127mi (still listed on web site, but not sure of
current winch status though)

[toad]

On Oct 21, 4:32*pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Oct 21, 2:15*pm, toad > wrote:
>
> > On Oct 19, 4:56*pm, Martin Gregorie
>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > Move near to a winching site and you'll have the last laugh as fuel
> > > prices go sky high.
>
> > > I know places where you can winch straight into wave....
>
> > > --
> > > martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> > > gregorie. | Essex, UK
> > > org * * * |
>
> > I would have to move at least 1000 miles, and probably across the
> > Atlantic ocean to get near a winch launch site. *If gas gets stupid
> > expensive, I'll have to switch to sailboats, cause I live right on the
> > water.
>
> > Todd Smith
> > 3S
>
> 1000miles? probably not
>
> From you
> Dansville, NY 333mi

I'll check it out.

> Perkasie, PA 173mi

I think the PGC didn't use their winch very much and might not have it
anymore.

> North Adams, MA 127mi (still listed on web site, but not sure of
> current winch status though)

Does not use their winch very often.

I have actively looked for places to get winch training in the eastern
US. Preferably in a concentrated manor. The only place that I found
was in Texas !

Then I heard a rumor that Bermuda High does a "winch week" in the
spring. But I can't find any mention of winch on their training page.

If anyone has direct knowledge of an active winch operation that does
training in the east US, please let me know.

Todd Smith
3S

[Bill Daniels]

"Martin Gregorie" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:29:16 -0600, Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>> Most proposals include a ~20KW genset to charge up a high power
>> density(LiFePo4 or ultracapacitors) battery pack between launches. The
>> battery pack acts as a buffer to store enough energy for 40 seconds or
>> so of maximum power. Think hybrid automobiles.
>>
> Anybody know the fuel consumption of such a gen set?
>
> FWIW the German ESW-2B Electrowinde, which uses truck batteries to buffer
> a 220 kW launch motor, needs a 12kW to 20kW mains feed, so a fairly small
> trailer genset would do the trick. We looked at the economics of using
> one and decided that the cost of cabling the field was prohibitive, but
> IIRC we estimated the operating cost per launch to be about GBP 0.80 at
> British electricity costs, or around $US 1.50 - not a lot.
>
>> These are likely to be extremely automated winches so I wouldn't pay a
>> winch driver very much - if anything. Professional winch drivers are
>> likely to go extinct the way elevator (Lift?) operators did.
>>
> Point, but if the club is operating 7 days a week with almost continuous
> training courses you need a paid winch driver no matter how easy the
> winch is to operate.
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

I've been impressed with the ESW-2B but the wet cell lead acid batteries are
problematic. They're relatively cheap to begin with but the replacement
costs come every 5 years or so. You need 50 of them just to get the power
output high enough. The charge/discharge efficiency isn't great either.
LiFePo4 batteries are more expensive but they are much more efficient and
last far longer. The power density means you don't need nearly as many of
them. Now if EESTOR's ultracaps actually work as advertized....

I'd get a diesel genset and run it on waste vegitable oil from a deep fryer
(homemade biodiesel) just for the greenwash effect and the nice smell.

[jcarlyle]

PGC does have a winch and it is used weekly. Earlier this year winch
sessions were on Saturday afternoons, and lately they've been on
Thursday nights. Several pilots have become winch qualified this year.

-John

toad wrote:
> I think the PGC didn't use their winch very much and might not have it
> anymore.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Oct 21, 2:49*pm, toad > wrote:
> On Oct 21, 4:32*pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 21, 2:15*pm, toad > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 19, 4:56*pm, Martin Gregorie
>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > Move near to a winching site and you'll have the last laugh as fuel
> > > > prices go sky high.
>
> > > > I know places where you can winch straight into wave....
>
> > > > --
> > > > martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> > > > gregorie. | Essex, UK
> > > > org * * * |
>
> > > I would have to move at least 1000 miles, and probably across the
> > > Atlantic ocean to get near a winch launch site. *If gas gets stupid
> > > expensive, I'll have to switch to sailboats, cause I live right on the
> > > water.
>
> > > Todd Smith
> > > 3S
>
> > 1000miles? probably not
>
> > From you
> > Dansville, NY 333mi
>
> I'll check it out.
>
> > Perkasie, PA 173mi
>
> I think the PGC didn't use their winch very much and might not have it
> anymore.
>
> > North Adams, MA 127mi (still listed on web site, but not sure of
> > current winch status though)
>
> Does not use their winch very often.
>
> I have actively looked for places to get winch training in the eastern
> US. Preferably in a concentrated manor. *The only place that I found
> was in Texas !
>
> Then I heard a rumor that Bermuda High does a "winch week" in the
> spring. *But I can't find any mention of winch on their training page.
>
> If anyone has direct knowledge of an active winch operation that does
> training in the east US, please let me know.
>
> Todd Smith
> 3S

PGC sold their old winch to Finger Lakes and bought the Lawler winch
from Memphis. Whether it's in regular use, I have no idea.
www.crosscountrysoaring.com in Minnesota is a commercial operation
with a winch now on the menu although they will be standing down on
training about now for the winter. Recently 2500agl was achieved.

Frank

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:15:43 -0700, toad wrote:

> On Oct 19, 4:56Â*pm, Martin Gregorie
> > wrote:
>>
>> I know places where you can winch straight into wave....
>>
The nicest one I know was several years ago at Portmoak (Scotland), in
the days when glider fuselages were doped canvas over steel tube and
wood. I was told this story during a recent visit which, alas, got me no
wave climbs though the ridge was fun for this flatland pilot.

An older pilot took a winch launch, noticed weak wave at release and sat
there, going slowly but surely up above the winch, eventually
disappearing upwards. The next few gliders to launch headed for the
ridge, missing the wave.

Eventually our pilot reappeared and landed. He was apparently a stroppy
guy and was quite loud about the idiots who'd headed for the ridge
instead of seeing and following him. Anyway, when asked how high he'd
got, he said "18,000 feet". People knew his altimeter was dodgy and asked
how he decided when to come down. His reply was that when his cigarette
went out for the third time he knew he was high enough!

> If gas gets stupid expensive,
>
I was thinking as much about the disappearance of 100LL avgas as what it
might cost in future.

If auto gas also gets costly commuting habits may have to change.
Consider the joys living by the gliding club and teleworking from purpose-
built office space at the field.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:57:19 -0600, Bill Daniels wrote:

> LiFePo4 batteries are more expensive but they are much
> more efficient and last far longer.
>
That's certainly what's said, but I don't think they've been around long
enough for anybody to have measured their life under actual working
conditions. I know that Lange are now quoting 4500 charge/discharge
cycles, but I also know that their battery has a LOT of of computing
power monitoring down to the individual cell level and that the battery
looks modular enough for dud cells to be replaced fairly easily. That
system has to make a considerable difference to battery life, because a
lot of phone batteries die long before the often quoted 1000 cycles:
under 400 seems nearer the mark.

> Now if EESTOR's ultracaps actually work as advertized....
>
Yes, they should be better than any battery when used as buffer storage.
Discharge rate limited only by the connecting cables and no chemical
cycling to limit the working life.

> I'd get a diesel genset and run it on waste vegitable oil from a deep
> fryer (homemade biodiesel) just for the greenwash effect and the nice
> smell.
>
The smell may become a drag, but otherwise top marks for that thought!

The first mainframe I worked on had its aircon intake rather too close to
the extractor vent of the local chippie. About 11:00 each morning the
computer room was suddenly suffused with the smell of hot, fishy oil as
they fired up to be ready for the lunch-time rush. The novelty soon wore
off.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[toad]

John and Frank,

Thanks for the info, I'll check them both out.

Todd

[Cats]

On Oct 21, 8:29*pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> "Cats" > wrote in message
<snip>
> and also wages for clubs which have paid winch drivers.
> _______
>
> These are likely to be extremely automated winches so I wouldn't pay a winch
> driver very much - if anything. *Professional winch drivers are likely to go
> extinct the way elevator (Lift?) operators did.

My life is much more in the hands of a winch driver than a lift
operator. If something goes wrong (and eventually it will), doing the
wrong thing at the winch end can be potentially fatal. It also gets
rid of the problems of whose ever turn it is to drive the winch not
turning up, finding it's your turn on the day of the month/year/
decade, and the abuse equipment seems to take at the hands of club
members.

[Cats]

On Oct 21, 9:29*pm, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:29:16 -0600, Bill Daniels wrote:
<snip>
>
> > These are likely to be extremely automated winches so I wouldn't pay a
> > winch driver very much - if anything. *Professional winch drivers are
> > likely to go extinct the way elevator (Lift?) operators did.
>
> Point, but if the club is operating 7 days a week with almost continuous
> training courses you need a paid winch driver no matter how easy the
> winch is to operate.

If the club is that active then you need 2 or 3 paid winch drivers.
Ours do a lot of other work when it's not flying weather, and one of
them will be a Glider Inspector soon as well.

[Welsh Druid]

>
>> On Oct 19, 4:56 pm, Martin Gregorie
>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> I know places where you can winch straight into wave....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I know a place where you can catapult ( bungee) launch straight into wave.
I just checked my log book and there were 17 occasions when I did this (
Olympia 2b, Dart 17r and Kestrel 19)| - 4 of these were climbs above gold
height, best being 18500ft above launch. Now thats the way to go !!!!!

[Cats]

On Oct 22, 8:45*am, "Welsh Druid" > wrote:
> >> On Oct 19, 4:56 pm, Martin Gregorie
> >> > wrote:
>
> >>> I know places where you can winch straight into wave....
>
> I know a place where you can catapult ( bungee) launch straight into wave..
> I just checked my log book and there were 17 occasions when I did this (
> Olympia 2b, Dart 17r and Kestrel 19)| - *4 of these were climbs above gold
> height, best being 18500ft above launch. *Now thats the way to go !!!!!

Next of all someone will know where they could launch from a kerb
straight into wave and do a Diamond height in a Primary Glider!

[sisu1a]

> I know a place where you can catapult ( bungee) launch straight into wave..
> I just checked my log book and there were 17 occasions when I did this (
> Olympia 2b, Dart 17r and Kestrel 19)| - *4 of these were climbs above gold
> height, best being 18500ft above launch. *Now thats the way to go !!!!!

Ever tried to buy one of those big rubber bands lately? They were over
$8,000 apiece for a smallish one some years ago, when gas was cheap
and the exchange rate was favorable...I would love to find a place I
could do it none the less though!

Perhaps even greener than a bungee launch though, is a rolling gravity
launch (rolling into the wind, down a hill steeper than your glider's
L/D...). See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwVRLw7TD5I --Apis
Gravity Launch and also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klkFmT1WFs4&feature=related --Polish
Vid w/PW-6 Gravity Launch in Middle

-Paul

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:13:29 -0700, Cats wrote:

> On Oct 22, 8:45Â*am, "Welsh Druid" > wrote:
>> >> On Oct 19, 4:56 pm, Martin Gregorie
>> >> > wrote:
>>
>> >>> I know places where you can winch straight into wave....
>>
>> I know a place where you can catapult ( bungee) launch straight into
>> wave. I just checked my log book and there were 17 occasions when I did
>> this ( Olympia 2b, Dart 17r and Kestrel 19)| - Â*4 of these were climbs
>> above gold height, best being 18500ft above launch. Â*Now thats the way
>> to go !!!!!
>
> Next of all someone will know where they could launch from a kerb
> straight into wave and do a Diamond height in a Primary Glider!
>
Luxury! We used to dream of having a kerb when I were a lad...


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Don Johnstone[_3_]]

At 00:08 22 October 2008, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:15:43 -0700, toad wrote:
>
>> On Oct 19, 4:56Â*pm, Martin Gregorie
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I know places where you can winch straight into wave....
>>>
>The nicest one I know was several years ago at Portmoak (Scotland), in
>the days when glider fuselages were doped canvas over steel tube and
>wood. I was told this story during a recent visit which, alas, got me no

>wave climbs though the ridge was fun for this flatland pilot.
>
>An older pilot took a winch launch, noticed weak wave at release and sat

>there, going slowly but surely up above the winch, eventually
>disappearing upwards. The next few gliders to launch headed for the
>ridge, missing the wave.
>
>Eventually our pilot reappeared and landed. He was apparently a stroppy
>guy and was quite loud about the idiots who'd headed for the ridge
>instead of seeing and following him. Anyway, when asked how high he'd
>got, he said "18,000 feet". People knew his altimeter was dodgy and
asked
>how he decided when to come down. His reply was that when his cigarette
>went out for the third time he knew he was high enough!

Yep, Polish Joe in his LSpatz, I was there when this happened. Sadly Joe
died last year after many years at Portmoak. He once winch launched me in
a K13 where the cable was paying out faster in the second half of the
launch than it was going in on the first half. Scary stuff

[Cats]

On Oct 22, 9:51*pm, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:13:29 -0700, Cats wrote:
> > On Oct 22, 8:45*am, "Welsh Druid" > wrote:
> >> >> On Oct 19, 4:56 pm, Martin Gregorie
> >> >> > wrote:
>
> >> >>> I know places where you can winch straight into wave....
>
> >> I know a place where you can catapult ( bungee) launch straight into
> >> wave. I just checked my log book and there were 17 occasions when I did
> >> this ( Olympia 2b, Dart 17r and Kestrel 19)| - *4 of these were climbs
> >> above gold height, best being 18500ft above launch. *Now thats the way
> >> to go !!!!!
>
> > Next of all someone will know where they could launch from a kerb
> > straight into wave and do a Diamond height in a Primary Glider!
>
> Luxury! We used to dream of having a kerb when I were a lad...
>

We only had a small pebble.

(Sorry this is a UK thing!)

[Bruce]

You had a pebble? Sheer luxury!

Cats wrote:
> On Oct 22, 9:51 pm, Martin Gregorie
> > wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:13:29 -0700, Cats wrote:
>>> On Oct 22, 8:45 am, "Welsh Druid" > wrote:
>>>>>> On Oct 19, 4:56 pm, Martin Gregorie
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>> I know places where you can winch straight into wave....
>>>> I know a place where you can catapult ( bungee) launch straight into
>>>> wave. I just checked my log book and there were 17 occasions when I did
>>>> this ( Olympia 2b, Dart 17r and Kestrel 19)| - 4 of these were climbs
>>>> above gold height, best being 18500ft above launch. Now thats the way
>>>> to go !!!!!
>>> Next of all someone will know where they could launch from a kerb
>>> straight into wave and do a Diamond height in a Primary Glider!
>> Luxury! We used to dream of having a kerb when I were a lad...
>>
>
> We only had a small pebble.
>
> (Sorry this is a UK thing!)
>

[Cats]

On Oct 23, 10:07*am, Bruce > wrote:
> You had a pebble? Sheer luxury!
>
>
>
> Cats wrote:
> > On Oct 22, 9:51 pm, Martin Gregorie
> > > wrote:
> >> On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:13:29 -0700, Cats wrote:
> >>> On Oct 22, 8:45 am, "Welsh Druid" > wrote:
> >>>>>> On Oct 19, 4:56 pm, Martin Gregorie
> >>>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>>> I know places where you can winch straight into wave....
> >>>> I know a place where you can catapult ( bungee) launch straight into
> >>>> wave. I just checked my log book and there were 17 occasions when I did
> >>>> this ( Olympia 2b, Dart 17r and Kestrel 19)| - *4 of these were climbs
> >>>> above gold height, best being 18500ft above launch. *Now thats the way
> >>>> to go !!!!!
> >>> Next of all someone will know where they could launch from a kerb
> >>> straight into wave and do a Diamond height in a Primary Glider!
> >> Luxury! We used to dream of having a kerb when I were a lad...
>
> > We only had a small pebble.
>
> > (Sorry this is a UK thing!)-

Thinking about it it was a grain of sand! :)

[jcarlyle]

Sorry you UK guys and gals are so deprived. We colonials would be
happy to provide you with an unlimited assortment of sand grains,
pebbles, rocks and boulders - just pay the shipping!

-John

Cats wrote:
> > >> Luxury! We used to dream of having a kerb when I were a lad...
> >
> > > We only had a small pebble.
> >
> > > (Sorry this is a UK thing!)-
>
> Thinking about it it was a grain of sand! :)

[Cats]

On Oct 23, 5:41*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
> Sorry you UK guys and gals are so deprived. We colonials would be
> happy to provide you with an unlimited assortment of sand grains,
> pebbles, rocks and boulders - just pay the shipping!

Last time I visited the beach at St Andrews (yes, slap bang next to
the Old Course!) there were more than enough British grains of sand to
satisfy anyone! Since there are also a number of places in the
Highlands where boulders & stones seem to breed I'll have to decline
your kind offer.

[Don Johnstone[_3_]]

At 12:52 23 October 2008, Cats wrote:
>On Oct 23, 10:07=A0am, Bruce wrote:
>> You had a pebble? Sheer luxury!
>>
>>
>>
>> Cats wrote:
>> > On Oct 22, 9:51 pm, Martin Gregorie
>> > wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:13:29 -0700, Cats wrote:
>> >>> On Oct 22, 8:45 am, "Welsh Druid" wrote:
>> >>>>>> On Oct 19, 4:56 pm, Martin Gregorie
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> I know places where you can winch straight into wave....
>> >>>> I know a place where you can catapult ( bungee) launch straight
>into
>> >>>> wave. I just checked my log book and there were 17 occasions when
I
>=
>did
>> >>>> this ( Olympia 2b, Dart 17r and Kestrel 19)| - =A04 of these were
>cl=
>imbs
>> >>>> above gold height, best being 18500ft above launch. =A0Now thats
>the=
> way
>> >>>> to go !!!!!
>> >>> Next of all someone will know where they could launch from a kerb
>> >>> straight into wave and do a Diamond height in a Primary Glider!
>> >> Luxury! We used to dream of having a kerb when I were a lad...
>>
>> > We only had a small pebble.
>>
>> > (Sorry this is a UK thing!)-
>
>Thinking about it it was a grain of sand! :)

A grain of sand, you lucky lucky b*****d, all we had was a molecule with a
split atom :-)
>

[Tony Verhulst]

> A grain of sand, you lucky lucky b*****d, all we had was a molecule with a
> split atom :-)

"You programmed using zeros and ones?". I only had zeros". Dilbert

[bumper]

"Cats" > wrote in message
...

Last time I visited the beach at St Andrews (yes, slap bang next to
the Old Course!) there were more than enough British grains of sand to
satisfy anyone! Since there are also a number of places in the
Highlands where boulders & stones seem to breed I'll have to decline
your kind offer.


Okay, I guess there's some confusion here. So you Brits really do have
enough pebbles and stones. What's apparent, though, is that your boulder
breeding program lacks foresight, direction and probably spirit. As a
professional rock breeding therapist, I may be able to help motivate your
rocks to stay on top of each other after mating. Over time, often lots of
time, this can result in rather large mountains, such as the ones we have in
abundance here at Minden, NV (home of Soaring NV).

If you send a 1st class round trip ticket, I'll come watch your rocks breed
and make sure they are doing it correctly. Failing that, I invite you to
visit Minden and see for yourself what a proper X-rated rock orgy really
does look like.

bumper (ex-brit)
"Sex Rocks Inc."
QV and MKII
Minden, NV
zz

[Welsh Druid]

"bumper" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
> . Failing that, I invite you to visit Minden and see for yourself what a
> proper X-rated rock orgy really does look like.
>
> bumper (ex-brit)
> "Sex Rocks Inc."
> QV and MKII
> Minden, NV
> zz

AAH - but can you bungee launch a sailplane off them ??

DB

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

I've instituted a fuel saving program on my '93 Grand Caravan. It is
based on weight reduction as various rusty parts fall off.

At 17:29 21 October 2008, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>Jim White wrote:
>> At 14:46 21 October 2008, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>
>>> It does save me about 10 gallons
>>> of auto fuel when I fly, because I can fly from the local airport
>>> instead of driving to the nearest gliderport.
>>>
>> jeez Eric, what do you drive? I get over 400 miles out of 10 gallons
of
>> fuel in my car! But I am glad that you are saving the planet. That
must
>be
>> masses of CO2 per launch saved.
>
>My old Dodge Grand Caravan gets about 20 mpg (@ 60 mph) when towing my
>2400 pound Cobra trailer. If I really had to fly from Ephrata, the
>closest place with a tow, I'd probably leave the glider there most of
>the time during the season and drive up in my 2002 Camry; however, even
>with it's 4 cylinder engine, it won't get 40 mpg at 60-70 mph.
>
>I am looking forward to the plug-in hybrids coming the next year or two,

>or even an electric car.
>
>--
>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
>* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
>* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more
>
>* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at
www.motorglider.org
>

[Don Johnstone[_3_]]

At 18:45 24 October 2008, Nyal Williams wrote:
>I've instituted a fuel saving program on my '93 Grand Caravan. It is
>based on weight reduction as various rusty parts fall off.
>
A caravan, pure luxury, all we had was a trailer tent with a rip in the
top.