Re: New Iraqi Airborne Strike Capability Spotted [Archive]

David E. Powell

October 20th 08, 09:01 PM

On Oct 20, 1:55*pm, frank > wrote:
> On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > See:
>
> > > > >http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/IRAQ101408.x...
>
> > > > > I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.
>
> > > > Nice, finally!
>
> > > > No hub-center cannon though ;)
>
> > > > All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
> > > > road?
>
> > > A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
> > > could
> > > do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
> > > like a mini-
> > > AC-130.
>
> > That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
> > be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
> > might work.... that would be pretty cool.
>
> > > I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
> > > it's
> > > flying a COIN mission?
>
> > Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
> > two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
> > while the other one flies. Pretty nice.
>
> Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> never figured out.

Sounds like a Clown Car but a pretty low cost way to do a platoon jump
if they could pull it off. Might be OK for low level runs getting in
past coverage, wonder how small a radar target it is when it gets up
in some altitude? Like that German guy who landed in Red Square in the
80s.

tankfixer

October 20th 08, 09:15 PM

In article <26adbd0c-f7ef-4048-b9a6-
>,
says...
> On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> wrote:
> > On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:
> >
> > > > > See:
> >
> > > > >http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/IRAQ101408.x...
> >
> > > > > I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.
> >
> > > > Nice, finally!
> >
> > > > No hub-center cannon though ;)
> >
> > > > All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
> > > > road?
> >
> > > A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
> > > could
> > > do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
> > > like a mini-
> > > AC-130.
> >
> > That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
> > be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
> > might work.... that would be pretty cool.
> >
> > > I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
> > > it's
> > > flying a COIN mission?
> >
> > Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
> > two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
> > while the other one flies. Pretty nice.
>
> Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> never figured out.

In the back of an OV-10 ?

Very unlikely.
Maybe a three man team..

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

Typhoon502

October 20th 08, 09:18 PM

On Oct 20, 4:15*pm, tankfixer > wrote:
> In article <26adbd0c-f7ef-4048-b9a6-
> >,
> says...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > wrote:
> > > On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > See:
>
> > > > > >http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/IRAQ101408.x...
>
> > > > > > I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.
>
> > > > > Nice, finally!
>
> > > > > No hub-center cannon though ;)
>
> > > > > All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
> > > > > road?
>
> > > > A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
> > > > could
> > > > do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
> > > > like a mini-
> > > > AC-130.
>
> > > That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
> > > be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
> > > might work.... that would be pretty cool.
>
> > > > I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
> > > > it's
> > > > flying a COIN mission?
>
> > > Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
> > > two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
> > > while the other one flies. Pretty nice.
>
> > Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> > in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> > never figured out.
>
> In the back of an OV-10 ?
>
> Very unlikely.
> Maybe a three man team..

I have this vision of a bunch of troops being bungeed to the back of
the airplane and technically riding "outside" until time to release.
Hey, if they can lift a buncha SEALs from place to place on a line
under a Seahawk like sunfish on a stringer, then why not?

BlackBeard

October 20th 08, 09:19 PM

On Oct 20, 1:01*pm, "David E. Powell" >
wrote:
> On Oct 20, 1:55*pm, frank > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > See:
>
> > > > > >http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/IRAQ101408.x...
>
> > > > > > I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.
>
> > > > > Nice, finally!
>
> > > > > No hub-center cannon though ;)
>
> > > > > All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
> > > > > road?
>
> > > > A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
> > > > could
> > > > do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
> > > > like a mini-
> > > > AC-130.
>
> > > That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
> > > be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
> > > might work.... that would be pretty cool.
>
> > > > I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
> > > > it's
> > > > flying a COIN mission?
>
> > > Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
> > > two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
> > > while the other one flies. Pretty nice.
>
> > Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> > in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> > never figured out.
>
> Sounds like a Clown Car but a pretty low cost way to do a platoon jump
> if they could pull it off. Might be OK for low level runs getting in
> past coverage, wonder how small a radar target it is when it gets up
> in some altitude? Like that German guy who landed in Red Square in the
> 80s.

I keep getting an error trying to load the page. Can anyone describe
what you are talking about?

BB

[email protected]

October 20th 08, 09:24 PM

On Oct 20, 1:19*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:

[SNIP]

> I keep getting an error trying to load the page. *Can anyone describe
> what you are talking about?
>
> BB

This page?:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/IRAQ101408.xml&headline=New%20Iraqi%20Airborne%20Strike%20Capabil ity%20Spotted&channel=defense

Jack Linthicum

October 20th 08, 09:27 PM

On Oct 20, 4:19*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
> On Oct 20, 1:01*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 20, 1:55*pm, frank > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > > See:
>
> > > > > > >http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/IRAQ101408.x...
>
> > > > > > > I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.
>
> > > > > > Nice, finally!
>
> > > > > > No hub-center cannon though ;)
>
> > > > > > All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
> > > > > > road?
>
> > > > > A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
> > > > > could
> > > > > do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
> > > > > like a mini-
> > > > > AC-130.
>
> > > > That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
> > > > be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
> > > > might work.... that would be pretty cool.
>
> > > > > I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
> > > > > it's
> > > > > flying a COIN mission?
>
> > > > Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
> > > > two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
> > > > while the other one flies. Pretty nice.
>
> > > Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> > > in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> > > never figured out.
>
> > Sounds like a Clown Car but a pretty low cost way to do a platoon jump
> > if they could pull it off. Might be OK for low level runs getting in
> > past coverage, wonder how small a radar target it is when it gets up
> > in some altitude? Like that German guy who landed in Red Square in the
> > 80s.
>
> I keep getting an error trying to load the page. *Can anyone describe
> what you are talking about?
>
> BB

I had the same problem, went to AW direct. The literature says it can
carry 12 passengers

New Iraqi Airborne Strike Capability Spotted

Oct 14, 2008

David A. Fulghum

Part of the Iraq’s military future airborne strike capability appears
to be flying out of a civilian airport in Fort Worth, Texas.

Two Cessna Grand Caravan 208Bs, (http://www.cessna.com/caravan/grand-
caravan.html) armed with a pair of AGM-114 Hellfire missiles each,
have been photographed flying out of Meacham Airport earlier this
month. The field officially has no military presence, but it is the
home of a major ATK Integrated Systems major modification facility and
the armed Cessna Caravan is one of its projects.

The capability was referred to - without specificity - when U.S. Air
Force Col. Michael Wobbema, former chief of staff for the Coalition
Air Force Transition Team said late last year that “there will be an
armed variant...that will come on line.” In fact, the order of battle
for the Iraqi Air Force now includes three Caravans for intelligence,
surveillance and reconnaissance, three armed Caravans, two Hawker/
Beechcraft King Air light transports and six King Airs 350s also for
ISR.

Further operating out of ATK’s shops are C-130s, a deHavilland Dash-8
and a Swearingen Metro IV all heavily modified for clandestine ISR
operations, according to sources with knowledge of the field’s
operations.

If fact, U.S. officials admit that they are helping the Iraqis build a
counterinsurgency force with strike capabilities. In December the
Iraqi Air Force will receive the first three armed Caravans - with
laser designators for the missiles - followed by two more in early
2009, says USAF Brig. Gen. Brooks Bash, current chief of the Coalition
Air Force Transition team.

In addition, ATK modified the U.S. Air National Guard’s 11 RC-26B
aircraft (including those for Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and
California) to provide night-mission support for search and rescue and
law enforcement support. They carry electro-optical and infrared (EO/
IR) sensors, situational-awareness displays for the air crew, high-
resolution digital imagery and video and communications data transfer
links. That may have generated the local rumor that the Caravans are
part of the Homeland Security Department operation detailed to
protecting President Bush when he visits his Crawford, Texas, ranch.

But tank-killing Hellfires wouldn’t be the weapon of choice for law
enforcement. And Iraq’s air force already is flying a number of
unarmed Caravans for ISR, V.I.P. transport and pilot training, and it
is expecting armed Caravans by year’s end.

In July, the Multi-National Security Transition Command Iraq signed
over eight Cessna 172s as primary trainers and three Caravan 208s as
advanced trainers to the Iraqi Defense Ministry for the air force’s
training program at Kirkuk Air Base. The plan is to train 130 new
pilots annually. The service’s projected size is 6,000 airmen and 133
aircraft by late 2009.

The olive-drab Caravans have with no national markings, but they do
carry an off-colored rectangle near the top of the vertical stabilizer
where Iraq puts national flag markings on its military aircraft. The
aircraft are fitted with an EO/IR surveillance sensor ball offset to
the left side of the aircraft. The engine exhaust is offset to the
right to avoid interference with the IR sensor. The sensor ball,
targeting pods and missiles will be the same as those on the Predator
unmanned aircraft. A pod on the leading edge of the right wing of the
Caravan holds a weather radar. The aircraft also has missile warning
sensors on the tail and nose and what appears to be chaff and flare
dispensers for self-protection.

Meanwhile, Iraqis are acquiring eight Hawker/Beechcraft King Air 350s
(similar to the C-12) for longer-endurance, advanced ISR operations
and carrying full-motion video and forward-looking IR in a sensor
ball.

The United States has used C-12R Horned Owl aircraft with central
APY-8 Lynx radars and EO sensors have been used for roadside-bomb
detection and other missions associated with the U.S. Army’s Task
Force Odin to attack and capture insurgent leadership.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/IRAQ101408.xml

tankfixer

October 20th 08, 09:39 PM

In article <c74a62c0-9efe-4e1b-8a84-
>, says...
> On Oct 20, 4:15*pm, tankfixer > wrote:
> > In article <26adbd0c-f7ef-4048-b9a6-
> > >,
> > says...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:
> >
> > > > > On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > See:
> >
> > > > > > >http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/IRAQ101408.x...
> >
> > > > > > > I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.
> >
> > > > > > Nice, finally!
> >
> > > > > > No hub-center cannon though ;)
> >
> > > > > > All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
> > > > > > road?
> >
> > > > > A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
> > > > > could
> > > > > do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
> > > > > like a mini-
> > > > > AC-130.
> >
> > > > That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
> > > > be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
> > > > might work.... that would be pretty cool.
> >
> > > > > I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
> > > > > it's
> > > > > flying a COIN mission?
> >
> > > > Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
> > > > two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
> > > > while the other one flies. Pretty nice.
> >
> > > Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> > > in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> > > never figured out.
> >
> > In the back of an OV-10 ?
> >
> > Very unlikely.
> > Maybe a three man team..
>
> I have this vision of a bunch of troops being bungeed to the back of
> the airplane and technically riding "outside" until time to release.
> Hey, if they can lift a buncha SEALs from place to place on a line
> under a Seahawk like sunfish on a stringer, then why not?

Have you seen the video of a couple of SAS fellows who clung to the stub
wing of a AH64 to perform a rescue ?

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

BlackBeard

October 20th 08, 09:42 PM

On Oct 20, 1:27*pm, Jack Linthicum >
wrote:
> On Oct 20, 4:19*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 20, 1:01*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 20, 1:55*pm, frank > wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > See:
>
> > > > > > > >http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/IRAQ101408.x...
>
> > > > > > > > I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.
>
> > > > > > > Nice, finally!
>
> > > > > > > No hub-center cannon though ;)
>
> > > > > > > All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
> > > > > > > road?
>
> > > > > > A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
> > > > > > like a mini-
> > > > > > AC-130.
>
> > > > > That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
> > > > > be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
> > > > > might work.... that would be pretty cool.
>
> > > > > > I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
> > > > > > it's
> > > > > > flying a COIN mission?
>
> > > > > Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
> > > > > two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
> > > > > while the other one flies. Pretty nice.
>
> > > > Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> > > > in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> > > > never figured out.
>
> > > Sounds like a Clown Car but a pretty low cost way to do a platoon jump
> > > if they could pull it off. Might be OK for low level runs getting in
> > > past coverage, wonder how small a radar target it is when it gets up
> > > in some altitude? Like that German guy who landed in Red Square in the
> > > 80s.
>
> > I keep getting an error trying to load the page. *Can anyone describe
> > what you are talking about?
>
> > BB
>
> I had the same problem, went to AW direct. The literature says it can
> carry 12 passengers
>
> New Iraqi Airborne Strike Capability Spotted
>
> Oct 14, 2008
>
> David A. Fulghum
>
> Part of the Iraq’s military future airborne strike capability appears
> to be flying out of a civilian airport in Fort Worth, Texas.
>
> Two Cessna Grand Caravan 208Bs, (http://www.cessna.com/caravan/grand-
> caravan.html) armed with a pair of AGM-114 Hellfire missiles each,
> have been photographed flying out of Meacham Airport earlier this
> month. The field officially has no military presence, but it is the
> home of a major ATK Integrated Systems major modification facility and
> the armed Cessna Caravan is one of its projects.
>
> The capability was referred to - without specificity - when U.S. Air
> Force Col. Michael Wobbema, former chief of staff for the Coalition
> Air Force Transition Team said late last year that “there will be an
> armed variant...that will come on line.” In fact, the order of battle
> for the Iraqi Air Force now includes three Caravans for intelligence,
> surveillance and reconnaissance, three armed Caravans, two Hawker/
> Beechcraft King Air light transports and six King Airs 350s also for
> ISR.
>
> Further operating out of ATK’s shops are C-130s, a deHavilland Dash-8
> and a Swearingen Metro IV all heavily modified for clandestine ISR
> operations, according to sources with knowledge of the field’s
> operations.
>
> If fact, U.S. officials admit that they are helping the Iraqis build a
> counterinsurgency force with strike capabilities. In December the
> Iraqi Air Force will receive the first three armed Caravans - with
> laser designators for the missiles - followed by two more in early
> 2009, says USAF Brig. Gen. Brooks Bash, current chief of the Coalition
> Air Force Transition team.
>
> In addition, ATK modified the U.S. Air National Guard’s 11 RC-26B
> aircraft (including those for Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and
> California) to provide night-mission support for search and rescue and
> law enforcement support. They carry electro-optical and infrared (EO/
> IR) sensors, situational-awareness displays for the air crew, high-
> resolution digital imagery and video and communications data transfer
> links. That may have generated the local rumor that the Caravans are
> part of the Homeland Security Department operation detailed to
> protecting President Bush when he visits his Crawford, Texas, ranch.
>
> But tank-killing Hellfires wouldn’t be the weapon of choice for law
> enforcement. And Iraq’s air force already is flying a number of
> unarmed Caravans for ISR, V.I.P. transport and pilot training, and it
> is expecting armed Caravans by year’s end.
>
> In July, the Multi-National Security Transition Command Iraq signed
> over eight Cessna 172s as primary trainers and three Caravan 208s as
> advanced trainers to the Iraqi Defense Ministry for the air force’s
> training program at Kirkuk Air Base. The plan is to train 130 new
> pilots annually. The service’s projected size is 6,000 airmen and 133
> aircraft by late 2009.
>
> The olive-drab Caravans have with no national markings, but they do
> carry an off-colored rectangle near the top of the vertical stabilizer
> where Iraq puts national flag markings on its military aircraft. The
> aircraft are fitted with an EO/IR surveillance sensor ball offset to
> the left side of the aircraft. The engine exhaust is offset to the
> right to avoid interference with the IR sensor. The sensor ball,
> targeting pods and missiles will be the same as those on the Predator
> unmanned aircraft. A pod on the leading edge of the right wing of the
> Caravan holds a weather radar. The aircraft also has missile warning
> sensors on the tail and nose and what appears to be chaff and flare
> dispensers for self-protection.
>
> Meanwhile, Iraqis are acquiring eight Hawker/Beechcraft King Air 350s
> (similar to the C-12) for longer-endurance, advanced ISR operations
> and carrying full-motion video and forward-looking IR in a sensor
> ball.
>
> The United States has used C-12R Horned Owl aircraft with central
> APY-8 Lynx radars and EO sensors have been used for roadside-bomb
> detection and other missions associated with the U.S. Army’s Task
> Force Odin to attack and capture insurgent leadership.
>
> http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defe....

Thanks Jack and Dumpst. That link worked. I don't believe it can
carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. I worked on
several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
beds. Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
re. OV-10. I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
several times from the Bronco. He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
to-butts facing aft. The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
they'd all slide out the back. Crazy...

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.

Peter Skelton

October 20th 08, 09:50 PM

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
> wrote:

>
>Thanks Jack and Dumpst. That link worked. I don't believe it can
>carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. I worked on
>several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
>targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
>beds. Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
>re. OV-10. I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
>several times from the Bronco. He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
>to-butts facing aft. The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
>they'd all slide out the back. Crazy...
>
If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
soldiers are not going to fit.

Peter Skelton

Jack Linthicum

October 20th 08, 09:59 PM

On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton > wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
>
> > wrote:
>
> >Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
> >carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
> >several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
> >targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
> >beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
> >re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
> >several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
> >to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
> >they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...
>
> If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
> soldiers are not going to fit.
>
> Peter Skelton

specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people

Weights:
Empty Weight
1,746kg
Maximum Take-Off Weight
3,629kg
Maximum Load
1,900kg
Fuel Capacity
1,267l
Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
3,985kg

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html

Paul J. Adam

October 20th 08, 10:07 PM

In message >, tankfixer
> writes
>Have you seen the video of a couple of SAS fellows who clung to the stub
>wing of a AH64 to perform a rescue ?

Royal Marines from 45 Commando, not SAS. Two Apaches flew four booties
back into Jugroom Fort in Helmand Province, Afghanistan to retrieve a
badly wounded bootneck after an attack was repulsed: unfortunately,
despite the expenditure of many munitions and more courage, Marine Matty
Ford died of his injuries.

--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides

paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com

Richard Casady

October 20th 08, 11:51 PM

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:19:14 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard >
wrote:

>Like that German guy who landed in Red Square in the
>> 80s.

Mathias Rust, in what is probably the most produced airplane ever, the
Cessna 172. Took the private pilot check ride in one, back in 65.

Casady

Richard Casady

October 21st 08, 12:00 AM

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:50:29 -0400, Peter Skelton >
wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Thanks Jack and Dumpst. That link worked. I don't believe it can
>>carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. I worked on
>>several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
>>targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
>>beds. Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
>>re. OV-10. I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
>>several times from the Bronco. He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
>>to-butts facing aft. The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
>>they'd all slide out the back. Crazy...
>>
>If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
>soldiers are not going to fit.

3500/12 = 291.7 lbs each. I weigh 130. You ask me to carry 161 lb and
I will report you to your superiors as dangerously nuts. The very
thought makes me glad I joined the Air Force. If you weigh 161 you
won't pack the 130 either. How many do the skydivers shoehorn in?Note
that in 90 years, no army ever found soldiers suitable to carry a 75
lb M2HB machine gun, although there in a tripod mount. They always
travel by truck or helo.

Casady

Daryl Hunt[_2_]

October 21st 08, 12:03 AM

"tankfixer" > wrote in message
...
> >Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> >in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> >never figured out.

>In the back of an OV-10 ?

Actually, Tinkerbell, there was a version that had the space to do exactly
that. Not a platoon but a few troops. It was a leftover from the A1E
specs.

>Very unlikely.

Actually, it was never done operationally that I know of but the capability
was always there.

>Maybe a three man team..

frank

October 21st 08, 12:14 AM

On Oct 20, 3:15*pm, tankfixer > wrote:
> In article <26adbd0c-f7ef-4048-b9a6-
> >,
> says...
>
>
>
> > On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > wrote:
> > > On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > See:
>
> > > > > >http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/IRAQ101408.x...
>
> > > > > > I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.
>
> > > > > Nice, finally!
>
> > > > > No hub-center cannon though ;)
>
> > > > > All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
> > > > > road?
>
> > > > A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
> > > > could
> > > > do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
> > > > like a mini-
> > > > AC-130.
>
> > > That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
> > > be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
> > > might work.... that would be pretty cool.
>
> > > > I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
> > > > it's
> > > > flying a COIN mission?
>
> > > Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
> > > two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
> > > while the other one flies. Pretty nice.
>
> > Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> > in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> > never figured out.
>
> In the back of an OV-10 ?
>
> Very unlikely.
> Maybe a three man team..
>
> --
> Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
> Goode with Ketchup.

Hey, we were not going to argue with a Marine Major who had no neck,
was about 5 foot something, and sounded like he had a throat full of
gravel. And was loud.

He was the same guy when we had the check point that Marines had to
like the MC-130H Combat Talon II, we were trying to work out how to
deploy them for a pretty much low speed non stop run over the target
where the wheels barely touch down. He said, let me know when its 30
knots, then you can take off. We'll be out.

We figured Marine Recon were a rare breed, maybe a little nuts, but a
rare breed.

Always did like the Special Ops community. Some more than others, but
the quiet types were the ones you knew were damn good.

Then again anybody who trusts the AF to test fly an airplane in the
dark.....

Peter Skelton

October 21st 08, 12:15 AM

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
> wrote:

>On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton > wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
>>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
>> >carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
>> >several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
>> >targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
>> >beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
>> >re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
>> >several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
>> >to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
>> >they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...
>>
>> If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
>> soldiers are not going to fit.
>>
>> Peter Skelton
>
>specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
>plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people
>
>Weights:
>Empty Weight
>1,746kg
>Maximum Take-Off Weight
>3,629kg
>Maximum Load
>1,900kg
>Fuel Capacity
>1,267l
>Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
>3,985kg
>
>
>http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
>http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html

Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.

http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746/568/2008_Caravan_Brochure.pdf

12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.

Peter Skelton

Peter Skelton

October 21st 08, 12:26 AM

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 23:00:11 GMT,
(Richard Casady) wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:50:29 -0400, Peter Skelton >
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Thanks Jack and Dumpst. That link worked. I don't believe it can
>>>carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. I worked on
>>>several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
>>>targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
>>>beds. Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
>>>re. OV-10. I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
>>>several times from the Bronco. He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
>>>to-butts facing aft. The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
>>>they'd all slide out the back. Crazy...
>>>
>>If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
>>soldiers are not going to fit.
>
>3500/12 = 291.7 lbs each. I weigh 130. You ask me to carry 161 lb and
>I will report you to your superiors as dangerously nuts. The very
>thought makes me glad I joined the Air Force. If you weigh 161 you
>won't pack the 130 either. How many do the skydivers shoehorn in?Note
>that in 90 years, no army ever found soldiers suitable to carry a 75
>lb M2HB machine gun, although there in a tripod mount. They always
>travel by truck or helo.
>

Average soldier in Canada is about 90 kilos, naked and wet.
Americans afre bigger, if anything. Dress them, armour them, arm
them etc. gets to a planning weight of <mumble> which can't be
far off 125 kilos. In the absence of any squad equipment or
supplies, you might shoe-horn them in for a short flight,
provided you left off any militasry-related flight equipment. I
posted better data, and a URL to more elsewhere.

Peter Skelton

tankfixer

October 21st 08, 12:51 AM

In article <9574a918-2418-4f9b-81f8-3278e64bdaf1
@m74g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, says...
> On Oct 20, 3:15*pm, tankfixer > wrote:
> > In article <26adbd0c-f7ef-4048-b9a6-
> > >,
> > says...
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:
> >
> > > > > On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > See:
> >
> > > > > > >http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/IRAQ101408.x...
> >
> > > > > > > I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.
> >
> > > > > > Nice, finally!
> >
> > > > > > No hub-center cannon though ;)
> >
> > > > > > All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
> > > > > > road?
> >
> > > > > A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
> > > > > could
> > > > > do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
> > > > > like a mini-
> > > > > AC-130.
> >
> > > > That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
> > > > be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
> > > > might work.... that would be pretty cool.
> >
> > > > > I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
> > > > > it's
> > > > > flying a COIN mission?
> >
> > > > Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
> > > > two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
> > > > while the other one flies. Pretty nice.
> >
> > > Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> > > in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> > > never figured out.
> >
> > In the back of an OV-10 ?
> >
> > Very unlikely.
> > Maybe a three man team..
> >
> Hey, we were not going to argue with a Marine Major who had no neck,
> was about 5 foot something, and sounded like he had a throat full of
> gravel. And was loud.

Why not ?
I've told LTC they were wrong before..

> He was the same guy when we had the check point that Marines had to
> like the MC-130H Combat Talon II, we were trying to work out how to
> deploy them for a pretty much low speed non stop run over the target
> where the wheels barely touch down. He said, let me know when its 30
> knots, then you can take off. We'll be out.
>
> We figured Marine Recon were a rare breed, maybe a little nuts, but a
> rare breed.
>
> Always did like the Special Ops community. Some more than others, but
> the quiet types were the ones you knew were damn good.
>
> Then again anybody who trusts the AF to test fly an airplane in the
> dark.....
>

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

tankfixer

October 21st 08, 12:51 AM

In article >,
says...
> In message >, tankfixer
> > writes
> >Have you seen the video of a couple of SAS fellows who clung to the stub
> >wing of a AH64 to perform a rescue ?
>
> Royal Marines from 45 Commando, not SAS. Two Apaches flew four booties
> back into Jugroom Fort in Helmand Province, Afghanistan to retrieve a
> badly wounded bootneck after an attack was repulsed: unfortunately,
> despite the expenditure of many munitions and more courage, Marine Matty
> Ford died of his injuries.

My mistake, thanks for the correction.

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

tankfixer

October 21st 08, 12:52 AM

In article >, says...
>
> "tankfixer" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> > >in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> > >never figured out.
>
> >In the back of an OV-10 ?
>
> Actually, Tinkerbell, there was a version that had the space to do exactly
> that. Not a platoon but a few troops. It was a leftover from the A1E
> specs.

Did you note below I specified around a three man team ?

>
> >Very unlikely.
>
> Actually, it was never done operationally that I know of but the capability
> was always there.
>
> >Maybe a three man team..

You should see a doctor for that knee jerk problem of your s Daryl.

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

Paul J. Adam

October 21st 08, 01:01 AM

In message >, tankfixer
> writes
>In article >,
says...
>> In message >, tankfixer
>> > writes
>> >Have you seen the video of a couple of SAS fellows who clung to the stub
>> >wing of a AH64 to perform a rescue ?
>>
>> Royal Marines from 45 Commando, not SAS. Two Apaches flew four booties
>> back into Jugroom Fort in Helmand Province, Afghanistan to retrieve a
>> badly wounded bootneck after an attack was repulsed: unfortunately,
>> despite the expenditure of many munitions and more courage, Marine Matty
>> Ford died of his injuries.
>
>My mistake, thanks for the correction.

"No harm, no foul" seems to fit nicely here. Some seriously brave
*******s did something stupidly courageous and the worst we can complain
about is that some of them were assigned to the wrong unit? (Thermal
cameras don't do beret colours...)

--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides

paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com

David E. Powell

October 21st 08, 04:29 AM

On Oct 20, 4:19*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
> On Oct 20, 1:01*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 20, 1:55*pm, frank > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > > See:
>
> > > > > > >http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/IRAQ101408.x...
>
> > > > > > > I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.
>
> > > > > > Nice, finally!
>
> > > > > > No hub-center cannon though ;)
>
> > > > > > All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
> > > > > > road?
>
> > > > > A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
> > > > > could
> > > > > do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the target
> > > > > like a mini-
> > > > > AC-130.
>
> > > > That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
> > > > be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
> > > > might work.... that would be pretty cool.
>
> > > > > I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
> > > > > it's
> > > > > flying a COIN mission?
>
> > > > Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
> > > > two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT missile
> > > > while the other one flies. Pretty nice.
>
> > > Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> > > in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> > > never figured out.
>
> > Sounds like a Clown Car but a pretty low cost way to do a platoon jump
> > if they could pull it off. Might be OK for low level runs getting in
> > past coverage, wonder how small a radar target it is when it gets up
> > in some altitude? Like that German guy who landed in Red Square in the
> > 80s.
>
> I keep getting an error trying to load the page. *Can anyone describe
> what you are talking about?

A large single engine prop plane, looks like in civilian colors it
would fit at most small airports, painted in drab and apparently
capable of carrying and launching hellfire missiles.

> BB

Mark Borgerson[_2_]

October 21st 08, 05:59 AM

In article >,
says...
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
> > wrote:
>
> >On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton > wrote:
> >> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
> >>
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
> >> >carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
> >> >several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
> >> >targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
> >> >beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
> >> >re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
> >> >several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
> >> >to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
> >> >they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...
> >>
> >> If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
> >> soldiers are not going to fit.
> >>
> >> Peter Skelton
> >
> >specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
> >plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people
> >
> >Weights:
> >Empty Weight
> >1,746kg
> >Maximum Take-Off Weight
> >3,629kg
> >Maximum Load
> >1,900kg
> >Fuel Capacity
> >1,267l
> >Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
> >3,985kg
> >
> >
> >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
> >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
>
> Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
> number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
> gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
> maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
> reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.
>
> http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746/568/2008_Caravan_Brochure.pdf
>
> 12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.
>

The MC-5 and MP-360 canopies used by the Marine Corps
Force Recon troops can easily handle 400 pounds. They
have been tested at weights up to 700 pounds. I don't
think they regularly jump anywhere near that weight, but
400 pounds divided between the Marine and his separately-
suspended duffel is probably not uncommon.

http://atairaerospace.com/onyx/ul/

(been there, wrote the software, but DIDN'T jump out
of the airplane----I'm a 62-year old ex-squid, after
all!)

Mark Borgerson

Steve Hix

October 21st 08, 06:52 AM

In article
>,
"David E. Powell" > wrote:

> On Oct 20, 4:19*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
> > On Oct 20, 1:01*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 20, 1:55*pm, frank > wrote:
> >
> > > > On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:
> >
> > > > > > On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > See:
> >
> > > > > > > >http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/IRAQ1014
> > > > > > > >08.x...
> >
> > > > > > > > I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.
> >
> > > > > > > Nice, finally!
> >
> > > > > > > No hub-center cannon though ;)
> >
> > > > > > > All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
> > > > > > > road?
> >
> > > > > > A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the
> > > > > > target
> > > > > > like a mini-
> > > > > > AC-130.
> >
> > > > > That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
> > > > > be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
> > > > > might work.... that would be pretty cool.
> >
> > > > > > I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
> > > > > > it's
> > > > > > flying a COIN mission?
> >
> > > > > Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
> > > > > two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT
> > > > > missile
> > > > > while the other one flies. Pretty nice.
> >
> > > > Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> > > > in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> > > > never figured out.
> >
> > > Sounds like a Clown Car but a pretty low cost way to do a platoon jump
> > > if they could pull it off. Might be OK for low level runs getting in
> > > past coverage, wonder how small a radar target it is when it gets up
> > > in some altitude? Like that German guy who landed in Red Square in the
> > > 80s.
> >
> > I keep getting an error trying to load the page. *Can anyone describe
> > what you are talking about?
>
> A large single engine prop plane, looks like in civilian colors it
> would fit at most small airports, painted in drab and apparently
> capable of carrying and launching hellfire missiles.

Something like a Cessna Caravan? Of which the Iraqi AF is taking
delivery:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/bird-dogs-for-the-iraqi-air-force-035
78/

BlackBeard

October 21st 08, 06:55 AM

On Oct 20, 9:59*pm, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
> > > wrote:
>
> > >On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton > wrote:
> > >> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
>
> > >> > wrote:
>
> > >> >Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
> > >> >carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
> > >> >several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
> > >> >targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
> > >> >beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
> > >> >re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
> > >> >several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
> > >> >to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
> > >> >they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...
>
> > >> If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
> > >> soldiers are not going to fit.
>
> > >> Peter Skelton
>
> > >specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
> > >plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people
>
> > >Weights:
> > >Empty Weight
> > >1,746kg
> > >Maximum Take-Off Weight
> > >3,629kg
> > >Maximum Load
> > >1,900kg
> > >Fuel Capacity
> > >1,267l
> > >Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
> > >3,985kg
>
> > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
> > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
>
> > Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
> > number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
> > gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
> > maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
> > reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.
>
> >http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746/568/2008_Caravan_Brochure.pdf
>
> > 12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.
>
> The MC-5 and MP-360 canopies used by the Marine Corps
> Force Recon troops can easily handle 400 pounds. *They
> have been tested at weights up to 700 pounds. *I don't
> think they regularly jump anywhere near that weight, but
> 400 pounds divided between the Marine and his separately-
> suspended duffel is probably not uncommon.
>
> http://atairaerospace.com/onyx/ul/
>
> (been there, wrote the software, but DIDN'T jump out
> of the airplane----I'm a 62-year old ex-squid, after
> all!)
>
> Mark Borgerson

Test jump site looks like Marana...

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.

Jack Linthicum

October 21st 08, 10:55 AM

On Oct 21, 1:52*am, Steve Hix >
wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *"David E. Powell" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 20, 4:19*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
> > > On Oct 20, 1:01*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 20, 1:55*pm, frank > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 19, 8:51*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Oct 19, 8:39*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Oct 19, 1:11*pm, "David E. Powell" >
> > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Oct 14, 11:27*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > See:
>
> > > > > > > > >http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/IRAQ1014
> > > > > > > > >08.x...
>
> > > > > > > > > I wonder what else it can carry besides Hellfire.
>
> > > > > > > > Nice, finally!
>
> > > > > > > > No hub-center cannon though ;)
>
> > > > > > > > All kidding aside, I wonder if a cannon could be mounted down the
> > > > > > > > road?
>
> > > > > > > A belly turret like the one on the OV-10D would be nice, then you
> > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > do normal strafing or just swivel it to the side and orbit the
> > > > > > > target
> > > > > > > like a mini-
> > > > > > > AC-130.
>
> > > > > > That is a capital idea. Then one could orbit and do surveillance and
> > > > > > be able to shoot to the side over a certain area. An Apache turret
> > > > > > might work.... that would be pretty cool.
>
> > > > > > > I wonder what all that passenger space in the back is used for when
> > > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > flying a COIN mission?
>
> > > > > > Hmm... multirole stuff for troops or surveillance gear? If they haev
> > > > > > two people on board, one can guide something like a TOW or HOT
> > > > > > missile
> > > > > > while the other one flies. Pretty nice.
>
> > > > > Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> > > > > in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> > > > > never figured out.
>
> > > > Sounds like a Clown Car but a pretty low cost way to do a platoon jump
> > > > if they could pull it off. Might be OK for low level runs getting in
> > > > past coverage, wonder how small a radar target it is when it gets up
> > > > in some altitude? Like that German guy who landed in Red Square in the
> > > > 80s.
>
> > > I keep getting an error trying to load the page. *Can anyone describe
> > > what you are talking about?
>
> > A large single engine prop plane, looks like in civilian colors it
> > would fit at most small airports, painted in drab and apparently
> > capable of carrying and launching hellfire missiles.
>
> Something like a Cessna Caravan? Of which the Iraqi AF is taking
> delivery:
>
> http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/bird-dogs-for-the-iraqi-air-force...
> 78/

It is the Cessna "Grand" Caravan, bigger badder and cheaper

Mark Borgerson[_2_]

October 21st 08, 03:00 PM

In article <9870b6e3-029a-4701-9405-6919ed5d2cd0
@s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, says...
> On Oct 20, 9:59*pm, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> > In article >,
> > says...
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
> > > > wrote:
> >
> > > >On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton > wrote:
> > > >> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
> >
> > > >> > wrote:
> >
> > > >> >Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
> > > >> >carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
> > > >> >several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
> > > >> >targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
> > > >> >beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
> > > >> >re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
> > > >> >several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
> > > >> >to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
> > > >> >they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...
> >
> > > >> If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
> > > >> soldiers are not going to fit.
> >
> > > >> Peter Skelton
> >
> > > >specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
> > > >plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people
> >
> > > >Weights:
> > > >Empty Weight
> > > >1,746kg
> > > >Maximum Take-Off Weight
> > > >3,629kg
> > > >Maximum Load
> > > >1,900kg
> > > >Fuel Capacity
> > > >1,267l
> > > >Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
> > > >3,985kg
> >
> > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
> > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
> >
> > > Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
> > > number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
> > > gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
> > > maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
> > > reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.
> >
> > >http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746/568/2008_Caravan_Brochure.pdf
> >
> > > 12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.
> >
> > The MC-5 and MP-360 canopies used by the Marine Corps
> > Force Recon troops can easily handle 400 pounds. *They
> > have been tested at weights up to 700 pounds. *I don't
> > think they regularly jump anywhere near that weight, but
> > 400 pounds divided between the Marine and his separately-
> > suspended duffel is probably not uncommon.
> >
> > http://atairaerospace.com/onyx/ul/
> >
> > (been there, wrote the software, but DIDN'T jump out
> > of the airplane----I'm a 62-year old ex-squid, after
> > all!)
> >
> > Mark Borgerson
>
> Test jump site looks like Marana...

The test site with visible cactus, known as "Area 52", is about 15
miles East of Eloy, Arizona. The dry lake bed is Red Lake, about
30 miles North of Kingman, Arizona.

Mark Borgerson

Ben Jeffrey

October 21st 08, 08:03 PM

"tankfixer" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, says...
>>
>> "tankfixer" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > >Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
>> > >in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
>> > >never figured out.
>>
>> >In the back of an OV-10 ?
>>
>> Actually, Tinkerbell, there was a version that had the space to do
>> exactly
>> that. Not a platoon but a few troops. It was a leftover from the A1E
>> specs.
>
> Did you note below I specified around a three man team ?
>
>>
>> >Very unlikely.
>>
>> Actually, it was never done operationally that I know of but the
>> capability
>> was always there.
>>
>> >Maybe a three man team..
>
> You should see a doctor for that knee jerk problem of your s Daryl.
>
>
> --
> Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste

I was a member of 3rd Recon BN back in the late 70's, although I was
parachute qualified, I was in a non-jumping staff position. We did insert 4
man teams via OV-10. They set facing rear like peas in a pod - the aircraft
typically would fly knap of earth and pull up near vertical over DZ. The #1
jumper would let go and all 4 would exit the aircraft. This was done both
in daylight and at night.

Ben Jeffrey

BlackBeard

October 21st 08, 08:10 PM

On Oct 21, 7:00*am, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> In article <9870b6e3-029a-4701-9405-6919ed5d2cd0
> @s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
>
>
> > On Oct 20, 9:59*pm, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> > > In article >,
> > > says...
>
> > > > On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > >On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton > wrote:
> > > > >> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
>
> > > > >> > wrote:
>
> > > > >> >Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
> > > > >> >carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
> > > > >> >several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
> > > > >> >targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
> > > > >> >beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
> > > > >> >re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
> > > > >> >several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
> > > > >> >to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
> > > > >> >they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...
>
> > > > >> If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
> > > > >> soldiers are not going to fit.
>
> > > > >> Peter Skelton
>
> > > > >specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
> > > > >plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people
>
> > > > >Weights:
> > > > >Empty Weight
> > > > >1,746kg
> > > > >Maximum Take-Off Weight
> > > > >3,629kg
> > > > >Maximum Load
> > > > >1,900kg
> > > > >Fuel Capacity
> > > > >1,267l
> > > > >Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
> > > > >3,985kg
>
> > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
> > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
>
> > > > Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
> > > > number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
> > > > gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
> > > > maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
> > > > reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.
>
> > > >http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746/568/2008_Caravan_Brochure.pdf
>
> > > > 12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.
>
> > > The MC-5 and MP-360 canopies used by the Marine Corps
> > > Force Recon troops can easily handle 400 pounds. *They
> > > have been tested at weights up to 700 pounds. *I don't
> > > think they regularly jump anywhere near that weight, but
> > > 400 pounds divided between the Marine and his separately-
> > > suspended duffel is probably not uncommon.
>
> > >http://atairaerospace.com/onyx/ul/
>
> > > (been there, wrote the software, but DIDN'T jump out
> > > of the airplane----I'm a 62-year old ex-squid, after
> > > all!)
>
> > > Mark Borgerson
>
> > Test jump site looks like Marana...
>
> The test site with visible cactus, *known as "Area 52", *is about 15
> miles East of Eloy, Arizona. * The dry lake bed is Red Lake, about
> 30 miles North of Kingman, Arizona.
>
> Mark Borgerson

Thanks, I knew it had to be Az. but it didn't look like Yuma which was
my first thought. I didn't know about Area 52. Who runs it?

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.

Jack Linthicum

October 21st 08, 08:52 PM

On Oct 21, 3:10*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
> On Oct 21, 7:00*am, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article <9870b6e3-029a-4701-9405-6919ed5d2cd0
> > @s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> > > On Oct 20, 9:59*pm, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> > > > In article >,
> > > > says...
>
> > > > > On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > >On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton > wrote:
> > > > > >> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
>
> > > > > >> > wrote:
>
> > > > > >> >Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
> > > > > >> >carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
> > > > > >> >several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
> > > > > >> >targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
> > > > > >> >beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in..
> > > > > >> >re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
> > > > > >> >several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
> > > > > >> >to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
> > > > > >> >they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...
>
> > > > > >> If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
> > > > > >> soldiers are not going to fit.
>
> > > > > >> Peter Skelton
>
> > > > > >specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
> > > > > >plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people
>
> > > > > >Weights:
> > > > > >Empty Weight
> > > > > >1,746kg
> > > > > >Maximum Take-Off Weight
> > > > > >3,629kg
> > > > > >Maximum Load
> > > > > >1,900kg
> > > > > >Fuel Capacity
> > > > > >1,267l
> > > > > >Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
> > > > > >3,985kg
>
> > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
> > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
>
> > > > > Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
> > > > > number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
> > > > > gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
> > > > > maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
> > > > > reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.
>
> > > > >http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746/568/2008_Caravan_Brochure.pdf
>
> > > > > 12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.
>
> > > > The MC-5 and MP-360 canopies used by the Marine Corps
> > > > Force Recon troops can easily handle 400 pounds. *They
> > > > have been tested at weights up to 700 pounds. *I don't
> > > > think they regularly jump anywhere near that weight, but
> > > > 400 pounds divided between the Marine and his separately-
> > > > suspended duffel is probably not uncommon.
>
> > > >http://atairaerospace.com/onyx/ul/
>
> > > > (been there, wrote the software, but DIDN'T jump out
> > > > of the airplane----I'm a 62-year old ex-squid, after
> > > > all!)
>
> > > > Mark Borgerson
>
> > > Test jump site looks like Marana...
>
> > The test site with visible cactus, *known as "Area 52", *is about 15
> > miles East of Eloy, Arizona. * The dry lake bed is Red Lake, about
> > 30 miles North of Kingman, Arizona.
>
> > Mark Borgerson
>
> Thanks, I knew it had to be Az. but it didn't look like Yuma which was
> my first thought. *I didn't know about Area 52. *Who runs it?
>
> BB
>
> I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.

http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=7340352

tankfixer

October 21st 08, 09:03 PM

In article >,
says...
>
> "tankfixer" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, says...
> >>
> >> "tankfixer" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > >Some Marine special ops (Recon ) guys told us they could put a platoon
> >> > >in there and parachute out the back. How the heck they did that, we
> >> > >never figured out.
> >>
> >> >In the back of an OV-10 ?
> >>
> >> Actually, Tinkerbell, there was a version that had the space to do
> >> exactly
> >> that. Not a platoon but a few troops. It was a leftover from the A1E
> >> specs.
> >
> > Did you note below I specified around a three man team ?
> >
> >>
> >> >Very unlikely.
> >>
> >> Actually, it was never done operationally that I know of but the
> >> capability
> >> was always there.
> >>
> >> >Maybe a three man team..
> >
> > You should see a doctor for that knee jerk problem of your s Daryl.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
>
> I was a member of 3rd Recon BN back in the late 70's, although I was
> parachute qualified, I was in a non-jumping staff position. We did insert 4
> man teams via OV-10. They set facing rear like peas in a pod - the aircraft
> typically would fly knap of earth and pull up near vertical over DZ. The #1
> jumper would let go and all 4 would exit the aircraft. This was done both
> in daylight and at night.

Thanks.
Did't think it would be much more than three or four in that fuselage.
Must be cramped too

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

Mark Borgerson[_2_]

October 21st 08, 09:52 PM

In article <97fa8971-07c4-4fc9-8394-926cc5f518a3
@g17g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, says...
> On Oct 21, 7:00*am, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> > In article <9870b6e3-029a-4701-9405-6919ed5d2cd0
> > @s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, says...
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 20, 9:59*pm, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> > > > In article >,
> > > > says...
> >
> > > > > On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
> > > > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > >On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton > wrote:
> > > > > >> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
> >
> > > > > >> > wrote:
> >
> > > > > >> >Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
> > > > > >> >carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
> > > > > >> >several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
> > > > > >> >targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
> > > > > >> >beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in..
> > > > > >> >re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
> > > > > >> >several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
> > > > > >> >to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
> > > > > >> >they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...
> >
> > > > > >> If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
> > > > > >> soldiers are not going to fit.
> >
> > > > > >> Peter Skelton
> >
> > > > > >specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
> > > > > >plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people
> >
> > > > > >Weights:
> > > > > >Empty Weight
> > > > > >1,746kg
> > > > > >Maximum Take-Off Weight
> > > > > >3,629kg
> > > > > >Maximum Load
> > > > > >1,900kg
> > > > > >Fuel Capacity
> > > > > >1,267l
> > > > > >Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
> > > > > >3,985kg
> >
> > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
> > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
> >
> > > > > Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
> > > > > number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
> > > > > gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
> > > > > maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
> > > > > reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.
> >
> > > > >http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746/568/2008_Caravan_Brochure.pdf
> >
> > > > > 12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.
> >
> > > > The MC-5 and MP-360 canopies used by the Marine Corps
> > > > Force Recon troops can easily handle 400 pounds. *They
> > > > have been tested at weights up to 700 pounds. *I don't
> > > > think they regularly jump anywhere near that weight, but
> > > > 400 pounds divided between the Marine and his separately-
> > > > suspended duffel is probably not uncommon.
> >
> > > >http://atairaerospace.com/onyx/ul/
> >
> > > > (been there, wrote the software, but DIDN'T jump out
> > > > of the airplane----I'm a 62-year old ex-squid, after
> > > > all!)
> >
> > > > Mark Borgerson
> >
> > > Test jump site looks like Marana...
> >
> > The test site with visible cactus, *known as "Area 52", *is about 15
> > miles East of Eloy, Arizona. * The dry lake bed is Red Lake, about
> > 30 miles North of Kingman, Arizona.
> >
> > Mark Borgerson
>
> Thanks, I knew it had to be Az. but it didn't look like Yuma which was
> my first thought. I didn't know about Area 52. Who runs it?

Area 52 is the local name for a few square miles of leased grazing
land East of Eloy. The owner of Skydive Arizona has negotiated
limited testing rights there. We do a lot of testing with them
because they have Short Skyvans----which have back ramps and can
handle up to about 4000 pounds per flight.

http://skydiveaz.com/_facilities_data/facilities_aircraft.html

Skydive Arizona does a lot of military training, particularly now
that they have a vertical wind tunnel. Walking into the bar
there can be quite an experience---you can run into long-haired semi-
hippie free-fall junkies exchanging stories with German special
forces soldiers. One time we arrived for a drop at dawn---when it's
only 70 degrees---and saw a blond guy in tight shorts with an all-over
tan jogging down the road dragging a tire behind.
The van driver turned to me and said "It looks like the Germans
are here."

I can see the attraction for the military---you can probably get
10 troops and gear to 12,000 feet for under $500. You can't
get a C-130 off the taxiway at Yuma for that. Skydive Arizona
also has spare aircraft. I've had whole days of drops canceled
at YPG when the Air Farce broke their airplane. Granted, when
things work out, the AF will take you to 17,500 feet, while
Skydive tops out at about 12K.

Mark Borgerson

BlackBeard

October 21st 08, 10:42 PM

On Oct 21, 12:52*pm, Jack Linthicum >
wrote:
> On Oct 21, 3:10*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 21, 7:00*am, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
>
> > > In article <9870b6e3-029a-4701-9405-6919ed5d2cd0
> > > @s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> > > > On Oct 20, 9:59*pm, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> > > > > In article >,
> > > > > says...
>
> > > > > > On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
> > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > >On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton > wrote:
> > > > > > >> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
>
> > > > > > >> > wrote:
>
> > > > > > >> >Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
> > > > > > >> >carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
> > > > > > >> >several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
> > > > > > >> >targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
> > > > > > >> >beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
> > > > > > >> >re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
> > > > > > >> >several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
> > > > > > >> >to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
> > > > > > >> >they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...
>
> > > > > > >> If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
> > > > > > >> soldiers are not going to fit.
>
> > > > > > >> Peter Skelton
>
> > > > > > >specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
> > > > > > >plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people
>
> > > > > > >Weights:
> > > > > > >Empty Weight
> > > > > > >1,746kg
> > > > > > >Maximum Take-Off Weight
> > > > > > >3,629kg
> > > > > > >Maximum Load
> > > > > > >1,900kg
> > > > > > >Fuel Capacity
> > > > > > >1,267l
> > > > > > >Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
> > > > > > >3,985kg
>
> > > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
> > > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
>
> > > > > > Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
> > > > > > number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
> > > > > > gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
> > > > > > maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
> > > > > > reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.
>
> > > > > >http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746/568/2008_Caravan_Brochure.pdf
>
> > > > > > 12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.
>
> > > > > The MC-5 and MP-360 canopies used by the Marine Corps
> > > > > Force Recon troops can easily handle 400 pounds. *They
> > > > > have been tested at weights up to 700 pounds. *I don't
> > > > > think they regularly jump anywhere near that weight, but
> > > > > 400 pounds divided between the Marine and his separately-
> > > > > suspended duffel is probably not uncommon.
>
> > > > >http://atairaerospace.com/onyx/ul/
>
> > > > > (been there, wrote the software, but DIDN'T jump out
> > > > > of the airplane----I'm a 62-year old ex-squid, after
> > > > > all!)
>
> > > > > Mark Borgerson
>
> > > > Test jump site looks like Marana...
>
> > > The test site with visible cactus, *known as "Area 52", *is about 15
> > > miles East of Eloy, Arizona. * The dry lake bed is Red Lake, about
> > > 30 miles North of Kingman, Arizona.
>
> > > Mark Borgerson
>
> > Thanks, I knew it had to be Az. but it didn't look like Yuma which was
> > my first thought. *I didn't know about Area 52. *Who runs it?
>
> > BB
>
> > I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> > It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.
>
> http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=7340352

Thanks Jack, I've been to Tonopah more than once. I was referring to
the site Mark mentioned in Az.

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.

Jack Linthicum

October 22nd 08, 12:26 AM

On Oct 21, 5:42*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
> On Oct 21, 12:52*pm, Jack Linthicum >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 21, 3:10*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 21, 7:00*am, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
>
> > > > In article <9870b6e3-029a-4701-9405-6919ed5d2cd0
> > > > @s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> > > > > On Oct 20, 9:59*pm, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> > > > > > In article >,
> > > > > > says...
>
> > > > > > > On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
> > > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton > wrote:
> > > > > > > >> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
>
> > > > > > > >> > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >> >Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
> > > > > > > >> >carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
> > > > > > > >> >several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
> > > > > > > >> >targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
> > > > > > > >> >beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
> > > > > > > >> >re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
> > > > > > > >> >several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
> > > > > > > >> >to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
> > > > > > > >> >they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...
>
> > > > > > > >> If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
> > > > > > > >> soldiers are not going to fit.
>
> > > > > > > >> Peter Skelton
>
> > > > > > > >specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
> > > > > > > >plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people
>
> > > > > > > >Weights:
> > > > > > > >Empty Weight
> > > > > > > >1,746kg
> > > > > > > >Maximum Take-Off Weight
> > > > > > > >3,629kg
> > > > > > > >Maximum Load
> > > > > > > >1,900kg
> > > > > > > >Fuel Capacity
> > > > > > > >1,267l
> > > > > > > >Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
> > > > > > > >3,985kg
>
> > > > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
> > > > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
>
> > > > > > > Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
> > > > > > > number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
> > > > > > > gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
> > > > > > > maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
> > > > > > > reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.
>
> > > > > > >http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746/568/2008_Caravan_Brochure..pdf
>
> > > > > > > 12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.
>
> > > > > > The MC-5 and MP-360 canopies used by the Marine Corps
> > > > > > Force Recon troops can easily handle 400 pounds. *They
> > > > > > have been tested at weights up to 700 pounds. *I don't
> > > > > > think they regularly jump anywhere near that weight, but
> > > > > > 400 pounds divided between the Marine and his separately-
> > > > > > suspended duffel is probably not uncommon.
>
> > > > > >http://atairaerospace.com/onyx/ul/
>
> > > > > > (been there, wrote the software, but DIDN'T jump out
> > > > > > of the airplane----I'm a 62-year old ex-squid, after
> > > > > > all!)
>
> > > > > > Mark Borgerson
>
> > > > > Test jump site looks like Marana...
>
> > > > The test site with visible cactus, *known as "Area 52", *is about 15
> > > > miles East of Eloy, Arizona. * The dry lake bed is Red Lake, about
> > > > 30 miles North of Kingman, Arizona.
>
> > > > Mark Borgerson
>
> > > Thanks, I knew it had to be Az. but it didn't look like Yuma which was
> > > my first thought. *I didn't know about Area 52. *Who runs it?
>
> > > BB
>
> > > I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> > > It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.
>
> >http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=7340352
>
> Thanks Jack, I've been to Tonopah more than once. *I was referring to
> the site Mark mentioned in Az.
>
> BB
>
> I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.

I used to have a cite for the location of all of the "areas". As I
understand it Area 51 is now partially in Tooele Proving Ground.

Mark Borgerson[_2_]

October 22nd 08, 07:22 AM

In article <ab5f457c-92f8-4016-9d19-ef56508e44f0@
79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, says...
> On Oct 21, 5:42*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
> > On Oct 21, 12:52*pm, Jack Linthicum >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 21, 3:10*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
> >
> > > > On Oct 21, 7:00*am, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> >
> > > > > In article <9870b6e3-029a-4701-9405-6919ed5d2cd0
> > > > > @s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, says...
> >
> > > > > > On Oct 20, 9:59*pm, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> > > > > > > In article >,
> > > > > > > says...
> >
> > > > > > > > On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > >On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
> >
> > > > > > > > >> > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > >> >Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
> > > > > > > > >> >carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
> > > > > > > > >> >several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
> > > > > > > > >> >targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
> > > > > > > > >> >beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
> > > > > > > > >> >re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
> > > > > > > > >> >several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
> > > > > > > > >> >to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
> > > > > > > > >> >they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...
> >
> > > > > > > > >> If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
> > > > > > > > >> soldiers are not going to fit.
> >
> > > > > > > > >> Peter Skelton
> >
> > > > > > > > >specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
> > > > > > > > >plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people
> >
> > > > > > > > >Weights:
> > > > > > > > >Empty Weight
> > > > > > > > >1,746kg
> > > > > > > > >Maximum Take-Off Weight
> > > > > > > > >3,629kg
> > > > > > > > >Maximum Load
> > > > > > > > >1,900kg
> > > > > > > > >Fuel Capacity
> > > > > > > > >1,267l
> > > > > > > > >Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
> > > > > > > > >3,985kg
> >
> > > > > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs..html
> > > > > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs..html
> >
> > > > > > > > Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
> > > > > > > > number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
> > > > > > > > gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
> > > > > > > > maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
> > > > > > > > reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.
> >
> > > > > > > >http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746/568/2008_Caravan_Brochure.pdf
> >
> > > > > > > > 12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.
> >
> > > > > > > The MC-5 and MP-360 canopies used by the Marine Corps
> > > > > > > Force Recon troops can easily handle 400 pounds. *They
> > > > > > > have been tested at weights up to 700 pounds. *I don't
> > > > > > > think they regularly jump anywhere near that weight, but
> > > > > > > 400 pounds divided between the Marine and his separately-
> > > > > > > suspended duffel is probably not uncommon.
> >
> > > > > > >http://atairaerospace.com/onyx/ul/
> >
> > > > > > > (been there, wrote the software, but DIDN'T jump out
> > > > > > > of the airplane----I'm a 62-year old ex-squid, after
> > > > > > > all!)
> >
> > > > > > > Mark Borgerson
> >
> > > > > > Test jump site looks like Marana...
> >
> > > > > The test site with visible cactus, *known as "Area 52", *is about 15
> > > > > miles East of Eloy, Arizona. * The dry lake bed is Red Lake, about
> > > > > 30 miles North of Kingman, Arizona.
> >
> > > > > Mark Borgerson
> >
> > > > Thanks, I knew it had to be Az. but it didn't look like Yuma which was
> > > > my first thought. *I didn't know about Area 52. *Who runs it?
> >
> > > > BB
> >
> > > > I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> > > > It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.
> >
> > >http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=7340352
> >
> > Thanks Jack, I've been to Tonopah more than once. *I was referring to
> > the site Mark mentioned in Az.
> >
> > BB
> >
> > I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> > It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.
>
> I used to have a cite for the location of all of the "areas". As I
> understand it Area 51 is now partially in Tooele Proving Ground.
>
I remember---but can't find---a reference to some black aircraft
programs moving to a site in Utah. In any case, the area 52 to
which I was referring is very much a local nickname. On the
Skydive Arizona web site they call it their own Area 51.

http://skydiveaz.com/filmoffice.html

Mark Borgerson

frank

October 22nd 08, 04:55 PM

On Oct 22, 1:22*am, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> In article <ab5f457c-92f8-4016-9d19-ef56508e44f0@
> 79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> > On Oct 21, 5:42*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
> > > On Oct 21, 12:52*pm, Jack Linthicum >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 21, 3:10*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 21, 7:00*am, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
>
> > > > > > In article <9870b6e3-029a-4701-9405-6919ed5d2cd0
> > > > > > @s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> > > > > > > On Oct 20, 9:59*pm, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> > > > > > > > In article >,
> > > > > > > > says...
>
> > > > > > > > > On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > >On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
>
> > > > > > > > > >> > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > >> >Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
> > > > > > > > > >> >carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard. *I worked on
> > > > > > > > > >> >several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
> > > > > > > > > >> >targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
> > > > > > > > > >> >beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
> > > > > > > > > >> >re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
> > > > > > > > > >> >several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
> > > > > > > > > >> >to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
> > > > > > > > > >> >they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...
>
> > > > > > > > > >> If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
> > > > > > > > > >> soldiers are not going to fit.
>
> > > > > > > > > >> Peter Skelton
>
> > > > > > > > > >specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
> > > > > > > > > >plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people
>
> > > > > > > > > >Weights:
> > > > > > > > > >Empty Weight
> > > > > > > > > >1,746kg
> > > > > > > > > >Maximum Take-Off Weight
> > > > > > > > > >3,629kg
> > > > > > > > > >Maximum Load
> > > > > > > > > >1,900kg
> > > > > > > > > >Fuel Capacity
> > > > > > > > > >1,267l
> > > > > > > > > >Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
> > > > > > > > > >3,985kg
>
> > > > > > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
> > > > > > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
>
> > > > > > > > > Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
> > > > > > > > > number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
> > > > > > > > > gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
> > > > > > > > > maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
> > > > > > > > > reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.
>
> > > > > > > > >http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746/568/2008_Caravan_Brochure.pdf
>
> > > > > > > > > 12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.
>
> > > > > > > > The MC-5 and MP-360 canopies used by the Marine Corps
> > > > > > > > Force Recon troops can easily handle 400 pounds. *They
> > > > > > > > have been tested at weights up to 700 pounds. *I don't
> > > > > > > > think they regularly jump anywhere near that weight, but
> > > > > > > > 400 pounds divided between the Marine and his separately-
> > > > > > > > suspended duffel is probably not uncommon.
>
> > > > > > > >http://atairaerospace.com/onyx/ul/
>
> > > > > > > > (been there, wrote the software, but DIDN'T jump out
> > > > > > > > of the airplane----I'm a 62-year old ex-squid, after
> > > > > > > > all!)
>
> > > > > > > > Mark Borgerson
>
> > > > > > > Test jump site looks like Marana...
>
> > > > > > The test site with visible cactus, *known as "Area 52", *is about 15
> > > > > > miles East of Eloy, Arizona. * The dry lake bed is Red Lake, about
> > > > > > 30 miles North of Kingman, Arizona.
>
> > > > > > Mark Borgerson
>
> > > > > Thanks, I knew it had to be Az. but it didn't look like Yuma which was
> > > > > my first thought. *I didn't know about Area 52. *Who runs it?
>
> > > > > BB
>
> > > > > I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> > > > > It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.
>
> > > >http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=7340352
>
> > > Thanks Jack, I've been to Tonopah more than once. *I was referring to
> > > the site Mark mentioned in Az.
>
> > > BB
>
> > > I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> > > It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.
>
> > I used to have a cite for the location of all of the "areas". As I
> > understand it Area 51 is now partially in Tooele Proving Ground.
>
> I remember---but can't find---a reference to some black aircraft
> programs moving to a site in Utah. *In any case, the area 52 to
> which I was referring is very much a local nickname. *On the
> Skydive Arizona web site they call it their own Area 51.
>
> http://skydiveaz.com/filmoffice.html
>
> Mark Borgerson

I'd heard Area 12 as the new place to be.

Part of the problem is its not just getting the airframe there (and if
you're lucky its something you can load into a C-5 under a tarp) but
all the support. You want telemetry, maintenance, security, it adds up
fast. Janitors, toilet attendants.

Though with the way technology advances, it makes as much sense to
just start from scratch every decade. We were using an Atari to put
flight test data up on the monitor. Started as a 'proof of concept'.
Of course it worked, so nobody wanted to change it.

Utah had test and training range (UTTR). I think Edwards had better TM
and other data support. At least at the time, they were a step child.
Though they did have better camera setups. Tonopah had best stuff for
nuclear drops. Better operators. Probably better angles around drop
site.

Huge ****ing contest late 80s, Edwards wanted to get part of the
action. Just couldn't follow release and keep cameras trained on the
items.

Eglin had their own specialties, mainly weapons as opposed to
releases, all the aircraft specific tests.

Uncle Sam sure does have the real estate tied up to move though....

Jack Linthicum

October 22nd 08, 06:34 PM

On Oct 22, 11:55*am, frank > wrote:
> On Oct 22, 1:22*am, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article <ab5f457c-92f8-4016-9d19-ef56508e44f0@
> > 79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> > > On Oct 21, 5:42*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
> > > > On Oct 21, 12:52*pm, Jack Linthicum >
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 21, 3:10*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Oct 21, 7:00*am, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > In article <9870b6e3-029a-4701-9405-6919ed5d2cd0
> > > > > > > @s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> > > > > > > > On Oct 20, 9:59*pm, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > In article >,
> > > > > > > > > says...
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > >On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
>
> > > > > > > > > > >> > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > >> >Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
> > > > > > > > > > >> >carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard.. *I worked on
> > > > > > > > > > >> >several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
> > > > > > > > > > >> >targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
> > > > > > > > > > >> >beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
> > > > > > > > > > >> >re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
> > > > > > > > > > >> >several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
> > > > > > > > > > >> >to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
> > > > > > > > > > >> >they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...
>
> > > > > > > > > > >> If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
> > > > > > > > > > >> soldiers are not going to fit.
>
> > > > > > > > > > >> Peter Skelton
>
> > > > > > > > > > >specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
> > > > > > > > > > >plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people
>
> > > > > > > > > > >Weights:
> > > > > > > > > > >Empty Weight
> > > > > > > > > > >1,746kg
> > > > > > > > > > >Maximum Take-Off Weight
> > > > > > > > > > >3,629kg
> > > > > > > > > > >Maximum Load
> > > > > > > > > > >1,900kg
> > > > > > > > > > >Fuel Capacity
> > > > > > > > > > >1,267l
> > > > > > > > > > >Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
> > > > > > > > > > >3,985kg
>
> > > > > > > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
> > > > > > > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
>
> > > > > > > > > > Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
> > > > > > > > > > number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
> > > > > > > > > > gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
> > > > > > > > > > maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
> > > > > > > > > > reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.
>
> > > > > > > > > >http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746/568/2008_Caravan_Brochure.pdf
>
> > > > > > > > > > 12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.
>
> > > > > > > > > The MC-5 and MP-360 canopies used by the Marine Corps
> > > > > > > > > Force Recon troops can easily handle 400 pounds. *They
> > > > > > > > > have been tested at weights up to 700 pounds. *I don't
> > > > > > > > > think they regularly jump anywhere near that weight, but
> > > > > > > > > 400 pounds divided between the Marine and his separately-
> > > > > > > > > suspended duffel is probably not uncommon.
>
> > > > > > > > >http://atairaerospace.com/onyx/ul/
>
> > > > > > > > > (been there, wrote the software, but DIDN'T jump out
> > > > > > > > > of the airplane----I'm a 62-year old ex-squid, after
> > > > > > > > > all!)
>
> > > > > > > > > Mark Borgerson
>
> > > > > > > > Test jump site looks like Marana...
>
> > > > > > > The test site with visible cactus, *known as "Area 52", *is about 15
> > > > > > > miles East of Eloy, Arizona. * The dry lake bed is Red Lake, about
> > > > > > > 30 miles North of Kingman, Arizona.
>
> > > > > > > Mark Borgerson
>
> > > > > > Thanks, I knew it had to be Az. but it didn't look like Yuma which was
> > > > > > my first thought. *I didn't know about Area 52. *Who runs it?
>
> > > > > > BB
>
> > > > > > I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> > > > > > It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.
>
> > > > >http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=7340352
>
> > > > Thanks Jack, I've been to Tonopah more than once. *I was referring to
> > > > the site Mark mentioned in Az.
>
> > > > BB
>
> > > > I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> > > > It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.
>
> > > I used to have a cite for the location of all of the "areas". As I
> > > understand it Area 51 is now partially in Tooele Proving Ground.
>
> > I remember---but can't find---a reference to some black aircraft
> > programs moving to a site in Utah. *In any case, the area 52 to
> > which I was referring is very much a local nickname. *On the
> > Skydive Arizona web site they call it their own Area 51.
>
> >http://skydiveaz.com/filmoffice.html
>
> > Mark Borgerson
>
> I'd heard Area 12 as the new place to be.
>
> Part of the problem is its not just getting the airframe there (and if
> you're lucky its something you can load into a C-5 under a tarp) but
> all the support. You want telemetry, maintenance, security, it adds up
> fast. Janitors, toilet attendants.
>
> Though with the way technology advances, it makes as much sense to
> just start from scratch every decade. We were using an Atari to put
> flight test data up on the monitor. Started as a 'proof of concept'.
> Of course it worked, so nobody wanted to change it.
>
> Utah had test and training range (UTTR). I think Edwards had better TM
> and other data support. At least at the time, they were a step child.
> Though they did have better camera setups. Tonopah had best stuff for
> nuclear drops. Better operators. Probably better angles around drop
> site.
>
> Huge ****ing contest late 80s, Edwards wanted to get part of the
> action. Just couldn't follow release and keep cameras trained on the
> items.
>
> Eglin had their own specialties, mainly weapons as opposed to
> releases, all the aircraft specific tests.
>
> Uncle Sam sure does have the real estate tied up to move though....

My personal encounter with the U-2 was on the back road to the beach
at Cubi Point, aircraft being unloaded from a 124, IIRC.

BlackBeard

October 22nd 08, 07:57 PM

On Oct 22, 8:55*am, frank > wrote:
> On Oct 22, 1:22*am, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article <ab5f457c-92f8-4016-9d19-ef56508e44f0@
> > 79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> > > On Oct 21, 5:42*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
> > > > On Oct 21, 12:52*pm, Jack Linthicum >
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 21, 3:10*pm, BlackBeard > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Oct 21, 7:00*am, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > In article <9870b6e3-029a-4701-9405-6919ed5d2cd0
> > > > > > > @s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> > > > > > > > On Oct 20, 9:59*pm, Mark Borgerson > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > In article >,
> > > > > > > > > says...
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > >On Oct 20, 4:50*pm, Peter Skelton > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT), BlackBeard
>
> > > > > > > > > > >> > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > >> >Thanks Jack and Dumpst. *That link worked. *I don't believe it can
> > > > > > > > > > >> >carry 12 passengers with all that equipment onboard.. *I worked on
> > > > > > > > > > >> >several projects where we loaded EO/IR sensors, trackers, and
> > > > > > > > > > >> >targeting equipment onboard similar platforms we were using as test
> > > > > > > > > > >> >beds. *Not much room left after all that gets shoehorned in.
> > > > > > > > > > >> >re. OV-10. *I have a friend that was a USN test jumper who jumped
> > > > > > > > > > >> >several times from the Bronco. *He claims they'd sit on the deck, nuts-
> > > > > > > > > > >> >to-butts facing aft. *The Bronco would go into a steep climb and
> > > > > > > > > > >> >they'd all slide out the back. *Crazy...
>
> > > > > > > > > > >> If the maximum payload load is 3500 lb as Cessna says, 12 kitted
> > > > > > > > > > >> soldiers are not going to fit.
>
> > > > > > > > > > >> Peter Skelton
>
> > > > > > > > > > >specs for the Grand Caravan Super Cargomaster, listed at 14 passengers
> > > > > > > > > > >plus two crew. Something like 3700-3800 pounds of cargo/people
>
> > > > > > > > > > >Weights:
> > > > > > > > > > >Empty Weight
> > > > > > > > > > >1,746kg
> > > > > > > > > > >Maximum Take-Off Weight
> > > > > > > > > > >3,629kg
> > > > > > > > > > >Maximum Load
> > > > > > > > > > >1,900kg
> > > > > > > > > > >Fuel Capacity
> > > > > > > > > > >1,267l
> > > > > > > > > > >Ramp Weight (Grand Caravan, Super Cargomaster)
> > > > > > > > > > >3,985kg
>
> > > > > > > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
> > > > > > > > > > >http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/caravan/specs.html
>
> > > > > > > > > > Interesting. The Cessna website gives the maximum useful load
> > > > > > > > > > number I gave above. The Brochure downloadable from the site
> > > > > > > > > > gives 1862 kg. It also shows that, for a range of 100 nm, the
> > > > > > > > > > maximum payload, exclusive of 170 lb pilot and 45 min fuel
> > > > > > > > > > reserve is 1588 kg. to get 300 nm it's down to 1361 kg.
>
> > > > > > > > > >http://www.cessna.com/MungoBlobs/746/568/2008_Caravan_Brochure.pdf
>
> > > > > > > > > > 12 kitted soldiers is too much weight.
>
> > > > > > > > > The MC-5 and MP-360 canopies used by the Marine Corps
> > > > > > > > > Force Recon troops can easily handle 400 pounds. *They
> > > > > > > > > have been tested at weights up to 700 pounds. *I don't
> > > > > > > > > think they regularly jump anywhere near that weight, but
> > > > > > > > > 400 pounds divided between the Marine and his separately-
> > > > > > > > > suspended duffel is probably not uncommon.
>
> > > > > > > > >http://atairaerospace.com/onyx/ul/
>
> > > > > > > > > (been there, wrote the software, but DIDN'T jump out
> > > > > > > > > of the airplane----I'm a 62-year old ex-squid, after
> > > > > > > > > all!)
>
> > > > > > > > > Mark Borgerson
>
> > > > > > > > Test jump site looks like Marana...
>
> > > > > > > The test site with visible cactus, *known as "Area 52", *is about 15
> > > > > > > miles East of Eloy, Arizona. * The dry lake bed is Red Lake, about
> > > > > > > 30 miles North of Kingman, Arizona.
>
> > > > > > > Mark Borgerson
>
> > > > > > Thanks, I knew it had to be Az. but it didn't look like Yuma which was
> > > > > > my first thought. *I didn't know about Area 52. *Who runs it?
>
> > > > > > BB
>
> > > > > > I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> > > > > > It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.
>
> > > > >http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=7340352
>
> > > > Thanks Jack, I've been to Tonopah more than once. *I was referring to
> > > > the site Mark mentioned in Az.
>
> > > > BB
>
> > > > I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> > > > It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.
>
> > > I used to have a cite for the location of all of the "areas". As I
> > > understand it Area 51 is now partially in Tooele Proving Ground.
>
> > I remember---but can't find---a reference to some black aircraft
> > programs moving to a site in Utah. *In any case, the area 52 to
> > which I was referring is very much a local nickname. *On the
> > Skydive Arizona web site they call it their own Area 51.
>
> >http://skydiveaz.com/filmoffice.html
>
> > Mark Borgerson
>
> I'd heard Area 12 as the new place to be.
>
> Part of the problem is its not just getting the airframe there (and if
> you're lucky its something you can load into a C-5 under a tarp) but
> all the support. You want telemetry, maintenance, security, it adds up
> fast. Janitors, toilet attendants.
>
> Though with the way technology advances, it makes as much sense to
> just start from scratch every decade. We were using an Atari to put
> flight test data up on the monitor. Started as a 'proof of concept'.
> Of course it worked, so nobody wanted to change it.
>
> Utah had test and training range (UTTR). I think Edwards had better TM
> and other data support. At least at the time, they were a step child.
> Though they did have better camera setups. Tonopah had best stuff for
> nuclear drops. Better operators. Probably better angles around drop
> site.
>
> Huge ****ing contest late 80s, Edwards wanted to get part of the
> action. Just couldn't follow release and keep cameras trained on the
> items.
>
> Eglin had their own specialties, mainly weapons as opposed to
> releases, all the aircraft specific tests.
>
> Uncle Sam sure does have the real estate tied up to move though....

And then there's China Lake... We have it all. ;)

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.

frank

October 23rd 08, 04:05 PM

>
> And then there's China Lake... *We have it all. *;)
>
> BB
>
> I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.

China Lake had some nice toys. Interesting what showed up there.

We had A-7s, they used A-7s for drones for air to air work. There was
quite a lot of under the table parts swapping going on. Their good
tires for our bad tires to put on their drone they were going to shoot
down anyway. Needed parts to keep things flying. Might have been some
other incentives between the maintenance guys.

Everybody flew when required so commands were happy.

Jack Linthicum

October 23rd 08, 04:15 PM

On Oct 23, 11:05*am, frank > wrote:
> > And then there's China Lake... *We have it all. *;)
>
> > BB
>
> > I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> > It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.
>
> China Lake had some nice toys. Interesting what showed up there.
>
> We had A-7s, they used A-7s for drones for air to air work. There was
> quite a lot of under the table parts swapping going on. Their good
> tires for our bad tires to put on their drone they were going to shoot
> down anyway. Needed parts to keep things flying. Might have been some
> other incentives between the maintenance guys.
>
> Everybody flew when required so commands were happy.

My parents went to a tiny Kansas college, Southwestern, that seems to
have furnished a lot of the early staff members for China Lake. I met
them at the college's annual picnic in Southern California. In
addition one of my father's YMCA club members became the basketball
coach and then principle of Sherman Burroughs HS. Later I had contact
with people from China Lake who wanted help from the FCC. I don't know
if it is the desert air or just a tendency for hiring nice people but
I never met a bad personality from China Lake.

BlackBeard

October 23rd 08, 06:50 PM

On Oct 23, 8:15*am, Jack Linthicum >
wrote:
> On Oct 23, 11:05*am, frank > wrote:
>
>
>
> > > And then there's China Lake... *We have it all. *;)
>
> > > BB
>
> > > I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
> > > It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.
>
> > China Lake had some nice toys. Interesting what showed up there.
>
> > We had A-7s, they used A-7s for drones for air to air work. There was
> > quite a lot of under the table parts swapping going on. Their good
> > tires for our bad tires to put on their drone they were going to shoot
> > down anyway. Needed parts to keep things flying. Might have been some
> > other incentives between the maintenance guys.
>
> > Everybody flew when required so commands were happy.
>
> My parents went to a tiny Kansas college, Southwestern, that seems to
> have furnished a lot of the early staff members for China Lake. I met
> them at the college's annual picnic in Southern California. In
> addition one of my father's YMCA club members became the basketball
> coach and then principle of Sherman Burroughs HS. Later I had contact
> with people from China Lake who wanted help from the FCC. I don't know
> if it is the desert air or just a tendency for hiring nice people but
> I never met a bad personality *from China Lake.

You just got lucky ;) It _is_ a bit like the show Eureka, there are
so many S&E's and post-grad degrees in this town you can't swing a
dead cat without knocking someone's pocket protector loose.
There are several schools that seem to dominate the recruiting
efforts. Rolla, MO. UT, and A&M have a strong presence. There's a
generation of old timers that have recently retired that every third
one was from New Mexico.
The Physics Dept. used to have a strong showing from UofAz and
Rochester. But Cal Poly seems to have the most consistent level of
alumni working here, probably because of the proximity, reputation,
and the fact that there are so many generations that work here.
Kids graduate from the local HS and leave swearing they'll never come
back to this terrible place. After a year or so of work once they've
completed college/service a whole lot of them come back. A lot of
them either come back to work on the base or teach in the schools.
As for the personality thing I equate it to the Submarine service.
When you live in a harsh, isolated environment, you learn to work with
and depend on each other. It develops the skills that make good
neighbors. I also think it's hard to survive such a place if you
don't have a sense of humor. ;)
A lot of people are like me in that we came here figuring we'd put up
with it for a few years and then move on to greener pastures. But
between the interesting/rewarding work, great people, and small town
atmosphere it seems like if you don't leave in your first 3 years, you
stay forever. (Exceptions to every rule of course.)

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb in their life.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet.