Adjusting your OLC pos?? Seems like I could get more distance.

[KevinFinke]

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?flightId=415267746

Reference the above flight from this last weekend. In late fall no
less. We had 7 private owner ships flying, but only 3 of us were
recording that day. There were some really fun flights by everyone.
Now back to the topic...

I submitted my flight but disagree with the optimization for the
flight. It appears that my start point is not the off tow release at
21:51:38 but rather some 10 plus minutes at 21:02:38. The distance
from my trace is approx 4.6 miles or 7.40 km. Now if I were to use
this as my start leg, and subtract off the last "optimized" leg of
3.74 miles, I'd have more distance points = 114.75, but less average
speed. I've tried adjusting the times on the OLC submittal page, but
can't get it to change. Since you don't get credit for your average
speed, wouldn't it be better to optimize for distance?

Anybody know how to get it to change? Or am I missing something?

And on a second note, is there some explanation for how to interpret
the statistics table. What do each of the columns mean? Some of them
are self explanatory, but I don't understand %Kurbel, Naufwinde, and
E? Does anyone know the equations behind the data? I'm guessing they
are related to thermalling, but I just can't figure them out.

Thanks!
-Kevin Finke
ASW 24 Prototype - N28KS

[Darryl Ramm]

On Oct 19, 11:28*pm, KevinFinke > wrote:
> http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?flightId...
>
> Reference the above flight from this last weekend. In late fall no
> less. We had 7 private owner ships flying, but only 3 of us were
> recording that day. There were some really fun flights by everyone.
> Now back to the topic...
>
> I submitted my flight but disagree with the optimization for the
> flight. It appears that my start point is not the off tow release at
> 21:51:38 but rather some 10 plus minutes at 21:02:38. The distance
> from my trace is approx 4.6 miles or 7.40 km. Now if I were to use
> this as my start leg, and subtract off the last "optimized" leg of
> 3.74 miles, I'd have more distance points = 114.75, but less average
> speed. I've tried adjusting the times on the OLC submittal page, but
> can't get it to change. Since you don't get credit for your average
> speed, wouldn't it be better to optimize for distance?
>
> Anybody know how to get it to change? Or am I missing something?
>
> And on a second note, is there some explanation for how to interpret
> the statistics table. What do each of the columns mean? Some of them
> are self explanatory, but I don't understand %Kurbel, Naufwinde, and
> E? Does anyone know the equations behind the data? I'm guessing they
> are related to thermalling, but I just can't figure them out.
>
> Thanks!
> -Kevin Finke
> ASW 24 Prototype - N28KS

You are missing the rules :-) There is a limit of up to six task legs
(start, five turnpoints, finish) in OLC classic, with deprecation of
the points on the last two legs for points. Have a hard read of the
rules. To get the longer distance you seem to be trying to get would
require adding another turnpoint.

A quick glance seems that OLC is doing a fine optimization. It moved
the start point away from your tow release (which it correctly
identified - the start of the blue trace on the OLC image) because
after release you fly in a direction away from the first turnpoint and
OLC is finding a point to use for the start that is the maximum
distance from the first turnpoint. Any time earlier will give you a
shorter distance around the turnpoints and a lower OLC score. OLC is
already optimizing correctly to give you the maximum number of
turnpoints and letting the short leg at the end incur the greatest
points penalty. Magic stuff.

Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

On Oct 20, 12:18*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Oct 19, 11:28*pm, KevinFinke > wrote:
>
>
>
> >http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?flightId...
>
> > Reference the above flight from this last weekend. In late fall no
> > less. We had 7 private owner ships flying, but only 3 of us were
> > recording that day. There were some really fun flights by everyone.
> > Now back to the topic...
>
> > I submitted my flight but disagree with the optimization for the
> > flight. It appears that my start point is not the off tow release at
> > 21:51:38 but rather some 10 plus minutes at 21:02:38. The distance
> > from my trace is approx 4.6 miles or 7.40 km. Now if I were to use
> > this as my start leg, and subtract off the last "optimized" leg of
> > 3.74 miles, I'd have more distance points = 114.75, but less average
> > speed. I've tried adjusting the times on the OLC submittal page, but
> > can't get it to change. Since you don't get credit for your average
> > speed, wouldn't it be better to optimize for distance?
>
> > Anybody know how to get it to change? Or am I missing something?
>
> > And on a second note, is there some explanation for how to interpret
> > the statistics table. What do each of the columns mean? Some of them
> > are self explanatory, but I don't understand %Kurbel, Naufwinde, and
> > E? Does anyone know the equations behind the data? I'm guessing they
> > are related to thermalling, but I just can't figure them out.
>
> > Thanks!
> > -Kevin Finke
> > ASW 24 Prototype - N28KS
>
> You are missing the rules :-) There is a limit of up to six task legs
> (start, five turnpoints, finish) in OLC classic, with deprecation of
> the points on the last two legs for points. Have a hard read of the
> rules. To get the longer distance you seem to be trying to get would
> require adding another turnpoint.
>
> A quick glance seems that OLC is doing a fine optimization. It moved
> the start point away from your tow release (which it correctly
> identified - the start of the blue trace on the OLC image) because
> after release you fly in a direction away from the first turnpoint and
> OLC is finding a point to use for the start that is the maximum
> distance from the first turnpoint. Any time earlier will give you a
> shorter distance around the turnpoints and a lower OLC score. OLC is
> already optimizing correctly to give you the maximum number of
> turnpoints and letting the short leg at the end incur the greatest
> points penalty. Magic stuff.
>
> Darryl

Or maybe explained more clearly, the short last leg is there as it
incurs the most % points penalty, if you remove that and add another
leg in front of the current start, you are going to incur a larger
absolute points penalty on the last two legs than you do now.

Darryl

[KevinFinke]

Even though I've read the rules a dozen times, it doesn't always mean
I understand them. :) It makes perfect sense now. I knew about the 6
legs in a flight limit, and the devalued points for legs 5 and 6. I
just didn't put it all together. If I do take the 7.4 km extra credit
for the "first leg", I'll be killing myself by moving the 4th leg to
the 5th spot and hitting it with the 0.8% raw km penalty.

What was throwing me for a loop was that I could see the trace
identified my release well, but I couldn't understand why I wasn't
getting credit for the distance.

Thanks, Now that it makes sense, I'm going to have to rethink my
strategies for posting OLC flights. We fly in some very difficult
terrain. High mountains and low clouds on this particular day, so I
really didn't map out a strategy for maximizing my flight. Pretty much
went where the lift was developing, rather than trying to maximize my
first 4 flight legs. I'll have to try some pre planned strategy the
next time.

Thanks,
-Kevin

[tobi]

What do each of the columns mean? Some of them
> are self explanatory, but I don't understand %Kurbel, Naufwinde, and
> E? Does anyone know the equations behind the data? I'm guessing they
> are related to thermalling, but I just can't figure them out.

You are right:
%Kurbel is the thermalling percentage
NAufwinde is the number of thermals
R/C is average climb ratio
E is the glide ratio

I think the formulars are quite clear, may be apart the %Kurbel, there
is some freestyle in the definition.

[Brad[_2_]]

Kevin,

We should get together with a few others and map out some turpoints
and strategies for flying around here. I pretty much flew where the
lift was, but did have a strategy that allowed me to take advantage of
the lift and get some distance. That being said, the guys that went to
Darrington also had a good plan and got some nice distances too, to
bad they were not flying with loggers.

Brad


On Oct 20, 1:17*am, KevinFinke > wrote:
> Even though I've read the rules a dozen times, it doesn't always mean
> I understand them. :) It makes perfect sense now. I knew about the 6
> legs in a flight limit, and the devalued points for legs 5 and 6. I
> just didn't put it all together. If I do take the 7.4 km extra credit
> for the "first leg", I'll be killing myself by moving the 4th leg to
> the 5th spot and hitting it with the 0.8% raw km penalty.
>
> What was throwing me for a loop was that I could see the trace
> identified my release well, but I couldn't understand why I wasn't
> getting credit for the distance.
>
> Thanks, Now that it makes sense, I'm going to have to rethink my
> strategies for posting OLC flights. We fly in some very difficult
> terrain. High mountains and low clouds on this particular day, so I
> really didn't map out a strategy for maximizing my flight. Pretty much
> went where the lift was developing, rather than trying to maximize my
> first 4 flight legs. I'll have to try some pre planned strategy the
> next time.
>
> Thanks,
> -Kevin

[noel.wade]

The most basic "trick" with optimizing for OLC distance is to try to
thermal right off tow and while you circle, look around and pick a
direction that looks like you can go the furthest. Getting a long 1st
(and 2nd) leg is important, so you don't want to zig-zag too much
between your first few thermals. Pick a direction and methodically
work your way there. Moderate course deviations (up to 30 or 40
degrees on either side of your "target" point off in the distance) are
fine, but try to work in a consistent direction so that the system
ends up crediting you with a long leg in the first half of your
flight.

Take care,

--Noel

[Ramy]

Still OLC optimizes for points, not for distance, since the last 2
legs are devalued . So if you care only for the distance the
optimization wouldn't always yield the best results. I missed a 1000km
by few km earlier this year due to this difference...
Also occasionly the optimization will choose a later start for high
tows to reduce the altitude penalty.

Ramy

On Oct 20, 12:47*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Oct 20, 12:18*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 19, 11:28*pm, KevinFinke > wrote:
>
> > >http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?flightId....
>
> > > Reference the above flight from this last weekend. In late fall no
> > > less. We had 7 private owner ships flying, but only 3 of us were
> > > recording that day. There were some really fun flights by everyone.
> > > Now back to the topic...
>
> > > I submitted my flight but disagree with the optimization for the
> > > flight. It appears that my start point is not the off tow release at
> > > 21:51:38 but rather some 10 plus minutes at 21:02:38. The distance
> > > from my trace is approx 4.6 miles or 7.40 km. Now if I were to use
> > > this as my start leg, and subtract off the last "optimized" leg of
> > > 3.74 miles, I'd have more distance points = 114.75, but less average
> > > speed. I've tried adjusting the times on the OLC submittal page, but
> > > can't get it to change. Since you don't get credit for your average
> > > speed, wouldn't it be better to optimize for distance?
>
> > > Anybody know how to get it to change? Or am I missing something?
>
> > > And on a second note, is there some explanation for how to interpret
> > > the statistics table. What do each of the columns mean? Some of them
> > > are self explanatory, but I don't understand %Kurbel, Naufwinde, and
> > > E? Does anyone know the equations behind the data? I'm guessing they
> > > are related to thermalling, but I just can't figure them out.
>
> > > Thanks!
> > > -Kevin Finke
> > > ASW 24 Prototype - N28KS
>
> > You are missing the rules :-) There is a limit of up to six task legs
> > (start, five turnpoints, finish) in OLC classic, with deprecation of
> > the points on the last two legs for points. Have a hard read of the
> > rules. To get the longer distance you seem to be trying to get would
> > require adding another turnpoint.
>
> > A quick glance seems that OLC is doing a fine optimization. It moved
> > the start point away from your tow release (which it correctly
> > identified - the start of the blue trace on the OLC image) because
> > after release you fly in a direction away from the first turnpoint and
> > OLC is finding a point to use for the start that is the maximum
> > distance from the first turnpoint. Any time earlier will give you a
> > shorter distance around the turnpoints and a lower OLC score. OLC is
> > already optimizing correctly to give you the maximum number of
> > turnpoints and letting the short leg at the end incur the greatest
> > points penalty. Magic stuff.
>
> > Darryl
>
> Or maybe explained more clearly, the short last leg is there as it
> incurs the most % points penalty, if you remove that and add another
> leg in front of the current start, you are going to incur a larger
> absolute points penalty on the last two legs than you do now.
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -