SeeYou Mobile with SN10B data

[kirk.stant]

Does anyone have any experience driving SeeYouMobile from an SN10B,
using both the GPS data and the vario/wind/air data that the SN10 can
now transmit to a PDA?

Wondering if it is worth the trouble to have a new SN10 wiring harness
made to work with my PDA.

TIA,

Kirk
66

[JJ Sinclair]

Why would you want a PDA when you have an SN10? This moving map
business is over rated and puts your eyes inside the cockpit. All I
want and need, is the heading and distance to the turn-point and the
same to the nearest landable point. The SN10 gives me that in a quick
glance then my head is back outside where it belongs. Lots of good
stuff going on out there, besides not running into someone. Is the
other guy outclimbing me? If he is, I'd better move my circle over a
tad. Hey, there's a red tail over there.......lets join him. Hmmmm,
the ripples on the water indicate a north wind, that smoke from the
rice stubble indicates a west wind.........bet there's a shear around
here somewhere. I keep my eyes where they belong.
:>) JJ
You done good on the SN10 wind program, Dave.

kirk.stant wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience driving SeeYouMobile from an SN10B,
> using both the GPS data and the vario/wind/air data that the SN10 can
> now transmit to a PDA?
>
> Wondering if it is worth the trouble to have a new SN10 wiring harness
> made to work with my PDA.
>
> TIA,
>
> Kirk
> 66

[Big Wings]

If you flew your glider in South East England, where airspace is
unbelievably complex, you would want a moving map showing controlled
airspace.

From any significant height the Mark I eyeball cannot tell you within two
or three miles where you are relative to airspace which does not follow
ground features.


At 12:48 28 October 2008, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>Why would you want a PDA when you have an SN10? This moving map
>business is over rated and puts your eyes inside the cockpit. All I
>want and need, is the heading and distance to the turn-point and the
>same to the nearest landable point. The SN10 gives me that in a quick
>glance then my head is back outside where it belongs. Lots of good
>stuff going on out there, besides not running into someone. Is the
>other guy outclimbing me? If he is, I'd better move my circle over a
>tad. Hey, there's a red tail over there.......lets join him. Hmmmm,
>the ripples on the water indicate a north wind, that smoke from the
>rice stubble indicates a west wind.........bet there's a shear around
>here somewhere. I keep my eyes where they belong.
>:>) JJ
>You done good on the SN10 wind program, Dave.
>
>kirk.stant wrote:
>> Does anyone have any experience driving SeeYouMobile from an SN10B,
>> using both the GPS data and the vario/wind/air data that the SN10 can
>> now transmit to a PDA?
>>
>> Wondering if it is worth the trouble to have a new SN10 wiring harness
>> made to work with my PDA.
>>
>> TIA,
>>
>> Kirk
>> 66
>

[toad]

On Oct 28, 8:48*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> Why *would you want a PDA when you have an SN10? This moving map
> business is over rated and puts your eyes inside the cockpit. All I
> want and need, is the heading and distance to the turn-point and the
> same to the nearest landable point. The SN10 gives me that in a quick
> glance then my head is back outside where it belongs. Lots of good
> stuff going on out there, besides not running into someone. Is the
> other guy outclimbing me? If he is, I'd better move my circle over a
> tad. Hey, there's a red tail over there.......lets join him. Hmmmm,
> the ripples on the water indicate a north wind, that smoke from the
> rice stubble indicates a west wind.........bet there's a shear around
> here somewhere. I keep my eyes where they belong.
> :>) JJ
> You done good on the SN10 wind program, Dave.
>

No, one glance at the moving map takes the same amount of time as
looking at the SN10 to get the same info. Maybe less time.

Todd Smith
3S

[kirk.stant]

On Oct 28, 7:48*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> Why *would you want a PDA when you have an SN10?

Sorry, JJ, have to disagree with you on this one, big time. Do you
fly with a sectional? How much time does it take heads down to find a
suitable airport while scratching down low at some new contest
location? The SN10s moving map is too basic, and can require too much
knob twisting to get to the information desired. I use my SN10 for
what it is best at - racing data, accurate winds, final glides,
thermal inforation, vario. The moving map is my backup if my PDA
croaks. I use my PDA as a digital sectional, with the task drawn on,
and all landable fields inrange highlighted, and some data displayed
that is not available from the SN10.

And it only takes a glance to use, instead of trying to fish out the
sectional, unfold it, find out you have the wrong side, the proceed to
thermal IMC with a cockpit full of paper! No thanks! BTDT!

I do agree that the trick is to only go heads down and use the magic
when necessary - but heck, that includes fancy varios and even the
airspeed indicator! But I'm sure you used to preach that to your
students when you were and IP, just as I did as an IWSO, back when we
flew diesel jets with steam-powered radars....

Plus, if all the newbies have fancy PDAs in their cockpits, it makes
it easier for us old clowns to pass them while they are heads down
playing with their toys!

Cheers!

Kirk
66

[JJ Sinclair]

I use the 'options' page on my SN10, keep it set on the nearest
landable field (and next nearest landable). What it tells me is
exactly what I need to know, distance and altitude needed to get
there. No need to be looking at a sectional. When I ask the local PDA
drivers, simple questions like; how long you been on course or what's
your speed so far.................their stumpen dor an answer! Guess
what I should be asking is; What are you looking for in a PDA that
isn't already on your SN10?
JJ

kirk.stant wrote:
> On Oct 28, 7:48�am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> > Why �would you want a PDA when you have an SN10?
>
> Sorry, JJ, have to disagree with you on this one, big time. Do you
> fly with a sectional? How much time does it take heads down to find a
> suitable airport while scratching down low at some new contest
> location? The SN10s moving map is too basic, and can require too much
> knob twisting to get to the information desired. I use my SN10 for
> what it is best at - racing data, accurate winds, final glides,
> thermal inforation, vario. The moving map is my backup if my PDA
> croaks. I use my PDA as a digital sectional, with the task drawn on,
> and all landable fields inrange highlighted, and some data displayed
> that is not available from the SN10.
>
> And it only takes a glance to use, instead of trying to fish out the
> sectional, unfold it, find out you have the wrong side, the proceed to
> thermal IMC with a cockpit full of paper! No thanks! BTDT!
>
> I do agree that the trick is to only go heads down and use the magic
> when necessary - but heck, that includes fancy varios and even the
> airspeed indicator! But I'm sure you used to preach that to your
> students when you were and IP, just as I did as an IWSO, back when we
> flew diesel jets with steam-powered radars....
>
> Plus, if all the newbies have fancy PDAs in their cockpits, it makes
> it easier for us old clowns to pass them while they are heads down
> playing with their toys!
>
> Cheers!
>
> Kirk
> 66

[Eric Greenwell]

JJ Sinclair wrote:
> I use the 'options' page on my SN10, keep it set on the nearest
> landable field (and next nearest landable). What it tells me is
> exactly what I need to know, distance and altitude needed to get
> there. No need to be looking at a sectional.

Stick with the SN10 if you are flying a familiar area. But, if you fly
like I do in *UNfamiliar* areas about half the time each year, the extra
information I get with a PDA and SeeYou Mobile is invaluable. I'm
picking out my course as I go (love the OLC!), so "situational
awareness" is my prime need.

> When I ask the local PDA
> drivers, simple questions like; how long you been on course or what's
> your speed so far.................their stumpen dor an answer! Guess
> what I should be asking is; What are you looking for in a PDA that
> isn't already on your SN10?

I rarely fly tasks, so knowing instantly how long I've been on course
(course? I don't need no stinking course!) has no value (two button
clicks and I can read, however). I just fly in one direction until I
realize I might not make it back, then I turn around. And speed? I just
fly as fast as I can without getting into trouble. I don't need to know
what the speed is.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Darryl Ramm]

On Oct 28, 4:01*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> JJ Sinclair wrote:
> > I use the 'options' page on my SN10, keep it set on the nearest
> > landable field (and next nearest landable). What it tells me is
> > exactly what I need to know, distance and altitude needed to get
> > there. No need to be looking at a sectional.
>
> Stick with the SN10 if you are flying a familiar area. But, if you fly
> like I do in *UNfamiliar* areas about half the time each year, the extra
> information I get with a PDA and SeeYou Mobile is invaluable. I'm
> picking out my course as I go (love the OLC!), so "situational
> awareness" is my prime need.
>
> > When I ask the local PDA
> > drivers, simple questions like; how long you been on course or what's
> > your speed so far.................their stumpen dor an answer! Guess
> > what I should be asking is; What are you looking for in a PDA that
> > isn't already on your SN10?
>
> I rarely fly tasks, so knowing instantly how long I've been on course
> (course? I don't need no stinking course!) has no value (two button
> clicks and I can read, however). I just fly in one direction until I
> realize I might not make it back, then I turn around. And speed? I just
> fly as fast as I can without getting into trouble. I don't need to know
> what the speed is.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> * Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * * * New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more
>
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

And you don't need to worry about landout options because you fly one
of those noisy !@#$ motorgliders. (just channeling JJ).

The biggest problem with PDAs IMHO is lack of daylight visibility. In
my mid-40's its a real issue. At JJ's age... ah stick with the SN10.

I'm addicted to the capabilities of SeeYou Mobile. Folks who like the
SN-10 really seem to love it, but I've had frustrating experience with
SN-10 in rental gliders like the trying to edit an active task - all
driven by completely not knowing what I was doing. The ability to
bring my "world" with me all loaded up on a PDA in my own glider or in
a rental glider is a big plus. The inability to take the SN-10 home
and play with it and get it all configured etc. was an issue for me,
and I pulled one out of a glider I purchased.

Anyhow as usual style nobody has helped Kirk out... but are you sure
that SeeYou Mobile supports the SN10 wind calculations? My (sketchy)
understanding is that the SN10 can speak extended sentences with
calculated wind data but I'm not sure SeeYou Mobile will do anything
with that. I don't think the SN10 transmits TAS data that SeeYou
Mobile would use to improve it's own internal wind calculations.
That's at least how it works with the Cambridge 302 (SeeYou Mobile
does a great job enhancing the wind calculations with the C-302 TAS
data but ignores the wind calculations from the C-302). But if the
SN-10 is not transmitting TAS data maybe SeeYou does use the SN-10
wind. Paging Dave Nadler...

I expect (hope?) the Naviter guys would primarily want to do their own
wind calculations using TAS data from external devices. This should
give end-users better consistency across data sources and leave them
as developers a bit more in of their own application. The only
exception might be in flight computer like the LX-7007 that can
leverage a magnetometer for wind calculations. I have no idea what
they do there.

The user forums at Naviter may be a better place to get help.

Regards


Darryl

[Andrej Kolar[_2_]]

> Anyhow as usual style nobody has helped Kirk out...

Thanks for putting it back on track.

> I expect (hope?) the Naviter guys would primarily want to do their
> own wind

Correct. We all know that the wind in SN-10 is great. But there is no
reason to duplicate this wind on SeeYou Mobile if you already have it
on the SN-10 conveniently. We try to do our own thing from available
data. AFAIK true or indicated airspeed is not available in SN-10 NMEA
output which means we can't compute the wind in straight flight when
connected to the SN-10. Knowing the limitations of your gear it may
still be beneficial to be able to compare two completely different
methods of computing the wind in a thermal for example.

Back to the original question:
> Wondering if it is worth the trouble to have a new SN10 wiring harness
> made to work with my PDA.

Due to the lack of TAS/IAS in SN-10's NMEA the only benefit is the
vario data that comes from the SN-10. This data will give you better
Thermal Vario (VarT) and much better Thermal Assistant analysis if you
use these two features. If you don't there little or no benefit
compared to being connected to the Volkslogger (assuming that you
connect SeeYou Mobile to VL at present).

> The user forums at Naviter may be a better place to get help.

True. Posting there helps other pilots answer their own questions
while we are away flying.

Andrej

[[email protected]]

On Oct 29, 12:54*am, Andrej Kolar > wrote:
> > Anyhow as usual style nobody has helped Kirk out...
>
> Knowing the limitations of your gear it may
> still be beneficial to be able to compare two completely different
> methods of computing the wind in a thermal for example.
>

I find this comparison quite beneficial - particularly on final glides
were a "second opinion" on required altitude gives me some comfort
that I am on track. I personally use a 302 with WinPilot and an
LX-7000 so I have two redundant systems with only the battery wiring
as a common failure mode. Normally I use WinPilot for task management
(except for a custom Glideplan map with all the turnpoints overlaid
promenently for use in picking MAT turnpoints so I can minimize screen-
poking time). The LX I use for a live list of the closest landable
spots (here I wish I could sort by arrival altitude rather than
distance because distance alone is an insufficient metric for
alternates in the mountains and I find myself comparing coser-in
alternates to find the one with the biggest margin - can you say
Hurricane Mesa?). On final glides I compare both instruments to ensure
against differences in wind calculations, or operator error. I
occasionally find a mis-set McCready value or wing loading this way.

I think the LX 5000/7000 series also pass TAS like the 302 - not that
it would help in Kirk's situation.


9B

[JJ Sinclair]

> The biggest problem with PDAs IMHO is lack of daylight visibility. In
> my mid-40's its a real issue. At JJ's age... ah stick with the SN10.

What, me old? Guess so, my OCS class is holding its 50th reunion next
year!
JJ

[toad]

On Oct 28, 5:44*pm, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> I use the 'options' page on my SN10, keep it set on the nearest
> landable field (and next nearest landable). What it tells me is
> exactly what I need to know, distance and altitude needed to get
> there. No need to be looking at a sectional. When I ask the local PDA
> drivers, simple questions like; how long you been on course or what's
> your speed so far.................their stumpen dor an answer! Guess
> what I should be asking is; What are you looking for in a PDA that
> isn't already on your SN10?
> JJ
>

JJ,

I think the problem there, is that they haven't learned how to use
their PDA. I'm sure those pilots would be just as confused with any
instrument, including the SN10.

The best feature of a PDA is the ability to take it home to learn how
to use it. But you do have to have the self discipline to not geek
out in the cockpit and fiddle with the thing.

Todd Smith
3S

[[email protected]]

On Oct 29, 9:31*am, toad > wrote:
> On Oct 28, 5:44*pm, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > I use the 'options' page on my SN10, keep it set on the nearest
> > landable field (and next nearest landable). What it tells me is
> > exactly what I need to know, distance and altitude needed to get
> > there. No need to be looking at a sectional. When I ask the local PDA
> > drivers, simple questions like; how long you been on course or what's
> > your speed so far.................their stumpen dor an answer! Guess
> > what I should be asking is; What are you looking for in a PDA that
> > isn't already on your SN10?
> > JJ
>
> JJ,
>
> I think the problem there, is that they haven't learned how to use
> their PDA. *I'm sure those pilots would be just as confused with any
> instrument, including the SN10.
>
> The best feature of a PDA is the ability to take it home to learn how
> to use it. *But you do have to have the self discipline to not geek
> out in the cockpit and fiddle with the thing.
>
> Todd Smith
> 3S

Naw, the very best feature of a PDA is the ability to load the proper
database file into your nav computer on the grid (of the contest site
you just arrived at) without looking like a doofus. :-) :-)

-T8 (and occasional doofus)

[DRN]

On Oct 28, 10:00*am, Big Wings > wrote:
> ...If you flew your glider in South East England, where airspace is
> unbelievably complex, you would want a moving map showing controlled
> airspace.

Which is, of course, why the ILEC SN10 moving map can
display airspace boundaries....

[DRN]

On Oct 28, 9:31*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:

> .... Folks who like the
> SN-10 really seem to love it, but I've had frustrating experience with
> SN-10 in rental gliders like the trying to edit an active task - all
> driven by completely not knowing what I was doing. The ability to
> bring my "world" with me all loaded up on a PDA in my own glider or in
> a rental glider is a big plus. The inability to take the SN-10 home
> and play with it and get it all configured etc. was an issue for me...

If you need to practice, run the SN10 demo program on your PC.
The time to set up an SN10 for a specific site and task is
EXTREMELY short, with even the tiniest bit of practice...

> ...My (sketchy)
> understanding is that the SN10 can speak extended sentences with
> calculated wind data but I'm not sure SeeYou Mobile will do anything
> with that. I don't think the SN10 transmits TAS data that SeeYou
> Mobile would use to improve it's own internal wind calculations.
> ...But if the
> SN-10 is not transmitting TAS data maybe SeeYou does use the SN-10
> wind. Paging Dave Nadler...

The SN10 wind calculation is transmitted to the PDA.
The PDA has no need for ASI.
See:
http://www.nadler.com/sn10/sn10_pda_support.html

> I expect (hope?) the Naviter guys would primarily want to do their own
> wind calculations using TAS data from external devices.

Why ? When the SN10 already has the best wind measurement available ?

> ...I have no idea...

See ya, Dave

[DRN]

On Oct 29, 3:54*am, Andrej Kolar > wrote:

> ... We all know that the wind in SN-10 is great.

Thanks you, yhall is making me blush...

> But there is no reason to duplicate this wind on SeeYou Mobile...

There is no reason to duplicate the *measurement*.
There is every reason to accept the wind from the SN10
and use it in any calculations in the PDA.

> AFAIK true or indicated airspeed is not available in SN-10 NMEA
> output which means we can't compute the wind in straight flight when
> connected to the SN-10.

As both our customers have requested, *please* just take the
wind from the SN10, as some of your competitors (Pocket
StrePla and others) are doing...

> Due to the lack of TAS/IAS in SN-10's NMEA the only benefit is the
> vario data that comes from the SN-10...

No, if you would use the SN10 wind, you can display which
alternates can be reached accurately...

> ...while we are away flying....
> Andrej

Looks like the season is about done here ! Too cold, short days,
time to get to the winter projects and the next SN10 upgrades ;-)

See ya, Dave "YO electric"

[DRN]

On Oct 28, 8:48*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> Why *would you want a PDA when you have an SN10?

What customers have told us is:
- I want a moving map ALWAYS displayed for alternates and airspace
- I want to see alternates without page-fiddling
- I want to use the SN10 for everything EXCEPT the map

This is how we arrived at the current NMEA outputs;
to support the common customer requests.

> This moving map business is over rated and puts your eyes inside
> the cockpit.

For those that want to see this info all the time, its
less time heads-down with the PDA map display

> You done good on the SN10 wind program, Dave.

Thanks !

Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

PS: See JJ, some of these guys are a whole lot more nervous
than you ex-fighter-jocks, so they need to have this info
always available rather than just checking when appropriate ;-)

[Richard[_1_]]

On Oct 28, 2:44*pm, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> I use the 'options' page on my SN10, keep it set on the nearest
> landable field (and next nearest landable). What it tells me is
> exactly what I need to know, distance and altitude needed to get
> there. No need to be looking at a sectional. When I ask the local PDA
> drivers, simple questions like; how long you been on course or what's
> your speed so far.................their stumpen dor an answer! Guess
> what I should be asking is; What are you looking for in a PDA that
> isn't already on your SN10?
> JJ

JJ,

Thanks for asking!

What I was looking for is large moving map 6.5" diagonal that is
sunlight readable, color, VGA and offers all the features, bells and
whistles included with WinPilot PRO or SeeYou Mobile Software and
allows you to select from a externsive list of features and use only
the ones you want.

I have been selling Ipaqs and Ipaq software for 6 years. The largest
number of complaints were: I can't see the screen. My Ipaq battery
went dead and I lost the program.

So I designed a product to solve these problems. The Craggy Aero
Utimate.

http://www.craggyaero.com/ultimate.htm


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Darryl Ramm]

On Oct 29, 11:27*am, DRN > wrote:
> On Oct 28, 8:48*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > Why *would you want a PDA when you have an SN10?
>
> What customers have told us is:
> - I want a moving map ALWAYS displayed for alternates and airspace
> - I want to see alternates without page-fiddling
> - I want to use the SN10 for everything EXCEPT the map
>
> This is how we arrived at the current NMEA outputs;
> to support the common customer requests.
>
> > This moving map business is over rated and puts your eyes inside
> > the cockpit.
>
> For those that want to see this info all the time, its
> less time heads-down with the PDA map display
>
> > You done good on the SN10 wind program, Dave.
>
> Thanks !
>
> Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"
>
> PS: See JJ, some of these guys are a whole lot more nervous
> than you ex-fighter-jocks, so they need to have this info
> always available rather than just checking when appropriate ;-)

Dave, I still don't get why you don't provide the TAS data on NEMA.
You seem to say that pilots, or the PDA software, can compare the
calculated wind from the differnet devices but you are tying the hands
of the PDA software a bit and either it has to do non-TAS enganced
wind calculations or it has to take the SN-10 calcualted wind data.
Why not let the PDA software see the same TAS data you are using? That
does nothing to take away from the good wind calculations the SN10 is
doing internally. Again I can see why Naviter would prefer to do their
own raw wind calculations - and as a user I'd prefer the PDA software
be using the same basic algorithms regardless of the source I'm
conected to.

To Andy's point I do like to compare different wind calculations. But
in my case I am checking what my Cambridge 303 is showing vs. what
SeeYou is showing (enhanced from the C302). Here there is a common
point of failure in the TAS data (unlike Andy's setup). I suspect many
pilots are competently unaware of what is actually going on between
their GPS/flight computer and PDA software for wind calculations. What
would be useful is if Naviter (and other?) software vendors would
explain more clearly the sources/behavior of wind calculations, Mc
settings, ballast settings, etc. depending on what device they are
connected to. Andrej, if that documentation exists shoot me down
now...

Regards


Darryl

[gen]

Very interesting discussion. I myself use SN10 + PDA(SeeYou). Besides
what have been mentioned, SeeYou also leaves traces which are useful
to come back at exactly the same place in wave, etc.

I think the original question is easy to answer.. You can buy
everything you need to make the cable at Radio Shack for less than
$10, so just go for it and see if you like it.

-Gen

[Darryl Ramm]

On Oct 29, 1:14*pm, gen > wrote:
> Very interesting discussion. I myself use SN10 + PDA(SeeYou). Besides
> what have been mentioned, SeeYou also leaves traces which are useful
> to come back at exactly the same place in wave, etc.
>
> I think the original question is easy to answer.. You can buy
> everything you need to make the cable at Radio Shack for less than
> $10, so just go for it and see if you like it.
>
> -Gen

The original question was likely answered the other way. I read that
Kirk specifically wanted wanted to see the benefit of ehnanced wind/
air data for SeeYou - then don't bother as there is no enhanced data
communicated. You can just stay with a separate GPS source for the
PDA. There may be other benefits of communicating Mc. etc settings
however that was not the question.

Darryl

[Ole John Aske]

gen wrote:
> Very interesting discussion. I myself use SN10 + PDA(SeeYou). Besides
> what have been mentioned, SeeYou also leaves traces which are useful
> to come back at exactly the same place in wave, etc.
>
> I think the original question is easy to answer.. You can buy
> everything you need to make the cable at Radio Shack for less than
> $10, so just go for it and see if you like it.
>
> -Gen

I actually modified my SN10B, Volksloger, PDA cabling two years ago in
order to get SN10 Data into my PDA - This turned ut to be a big waste of
time!

The problem was that SN10 also appended its own pressure altitude data
to the NMEA data stream together with the pressure altitude data from
the Volkslogger. These two pressure altitude data may typically differ
by at least 100meter.

While flying close to the upper airspace boundary, it was totally random
if SeeYou used the Volkslogger or the SN10 altitude to calculate an
airspace warning. This resulted in lots of false warnings when the SN10
produced a higher altitude reading than the Volkslogger, and a single
time resulted in a airspace violation when the SN10 decided that I was
lower than the Volkslogger logged.

Most of the time it was only pure annoying - I decided to rip out the
new cabling at the last annual.

Ole John Aske, Ls8T

[kirk.stant]

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm happy with my current SN10/PDA
setup, just looking for small enhancements. I currently have both
setup totally independent of each other, with separate GPS sources
(and even separate batteries). I'm considering on adding a GPS
splitter to allow either GPS to drive the PDA, for redundancy, so
while at it was wondering if the SN10 vario/altitude inputs would
enhance SeeYouMobile (don't really care about wind - they already
match pretty closely, and the SN10 works just fine for that).
Thinking mainly about the vario and final glide functions.

JJ, yeah, I know this is probably overkill, but it's fun (and PDAs are
cheap) and I've lost single systems on long flights before. Nice to
have a backup...

For Dave: How about updating how the SN10 handles USA start/finish
rules? And since now an AST is essentially an AAT with 1 mile areas
and no time limit, how about combining the two to get rid of the need
to go to the SETUP menu to create or change an AAT task? And figure
final glide to the finish circle (i.e. 500' at one mile), not the
finish turnpoint/airport (I can use the alternate page for that)?

And PLEASE, get rid of those annoying announcements ("You have entered
the start/turn/finish circle, press HELP to continue") - I know that!
If no action is necessary, then either let me choose to not see those
"info" announcements, or make them go away on their own after a few
seconds, without any button pushes.

Last request: Display digital altitude to the nearest 10 feet. That
is the convention used in all the current civil and military digital
avionics displays, for a good reason - the rapidly changing single
feet (or meter) digits are distracting and serve no useful purpose -
and can even make the altitude trend hard to see. Input altitudes to
the nearest feet is fine, just round off the final glide altitude
needed and current altitude displays to the nearest 10 feet. Trust
me, try it, you'll like it!

Cheers!

Kirk
SN10 user for the past 8 years and loving it.

[Falk Rüth]

Hi John,

you can solve this problem by deactivating the $PGCS1 NMEA sentence at
the Volkslogger. Then Seeyou gets pressure height data only from SN10 an
position data from Volkslogger.

Falk

Ole John Aske schrieb:
> gen wrote:
>> Very interesting discussion. I myself use SN10 + PDA(SeeYou). Besides
>> what have been mentioned, SeeYou also leaves traces which are useful
>> to come back at exactly the same place in wave, etc.
>>
>> I think the original question is easy to answer.. You can buy
>> everything you need to make the cable at Radio Shack for less than
>> $10, so just go for it and see if you like it.
>>
>> -Gen
>
> I actually modified my SN10B, Volksloger, PDA cabling two years ago in
> order to get SN10 Data into my PDA - This turned ut to be a big waste of
> time!
>
> The problem was that SN10 also appended its own pressure altitude data
> to the NMEA data stream together with the pressure altitude data from
> the Volkslogger. These two pressure altitude data may typically differ
> by at least 100meter.
>
> While flying close to the upper airspace boundary, it was totally random
> if SeeYou used the Volkslogger or the SN10 altitude to calculate an
> airspace warning. This resulted in lots of false warnings when the SN10
> produced a higher altitude reading than the Volkslogger, and a single
> time resulted in a airspace violation when the SN10 decided that I was
> lower than the Volkslogger logged.
>
> Most of the time it was only pure annoying - I decided to rip out the
> new cabling at the last annual.
>
> Ole John Aske, Ls8T

--
Falk Rüth
K6-Team

http://www.k6-team.de

[JJ Sinclair]

I'm considering on adding a GPS
> splitter to allow either GPS to drive the PDA, for redundancy,

Roger that, only I'm considering a switch that would allow me to
select either one of my 2 GPS's to drive the SN10. The thing is worse
than usless if the GPS signal is lost.............it keeps providing
info back to where the GPS stopped giving inputs. Am I correct in
assuming I can send the red and white wires from both Model 20 GPS's
to the SN10 with the NMEA signal (red) going to a SPDT switch with one
GPS (red) input on the top and the other GPS (red) on the bottom of
this "selector" switch?

Dave, Roger on Kirk's requests for SN10 updates......... "your inside
the start cylinder" and "you have a good start" can drive me nuts as I
loiter near the edge of the gate. Maybe have these alerts go away in a
few seconds.
JJ

[Richard[_1_]]

On Oct 28, 2:44*pm, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> I use the 'options' page on my SN10, keep it set on the nearest
> landable field (and next nearest landable). What it tells me is
> exactly what I need to know, distance and altitude needed to get
> there. No need to be looking at a sectional. When I ask the local PDA
> drivers, simple questions like; how long you been on course or what's
> your speed so far.................their stumpen dor an answer! Guess
> what I should be asking is; What are you looking for in a PDA that
> isn't already on your SN10?
> JJ
>
>
>

JJ,

You must asked have asked local uninformed PDA drivers. With
mearly one click of the wand.

SeeYou Mobile has a very informative page that shows the following:

The statistics page gives you detailed information on Thermals and the
flight. To change the content of the statistics pane, tap on it to
switch between
.. Flight statistics
.. Task statistics
.. last 60 minutes statistics

Thermals panel graphically displays the last four thermals where the
left most is newest. At the top of each bar you can see the Thermal
average. The height of each bar represents the entrance and departure
from each thermal relative to the other four. The number on the right
is average for the last four thermals. Use it for your MacCready
setting if you wish.

Flight statistics gives averages for the Lift, Average speed, Distance
flown, circling percentage and duration of flight. Distance is the
same as Optimized distance in the "Opt" navbox.
Task statistics gives averages achieved since the start of the
Declared task.
Last 60 minutes statistics gives averages achieved on the Declared
task or the Optimized task in the last hour.



Richard,
www.craggyaero.com

[[email protected]]

On Oct 27, 1:35 pm, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience driving SeeYouMobile from an SN10B,
> using both the GPS data and the vario/wind/air data that the SN10 can
> now transmit to a PDA?
>
> Wondering if it is worth the trouble to have a new SN10 wiring harness
> made to work with my PDA.
>
> TIA,
>
> Kirk
> 66

Kirk,

I use seeyoumobile with an sn-10b. I also have the cable that supports
the supplemental info from the sn-10 into seeyoumobile. Since I went
with the new cable the seeyou wind calc seems to be in better
agreement than in the past when using the gps data alone. However, I
always rely on the final glide calc from the sn-10 so the possible
increase in accuracy in seeyoumobile is of limited value to me. I
would only go with the new cabling if you were already planning to
make a change behind the panel.

Regards,

XJ

[Darryl Ramm]

On Oct 31, 7:29*am, wrote:
> On Oct 27, 1:35 pm, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have any experience driving SeeYouMobile from an SN10B,
> > using both the GPS data and the vario/wind/air data that the SN10 can
> > now transmit to a PDA?
>
> > Wondering if it is worth the trouble to have a new SN10 wiring harness
> > made to work with my PDA.
>
> > TIA,
>
> > Kirk
> > 66
>
> Kirk,
>
> I use seeyoumobile with an sn-10b. I also have the cable that supports
> the supplemental info from the sn-10 into seeyoumobile. Since I went
> with the new cable the seeyou wind calc seems to be in better
> agreement than in the past when using the gps data alone. However, I
> always rely on the final glide calc from the sn-10 so the possible
> increase in accuracy in seeyoumobile is of limited value to me. I
> would only go with the new cabling if you were already planning to
> make a change behind the panel.
>
> Regards,
>
> XJ

Well that must be a special cable indeed (maybe made by Placebo, Inc.?
I hear their stuff really works great). Have a re-read of this thread.

Darryl

[kirk.stant]

> Kirk,
>
> I use seeyoumobile with an sn-10b. I also have the cable that supports
> the supplemental info from the sn-10 into seeyoumobile. Since I went
> with the new cable the seeyou wind calc seems to be in better
> agreement than in the past when using the gps data alone. However, I
> always rely on the final glide calc from the sn-10 so the possible
> increase in accuracy in seeyoumobile is of limited value to me. I
> would only go with the new cabling if you were already planning to
> make a change behind the panel.
>
> Regards,
>
> XJ

XJ, how about the thermal information? Thermal history, centering
page, etc? Does that appear to be more useful than the GPS-derived
information?

Kirk

[[email protected]]

On Oct 31, 1:07 pm, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> > Kirk,
>
> > I use seeyoumobile with an sn-10b. I also have the cable that supports
> > the supplemental info from the sn-10 into seeyoumobile. Since I went
> > with the new cable the seeyou wind calc seems to be in better
> > agreement than in the past when using the gps data alone. However, I
> > always rely on the final glide calc from the sn-10 so the possible
> > increase in accuracy in seeyoumobile is of limited value to me. I
> > would only go with the new cabling if you were already planning to
> > make a change behind the panel.
>
> > Regards,
>
> > XJ
>
> XJ, how about the thermal information? Thermal history, centering
> page, etc? Does that appear to be more useful than the GPS-derived
> information?
>
> Kirk

Kirk,

Sorry, I haven't used the seeyou thermal features enough to comment on
them.

XJ

[Dan[_6_]]

On Oct 31, 11:49*am, wrote:
> On Oct 31, 1:07 pm, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Kirk,
>
> > > I use seeyoumobile with an sn-10b. I also have the cable that supports
> > > the supplemental info from the sn-10 into seeyoumobile. Since I went
> > > with the new cable the seeyou wind calc seems to be in better
> > > agreement than in the past when using the gps data alone. However, I
> > > always rely on the final glide calc from the sn-10 so the possible
> > > increase in accuracy in seeyoumobile is of limited value to me. I
> > > would only go with the new cabling if you were already planning to
> > > make a change behind the panel.
>
> > > Regards,
>
> > > XJ
>
> > XJ, how about the thermal information? *Thermal history, centering
> > page, etc? *Does that appear to be more useful than the GPS-derived
> > information?
>
> > Kirk
>
> Kirk,
>
> Sorry, I haven't used the seeyou thermal features enough to comment on
> them.
>
> XJ- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I set up my two SeeYou map pages to take advantage of the set up
variations available with SeeYou mobile-

map page 1 is for X/C on the run, nav boxes include, distance to
target, bearing to target, required L/D to target, current L/D,
required altitude to target, Ground speed, wind speed and direction,
Netto. Map page 1 aslo shows all the airports within glide.

map page 2 is set up for thermalling- I use a pretty high zoom in so
I can see my circles, how round and where in the circle I'm climbing.
this is a huge help to center themals and keep track of the wind drift
while circing.
For nav boxes I use avg vario, wind speed and direction. I also use
larger fonts for this page. I don't have the latest version of SeeYou
mobile which has a thermal optimizer but it does show where I'm
climbing int the trace. Very easy to see.

the other pages of statistics are also great but I don't use them
much.

I never use the terrain color- way too much detail and too hard to
read.

I set up the buttons to toggle between map 1 and map 2
I set up the toggle bar like my GPS in my car, up is zoom in, down is
zoom out, but I usually leave the map scale alone.
I toggle back and forth with these two pages and get a lot of info in
a quick glance. I don't have to stare at the PDA.

I use the Clear /Touch cover on my PDA and I can see it fine. I use a
9 inch long gooseneck to help position the PDA better or as needed.

I use separte battery power to run the Volkslogger and PDA. When
everything is working it is an awesome system.

Many thanks to Navitar/SeeYou guys for making such a wonderful tool.
Both desktop and mobile. The desktop is great to manage the clunky
three button Volkslogger.

Dan Rihn
ASW-20 WO