Variometers for other Soaring Sports

[ContestID67]

I have noticed that there are lots of sports that also use variometers
and I have some comments/questions.

These variometers are for Power Parachutes, Hang Gliders, Balloons,
Ultralights, Parafoils to name a few. Here are some links;

http://www.ascentvario.com/
http://digiflyuk.com
http://brauniger.com
http://flytec.com
http://www.aircotec.ch

These are all standalone "outside the cockpit" variometers. I don't
know about their realiability or sensitivity how well these might work
"inside a cockpit". What I am impressed with is the innovative design
and feature sets of these devices.

Why don't these manufacturers build for our sport? Is it that soaring
aircraft are bound by archaic rules and regulations that other newer
flying sports are not? I suppose we all ask ourselves the same
questions about why our sport isn't seen as trendy and hip.

My $0.02.

- John DeRosa

[Cats]

On Nov 3, 4:25*am, ContestID67 > wrote:
> I have noticed that there are lots of sports that also use variometers
> and I have some comments/questions.
>
> These variometers are for Power Parachutes, Hang Gliders, Balloons,
> Ultralights, Parafoils to name a few. *Here are some links;
>
> * *http://www.ascentvario.com/
> * *http://digiflyuk.com
> * *http://brauniger.com
> * *http://flytec.com
> * *http://www.aircotec.ch
>
> These are all standalone "outside the cockpit" variometers. *I don't
> know about their realiability or sensitivity how well these might work
> "inside a cockpit". *What I am impressed with is the innovative design
> and feature sets of these devices.
>
> Why don't these manufacturers build for our sport? *Is it that soaring
> aircraft are bound by archaic rules and regulations that other newer
> flying sports are not? * I suppose we all ask ourselves the same
> questions about why our sport isn't seen as trendy and hip.

As I understand it, variometers for gliders need total energy
compensation for the information they provide to be reasonably
accurate. You can't fly fast and pull up in the kinds of craft you
mention. Thus, designing a variometer for a glider is a more
complicated matter than one for a balloon.

In addition gliders come under the aegis of EASA (in the EU) which
means that new instruments have to be certified, though whatever was
fitted when the glider was transitioned in was accepted.

[Peter Purdie[_4_]]

Since there is no certification standard for electronic variometers, they
can't be certified. This would be a problem if the statement below was
true, fortunately it isn't.

Only instruments required by the type certificate (normally ASI, Altimeter
and Magnetic compass) must be certified, others must be installed in a safe
manner and the installation signed for by an approved engineer.

It is true that some CAA inspectors pre-EASA certification tried to insist
on self launching gliders to have only Form 1/FAA8130-3 equipment fitted,
but sense eventually prevailed.

>In addition gliders come under the aegis of EASA (in the EU) which
>means that new instruments have to be certified, though whatever was
>fitted when the glider was transitioned in was accepted.
>

[Simon Taylor[_2_]]

At 10:45 03 November 2008, Peter Purdie wrote:
>Since there is no certification standard for electronic variometers,
they
>can't be certified. This would be a problem if the statement below was
>true, fortunately it isn't.
>
>Only instruments required by the type certificate (normally ASI,
Altimeter
>and Magnetic compass) must be certified, others must be installed in a
>safe
>manner and the installation signed for by an approved engineer.
>

That's good to hear - but what about variometers with a connection to the
pitot (airspeed sensor?)

[Simon Taylor[_2_]]

At 04:25 03 November 2008, ContestID67 wrote:
>I have noticed that there are lots of sports that also use variometers
>and I have some comments/questions.
>
>These are all standalone "outside the cockpit" variometers. I don't
>know about their realiability or sensitivity how well these might work
>"inside a cockpit". What I am impressed with is the innovative design
>and feature sets of these devices.
>

I agree that the range of features, apparent build quality etc are
impressive. But which features impressed you that mainstream sailplane
varios currently lack?

[Peter Purdie[_4_]]

Since LX7007/LX8000/C302/ILEC vario/flight directors are fitted to EASA
CofA sailplanes by major manufacturers (using a pitot connection common
with the ASI) then it must be assumed this is permissible.

At 12:15 03 November 2008, Simon Taylor wrote:
>At 10:45 03 November 2008, Peter Purdie wrote:
>>Since there is no certification standard for electronic variometers,
>they
>>can't be certified. This would be a problem if the statement below
was
>>true, fortunately it isn't.
>>
>>Only instruments required by the type certificate (normally ASI,
>Altimeter
>>and Magnetic compass) must be certified, others must be installed in a
>>safe
>>manner and the installation signed for by an approved engineer.
>>
>
>That's good to hear - but what about variometers with a connection to
the
>pitot (airspeed sensor?)
>
>

[Cats]

On Nov 3, 10:45*am, Peter Purdie > wrote:
> Since there is no certification standard for electronic variometers, they
> can't be certified. *This would be a problem if the statement below was
> true, fortunately it isn't.
>
> Only instruments required by the type certificate (normally ASI, Altimeter
> and Magnetic compass) must be certified, others must be installed in a safe
> manner and the installation signed for by an approved engineer.
>
> It is true that some CAA inspectors pre-EASA certification tried to insist
> on self launching gliders to have only Form 1/FAA8130-3 equipment fitted,
> but sense eventually prevailed.
>
>
>
> >In addition gliders come under the aegis of EASA (in the EU) which
> >means that new instruments have to be certified, though whatever was
> >fitted when the glider was transitioned in was accepted.

OK, so certification isn't a problem.

What about total energy compensation?

[Ron Gleason]

Glad that someone started this discussion. I switched from hang
gliding to sail planes a couple of years and am quite familiar with
the current crop of HG instruments.

The Flytec 6030 is a great instrument and I know a couple of sail
plane pilots that use it within their cockpits. The instrument has a
pitot tube and can be connected to gliders tubing quite easily. TE
compensation has been implemented electronically. My experience with
the 5030/6030 in a sailplane is that it works OK but speed range,
speed scales and TE and STF compensations need improvement for the
higher speeds and speed dynamics experienced.

I have spoken with the North American distributor and there is
discussion and potentially some work being done to offer a glider
version and to get the instrument IGC certified.

What would be the advantage? The largest one is cost and
functionality. These instruments are currently priced under $1,500
and provide logger, builtin GPS, vario, STF, flight computer
capabilities including contest flying, stand alone instrument, 35+
hours of battery life, airspace, all in a small durable package.
Great for a club, backup instrument, stand alone logger.

Ron Gleason

[Uncle Fuzzy]

On Nov 2, 8:25*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> I have noticed that there are lots of sports that also use variometers
> and I have some comments/questions.
>
> These variometers are for Power Parachutes, Hang Gliders, Balloons,
> Ultralights, Parafoils to name a few. *Here are some links;
>
> * *http://www.ascentvario.com/
> * *http://digiflyuk.com
> * *http://brauniger.com
> * *http://flytec.com
> * *http://www.aircotec.ch
>
> These are all standalone "outside the cockpit" variometers. *I don't
> know about their realiability or sensitivity how well these might work
> "inside a cockpit". *What I am impressed with is the innovative design
> and feature sets of these devices.
>
> Why don't these manufacturers build for our sport? *Is it that soaring
> aircraft are bound by archaic rules and regulations that other newer
> flying sports are not? * I suppose we all ask ourselves the same
> questions about why our sport isn't seen as trendy and hip.
>
> My $0.02.
>
> - John DeRosa

A very simple and cheap audio vario:
http://www.flyaboveall.com/mini.htm

My hearing is poor, so I clip it on my hat brim right next to me ear.
It reacts very quickly, and I find it useful for centering thermals.

[ContestID67]

Thanks to everyone who commented. I especially appreciated Ron's
comments from the "other side" of soaring.

Cats mentioned the need for TE, etc. Yes, that is true. I envision
that the manufacturers would create a glider specific version of their
product that would deal with our specific needs and form factors.

Simon wanted to know about features. What triggered this whole thread
was after looking at the http://www.ascentvario.com/ variometer. Here
are some of its features all packed into a case
1.75"x2.36"x0.63" (44mmx60mmx16mm) and weighing 1.4oz (40g). Solid
state digital, LCD display, Audio variometer, altimeter, VSI in m/s or
ft/min, averager, temperature, max alt, sink alarm, max climb, timers,
flight data recorder*, USB, car or AC charging. $299 with a car
charger. Even the site is much slicker than our glider variometers'
sites.

Could this and other non-glider manufacturers create something for our
market? Sure they could. But we have to ask why aren't they? Is our
market too small? Is it unknown? Is the grown of our market (and the
number of devices to be sold) too slow?

My $0.02.

- John DeRosa

* Flight number, date, time, duration, altitude (start/max/end), max
lift, max ave lift, max sink, temp (min/max). There is no GPS in this
model but there other manufacturers with GPS models. A few are FAI
certified flight recorders.

[ContestID67]

See http://www.flyaboveall.com for a whole collection of vario related
items intended for the non-glider crowd.

[Ian]

On 3 Nov, 07:17, Cats > wrote:

> In addition gliders come under the aegis of EASA (in the EU) which
> means that new instruments have to be certified, though whatever was
> fitted when the glider was transitioned in was accepted.

As I understand it, only the required instruments need to be
certified: ASI, altimeter and, in motor gliders only, compass.
Otherwise you can fly with what you like, just as power pilots have
been flying for years with non-certified GPS receivers, and nobody
needs a certified wris****ch.

Ian