New Pilot Advice

[[email protected]]

I thought I had taken up this hobby with a lot of enthusiasm until
last weekend. Prior to last weekend I thought I was making steady
progress, taking off landing, developing some touch on the stick. When
I go the field I approach the flight with butterflies and some fear. I
was told by an instuctor this is good when you lose those butterflies
don't fly. Last weekend conditions were deceptive. Relatively windy on
the ground 10-15 knots but apparently much tougher high up (according
to the crusty old tow pilot). We took off with me at the contols and
everything was fine until about 300 feet and something hit that 2
seater from the side and we flew into the air above and to right of
the tow plane, the instructor took over and we proceeded up to about
1000 feet and I took over again until about 2000 feet where the tow
plane hit a sink and dropped like a stone (I've dealt with this before
but not to this extreme) I was not fast enough and the instuctor took
over again. By this time I was really frightened and my confidence was
destroyed. I did manage to take the plane over and get a clean release
at 3000.

We then proceeded to hit some incredible thermals and my instuctor
intorduced me to the fine art of climbing a thermal with other gliders
in it. The thermals were pretty rough and the vario was pegged at
times. He had me doing tight turns until I started getting air sick
(this had only happened on one previous flight). We continued to ride
the thermals until I told the instuctor we better go down. I tried to
hold on I know he wanted to stay up.

When we got down on the ground I did not want the instuctor to notice
but my knees were shaking. I do not scare easily, I have had a lot of
other hobbies where danger is involved. My question to you experienced
pilots is this fear normal? I was really frightened. If you knew me
I'd never admit it to you. Is this something you can get over? This
experience left me wondering is this hobby for me?

BTW when we got down they were cleaning out another 2 seater where a
student threw up (he was up for about 20mins), at least I stayed up
for 45 mins and did not throw up. At least I got some satisfaction.
Thanks

[Tom Gardner]

On Nov 11, 12:18*am, wrote:
> I do not scare easily, I have had a lot of
> other hobbies where danger is involved. My question to you experienced
> pilots is this fear normal? I was really frightened. If you knew me
> I'd never admit it to you.

Listen to your instructor.

IMHO it is necessary to have an appropriate level of caution,
apprehension, fear, enjoyment, confidence. Too much of
any of those is dangerous.

> Is this something you can get over?

I could get over it, with time. I have no idea whether you could
get over it.

>This experience left me wondering is this hobby for me?

Only you can answer that.

[[email protected]]

You have sensed fear perhaps because you are not sure what happened. A
tow through booming lift (and the sink that goes with it hand in hand)
can make you fearful, but once you understand what happened some of
the fear will go away.

Talk to your instructor about how you need to be quick to respond to
the effects of flying through thermals on tow. Everything happens
faster and it is good practice. As you found out it means a great
flight is just ahead. Hopefully the upset feeling will diminish as you
get comfortable with stronger conditions and and experience lower
stress levels. I think it is normal to feel a bit upset if someone
else is flying on a bumpy day.

[Hal[_2_]]

On Nov 10, 4:18*pm, wrote:
> I thought I had taken up this hobby with a lot of enthusiasm until
> last weekend. Prior to last weekend I thought I was making steady
> progress, taking off landing, developing some touch on the stick. When
> I go the field I approach the flight with butterflies and some fear. I
> was told by an instuctor this is good when you lose those butterflies
> don't fly. Last weekend conditions were deceptive. Relatively windy on
> the ground 10-15 knots but apparently much tougher high up (according
> to the crusty old tow pilot). We took off with me at the contols and
> everything was fine until about 300 feet and something hit that 2
> seater from the side and we flew into the air above and to right of
> the tow plane, the instructor took over and we proceeded up to about
> 1000 feet and I took over again until about 2000 feet where the tow
> plane hit a sink and dropped like a stone (I've dealt with this before
> but not to this extreme) I was not fast enough and the instuctor took
> over again. By this time I was really frightened and my confidence was
> destroyed. I did manage to take the plane over and get a clean release
> at 3000.
>
> We then proceeded to hit some incredible thermals and my instuctor
> intorduced me to the fine art of climbing a thermal with other gliders
> in it. The thermals were pretty rough and the vario was pegged at
> times. He had me doing tight turns until I started getting air sick
> (this had only happened on one previous flight). We continued to ride
> the thermals until I told the instuctor we better go down. I tried to
> hold on I know he wanted to stay up.
>
> When we got down on the ground I did not want the instuctor to notice
> but my knees were shaking. I do not scare easily, I have had a lot of
> other hobbies where danger is involved. My question to you experienced
> pilots is this fear normal? I was really frightened. If you knew me
> I'd never admit it to you. Is this something you can get over? This
> experience left me wondering is this hobby for me?
>
> BTW when we got down they were cleaning out another 2 seater where a
> student threw up (he was up for about 20mins), at least I stayed up
> for 45 mins and did not throw up. At least I got some satisfaction.
> Thanks

To offer good advice one would have to know how long you have been
taking lessons. The best person to talk to is your instructor. If
you don’t feel comfortable talking to him/her then get another
instructor.

What you experienced would not be unusual if you are relatively new to
the sport and have not flown in severe conditions. Learning to fly
should be fun. Once you are in control and confident often the air
sickness is not an issue.

At some point you will need to be able to handle most of what mother
nature throws at you but that will come later.

[noel.wade]

Sorry to hear you had such a rough ordeal - and kudos to you for
having the courage to bring it up! Too many people would have just
tucked their tail and never come back...

As some of the others mentioned, how "bad" your reaction is depends on
how long you've been soaring AND what kind of soaring you want to
do.

Let me take that last bit and talk about it first: Just because some
of us delight in going hundreds of miles or flying in contests doesn't
mean YOU have to. If you find that you enjoy simple local soaring on
calm days, there is NOTHING WRONG with that.

And there's nothing wrong with deciding _not_ to fly when conditions
make you uncomfortable! There are legal limits to when we can fly,
but every pilot should develop their own "personal limits". Knowing
when you will be uncomfortable or unsafe is an important part of
staying out of trouble and enjoying your flying hobby.

Keep those tidbits tucked away in your brain. If nothing else they
will help calm you and reassure you that you don't have to beat
yourself up or be scared as part of flying.

Now, I will say that its a good thing to push your boundaries just a
little bit now and then - but you should do so willingly and
carefully. If you're worried about crosswinds, don't jump in the
cockpit someday when its blowing 25 knots across the runway! Start at
5mph and work your way up as you become comfortable.

It sounds to me like your instructor was being aggressive and jumped
into more serious flying than you were ready for. That's a little bit
of a knock on him, but YOU have a duty to tell him when you're not
comfortable with certain maneuvers or flying situations; so be sure to
keep that communication flowing! If you don't tell the instructor, he
can't help.

As you fly more and more, you will probably become comfortable with
more aggressive maneuvers and rougher air. It seems odd at first, but
in rough air you have to learn to let the glider to what it wants to a
certain degree (trying to hold a precise attitude or speed just won't
work); but you also have to learn to be aggressive with your
corrections, when you need to make one! To build confidence in this
(and to increase your rudder coordination skills), go up on a calm day
and work with the instructor on making hard entries into medium-banked
turns (30 to 45 degrees). Hold the turn for 90 or 180 degrees, roll-
out crisply (try to roll-out on a defined spot on the horizon), hold
level flight for a few seconds, then sharply enter a medium-banked
turn the other direction. This is also excellent practice for when
you start having to find and enter thermals, too. Work your way up to
using nearly-full aileron deflection and get comfortable with using
that much stick (side-to-side, watch your elevator inputs and keep
them gentle).

You will also find that you become a less air-sick over time;
ESPECIALLY once you've gotten used to flying solo and aren't nervous
about "getting it perfect" for the instructor. Sometimes we stress
ourselves or get "psych'ed out" by trying too hard. Remember to be
precise; but also remember that the instructor is there to HELP, and
its all practice...

I've been flying for 2 years now and I still occasionally get scared
in certain turbulence (usually near mountain-peaks); choppy air takes
a lot of getting used to - it takes time to develop the faith that
those thin bendy wings will hold up! But as long as you mind your
speed (below maneuvering/rough-air speed), they will.

Good luck and remember to pace yourself - the idea is to have fun so
don't let the instructor or other pilots force you into something you
don't want to do! Eventually you will be "Pilot In Command" and its
never too early to start learning how to exercise good judgement.

Take care,

--Noel

[[email protected]]

On Nov 10, 6:18*pm, wrote: By this time I was
really frightened and my confidence was
> destroyed.

Really sorry to hear this... You were just handed a little too much
for your skill level and that feeling is a natural reaction.
Sometimes we push our students a little too much. Don't worry about
it You are LEARNING. Remember that. You aren't supposed to be able
to handle everything yet. It's normal for the instructor to take over
occasionally. Later, when you've mastered the skills you'll be flying
tow in those conditions with enthusiasm!

Matt Michael

[[email protected]]

I just want to add my 2 cents worth. I agree with everything that has
been said here. You have the right to say "knock it off" at anytime. I
don't know how much flying you've done but don't be concerned if the
instructor takes the controls. He's/She's there to help you. If the
rough air bothers you right now, ask your instructor for a few flights
in calmer air to get your confidence back, then proceed at your pace.

I'm a relatively new pilot myself. I started 2 1/2 years ago and got
my ticket last December. It was a bumpy ride (so to speak), with ups,
downs, and plateaus. There were times that I also questioned whether I
was doing the right thing, especially when one instructor made me sick
on a hot day doing steep turns trying to stay up. But now I'm on my
own and flying a Pik-20. Recently I had a four hour flight. I didn't
think it was ever going to happen, and man it felt good. All the tough
times are worth going through.

Hang in there my friend. What you are going through is NORMAL. Just
remember to learn from every flight.

Warren Evans

[Jim Logajan]

wrote:
> I thought I had taken up this hobby with a lot of enthusiasm until
> last weekend. Prior to last weekend I thought I was making steady
> progress, taking off landing, developing some touch on the stick. When
> I go the field I approach the flight with butterflies and some fear.

Sounds exactly like what happened to me this summer when I started. There
was always a bit of butterflies and some fear on the ~30 minute drive to
the airfield for the first 41 flights (about 3 flights a day). I'll let
you know if I still have them on the drive to the airfield for the 42nd
flight - which probably wont happen till next spring!

> I was told by an instuctor this is good when you lose those butterflies
> don't fly.

I'm too inexperienced to advise otherwise, but perhaps it is just as
important to always treat each flight as a potentially deadly serious but
enjoyable undertaking, butterflies or not.

> Last weekend conditions were deceptive. Relatively windy on
> the ground 10-15 knots but apparently much tougher high up (according
> to the crusty old tow pilot). We took off with me at the contols and
> everything was fine until about 300 feet and something hit that 2
> seater from the side and we flew into the air above and to right of
> the tow plane, the instructor took over and we proceeded up to about
> 1000 feet and I took over again until about 2000 feet where the tow
> plane hit a sink and dropped like a stone (I've dealt with this before
> but not to this extreme) I was not fast enough and the instuctor took
> over again. By this time I was really frightened and my confidence was
> destroyed. I did manage to take the plane over and get a clean release
> at 3000.

I haven't run into anything as bad as that yet, but definitely have had
some gusty days that made the aerotows challenging. And landings -
nothing more unsettling to me than dealing with unsettled air on final.

> We then proceeded to hit some incredible thermals and my instuctor
> intorduced me to the fine art of climbing a thermal with other gliders
> in it. The thermals were pretty rough and the vario was pegged at
> times. He had me doing tight turns until I started getting air sick
> (this had only happened on one previous flight). We continued to ride
> the thermals until I told the instuctor we better go down. I tried to
> hold on I know he wanted to stay up.

You're paying for the ride. The one day we got great thermals I used the
altitude gains to practice slips at altitude (I'm too cheap to pay for
the extra tow height. ;-))

> When we got down on the ground I did not want the instuctor to notice
> but my knees were shaking. I do not scare easily, I have had a lot of
> other hobbies where danger is involved. My question to you experienced
> pilots is this fear normal? I was really frightened. If you knew me
> I'd never admit it to you. Is this something you can get over? This
> experience left me wondering is this hobby for me?

Again, I'm not experienced, but it was recommended to me that one should
get back up in the air as soon as possible after an unsettling incident -
lest one dwell too long and get permanent cold feet. Been there with one
scary incident, had that recommended to me, and though it didn't kill my
butterflies I didn't get permanent cold feet either.

In the end only you can decide whether, on balance, the good points of
the sport outweigh the risks.

> BTW when we got down they were cleaning out another 2 seater where a
> student threw up (he was up for about 20mins), at least I stayed up
> for 45 mins and did not throw up. At least I got some satisfaction.

Take it where you can get it, I guess! :-)

[[email protected]]

On Nov 10, 10:33*pm, wrote:
> I just want to add my 2 cents worth. I agree with everything that has
> been said here. You have the right to say "knock it off" at anytime. I
> don't know how much flying you've done but don't be concerned if the
> instructor takes the controls. He's/She's there to help you. If the
> rough air bothers you right now, ask your instructor for a few flights
> in calmer air to get your confidence back, then proceed at your pace.
>
> I'm a relatively new pilot myself. I started 2 1/2 years ago and got
> my ticket last December. It was a bumpy ride (so to speak), with ups,
> downs, and plateaus. There were times that I also questioned whether I
> was doing the right thing, especially when one instructor made me sick
> on a hot day doing steep turns trying to stay up. But now I'm on my
> own and flying a Pik-20. Recently I had a four hour flight. I didn't
> think it was ever going to happen, and man it felt good. All the tough
> times are worth going through.
>
> Hang in there my friend. What you are going through is NORMAL. Just
> remember to learn from every flight.
>
> Warren Evans

thanks to all that posted I'm certainly not giving up. My fear you see
was an unexpected new reaction. I've ripped down a mountain on a
mountain bike, windsurfed in some foolish conditions, hiked through
some dangerous moutains in Colombia (people issues mostly) but this
glider business is new. That flight was my 11th flight in a glider. I
have been in airplanes since I was 6 months old, never had a problem
with them. But on the other had I have never been a pilot either. I
was very disappointed in my reaction. Those thermals were ripping. At
least that part was fun.

[[email protected]]

>
> thanks to all that posted I'm certainly not giving up. My fear you see
> was an unexpected new reaction. I've ripped down a mountain on a
> mountain bike, windsurfed in some foolish conditions, hiked through
> some dangerous moutains in Colombia (people issues mostly) but this
> glider business is new. That flight was my 11th flight in a glider. I
> have been in airplanes since I was 6 months old, never had a problem
> with them. But on the other had I have never been a pilot either. I
> was very disappointed in my reaction. Those thermals were ripping. At
> least that part was fun.


It's a total wilderness up there in a glider. And it's a wilderness
that you have almost no natural ability to navigate. A ripping day on
your 11th flight! Wholly Crap Man! It's not like other flying. Give
it a little time. You will rock.

[[email protected]]

Your instructor was not doing his job in the best manner possible. No
harm in flying in conditions way above the student's head but an
introduction to the "wild side" must stay within the student's comfort
zone as this is the only condition in which learning can occur. He
"owed" you a pre-briefing as to what you should expect in this
environment, and an explicit discussion about terminating the flight
should you feel the need.

It is the instructor's duty to discern the student's emotional
condition, abilities, and experience levels and ensure that he is able
to learn. Note that your education is only goal of the flight! The
instructor's natural desire to have fun in the ripping conditions is
unimportant and in this case, counterproductive to your progress. I
would submit that the instructor failed his duties in this particular
instance in not recognizing your emotional state and by not being
proactive in ensuring your mental/emotional comfort. The CFI whose
student became airsick really blew it. In both instances, the student
learned "negative lessons" - that flying makes them afraid and/or
airsick. As you have already recognized, these are steps backward in
learning to fly.

Fear is a common and reasonable behavior when confronted by
circumstances beyond your control and experience. Acknowledge that
fact and move on. As part of that analysis, I would seriously evaluate
the instructors available to you and select one based on their
commitment to your needs as a student needs and their obligations as a
teacher.

[[email protected]]

On Nov 10, 8:12*pm, wrote:
> On Nov 10, 10:33*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
> > I just want to add my 2 cents worth. I agree with everything that has
> > been said here. You have the right to say "knock it off" at anytime. I
> > don't know how much flying you've done but don't be concerned if the
> > instructor takes the controls. He's/She's there to help you. If the
> > rough air bothers you right now, ask your instructor for a few flights
> > in calmer air to get your confidence back, then proceed at your pace.
>
> > I'm a relatively new pilot myself. I started 2 1/2 years ago and got
> > my ticket last December. It was a bumpy ride (so to speak), with ups,
> > downs, and plateaus. There were times that I also questioned whether I
> > was doing the right thing, especially when one instructor made me sick
> > on a hot day doing steep turns trying to stay up. But now I'm on my
> > own and flying a Pik-20. Recently I had a four hour flight. I didn't
> > think it was ever going to happen, and man it felt good. All the tough
> > times are worth going through.
>
> > Hang in there my friend. What you are going through is NORMAL. Just
> > remember to learn from every flight.
>
> > Warren Evans
>
> thanks to all that posted I'm certainly not giving up. My fear you see
> was an unexpected new reaction. I've ripped down a mountain on a
> mountain bike, windsurfed in some foolish conditions, hiked through
> some dangerous moutains in Colombia (people issues mostly) but this
> glider business is new. That flight was my 11th flight in a glider. I
> have been in airplanes since I was 6 months old, never had a problem
> with them. But on the other had I have never been a pilot either. I
> was very disappointed in my reaction. Those thermals were ripping. At
> least that part was fun.

Sounds like you got into a deeper part of the pool than you were
accustomed to. Not a problem - it's part of learning. Do a de-brief
with your instructor. Every training program includes recovery from
unusual attitudes - but not at flight #11 generally. You will need to
come back to the situations you experienced eventually before you solo
- by then you will have practiced and will know how to deal with them
with confidence, I'm sure.

Hopefully all the words here have encouraged you to not fret too much.
But, as has been said by another poster, your training is a matter
solely between you and your instructor.

Nine Bravo

[Bruce]

We tend to forget the extreme nature of what we do after a while.
In this instance the instructor probably was at fault in not making sure
you understood the implications of the conditions. Which were probably
strong but not extreme.

There is a little mnemonic that goes - Aviate-Navigate-Communicate

The decode is -
Aviate - First fly the aircraft, and in this case the instructor is
there to take over when things get rough. His/her backside is also on
the line, but that does not necessarily mean he/she has the same
tolerance for risk as you.

Navigate - On tow, this is pretty much IFR -( I Follow the Rope) but in
turbulent conditions you need to anticipate based on what the tug
experiences. Your wing loading is much lower - whatever the tug does,
you will do more of. Best to plan where you are going.

Communicate - If the instructor failed to communicate what the
experience would likely be, or for whatever reason you are not confident
(note - I did not say comfortable, because a lot of learning comes from
discomfort) then say something. He/she should be able to read the stress
in your body language and flying, but glider pilots are not renowned
for their social skills.


If it is any consolation even the best sometimes have to abandon a tow
because of a getting out of position. One excellent thing to learn from
these conditions (because the signals are so strong) is that your glider
will experience what the tug experiences , a couple of seconds later. So
when you see the tug climbing like a homesick angel, get ready for the
thermal to hit. If he has full left aileron in, and is failing to turn,
best anticipate a little. Your roll rate/control authority will be less
than his.

Handled correctly (right attitude from both instructor and student) -
flying in conditions that stretch your experience can/should be a great
learning experience.


wrote:
> I thought I had taken up this hobby with a lot of enthusiasm until
> last weekend. Prior to last weekend I thought I was making steady
> progress, taking off landing, developing some touch on the stick. When
> I go the field I approach the flight with butterflies and some fear. I
> was told by an instuctor this is good when you lose those butterflies
> don't fly. Last weekend conditions were deceptive. Relatively windy on
> the ground 10-15 knots but apparently much tougher high up (according
> to the crusty old tow pilot). We took off with me at the contols and
> everything was fine until about 300 feet and something hit that 2
> seater from the side and we flew into the air above and to right of
> the tow plane, the instructor took over and we proceeded up to about
> 1000 feet and I took over again until about 2000 feet where the tow
> plane hit a sink and dropped like a stone (I've dealt with this before
> but not to this extreme) I was not fast enough and the instuctor took
> over again. By this time I was really frightened and my confidence was
> destroyed. I did manage to take the plane over and get a clean release
> at 3000.
>
> We then proceeded to hit some incredible thermals and my instuctor
> intorduced me to the fine art of climbing a thermal with other gliders
> in it. The thermals were pretty rough and the vario was pegged at
> times. He had me doing tight turns until I started getting air sick
> (this had only happened on one previous flight). We continued to ride
> the thermals until I told the instuctor we better go down. I tried to
> hold on I know he wanted to stay up.
>
> When we got down on the ground I did not want the instuctor to notice
> but my knees were shaking. I do not scare easily, I have had a lot of
> other hobbies where danger is involved. My question to you experienced
> pilots is this fear normal? I was really frightened. If you knew me
> I'd never admit it to you. Is this something you can get over? This
> experience left me wondering is this hobby for me?
>
> BTW when we got down they were cleaning out another 2 seater where a
> student threw up (he was up for about 20mins), at least I stayed up
> for 45 mins and did not throw up. At least I got some satisfaction.
> Thanks

[Cats]

On Nov 11, 12:18*am, wrote:
> I thought I had taken up this hobby with a lot of enthusiasm until
> last weekend. Prior to last weekend I thought I was making steady
> progress, taking off landing, developing some touch on the stick. When
> I go the field I approach the flight with butterflies and some fear. I
> was told by an instuctor this is good when you lose those butterflies
> don't fly. Last weekend conditions were deceptive. Relatively windy on
> the ground 10-15 knots but apparently much tougher high up (according
> to the crusty old tow pilot). We took off with me at the contols and
> everything was fine until about 300 feet and something hit that 2
> seater from the side and we flew into the air above and to right of
> the tow plane, the instructor took over and we proceeded up to about
> 1000 feet and I took over again until about 2000 feet where the tow
> plane hit a sink and dropped like a stone (I've dealt with this before
> but not to this extreme) I was not fast enough and the instuctor took
> over again. By this time I was really frightened and my confidence was
> destroyed. I did manage to take the plane over and get a clean release
> at 3000.
>
> We then proceeded to hit some incredible thermals and my instuctor
> intorduced me to the fine art of climbing a thermal with other gliders
> in it. The thermals were pretty rough and the vario was pegged at
> times. He had me doing tight turns until I started getting air sick
> (this had only happened on one previous flight). We continued to ride
> the thermals until I told the instuctor we better go down. I tried to
> hold on I know he wanted to stay up.
>
> When we got down on the ground I did not want the instuctor to notice
> but my knees were shaking. I do not scare easily, I have had a lot of
> other hobbies where danger is involved. My question to you experienced
> pilots is this fear normal? I was really frightened. If you knew me
> I'd never admit it to you. Is this something you can get over? This
> experience left me wondering is this hobby for me?
>
> BTW when we got down they were cleaning out another 2 seater where a
> student threw up (he was up for about 20mins), at least I stayed up
> for 45 mins and did not throw up. At least I got some satisfaction.
> Thanks

Lots and lots of good advice. My 1c is that learning to fly was a
series of luches for me - forward progress one week, backward another
and I think that's pretty normal as well. Increases & decreases in
confidence went with it. I have my Silver C now and my own glider,
and I still have the pre-flight butterflies and doubt they will ever
really go away.

But don't hide your reaction to the flight from your instructor -
discuss it. Debrief not just your flying but your emotional reaction
to it as well.

BTW I am deeply jealous of you having thermals in mid-November. Here
we are hoping for the odd flyable day with wave, and they don't come
along very often.

[Tom Gardner]

On Nov 11, 4:12*am, wrote:
> thanks to all that posted I'm certainly not giving up. My fear you see
> was an unexpected new reaction. I've ripped down a mountain on a
> mountain bike, windsurfed in some foolish conditions, hiked through
> some dangerous moutains in Colombia (people issues mostly) but this
> glider business is new. That flight was my 11th flight in a glider. I
> have been in airplanes since I was 6 months old, never had a problem
> with them. But on the other had I have never been a pilot either. I
> was very disappointed in my reaction. Those thermals were ripping. At
> least that part was fun.

Glad to hear you're not giving up.

Fear is a normal experience, and shouldn't be suppressed completely.
While learning, you have a guardian angel behind you, and their neck
is on the line too. They are there to dig you out of a (metaphorical!)
hole.

As you progress they will start to put you in unexpected "now get out
of that" situations, e.g. while making a normal approach, one
instructor
took over, dived towards the launch point, pulled up when almost over
it and calmly said "you have control". And of course you'll never
forget
your first spin, nor your first spin starting at ~100ft :)

Of course, if you don't have confidence in your instructor's ability,
find
another instructor. OTOH, if you don't have confidence in your own
ability while learning, then "welcome to the club".

It is always fun to watch instructors being tested - the examining
instructor typically plays the part of a *subtly* incompetent pupil,
and
checks that the instructor-under-test gives the pupil enough room but
not a dangerous amount of room. The resulting approaches and landings
can be fun and instructive to watch.

Finally, my apologies if my first reply was too brusque.

[HL Falbaum[_2_]]

> wrote in message
...
>I thought I had taken up this hobby with a lot of enthusiasm until
> last weekend. Prior to last weekend I thought I was making steady
> progress, taking off landing, developing some touch on the stick. When
> I go the field I approach the flight with butterflies and some fear. I
> was told by an instuctor this is good when you lose those butterflies
> don't fly. Last weekend conditions were deceptive. Relatively windy on
> the ground 10-15 knots but apparently much tougher high up (according
> to the crusty old tow pilot). We took off with me at the contols and
> everything was fine until about 300 feet and something hit that 2
> seater from the side and we flew into the air above and to right of
> the tow plane, the instructor took over and we proceeded up to about
> 1000 feet and I took over again until about 2000 feet where the tow
> plane hit a sink and dropped like a stone (I've dealt with this before
> but not to this extreme) I was not fast enough and the instuctor took
> over again. By this time I was really frightened and my confidence was
> destroyed. I did manage to take the plane over and get a clean release
> at 3000.
>
> We then proceeded to hit some incredible thermals and my instuctor
> intorduced me to the fine art of climbing a thermal with other gliders
> in it. The thermals were pretty rough and the vario was pegged at
> times. He had me doing tight turns until I started getting air sick
> (this had only happened on one previous flight). We continued to ride
> the thermals until I told the instuctor we better go down. I tried to
> hold on I know he wanted to stay up.
>
> When we got down on the ground I did not want the instuctor to notice
> but my knees were shaking. I do not scare easily, I have had a lot of
> other hobbies where danger is involved. My question to you experienced
> pilots is this fear normal? I was really frightened. If you knew me
> I'd never admit it to you. Is this something you can get over? This
> experience left me wondering is this hobby for me?
>
> BTW when we got down they were cleaning out another 2 seater where a
> student threw up (he was up for about 20mins), at least I stayed up
> for 45 mins and did not throw up. At least I got some satisfaction.
> Thanks

Good advice all, but-----
They have tiptoed around the real answer.
You are, by your own claim, a person who enjoys motion sports and adrenalin
infusion. Were you comfortable immediately the first time you rode a
mountain bike? Did you "rip down the mountain" on that ride? I'd guess not.

The real questions are--Was the instructor frightened, did s/he consider it
fairly routine? Were other experienced pilots that day having fun? If so,
then you will too, eventually. As you become accustomed to the sensations,
and your reactions become faster and more subtle through experience, you
will bcome less and less anxious. Eventually you will enjoy the sensations.

I, too, experienced the same, but after the first couple of hundred flights,
it became routine. Now 1300 launches later, each flight is still special.

Hang in there---it won't be long before you find mountain biking boring and
soaring will occupy all your free thoughts.

Hartley Falbaum, CFIG, USA

[Ian]

On 11 Nov, 00:18, wrote:

> When we got down on the ground I did not want the instuctor to notice
> but my knees were shaking. I do not scare easily, I have had a lot of
> other hobbies where danger is involved. My question to you experienced
> pilots is this fear normal? I was really frightened. If you knew me
> I'd never admit it to you. Is this something you can get over? This
> experience left me wondering is this hobby for me?

It sounds to me as if you were taken up on a rough and unpleasant day
and asked to do things way byond your current skill level - wild
aerotow, sharing a thermal, tight enough turns to make you sick and so
on.

Of coure you were scared. Anybody sensible would be scared in the
circumstances, so it is NOT a fault on your part.

It does, however, sound like a sequence of faults on your instructor's
part. It sound as if you had the misfortune to have a macho fool
behind you who wanted to show off
and either couldn't care less or, more likely, revelled in the effect
he was producing.

If you have an irrational fear of flight but want to glide you will be
able to do it, but it will take time. If you have an entirely rational
fear of situations beyond your ability, treasure it. The accident
statistics are full of people who should have felt fear but didn't.

What to do now? Well, first of all, get another instructor. Don't
waste any time with the last one - his aviation judgement is proven
bad. Explain that you were taken up on a really wild day and got
frightened. Any decent instructor will sympathise and work with you on
a plan to rebuild your confidence.

Goodluck,

Ian

[Ian]

On 11 Nov, 05:47, wrote:

> But, as has been said by another poster, your training is a matter
> solely between you and your instructor.

I disagree. If the instructor is incompetent - and this one sounds
rotten - then the pupil should tke the initiative and get another one.
If it was a UK gliding club I'd hope the OP would discuss the
situation rankly with his CFI (Chief Flying Instructor) and that the
CFI would have the sense to deal with the instructor.

Ian

[Ian]

On 11 Nov, 05:10, " > wrote:
> Your instructor was not doing his job in the best manner possible. No
> harm in flying in conditions way above the student's head but an
> introduction to the "wild side" must stay within the student's comfort
> zone as this is the only condition in which learning can occur. He
> "owed" you a pre-briefing as to what you should expect in this
> environment, and an explicit discussion about terminating the flight
> should you feel the need.
>
> It is the instructor's duty to discern the student's emotional
> condition, abilities, and experience levels and ensure that he is able
> to learn. Note that your education is only goal of the flight! The
> instructor's natural desire to have fun in the ripping conditions is
> unimportant and in this case, counterproductive to your progress. I
> would submit that the instructor failed his duties in this particular
> instance in not recognizing your emotional state and by not being
> proactive in ensuring your mental/emotional comfort. The CFI whose
> student became airsick really blew it. In both instances, the student
> learned "negative lessons" - that flying makes them afraid and/or
> airsick. As you have already recognized, these are steps backward in
> learning to fly.
>
> Fear is a common and reasonable behavior when confronted by
> circumstances beyond your control and experience. Acknowledge that
> fact and move on. As part of that analysis, I would seriously evaluate
> the instructors available to you and select one based on their
> commitment to your needs as a student needs and their obligations as a
> teacher.

Very well put, sir.

Ian

[Cats]

On Nov 11, 4:24*pm, Ian > wrote:
> On 11 Nov, 05:47, wrote:
>
> > But, as has been said by another poster, your training is a matter
> > solely between you and your instructor.
>
> I disagree. If the instructor is incompetent - and this one sounds
> rotten - then the pupil should tke the initiative and get another one.
> If it was a UK gliding club I'd hope the OP would discuss the
> situation rankly with his CFI (Chief Flying Instructor) and that the
> CFI would have the sense to deal with the instructor.

Let's hope the OP wasn't flying *with* the CFI! However it is very
true that not all instructors work for all students, and also that who
does and doesn't work changes as time & experience change - both the
instructors and the students.

And in the future, remember that 1) it's much, much, much better to be
on the ground wishing you were in the air than the other way round.
Especially once you are flying solo... Therefore, 2) never stay in
the air just because you *think* the instructor wants to. If you
discuss it and they actually do want you to stay up, ask why and if
you are not happy with the answer insist on going back down.

[Brad[_2_]]

> I disagree. If the instructor is incompetent - and this one sounds
> rotten - then the pupil should tke the initiative and get another one.

I had this happen when I was getting my power ticket. The instructor
so micro-managed that by the end of the flight lessons I would give
him the controls and say "you land it". At the time I was a rated
glider pilot with almost 400 hours. The FBO recognized there was a
problem and assigned me another instructor...................problem
solved.

I learned to fly when I was in my late teens/early 20's..........I was
really in to learning to fly gliders, and was fearless. Not sure if
this was a good thing or not............flash forward to now and
almost 2000 hours, 1500 in sailplanes, the rest in hang gliders and
SEL. I still get that feeling in the gut at times that tells me to pay
full attention to what I am doing...........I also listen to my inner
voice when it tells me to stay on the ground, or to scale back my
flight goals for the day. I think this is a very important skill to
nurture, along with all the others required to operate safely in the
sky.

I also have a whole bunch of "oh S_ _ T" stories in all 3 types of
craft I've flown over the years. I survived all of them, learned from
all of them, and also strongly believe they shaped the type of pilot I
have become.

My advice............if this is what you want to do, most likely you
will be succsesful....................good luck!

Brad
199AK

[Ed Gaddy[_2_]]

Welcome to soaring! Sounds like you went up on a day high time pilots
would call fun. Don't worry, most students or passengers, would be sick
by the time you got off tow. What you probably experienced was a feeling
of loss of control. The fact that you recognized that you were getting
airsick and ask to come down before you threw up, is a good sign.
Lots of (daredevil types) pilots get airsick when learning to fly. When
the instructor has to take control in these conditions, you lose
confidence in your ability to control the glider. All you learned in
rough air, is that you are not ready to handle the conditions. No
different than a beginning mountain biker on a trail way over his head.
Lucky for you, the instructor can take over when you loose control in a
glider. The instructor has a tendency to expose you to rougher conditions
than he would a meeker student. The fear you experience is no different
than when you started down a narley MTB trail the first time.
Primary instruction (at least in the beginning phase) should occur in
mild conditions. Arrive at the airport early in the day or later when
conditions are calmer. As, your lessons progress, you will learn that you
can handle the conditions and remain in control of the glider. Don,t worry
about thermaling or or staying up in rough conditions yet. Lots of high
time pilot got sick early on. Myself, I was airsick in 15 minutes, for
about the first 10 lessons. As I progressed, the airsickness slowly went
away. By the way, I have been flying and mountain biking for 30 years, and
neither is boring.

Ed Gaddy, Cycle Logic Bicycle Shop

[Ian]

On 11 Nov, 16:43, Cats > wrote:

> Therefore, 2) never stay in
> the air just because you *think* the instructor wants to. If you
> discuss it and they actually do want you to stay up, ask why and if
> you are not happy with the answer insist on going back down.

Absolutely. In fact I would go further and say "never waste time
wondering what instructors want you to do". Ask them! You're supposed
to be learning how to fly a glider, not to predict how someone else
would do it - and instructional flights are for the benefit of One
Person Only.

Ian

[[email protected]]

On Nov 11, 11:15*am, Ed Gaddy > wrote:
> *Welcome to soaring! Sounds like you went up on a day high time pilots
> would call fun. Don't worry, most students or passengers, would be sick
> by the time you got off tow. What you probably experienced was a feeling
> of loss of control. The fact that you recognized that you were getting
> airsick and ask to come down before you threw up, is a good sign.
> *Lots of (daredevil types) pilots get airsick when learning to fly. When
> the instructor has to take control in these conditions, you lose
> confidence in your ability to control the glider. All you learned in
> rough air, is that you are not ready to handle the conditions. No
> different than a beginning mountain biker on a trail way over his head.
> Lucky for you, the instructor can take over when you loose control in a
> glider. The instructor has a tendency to expose you to rougher conditions
> than he would a meeker student. The fear you experience is no different
> than when you started down a narley MTB trail the first time.
> *Primary instruction (at least in the beginning phase) should occur in
> mild conditions. Arrive at the airport early in the day or later when
> conditions are calmer. As, your lessons progress, you will learn that you
> can handle the conditions and remain in control of the glider. Don,t worry
> about thermaling or or staying up in rough conditions yet. Lots of high
> time pilot got sick early on. Myself, I was airsick in 15 minutes, for
> about the first 10 lessons. As I progressed, the airsickness slowly went
> away. By the way, I have been flying and mountain biking for 30 years, and
> neither is boring.
>
> Ed Gaddy, * *Cycle Logic Bicycle Shop

Great post Ed. And by the way, I'm looking for a 32 hole Mavic GP4.
Any leads?

Matt Michael CFIG

[[email protected]]

First of all folks I do not blame my instructor. He was excellent. I
was very understated in my inflight compliants to the instructor. In
fact I think he was excellent. 1) he took over the plane immediatelly
when he thought we hit something nasty. 2) each time there was a
problem he gave me time to settle down and then asked me if I wanted
to take over, but did not force it on me 3) when I told him I was
getting a little air sick-he asked if I wanted to go down I said no
and managed to get through about 15 to 20 min more of flight 4) we
worked as a team when doing the thermals taking turns flying and when
I was not flying I was the spotter as you all know in the back seat
the visuals are resticted this was very instructive and I learned a
lot 5) when I did let him know I was feeling worse he went down and
landed right away. After about an hour on the ground I was fine.
During the flight he kept up a runnig commentary on speed, climb and
sink, thermal climbing, other planes, landmarks, the planes L/D ratio
and our distance from the AP an other little verbal tests.

Actually I wanted to try and land the plane as I had already done that
the previous 4 flights but he did not let me. We had a good debrief
and he did say conditions were rough but it would take awhile to get
used to and he was sure I could do it.

[glider]

Cats wrote:

> Let's hope the OP wasn't flying *with* the CFI!


Terminology, folks. On the left side of the pond, CFI is Certified
Flight instructor - not Chief Flight Instructor.

Tony V.

[soarbooks]

On Nov 10, 7:18*pm, wrote:
....When we got down on the ground I did not want the instructor to
notice
> but my knees were shaking. I do not scare easily, I have had a lot of
> other hobbies where danger is involved. My question to you experienced
> pilots is this fear normal? I was really frightened. If you knew me
> I'd never admit it to you. Is this something you can get over? This
> experience left me wondering is this hobby for me?

Good evening , You ask some penetrating questions.
Here is my response to help you sort out the risks, as well as the
rewards, of soaring.
It's your call!
Safe soaring,
Bob Wander

PS: During turbulence of any kind, whether on aerotow or in free
flight, it's amazing how a really snug & secure lap belt shoulder
harness combination can make you feel that you can handle just about
anything that comes along. And on the other hand, if lap belt /
shoulder harness are loose, it makes one feel ... vulnerable. So
tighten up!

++++++++++
The following is excerpted from my book "Everybody's First Gliding
Book".

"Risk Management & Soaring.
If you are fairly new to soaring, chances are that you've spent some
time evaluating the risks that accompany the rewards of our sport.
Chances are also good that you have reached several conclusions, as
follow.
1) There are risks inherent in any air sport (including soaring) and
2) You don't yet know enough about the sport of soaring to recognize,
understand, and evaluate all of those risks.
This article will help you discover what the principal risks are, and
how you can manage them.

Risk is inherent in every human enterprise. Activity sports such as
skiing, tennis, and rock climbing entail risk. Humdrum daily chores
like driving an automobile or slicing an onion entail risk. Traveling
on a commercial airliner entails risk. Entering into marriage entails
risk. Having children entails risk. Career choices entail risk.

Even just sitting around, avoiding every possible identifiable risk
factor, doing absolutely nothing with your life, entails risk: The
risk that, if ever you come to your senses, you will be running out of
time to do worthwhile and satisfying things in the remaining lifetime
allotted to you.

In short, risk is everywhere. That's life! The trick is to strike an
acceptable balance between the risks and the rewards.

So... what are the major risks in soaring? Major risks are the risks
that pose a threat to life and limb. Here they are, and here is what
you can do to manage each risk.

An improperly prepared glider or towplane can hurt you in a hurry.
When you take to the air, your aircraft is nothing less than your life
support system. A glider that is improperly assembled (rigged), or
that is incompletely assembled, is a potential deathtrap. There is no
room for carelessness or oversight when it comes to preparing and
inspecting your life support system before flight. Ask your CFIG for
ground instruction on how to perform a pre-flight inspection and a
positive control check. Towpilots should apply the same level of care
to pre-flighting each towplane system (fuel, engine, prop, flight
controls, tow hook and tow release mechanism, tires and wheelbrakes,
etc.) not only for your protection but to protect their own skins too.
Naturally, the towline and rings should get careful scrutiny as well.
In some aerotow glider operations, glider pilots expect the towpilot
to keep an eye on the condition of the towline. I don't think that you
would be wise to buy that line of thinking, if only for the reason
that it isn't the towpilot who gets tossed into the stewpot when the
towline breaks - it's the glider pilot. Your job as a glider pilot is
to stay out of stewpots whenever possible, so make it a habit to get a
good close look at the towlines and rings.

Any launch, at any time, has the possibility of failing. Work with
your CFIG to develop skill and confidence in dealing with launch
failures, whether simulated or real.

After takeoff, climbout, and release, you and your glider are in free
flight. Mid-air collision avoidance requires you to remain alert and
to focus your eyes and attention outside the cockpit. Areas and
airspaces of concentrated air traffic include thermals with a gaggle
of gliders, Victor airways, the perimeter of Class B and Class C
airspace, airspace that is near airports and gliderports, Military
Operations Areas (MOAs), and other traffic concentrators. Acquire a
current sectional chart and ask your glider flight instructor and
cross country glider pilots to help you identify the high density
traffic areas near the gliderport where you fly. Hunt the skies for
other aircraft. See them and avoid them.

Another risk factor in free flight is internal - it is you, and the
judgments that you make (or sometimes fail to make). As a rule, air
sports are not particularly forgiving of general carelessness. If you
fail to maintain situational awareness, or if you fail to exercise
reasonable in-flight judgment, you can find yourself in a jam so
sticky that your budding stick-and-rudder skills are insufficient to
get you unstuck.

The approach to landing is one of the most critical flight phases, and
it is in this phase of flight that the majority of serious accidents
occur. The principal risks in the landing phase of flight include
collision with other air traffic, landing short of the intended
runway, and stalling and/or spinning.

Airports tend to concentrate air traffic in the same way that beehives
tend to concentrate bee traffic. Airports are where aircraft live when
they are not flying, and airports are where aircraft are usually
headed when they are flying. Arrive at your destination airport with
plenty of time and altitude to scope out the situation, detect other
traffic, and make an orderly approach and landing. Maintain the target
airspeed and coordinate your turns in the approach. Remember that the
traffic pattern is not an end itself, but is only a means to an end -
the desired end result is a safe landing. At the appropriate stage in
your flight training program, ask your CFIG for ground and flight
instruction in how to make a safe landing from an abnormal position in
the approach.

Management of your personal risk is your personal business. No one
else can manage this risk for you. That is one of the great
attractions of soaring: The decisions that you make are important
decisions. It is entirely up to you."

[[email protected]]

On Nov 11, 8:24*am, Ian > wrote:
> On 11 Nov, 05:47, wrote:
>
> > But, as has been said by another poster, your training is a matter
> > solely between you and your instructor.
>
> I disagree. If the instructor is incompetent - and this one sounds
> rotten - then the pupil should tke the initiative and get another one.
> If it was a UK gliding club I'd hope the OP would discuss the
> situation rankly with his CFI (Chief Flying Instructor) and that the
> CFI would have the sense to deal with the instructor.
>
> Ian

I disagree with you Ian - or perhaps you missed my intent. If you take
instruction from r.a.s. you have dozens of "instructors" - which means
you really have no instructor at all and no accountability to the
student or the official bodies that license instructors. Best to keep
official instruction between the two people who are actually in the
glider. That was the point of my disclaimer. For instance, if I had
suggested that the best advice when you find yourself flying on tow in
turbulent conditions is to pull the speedbrakes all the way ou. What
if the the unsuspecting student just happened to try the advice on his
next flight - who would be accountable? Not me - I'm not even licensed
to instruct. The CFI? He was just taken totally by surprise. The
student? Maybe - he took instruction over the Internet.

Should anyone decide they need to change instructors, that is still
between them and their old/new instructor. I'm also no that sure that
a r.a.s. thread is sufficient evidence to judge the competence of an
instructor - in the US there are official channels and processes for
judging such things. I guess it's fine to suggest someone take an
instructional flight or two from someone else to see if the chemistry
is better for learning, but calling someone incompetent or rotten
based on a post here that didn't even raise the issue in the first
place is a bit over the top.

9B